Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Those present should ensure that their phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even if they are on silent mode. Some housekeeping first, are the minutes of the meeting on 21 May agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Yuming Lian, Belvedere College, Dublin 1, Ms Naisha Adhikari, Coláiste na Mí, Johnstown, County Meath, Ms Aoibhínn Doyle, Ramsgrange Community College, Ramsgrange, County Wexford, who are all climate activists, Mr. Shari Irfan, president of the Irish Second-Level Students Union, ISSU, and Ms Colette Murphy, vice president for welfare, from the Union of Students in Ireland, USI. To the Public Gallery, I welcome Mr. Michael Grehan and Mr. Pádraig Swan, who are teachers in Belvedere College, Mr. Brendan Doyle, Ms Renhe Chu and Mr. Bijender Adhikari, who are parents, Ms. Maeve Richardson from the ISSU and Ms Kelda MacManus from the USI.

The witnesses are here to discuss climate action and sustainable development education in post-primary and tertiary education. The format of the meeting will be that I will invite the witnesses to make brief opening statements in the following order: Mr. Lian; Mr. Irfan; Ms. Murphy; Ms Adhikari; and Ms Doyle. Mr. Lian, Ms Doyle and Ms Adhikari will have three minutes each and Mr. Irfan and Ms Murphy will have five minutes each. The opening statements will be followed by questions from the committee members. Each member has a six-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Mr. Lian may begin. He will be followed by the other witnesses in the order I outlined.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

Yuming is ainm dom. I thank the Chair and the members of the committee for the invitation to appear here today. I thank the committee for allowing us the chance to express our opinions about climate action education. The latter is a vital subject for today's world, yet one that is frequently overlooked. We commend the committee on its progress in the new leaving certificate course on climate action and sustainable development. We wish to express our opinions about how the climate crisis can be resolved much more efficiently through education in the areas of innovation, adaptation and implementation. I will be covering the topic of innovation, Ms Adhikari will cover adaptation and Ms Doyle will cover implementation.

Innovation is defined as making changes in something established. While innovative ways to teach climate action education have been slowly introduced, we feel that the speed at which it is happening is not sufficient to combat the current crisis. By continuing at this linear speed, we, the younger population of Ireland, will be underprepared to combat the exponential threat that is climate change. Climate change will not wait for us to catch up. It will not give us the luxury of time. However, climate change certainly will be the end of life as we know it.

Strength in numbers is what we believe in. Unity is what we believe in. By making climate action education available for all primary and post-primary education centres throughout Ireland, young people will benefit from reduced climate anxiety and improved resilience and will be united against this climate crisis. Through education, we can impact the younger generation at their most impressionable age to leave a permanent, positive impact for this generation and those to come. Do not count the minutes, but make the minutes count. Tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today.

Faigheann cos ar siúl rud nach bhfaigheann cos ina cónaí. Go raibh míle maith ag an gcoiste.

Ms Naisha Adhikari:

I thank the committee for the wonderful opportunity of speaking here. My name is Naisha Adhikari and as Mr. Lian said, I will be covering the topic of adaption, which is necessary in the context of the current climate crisis.

Adaption, as defined by the Cambridge Dictionary, is the process of changing to suit different conditions. It is by far one of the most key components in ensuring the welfare and survival of the future generations. The story of this world is destructively beautiful and has been told over many centuries. However, if we do not adapt to overcome what seems like the most major hurdle in the 21st century, there may be no one left to cherish the story of this world. This would be devastating, especially when one considers how far we have come as a civilisation.

In the submission we made, I discuss how and why we will need to tailor our education specifically to the areas we, as students, reside in for maximum efficiency. We will need appropriate funding for continuous professional development, CPD, and hold the attention of current and future students alike. I look forward to discussing this matter further and to answering any questions the committee may have.

As a favourite author of mine once wrote, every human is a disaster for each other. I would like to add a more positive twist to this, namely every human may be a disaster for each other but when we set aside our differences and stand together to focus on a collective incentive, we become something that transcends any problem we could ever face.

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to appear here today. My name is Aoibhínn Doyle. I will be talking about the importance of the effective implementation of climate action education.

Implementation, by dictionary definition, is the process of putting a decision or plan into effect. In other words, execution. It can often be summarised by that key term. Although creativity, adaptability and innovation are extremely important when it comes to climate action education, it goes hand-in-hand with the implementation of the course, which is why it is so vital that this subject is not only innovative but also effective in its execution.

Climate change is a challenge that we as young people often feel we face alone. That feeds into the disconnect and hopelessness that many young people feel about this issue. According to the Psychological Society of Ireland, one of the main things that we can do to reduce climate anxiety among young people is to educate and raise awareness about this issue. This can be done through climate action education in schools. Currently, there is only a basic concept of climate action education in schools and even still, many of my peers still express their frustration over multinational corporations' lack of accountability on this issue. This proves that through further climate action education, students will be equipped to have their voices heard. On this issue, we recommend that a task force which would connect students to the business community be established in order that MNCs can be actively questioned on this issue.

In a survey of 1,053 participants conducted by ECO-UNESCO Ireland in 2022, 84% of young people said that they are involved or wish to be involved with climate action, 34% say they do not have enough knowledge on this issue and 32% stated that they do no have enough skills in relation to climate change.

Ralph Ellison said that education is all a matter of building bridges, and with this in mind we recommend the following actions be taken. A circular mandating that all primary, post-primary and education centres appoint climate action officers who would have a voice on both the student councils and boards of management of their schools should be issued. We also recommend educating students about climate change through climate action education in schools. We further recommend bridging the gap between students and their local representatives, which can be done through climate action education and schools, respectively. I thank the committee.

Mr. Shari Irfan:

Is mise an t-uachatarán ar Aontas Daltaí Iar-Bhunscoile na hÉireann, ISSU. I thank the committee for once again inviting me to speak before it today. The ISSU is fully committed to working alongside all stakeholders to find solutions to the issues which students face. It is in this spirit that I speak before the committee today. Although there is a lack of formal education around it, I know, from talking to our membership across the country, that students have risen up to the challenge and established green schools committees in their schools. They have taken initiative on their own to secure their own future because, simply put, students care about climate change. They care about their future.

The ISSU is fully in favour of the new senior cycle subject called climate action and sustainable development. As members of this committee are aware, it is due to be rolled out in the 2025 to 2026 school year. This marks a pivotal point in the education sector with students having subject options available to them which are relevant to what is happening around them. In my capacity as uachtarán of the ISSU, I sit on the council of members for the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. Through my seat, I was able to input into the curriculum development for climate action and sustainable development. Within the subject implementation, we were proud to ensure that the power of student voice was included. Much of this conversation was propelled by young student activists from the likes of the Friday for Future movement, bringing our education system into the 21st century. This conversation has been propelled because young people are concerned for the future of the world.

From my engagements with the Department of Education, I am aware there are genuine challenges around the roll out for this new senior cycle subject, with schools showing a slight hesitation in taking it on. This, of course, is natural with these new subjects being rolled out. What concerns students at the moment is the question of who is going to teach the new subject as schools struggle with teacher recruitment and retention.

As members of the committee all know, climate action and sustainable development education in primary and post-primary schools and tertiary education often takes place in non-formal settings beyond the classroom. We need to ensure the knowledge and resources are in place to support the green-schools committees and student councils within our schools. Not only do these student-led bodies ensure our education system is as sustainable as it can be, but they give the opportunities for future leaders to grow and develop. We need to ensure the correct supports are in place to support programmes like the green flag programme and the national bike week. Not only have we seen student councils and green schools committees take part in direct action such as protests and also in supporting their local community, but many have organised vintage fairs, swap shops and fought to have recycling and compost bins in their schools. These initiatives not only better the environment but create engaged and conscious citizens.

I am proud to say that the ISSU held its annual event called Debate Your Decision Makers. For the past two years, it has been held in the Mansion House. Students from across the country are invited to sit at a round table with politicians and decision-makers. This event would not be possible without the education in sustainable development, ESD, fund we receive from the Department of Education. Students have the opportunity to debate and to ask these decision-makers questions to hold them accountable to their promises. This grant has allowed us the opportunity to develop resources to roll out to student councils on how to be more sustainable. This grant has also supported many non-governmental organisations, and more, to implement actions for our country. Funding like the ESD grant remains in place and we can continue to grow to further our understanding in this area. That is the way to move forward to give meaningful space to young people in rooms where decisions are being made and where the influence lies. It is important we work on this together, regardless of our age.

It is crucial that our climate discussions are practical and reach across all aspects of the curriculum, weaving in discussions about the importance of a circular economy, whether that is with students studying business who need to understand that uncapped consumptions are not an option or students in engineering learning how to make repairs rather than throwing things away. Climate action and sustainable development cannot just exist as a stand-alone subject. It must be a crucial part of all aspects of our lives. We must acknowledge climate discussions can have a profound impact on students in our education system. The planet is in crisis and that can be hard for many. We must be prepared for the impact of eco-grief which already grips many today. Our schools and guidance counsellors must be resourced to deal with this. I thank the committee for the opportunity again and I look forward to answering any questions.

Ms Colette Murphy:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to speak on behalf of Union of Students in Ireland, USI, on climate action and sustainable development. The Union of Students in Ireland, Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn, was founded in 1959 and, through our member students’ unions, represents 374,000 students in colleges and universities around the island of Ireland.

USI policy on all issues, including climate action and sustainable development, is developed and voted on by students from our member students' unions.

As society continues to respond inadequately to the increasingly serious impact of climate change, students are well aware that it is young people who will see the worst consequences of a slow societal response. Action is needed now to prevent the most severe effects of climate change from taking place.

Ireland's goal to halve emissions by 2030 and reach net zero not later than 2050 can only be achieved through progressive ambitious policies and, most importantly, action. Third level institutions need to be leaders in progressing this change. The USI believes that every third level institution in Ireland should review the environmental impact of the investment portfolios they have and the external relationships they have with other organisations. They must also support the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Another core aspect of moving to a just transition to net zero is ensuring that education for sustainable development is embedded in the curriculum in third level institutions. If done well, there is enormous potential for HEIs to positively impact society's move to net zero through the education of their students.

In terms of student representation and collaboration, students are pivotal stakeholders in higher education and climate change, and it is crucial that student voices are valued and well represented in decision-making processes that shape our future. There are many successes around the country where students have been key to climate action on their own campuses, which I will now highlight. Student unions have introduced vape bins to ensure the proper disposal of batteries. They have introduced sustainable food pantries to reduce food waste. They have invested in supplies of sustainable period products. They have participated in community litter pick-ups, such as the beach clean-ups by University of Galway Students Union. The on-campus edible food garden in Maynooth was done by Green Campus in collaboration with students. Campus clothes-swap and thrifting pop-ups in Maynooth and DCU are thriving. Many student unions, such as MTU Kerry, have provided KeepCups to replace single-use items. Of note is that UCC Students Union launched a petition in 2018 which got more than 8,000 signatures to lobby the college to make UCC a single-use-plastic-free campus by 2023. This has been successfully implemented and is a fantastic example of students effectively taking action to improve the carbon footprint of their college.

In terms of student accommodation and transport, staff and students commuting to college is one of the largest contributors to an institution's carbon footprint. As I am sure members are all well aware, due to the lack of affordable student accommodation near campuses, students often commute long distances to their HEIs. In 2022, the mean commuting time for those living with their parents during term time was 52 minutes, whereas those in student accommodation had a mean commuting time of 17 minutes. Unfortunately, many are left with no option but to commute by car, due to poor public transport in their areas. We would like to see the introduction of a cycle-to-college initiative, like the bike to work scheme to offset the expense of buying a bike and necessary accessories. Additionally, free public transport for students would further incentivise public transport as a low-carbon alternative to driving. Like many of the problems in the third level sector, the main solution to carbon emissions in third level institutions is interlinked with the student accommodation crisis.

To summarise our recommendations, we recommend achieving net zero and fossil fuel divestment and for institutions to support the implementation of such a strategy. We call for education for sustainable development to be embedded in the curriculum. Student representation and collaboration should be a core part of our work. Affordable accommodation and transport should be provided to all students. I again thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. We look forward to questions from members.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the witnesses very much. The first member to speak is Deputy Clarke. She will be followed by Senator Malcolm Byrne. She has six minutes.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses who are here this morning. They are always most welcome to the committee. Their opinions are very much valued, as is their input.

I will start with Mr. Irfan. I have two specific questions for him and then I have one that the panel might like to take. He spoke of eco-grief in his opening statement. Could he give the committee a better understanding of what that looks like for students at the moment, and what supports might be available in schools for them?

My second question relates to the leaving certificate climate action and sustainable development curriculum.

I know Mr. Irfan said in his opening statement that he is a member of the council of the NCCA. Does he think that the current curriculum as proposed is sufficient? What does he think the uptake of that subject will be among students?

Mr. Shari Irfan:

I thank the Deputy for her question. Eco-grief is not something that every age group faces; it seems to be particularly relevant to young people at the moment. The best way I can describe it is as being a very doom and gloom feeling. We sit and wonder, "Will I ever have a family? Will I ever have a home? Will I have a life?" What we are seeing on the news is landfills, houses being burnt down, fires all around and the climate changing. It affects people we may know. Young people are sitting there thinking, "That is going to be my life." All the figures currently show that Ireland is in a unique position. We are going to be affected by it but we are quite lucky because developed nations are not really affected to the same extent as developing nations. That is where eco-grief comes from. Young people sit and wonder, "What will my life look like as this continues?"

As for the supports in place, as I have said, guidance counsellors are the key people who should be there to deal with this. Not every school has a guidance counsellor, however. Not every school has a guidance counsellor who is trained to deal with this. This is a big discussion about resources and making sure that guidance counsellors are in schools at a ratio proportionate to the population, as well as making sure they have the right skills and resources to be able to deal with these issues.

Climate action and sustainable development is a subject in itself. I sit on the council of members of the NCCA, as well as on forums within the Department of Education. As students, we have had a very active input into curriculum development on that particular subject. We are happy with how it is and believe it touches on the most key areas. We are very proud of our part in the implementation relating to student participation. The curriculum actively teaches young people to be proactive. It teaches them how to protest, organise and make their voices heard. For the most part we are satisfied, but I am concerned about the roll-out. I am aware from my engagements with the Department of Education that schools are hesitant about taking on the subject. That is natural with new subjects coming in, but we also have to keep in mind that it is a new subject. Not every school is going to have the resources required. We are struggling with the teacher retention and recruitment crisis at the moment. How are we going to bring in teachers to teach that particular subject?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Murphy touched on transport as being a big factor for the students she works with. The need for access to public transport is across the board when it comes to all education, even tertiary education. While we have the likes of green flags and bike to school week, how do we further develop these initiatives and embed them in school communities? Why are we telling young people to cycle to school for a week and that is it? What is wrong with the rest of the weeks in the school year? What it says to me is that parents and school communities are not confident in the safety aspect of asking their students to do that. I have been asked to participate in escorting children to school on bikes because of the concerns that are there. That is replicated throughout the country. From what our witnesses are hearing from the students they represent, how confident are student communities in walking to school if they are within a reasonable distance or using a bike or other form of active travel to get to school?

Ms Colette Murphy:

Students who have come to major towns and cities and have moved into student accommodation are generally located close to campus. It is a perfect opportunity for universities and the Department to roll out a cycle to college scheme. If students starting college are supported to get into the habit of cycling to college, that is a habit they can build for life. If they instead start driving or using public transport, their carbon footprint will be a lot higher. If students move to a new place and form that habit, it will be a lot more difficult to break. The Deputy mentioned the cycle to school initiatives. One-week initiatives are tokenistic, but they work. A lot of colleges organise bike clinics, which really work. I would like to see them in every institution in the country. They encourage students to maintain their bikes. It would be great to have the introduction of a scheme to encourage people to use bikes in the first place.

Obviously, there is a bike to work scheme but not everyone is working when they start college at 18. It would help with that transition. In addition, it would be of assistance if public transport were free of charge because it would be further incentive-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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Or just to have some public transport. That would be nice.

Ms Colette Murphy:

Exactly. Provision is quite scattered throughout the country.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Senator Byrne is next. He will be followed by Deputy Farrell.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for their input. I might touch on the question of the specific subjects of climate and sustainable development. Within higher education, there are very specific courses that look at sustainable development. Would it be better to have specific subjects looking at those issues or should these themes underpin every aspect of our education system? Whoever wants to do so can to take that question.

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

It needs to be a specific climate action education course. One of our main points that we wish to get across is to make this a full subject and course, not just at leaving certificate level but also at junior certificate level, as part of a non-examination approach. We surveyed and had a focus group with teachers from our respective schools. They unanimously agreed that climate action education should be implemented at secondary and post-primary level. Some of the points made are that teachers need to have a strong understanding of the science behind climate change and need to be prepared to address students' emotions related to the topic, which could also be done through CPD that is accessible. We believe that CPD would be really useful for teachers because this issue is very current.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Irfan might want to come in on this, but where we will get the teachers to do this? Who is going to provide this education?

Mr. Shari Irfan:

I cannot answer as to where we will get the teachers, but I do know there is a crisis at the moment within schools. One of the conversations that I have had related to how we are going to get these teachers in. It will end up being someone internally from the school. Currently, there is no course by means of which student teachers are being prepared to teach this particular subject. That means that a principal will usually look internally, pick someone and get them to teach the subject. The teacher obviously needs to have training in the subject to be able to teach it effectively, especially since it is being graded at a senior cycle level. That is going to be a particular concern because there is an issue within schools, particularly secondary schools, where people who are not trained to teach that subject are teaching it.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Murphy is right about many of the initiatives that students have undertaken. I compliment them on that. I would argue that it should be students and young people should be educating older generations far more about the need for climate action and sustainability development. I do not doubt the importance of peer education or younger people mentoring older people on some of these matters. I might throw one challenge in Ms Murphy's direction. One of the challenges now in almost all higher education and university campuses relates to is parking. It is generally not the staff who are dominating the car parks; it is the students. Is there more of a challenge now that students have adopted far more of a car culture. There is certain evidence of this at second level as well. Some of our second level colleagues might also want to comment on that.

Ms Colette Murphy:

The cost of driving for a young person is incredibly expensive. To be honest, most people do not want to drive unless they need to because it is very expensive. Many students living in urban areas do not drive or do not have their own cars. They may have a licence and may use their parents' cars or whatever. For students living in rural areas, the public transport infrastructure is not available. In the past, many students in rural areas would have moved to towns and cities, but the cost and lack of availability of accommodation has had a massive impact in that regard. The reality is that many students are driving but that is because there is no other option for them. It has been easier for staff to reduce their carbon footprint in that sense because they generally live closer to where they are working, whereas students often have two-hour commutes, etc.

It is harder from that perspective. Generally, it will be found that students who are living in urban areas are not driving to the same extent at all.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask this final question, to any of the witnesses who want to take it up, around the message? Students and young people for the most part are very strongly convinced around the need for climate action and to tackle the biodiversity crisis. I think the challenge is sometimes that it is certain older generations who may need educating. I would even say that within these Houses, there are certain voices that continue to be climate sceptic. Indeed, they would undermine some of the climate efforts that are being made.

Would the witnesses recommend a programme of climate education for TDs and Senators? What message would they have for some of those who are dismissive of a lot of the concerns they have validly raised?

Mr. Yuming Lian:

Climate action education should definitely be widespread. No matter whether one is a Senator or a cleaner or no matter what one is, I think one should be educated about the future. While I cannot really represent the views of the older generation, other than the teachers who we interviewed, we could take the school and imagine it as Dáil Éireann. It should be whole school based and no matter what subject or no matter what committee, it should always be there. No matter what someone learns, it will never be learned for nothing. It will always be useful.

Mr. Shari Irfan:

I would just say as a general point, when talking about climate change, one should focus on the human aspect of it. Obviously, there are a lot of stats around it. They are very concerning. They show the world is tearing itself apart. However, if one focuses on the human argument and if the facts are humanised and people are made to realise that this is not something that is only going to affect them, even though they will be gone in a couple of decades, and that it will affect their children and grandchildren, when stuff like that is put into that sort of perspective, people tend to care about it a little more.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in front of the committee. I apologise that I missed some of the opening statements because there was a crash on my journey up here. Hopefully, everybody involved in the crash is okay. I have obviously looked at the opening statements. I am going to try to ask a question to each of the groupings if time allows. I might start with Ms Murphy if that is okay.

It is in relation to that equivalent of the bike to work scheme. I think that is a really interesting proposal. I am just wondering what level of analysis or policy development has been done in relation to that at this point? Something like bike clinics were mentioned, were they? Is something like that in a lot of universities? Could Ms Murphy touch on exactly what they are? I definitely would agree with her. For some people, they have no choice but to drive at this moment at time, especially given the incredibly huge cost of trying to rent. Could she touch on those two things if possible?

Ms Colette Murphy:

Yes. Could the Deputy repeat the second part of the question?

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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The second part was about what exactly the bike clinics are.

Ms Colette Murphy:

Some campuses have implemented bike clinics as part of their green campus initiative. Essentially, a bike can get serviced or maintained. The gardaí can come in and write the number on the bike as well, so if it goes missing or gets stolen, it is identifiable. It is done for free in some third level institutions. I know DCU is very good at it and has one every week during semester time. It is quite popular with students and staff. At the end of the day, just getting more people cycling to college is the first thing. There will be more uptake from that.

In terms of the policy development of the cycle to college scheme, there has not really been any uptake from anyone on it.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I mean from USI, sorry.

Ms Colette Murphy:

In one or two other European countries, something similar has been done, I think. We would like to see something similar done here. The main ask is that it be a reduction in cost. The cost of the accessories and of purchasing a bike is incredibly expensive. The difference with the cycle to work scheme is that it is paid back over the year with one's salary.

Our view on how effective it would be is if it were offered to students from September, or even in their inductions, and the messaging through the leaflets and emails they are sent before even attending college, there would then be a lot of uptake. It is hard to do policy analysis on it because it is more of a future thing that has not been done here previously. It is something we would like to see done, however.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Great, it sounds very good. As there are time limitations, I will move on to Mr. Irfan. I welcome him back. He is nearly a regular visitor at this stage. On the subject of climate action and sustainable development he mentioned, when he responded to Deputy Clarke he referenced it involves organising, campaigning and protesting. As somebody who has been doing that for the past 20 years, I know it involves very good, practical skills, no matter what you are doing. If you can organise a good protest, you will know how to organise pretty much everything else. Will Mr. Irfan talk a little more on the themes that will be touched on? I totally take on board what he said. It is hard for teachers to bring on new subjects and all that kind of thing, but it is quite an exciting subject.

Mr. Shari Irfan:

I completely agree. It is an incredibly exciting subject. I had a very active role in making sure it turned out the way it did. We are very happy as an organisation and a union about it.

To the point about teaching students how to organise and be aware of what is happening around them, that is an amazing skill for a young person to have. I only got my organisational skills when I joined the ISSU because we learned how to organise protests, and through that how to organise events. Adding that to the curriculum is fantastic. The way it will be done is students will study different movements. They will see who the key people were, how they did what they did, and what the message was. That will be very effective for young people in their student council when they go to their board of management with an issue.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. It gives people a level of confidence, which is so important, when they advocate for themselves and others in life in general. That is very interesting.

Due to time limitations, I will move on to Ms Adhikari, Mr. Lian and Ms Doyle. In their collaborative opening statement, for which, unfortunately, I was not present, they mentioned the better representation of innovation in the school curriculum. That is quite an interesting concept. It might be something they can add a little to. What do they see could be brought forward? They all come from different schools. It would also be interesting to hear what they think works well in their respective schools that could be brought out more widely. This a good platform to bring that.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

Ms Doyle and I conducted a joint survey of younger students. Our schools implement a climate action course. When we quizzed the very specific group in the class, they indicated that outdoor action classes engaged them a lot more than indoor lessons. While indoor lessons are important, judging from the statistics, 94% of people would rather be out there and taking action because they would be reassured they are making a positive impact on the key issue.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That makes sense.

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

As Mr. Lian said, he and I come from very different schools. His school is in a more urban area whereas mine is in rural Wexford. What I found fascinating and interesting about that, however, is a lot of the results were quite similar. Many students are very positive. They want to take a very proactive approach. There were mentions of transport in that regard, including more initiatives for sustainable transport and, as I mentioned, the need to connect young people like us to leaders such as the Deputy. Bridging that gap is so important. Not many people from a rural DEIS school, such as the one I attend, have the opportunity to talk and speak with members today. Bridging those gaps, even within the county or council, is so important and something we could explore within this subject and topic.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.

Ms Naisha Adhikari:

I will add a little. We see that many students would prefer to do more things outside. If we plan more events to get students hands-on involved practically, they would enjoy that much more and would pay a lot more attention. We could organise cleaning events and take trips to museums. We could have practical lessons. When there are, we will find that students will pay a lot more attention.

Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I am from Galway city and we have beach clean-ups and we can see the practical impact of their activism.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for their very inspiring opening statements. One of the most unfair aspects of climate change is that it is asymmetric. The people most responsible for it are not the people who bear the greatest consequences. That is both geographical and generational. Often people who are the root cause of climate change are people who look like me and are in their mid- to late forties - I am being generous to myself - and in the Western world. The consequences are greatest in the future - in your futures - and geographically in the developing world. Mr. Irfan said that eco grief or eco anxiety is felt by one generation more than others; I slightly disagree with him on that. Eco anxiety or eco grief is one of the reasons I am here - because I have my own kids and can see an extra 40 years into the future. That is what activated me politically a few years ago.

I was struck by a phrase from the Young Greens recently that I had not heard before. They said, "If you're not at the table, you're on the menu." I was also struck by what Ms Doyle said about capacity building and making sure that the voice of younger people is actually heard in the room and at the table. The capacity piece is critical. As she said, not everybody has the opportunity to come to an Oireachtas joint committee and not everybody is able to handle it as the five witnesses present today have. I am sure that did not happen by accident. I am sure considerable preparation went in ahead of their attending today's committee meeting. How can we do that capacity-building piece? Maybe this curriculum subject is part of it. Where are the really meaningful opportunities to insert younger people's voices? I am concerned that we get a box-ticking exercise with people saying, "We had the youth voice in. Box ticked. Move on." I am not sure if that translates into action, be it in the council chamber, the national Parliament or the third level institution. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

I know one of Ms Murphy's core recommendations relates to fossil fuel divestment. I praise the Trinity students on their big win. It was a real case of old-school activism and was inspiring to see. They got active, were visible and had a massive win. It was done in a way that forced them to be heard.

My second question is on the subject. One of my concerns is that it is segmented out. Senator Byrne spoke a bit about this. It becomes something that the climate-interested students go and do while the other students do German or whatever other subjects might be on at the time. I worry that by segmenting it out we do not actually do that capacity-building piece among the general student population that we need to do.

I will recap because I wandered a bit. What should capacity-building look like among students? Where do we need to concentrate to ensure young people's voices are heard in a meaningful way and not just as window dressing? Is there a concern that by segmenting it out, we give more of that eco anxiety to the kids who are already suffering from it while not actually building a broad base?

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

I will answer the first question about building capacity. We had many proposals on our climate action education course. I would love to see that included within the course and to be given those opportunities. I will give the example of something similar that we did in my school. We were given the opportunity to visit Wexford County Council where we discussed loads of economic plans.

They explained the work they do. When we were there, we realised that they have this plan to build up Wexford and to build this new hub, yet we were confused around the sustainability aspect, especially as there was plan to put a marine institute there. The sustainability was a bit off. We were concerned about that. It is important to bring up stuff like that and those conversations.

The capacity could be in the classroom by having it as part of the curriculum. There could be a mandatory trip to the local authority. It does not necessarily have to be in the Oireachtas but more in the local constituency. It would be good to have funding for transport there and back as well because many schools are in rural areas or outreach areas.

Even if you are not confident enough to speak up in person, there are lots of other things that you can do to help and still be engaged in making the change. A couple of students could be appointed as climate action officers, as I suggested in my opening statement. They could go on then to represent their school. A climate action education course would be a great way to open that door for people. Some 72% of students indicated that they have personally taken action in the past six months to help climate change and 91% of Irish students say that it is important for climate change and environmental issues to be a focus area. There obviously is a great interest there. It is more about giving people those opportunities to be more involved within their constituency.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

To come in on the Deputy's second question about segmenting it and Ms Doyle's point about having the door open for students and letting them be prepared to question the leaders of the country, according to assets.gov.ie, 40 schools will be selected to be in phase one, which is the 2025-26 academic year, of introducing climate action and sustainable development. The only statistics I could find, which are from 2019, state that there was a total of 722 secondary schools in Ireland. This means that, at most, less than 6% of secondary schools will have the subject in their curriculum in 2025, at the earliest . It is less a question of segmenting it to those who are interested and more a question of getting it rolled out to the wider public.

Ms Colette Murphy:

On the third-level aspect of the question about what actions can be taken on campuses, it is in the Department's education for sustainable development implement plan for 2022 to 2026 that students can be empowered to do student-led campaigns. I am not aware of any actions that have come out of that yet but if it was possible for funding to be allocated, for example, small funding pots to be given to students, they could take sustainable actions on their campuses. Often it is led by green campus and there is student representation on green campus, but if it was flipped for student-led action, it would be a lot more empowering and people would be able to get involved. That could be integrated into the curriculum as well. If, for example, a lecturer wanted to do a module on sustainability or integrate it into the course, he or she could apply to the fund and take money from it to do that.

In regards to the curriculum, a fantastic development is that there is now a course in second level which is absolutely brilliant, but in third level, it is very segmented. There is nothing across the board being done for sustainable education in third level. There are some good initiatives. Many colleges have reviewed their curriculums and they are looking to see. The Deputy asked if it is better to have one module or to integrate across the board. Our perspective would be that it is good to do both in tandem because the benefit you get from having a separate subject in second level or from having a separate module in third level is that it will be rolled out. It is quicker to roll out than trying to integrate it into other subjects or modules because there are a lot of barriers to that. To try to focus on the sustainable development goals in some modules, such as engineering modules, is relevant, but it can be difficult to integrate in other courses.

It is really just happening in certain sections of colleges and it is not possible to integrate it across all courses. Additionally, lecturers must be brought up to speed on the sustainable development goals. This is happening, then. Where we need to move ahead is that it should be expanded across all courses. It is taking time, though, and this is understandable. In the meantime, it would be good to also have a module on this topic too.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Murphy. I call Deputy O'Callaghan.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the students and guests for coming before the committee today. Starting with Mr. Irfan, I would have thought it was a very positive development that we are going to have a separate climate action and sustainable development course at senior cycle. Does he agree with me that there are many younger people who are interested in climate action and the climate crisis and that this course will give them an opportunity, I suppose, to manifest that interest and to engage with the topic on an educational basis?

Mr. Shari Irfan:

Well, of course, because it allows students with that particular interest to pursue it. It also makes the whole experience of senior cycle much better because we are not pushing students down the path of doing something they do not want to study.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Shari Irfan:

Young people who study climate action and sustainable development and for whom this turns out to be a subject they take a particular interest in will then want to go and pursue the subject further and study it in college. This approach, therefore, allows for more conscious and aware young people who go into college and the working world aware of sustainability and how this issue interacts with their lives.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Turning to Ms Adhikari, what would she like to see being covered in this course? I do not know if she has had an opportunity to engage with the Department in respect of the course, but even if she has not, what elements of the whole issue of climate action and sustainable development would she like to see included in the course?

Ms Naisha Adhikari:

I would like to see many different things included in the course. Some of these would include having our teachers kept up to speed because no one will learn anything if they do not know what they are talking about. Many students also believe that climate action does affect their everyday lives a great deal. Some 82% of students agree with this statement. We believe, therefore, that this material should be implemented slowly into other subjects. This would include history, where we can see how our world has changed and how science, technology, engineering and technology have moved forward from the time of the Iron Age.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, yes.

Ms Naisha Adhikari:

We would also like to see many more trips because students' attention is really grabbed when they are brought to see what happens and how they affect the world around them.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Adhikari. Moving to Mr. Lian, I am conscious that putting a course on the secondary-cycle level is not just for the purposes of something the State thinks is civically important, although it is. Obviously, the course must also be examined, marked and assessed. It is a serious subject, so we would want to ensure it is properly appraised by markers. Would he view this as being a scientific subject or a civic subject? How would he categorise it? What would he like to see covered in the course and how would he like to see it examined?

Mr. Yuming Lian:

We must take into account that junior certificate and leaving certificate students are already under a lot of stress; "brú damanta", as my Irish teacher likes to put it.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Faoi bhrú.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

Assessment is important. This is how we get students to memorise and study the notes.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

There is definitely a lot of interest in the course. In a survey undertaken by The Irish Times, 70% of students used deeply negative words to describe it but 91% of students agreed that climate change and environmental issues should be a key area of focus in the Irish schools system.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Okay.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

I would also love to see a much heavier emphasis placed on activism and a key part of the course being a requirement for students to go out and participate in a protest like the Fridays for Future activity.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

I did this when I was in school and it was just such an eye-opening experience to see how many other people cared about this issue.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Right. Okay.

Mr. Yuming Lian:

I think it relieves a lot of stress for students.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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In a query for Ms Doyle, I suppose, ultimately, when we examine the detail of climate change and the climate crisis, we can see that, at its heart, scientific, observable changes are happening.

How prominent should the academic and scientific study of it be in the course? With the greatest respect, it cannot just be about activism. If we have a leaving certificate course that is just about activism, everybody will want to do it and it will be impossible to mark. What should be the scientific core of it?

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

We touch on many of the scientific aspects in subjects such as geography and science. Those subjects are mandatory in many schools. Many students have knowledge about it. Some of the Deputy's colleagues were saying it really should be us teaching the teachers. It is very important that there is good education of certain aspects across the board. Climate action education should include scientific terms and what is happening, but, in general, I do not think that is the real issue. The issue is to empower young people and all generations to take action and see the importance of it, specifically on climate change. Deputy O'Callaghan is saying that the subject would just be activism, but it would be activism in respect of climate change.

I want to stress the importance of the correct implementation. One teacher who took part in the survey said that the content needs to be appropriate and delivered at the right level. The teacher also said that students do not want to watch webinars of experts speaking, and that how it is delivered will determine the success of getting the message across to the students. It is important that students know some information with regard to assessment but what is very important is that they feel impassioned about it. If students do not feel impassioned and do not like the subject they are less likely to take in the information. It has to be engaging and interesting for all students.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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My next question is for Ms Murphy. It is on the third level sector, in respect of which she has expertise. I am surprised there are not specific subjects that correspond with the proposed climate action and sustainable development course. Does Ms Murphy think it is too disparate at third level? Do we need more individual courses that focus on this issue?

Ms Colette Murphy:

There are individual courses. To be fair, many universities have taken initiatives in rolling them out. DCU, Trinity College and other universities have been rolling them out, which is very good to see. The goal of education for sustainable development is that every person should leave third level education with an understanding of sustainable development. We know that once people enter the workforce it is a buzzword. It is something that is very important for people to understand, whether they become politicians, engineers or psychologists. It is relevant to every discipline and it should be integrated into the curriculum.

To be fair, universities have been making headway on it but there is a very slow roll-out and it is only reaching a certain cohort of students. Normally it is rolled out in the courses where it is most obvious. For social science it is heavily based on communication around climate science. It is relevant to science courses and teacher education. It is relevant to absolutely everybody and it need to be embedded in the curriculum. This year, a movement has started among lecturers and students to try to have modules in order that all undergraduate students will do a specific module on sustainable development. We are in favour of this, as well as integrating it throughout the curriculum in various courses.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have number of questions. The findings in the survey show a large number of initiatives in primary schools. There is the Green Flag initiative and a range of other initiatives. Some primary schools have nature walks, nature gardens and gardening in general. I find this often falls off when it comes to second-level education. On foot of the findings in Belvedere College, are people more aware about the climate in primary school? Are there far more initiatives at that level than in secondary schools? With regard to the findings from the survey, how can the committee help to develop a pilot or policy change for the Department of Education or other Departments to engage with younger people?

Mr. Yuming Lian:

When one says there are fewer initiatives once one goes into secondary school, one is always pointing it at possibly the majority or the minority in each case, but it is never the same for every single school. From the point of view of our teachers, one of them actually said that when people feel ownership, they are more likely to sustain the positive changes. That is then tying into the other point that how it is delivered will determine the success and the message getting across to students. The content needs to be implemented at the correct level and students do not want to watch experts talking about it on a webinar for three hours because our attention spans are just not there.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Ms Doyle comes from a rural part of County Wexford which I am very aware of. I have no doubt the students in Ramsgrange Community School are a diverse group of people, as I have no doubt is the case in every secondary school across the country. Would Ms Doyle come across many students questioning her beliefs or policy thinking on climate change? Senator Malcolm Byrne spoke about climate change deniers or sceptics. I have no doubt those in Ms Doyle's school probably come from a typical rural and farming background. I am not picking on people involved in farming and agriculture here but they have some very strong views on climate change and on the direction the Government is taking in regard to the changes we have had to implement over the past number of years, such as the big changes they have had to make in the agricultural industry and so forth, as have people in general. I am sure one of the biggest challenges for Ramsgrange Community School, which is a rural school, is the number of students driving their own cars to the school, parking and so forth. That is an issue in many secondary schools where they cannot provide parking for secondary students. What is Ms Doyle's experience of dealing with other students and bringing them around to her way of thinking and everything in that respect?

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

With many of our students, who are the next generation, even if they are from farming backgrounds, they would be in agreement that things need to change and get better. Sometimes the blame is put on farmers. Many people from farming backgrounds can have negative views about climate activists. This is because they are being cut down whereas multinational corporations, in their opinion, are not being cut down enough and are not being held accountable as much as they are. It is basically due to a lack of support in this new transition process which causes a great deal of stress within the farming community. In my experience, it is a very much like attack versus attack. Many members of that community might feel they are being attacked and all of the blame is being put on them when they have a role to play, but their role is not the only one. It is not just them in that there are other companies and multinational corporations.

I am from a rural area but what I have experienced is more of a hopelessness and a disconnect, in that it is all happening in Dublin and everywhere else. Where we are is a little bit secluded from some things. It is about the importance of ensuring that this is possible and achievable and many people in my experience, especially in my year, would be willing to be involved in climate action education and feel impassioned about this subject but they just do not see ways in which they can effectively make a change.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Following up on that, is Ms Murphy from a rural part of Ireland and where is she from?

Ms Colette Murphy:

I am from Dublin.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Okay, Ms Murphy is from Dublin. I presume none of the rest of our guests are from rural Ireland and are from urban centres. If Ms Doyle takes County Wexford, we now have bus services from almost 85% of the villages in our county which operate four, five or six times a day going into the main town centres.

An awful lot of people are crying out for these services yet when you see the bus pulling up, there might be only two people on it and there could be six cars following the bus going into the urban centre. How do we convince people to use the bus rather than follow the bus into the town centre? All of us are talking about climate, as well as people shouting and roaring for all these services. I am only asking for the witnesses' opinion. We as politicians try to do it all the time and we succeed in some cases but in more cases, we do not. I find those of the younger generation are the same. They are quick to jump into a car as a person aged 40, 50 or 60. If we are not going to convince 21-, 22- and 23-year-olds to use bus services, it will be difficult. We all talk about how this is going to be a generational change but if it is to be a generational change, we should see people in their late teens not driving to school but, rather, using the school bus or other public transport that has been provided for them in rural areas. We should not see them jumping into the car. I know they cannot get a bus service everywhere. Public transport has improved majorly over the years but we only see the change in the urban centres; we do not see it in rural areas.

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

My local bus is from New Ross but I could not get a direct bus from New Ross to Dublin. I would have to get a bus from New Ross to Wexford town, get off and change to another bus. This costs a lot of money. When you add this up and you ask your parents for the money if you do not have it, it is as cheap to go in the car for affordability and handiness. Many parents have concerns about safety if it is their child's first time on that bus. Does the child know where to get off? Oftentimes, for people from rural areas, coming into an urban setting can be quite daunting. You think, "Okay, where do I get off? Where do I go now? I am lost." Making it more affordable would help. A lot of young people in urban areas might have a Leap card, which incentivises them to use public transport. Something similar to that for rural areas might be nice. Parents and students would be love see more public transport but it is not available.

My school has lots of private buses that deliver students to the school. Many students avail of these services and there are waiting lists for those buses because not everybody can get on them. As the school I attend is technically not my local school, I cannot avail of a bus so there is no bus provided. We had a private bus for a time but it was about €50 per week, which is a lot of money for my sister and I as we attend the same school. Making it affordable and a less daunting experience would help. It is about building those habits. Parents and students would be more incentivised to do it if it was made more affordable and there were more routes or more direct routes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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My next question is for Mr. Irfan and Ms Murphy. Regarding getting younger people involved, and we are talking about a generational change, Tidy Towns groups across Ireland do a fantastic job. They do a really good job in their local communities but one of the biggest challenges they have is encouraging younger people to participate. It does take time. It involves going out on Saturday or Sunday morning and weeknights doing things like picking up litter or cutting grass. I know we can say it is up to the council to do that but really it is not. It is up to local communities to have pride in their local towns and villages. Tidy Towns groups would say that getting younger people involved is the biggest challenge they face. When we see their annual awards every year, we can see that it is normally people over 40 or 50 and up to 60, 70 or 80 who are involved.

We may say that the vast majority of that generation of older people do not understand climate change but a huge number of them do understand it. They want change and are very much activists in their own local communities. How does one get younger people in their 20s and 30s involved in local communities, in parish communities, town communities and making their town a better place to live in, to grow up in, more environmentally friendly, and to bring their experience of climate change and everything like that to the table?

Ms Colette Murphy:

One incentive that really works with young people is when they are doing it with friends or with other young people. If there are Tidy Towns groups or local environmental action groups that want to get more people involved and want it to be more representative of the community as a whole then reaching out to students' unions or environmental societies on campuses would be a brilliant way to do that. There have been some really good examples of where this has worked. The University of Galway students' union does regular beach clean ups, which is brilliant. Back in September or October the whole town of Maynooth got an award and it was commented at the time that Maynooth is a student town. There is a stereotype that perhaps young people are not as passionate or as involved in local town tidy-up activities but actually Maynooth students are very involved in litter pick-ups after those big campus events. Students are involved in the clean-up afterwards. It is about reaching out to groups of young people that already exist and getting people who already care about environmental action and climate change. This is one of the core things that student unions do care about. There are also the environmental societies that exist on most campuses. That sort of cross-community collaboration in towns or cities where there are colleges or universities will be brilliant to see. There are great examples of it around the country. If anyone is interested in doing it, the local students' union would be more than willing to do some collaboration on it.

Mr. Shari Irfan:

As I mentioned, there are green schools committees within schools that take proactive action locally. Students in general are disenfranchised with politics and their county councils. They see them as these old institutions that have nothing to do with them. I believe that county councillors and local communities need to do a lot better in making young people care. Young people are not going to come to politicians when they are already looking at these institutions and feel disenfranchised as they are not representative of them. Part of that is campaigning and about communication around how do we make young people get involved. It is about going to get them where they are. They are in their green schools committees and if Tidy Towns were to target those green schools committees within schools they would have a much higher percentage of young people who are actively interested in climate action and sustainable development.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is an issue I have often thought about. We have a day for this and a day for the other or whatever the story is but to get young and older people involved, should there be a national clean-up day? There might be one already but if there is, it is badly promoted. On that day everybody could get out into their own local community - young and old - supported by Government, the Department of the environment and all local authorities, schools, primary schools, secondary schools and so on. People might say that cannot be done because of insurance or this or that. If you want to do it, it can be done. That is my motto in life. There is no reason it cannot be done. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on that?

Ms Colette Murphy:

I am not aware of one but, again, linking in with the people who care about it already is a good place to start. One could also link in with lecturers who may be teaching modules on relevant subjects. That would also be a really good place to start. There is a whole conversation on embedding this in the curriculum. For some students, their colleges have awards for being involved in the community. This was listed as a suggested activity. Perhaps it could be initiated on a campus and that would be a good incentive for students to get involved

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Would anyone else like to comment on such an initiative?

Ms Aoibh?nn Doyle:

In our secondary school we do an education for sustainability course. Many of the requirements of the course are for the students to take action in a certain way. It could be linked in with education and the curriculum in order that part of the curriculum is around the student taking action. That could be a clean-up day, getting out in the local community and helping to pick up litter, or an activity through Young Social Innovators, YSI, which we did this year.

We had a young social innovators group which focused on the litter in our school and how to improve our system of rubbish and waste. It is about having incentives and initiatives like that to encourage young people and to draw them in to do that. Once they are in the habit of it, they will keep going and might encourage their peers and fellow friends to take part also.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I have two comments and one question. I could not agree more with what Ms Aoibhínn Doyle said about the buses, the connectivity and that linkage between them. I live in Mullingar and if someone wants to get public transport to Galway, he or she has to get the bus to Athlone and then a train to Galway. There may be a 40-minute gap between a bus and a train arriving and back again. Financially, when you weigh it up, there is no difference and therefore people drive. The incentive needs to be there. I am also aware of situations whereby the bus may be available to get from A to B but there is no return bus from B to A. There are bizarre situations of State-owned bus companies driving past schools one hour before and after a school finishes and parents driving over to pick them up. That linkage is critically important if we want a public transport infrastructure which is multi-purposed and not simply about getting people to work or to social activities.

Ms Murphy said something about the links with the green schools. To my mind, the local authorities in my own constituency are absolutely wonderful with bags, gloves, litter pickers and the whole nine yards, but I wonder why they are not down in the library on a Saturday handing out these things. There are more teenagers in the library on a Saturday than will be found anywhere else during the week outside of a school setting. I refer to engaging with them where they are, as Mr. Irfan said, and that is exactly where they are.

We have covered the curriculum, secondary and third level education and the opportunities and challenges that are based there. We have covered transport. The question which we have not come to is in the context of sustainability and climate action and what needs to happen to our educational buildings. While we have seen pilot programmes around the rolling out of PV panels in some areas, what else needs to happen? Reducing food waste or other such things within the schools is really positive, but a lot of our school buildings are very old. A lot of their BER ratings are quite low and they have high levels of need for electricity and heating simply because of the buildings. In the witnesses' opinion, what needs to happen with our actual buildings in which we provide education?

Mr. Yuming Lian:

I will use Harold's Cross Educate Together school as an example. It is a prefabricated school in Harold's Cross. While it is said that prefab can be reused in the main building, it is still being built twice, no matter what. That is already lowering it down. On the Deputy's key issue of the old buildings, when new schools are being built, you should not be looking at the cheapest option. Schools should be built in a way that reflects climate action, such as solar panels, wind power or schools powered by sustainable energy. As students are walking down the halls, they can see what their building is doing that is making the environment greener and cleaner.

Ms Colette Murphy:

Supports for colleges to retrofit old buildings would be really helpful. When new student accommodation or new campus buildings are being built, they should be state-of-the-art new buildings which are using the latest technology to ensure they are green and will not be leaving a massive carbon footprint. Buildings should be sustainable and fit for purpose for decades to come because we know the built environment is one of the biggest contributors to climate change in the world. Therefore, it is really important we are very mindful. Obviously, that is a factor which is factored from the very start when getting new contractors in etc.

There is a good example of student accommodation in UCD that was built using the passive house method. It is not emitting carbon into the atmosphere. Also, there is a sustainable building of student accommodation in Galway. It is possible for it to be done. There is an idea that it will be incredibly expensive and not possible, but there are plenty of people-----

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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What is the cost of not doing it?

Ms Colette Murphy:

Exactly.

That is a really important argument. It is an important priority and it needs to be one of the core priorities when building in third level.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Department of Education is definitely going in that direction.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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We have not yet discussed it with the Department. That is why I brought it up.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, the Department is very much aware of renewables and renewable energy when it is building new schools. We have a couple of them in County Wexford - as Senator Malcolm Byrne will attest to. The biggest issue we have is old school buildings that we must ensure have environmentally friendly heating systems.

I thank the witnesses for coming here today. The discussion has been very productive on an issue of fundamental importance to the future of our planet. I think everybody would agree with that. I thank the witnesses for sharing their insights, knowledge and the evidential findings from their student peers. In coming before us today they are bringing people who are climate sceptics to the way of thinking of the younger generation - and everybody's way of thinking. They and their respective schools - and their parents and teachers - should be very proud of them for coming before the committee. The meeting is now adjourned.