Dr. Tadhg O'Mahony:

I will first address the element of systems change. There has been an observed truism in the literature of this stage. If one focuses on something that is very discrete such as reducing ozone depleting substances, then it is relatively straightforward to remove that technology and remove that gas from activities. When one deals with systemic problems and opportunities in agriculture and food production, then one needs a systemic approach. This is acknowledged by the committee in its recommendation No. 21, which talked about a strategic approach and in recommendation No. 5, which talked about a plan. The committee has captured this recognition that one must focus on both the systemic side and the finance side. Either on their own will not get us to where we need to go. It is about using the different tools in the toolbox to enable a change. To work towards a systemic change allows one to look at the win-win outcomes for the future of rural Ireland and farmers' livelihoods. Biodiversity allows one to put that together. Finance can enable that but not on its own although it can complement that and is seen as very necessary.

As to whether it has been done in other places, I came across an example in the Dasgupta review. That talks about the reform of public subsidies for Swiss agriculture, which shifted from livestock production to ecosystem services. That has been successful both on income and on productivity as well as on ecosystem services over two decades in Switzerland. It has been done. Th public subsidy bit is quite important. It has been highlighted in the literature quite a few times as this is something that is driving us down a particular route. It is more towards environmentally damaging activities where we need to move towards restorative and regenerative activities. That public subsidy in particular needs to be looked at but also, as Dr. O'Hagan-Luff mentioned, there are multiple elements to finance and multiple moving pieces that we need to look at on the supply and demand side as regards how we can push them towards constructive outcomes, towards win-win outcomes that give us farmers' livelihoods and a bright future for rural development in Ireland as well as preserving and enhancing biodiversity.