Mr. Darragh O'Connor:

On the building and capacity, it is utterly bizarre that one of the State's key policy interventions on this is handing over the building of crèchesto developers who may or may not do that. That is insane. From the points that Ms Heeney and Ms Byrne were also making, it is just like the primary schools. We know how many children are born every year. We know when they are going to be three years old and five years old. One can plan out what capacity is needed and how to be able to do that. It should not be left opened up to the market because we see that there is market failure for lots of different reasons, including million euro plus crèches for a few rooms.

There is a huge amount of merit in Ms Dunne's point as well in that the State has an involvement in building or buying premises that can be leased out to providers. That is certainly something that could be done. It is either that the State pays for it through grants, or parents pay for it through increased fees. If the State has a role, why not retain the asset and let providers get out and provide those early years services?

With regard to pay, I know that Senator Seery Kearney talked about a lot of people moving to SNAs because they have the qualifications. That is absolutely happening, or they are doing a year-long course to become a primary school teacher, or they are emigrating, or they are moving into retail. They are scattered all over the place. The key driver is pay, though it is not the only driver. At the moment, a graduate early years room leader or lead educator earns €15.50 per hour as a minimum. In no way does that recognise their work or value at all. That needs to keep on increasing year in, year out. We have only done one pay deal. We have just over a year done on it, so there is a way to go. Senator Clonan was there. The Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO has been around for 100 years, so one would expect it to get its work done by that stage.

We have to recognise the low base the sector was starting from. In 2021, a graduate room leader was earning €11.48 per hour. When we conclude this pay deal, which we hope is on the verge of being concluded, that will bring them up to €16.28. That is a 42% increase. I hate to say that it is not enough but we have to recognise that the tide that is rising is catching all the lowest paid people first. It is bringing them up to the rates we are agreeing, and we have to keep on pushing that until we get to a place where everybody is recognised with appropriate pay and conditions. That takes funding. It is either parents pay for that or the State pays for it. That is why we have to keep on working towards it.

When we see the headline figures and we say that pay is not enough and is not moving fast enough, I think we miss just how transformative those current rates of pay and the ones coming in have been for the lowest paid workers in the sector.