Mr. Brendan Gleeson:

First, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has a job to do. Sometimes I feel that it has become kind of unfashionable to talk about affordability and managing the public purse, but that is my job and it is the job of that Department. In the context of any programme, you have to seek sanction from the Minister for public expenditure and reform. That is just part of the deal. It is the same with ACRES and every other scheme we run. We run it through that prism and the Department of public expenditure looks at it in terms of value for money. In the context of this programme – I hope somebody can help me with the figures – the increases in funding in premiums range between 46% and 66%, depending on the type of tree planted.

Another thing is we got an extra five years for farmers. Up to this point, they only got 15 years' premium. We wanted to differentiate between farmers, who are the primary landowners in Ireland, and other investors, so we got an extra five years’ premium for farmers. I mentioned some of the figures in my opening speech and I do not want to repeat stuff. One can see that a farmer who planted 8 ha of native forest can get €253,000. That is made up of €80,000 in grants for forest establishment and fencing and €176,000 in premiums over 20 years. Bear in mind, those converting agricultural land to forestry continue to get their basic income support payment. That figure excludes that and it excludes the tax-free income one gets from thinnings and harvesting. Those are dramatic increases in grant rates and they are needed. I think people will move with the economics, in some sectors. Dairy farmers probably will not convert to forestry but they might be able to convert part of their land to forestry. There are probably mixed farms that have underutilised parts of their land that could be converted to forestry. I accept what Deputy Fitzmaurice said about the environmental restrictions making that more difficult. However, regarding confidence, this is a 20-year programme and a 20-year investment, and the returns are good.

To be frank, if we keep talking it down, we will succeed. From our point of view, we have to start providing people with accurate information so they can make choices, and there are various ways of making this happen. For example, one extreme mechanism could be to stop other subsidies and put it all into forestry, which has been suggested in some quarters. However, that is not the national policy. The national policy is to give farmers a choice. They can join an environmental scheme and join organics. They can plant trees, get premiums and join organics, and still get their basic income support payment. I do not think we are communicating that very well. Perhaps no matter what we do, people will not engage with it. However, I think they will engage.