Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am delighted to be here today because this has been really informative. It is really educational for us because while we all have an understanding of the sector and the challenges that it faces, what we have been allowed to do today through this hearing is to delve a little bit deeper and further our understanding.

I came into this place in 2007 and I am kind of on my way out. I would suggest, respectfully, that up until the point where I had a family of my own, my understanding of the sector, politically, was zero. Perhaps there is an opportunity for the sector to engage with Deputies at the individual or local level to deepen their understanding. We are all very helpful from a constituency of office point of view in engaging with individual providers. There is not doubt about that. However, until such time that every Deputy and Senator has an understanding of the sector, there is potentially a job of work to be done to deepen the understanding, or to help Deputies understand the sector more. It is from that, then, that the idea of multiannual funding, proper planning and understanding the issues that all of the witnesses face on a daily basis, gets more leverage. They will get more leverage in the political landscape and start getting into the ears of Ministers, and backbenchers start getting into the ears of Ministers. It raises its profile as an issue within the political firmament. Very often, what the witnesses are doing here is competing for space and the ears of Ministers. Where there is one line Minister in a tripartite Government, that is a challenge in and of itself.

There is a job of work to do there. We have three kids at home, and I do not think one can talk about this without personalising it to one's own experience. Our eldest is six and my youngest is 15 months. Our eldest has been through sessional and ECCE services, and I make no bones about saying that it has just been transformative for our child. There is the parental role but there is also the educator role. His experience has been phenomenal.

I cannot say enough about how good the service has been. Our middle child is availing of our local naíonra and the people who work there are absolutely phenomenal people. I want to acknowledge that because I have seen how happy my children are when they come out in the evening. It is incredible the experience and dedication displayed by the people who work in these services. I know one hears platitudes from politicians but I want to express my gratitude for the services that the organisations present provide because they have had a tremendously positive effect on our little family. We are very grateful for those services.

I wish to mention a couple of things that have arisen. My party and I are in favour of a publicly funded model. In addition, my party leader, Deputy Ivana Bacik, has spoken about that Donagh O'Malley moment. I do not understand why, if there is a publicly funded model of tertiary education, primary education and secondary education, the same does not follow for early years education. I will outline the takeaways for me today and I will take these back. I hope that we, as a committee, will conduct a post mortem or analysis of all that we have heard here today and co-ordinate a position to bring to the Minister.

As mentioned earlier, Article 2 of the UNCRC clearly requires that no child should experience discrimination in early childhood and that all children should be able to access the vital services that contribute to their survival and development, in line with Article 6.5. For me, that is the starting point. Perhaps, as a public representative, I should have had that language and been equipped with it. We should equip more people like me with that language and if we start with that fundamental premise we can move on from there.

Earlier Mr. O'Connor, from SIPTU, in his statement said: "An OECD comparison of early childhood education expenditure per child shows that Ireland spent $4,790 per child in 2022, compared with an average of $11,827 for our EU peer group." I presume that is US dollars. The comparative expenditure shows how much of a laggard we are. I take the point that has been made that we are still building capacity within the system. We are very lucky to have stakeholders like yourselves who are absolutely in tune and very much driven by developing a system that we can all stand over, is fit for purpose, subject to rigour, etc. It is a case of how do we politically move beyond the anachronistic annual pageantry that takes place between line Ministers and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. For example, the Deputy O'Gorman goes to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and says he wants "X", outline his budget line, there is a scrap, the officials of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform push back and there is toing and froing. Such a system is absolutely outdated, anachronistic and does not serve the children well at all whom the stakeholders present serve well.

My biggest takeaway from today's meeting is that if we can put in place national development plans on a multi-annual basis, and if there are so many precedents here for multi-annual funding programmes, then if there is secure funding on a multi-annual basis, various issues can be tackled such as staff turnover and overheads. There are so many issues that can be tackled and if that list needs to be amended as progress is made, that can be done. That is the starting point.

I wanted to let the stakeholders that I am listening to what their representatives are saying today and that I am internalising it as one member of this committee. I will certainly take up the cudgel as one member of this committee and I hope that we, as a committee, will adopt a unified view on pushing back on the need for multi-annual planning and that is key.

I worry about the rate of attrition. When I talk to educators there are two emotions. On the one hand, there is the sense of pride that educators have in the fact that they are continuing to push themselves by availing of continuing professional development, CPD, but, on the other, they are demoralised. I know that we are only at the starting point of the ERO process. The train has literally left the station and we are not going back. We will continue to progress, hopefully, as a country, on that score.

On the retention of staff, as mentioned by Mr. O'Connor, I hope that we will get to where we need to go on that one because we do need to retain staff and that is a key challenge. If we are not retaining staff then children like my children, and the children whom I represent, are not going to benefit. We must concentrate on multi-annual programming and looking at the core rates of pay.

I take the points that have been made about core funding. Let us talk about a publicly funded model and using the other educational areas as a benchmark, which are private and public schools, and fee-paying schools and non fee-paying schools. Is it now the case that if one wants to be a fully private model, and if one has people who will pay the fees, then survive on one's own terms and if one wants to be part of the public model then one can do so? Is that where we need to go? I ask because I do not think one can be half in and half out. I mean if one subscribes to a publicly funded model or a core funding model then one has to accept the associated terms and conditions. If there is a critique of that, so be it. That is understandable but let us work through the critique. I do not have the wisdom of Solomon on this. Again, I will bow to the superior wisdom that the stakeholders present have on these matters. However, I find it frustrating, as one member of this committee, to hear different messages from different groups. I do not understand why there are so many groups. There are so many different stakeholders. Every sector has the right to organise itself according to its interests and that is perfectly laudable. Sometimes we hear different messages from different groups which I find confusing. If the sector spoke with one voice it might help with gaining greater political traction. I reiterate that I do not have the wisdom of Solomon on these matters and I am open to being corrected.

The accounting piece is a very current item that is putting a lot of pressure on providers. Earlier, Ms Dunne from the Federation of Early Childhood Providers state:

Recently, the Department has introduced a core funding chart of accounts. This is at present adding to an already top-heavy administrative burden on managers and providers. The reporting template will only be available at the end of November and a date in mid-January has been given as a submission date signed off by accountants at an additional cost to providers.

That is something for which we, as a committee, should take up the cudgel and combat immediately. Is there something that we need to do on that?