Ms Jacqui McCrum:

With all of these things, the world of work is changing. When I started in banking many years ago, we were all paid the same. We then went into these streams. It then went back again. It is chopped and changed depending on circumstances. We keep account of what is happening in forces internationally. In fairness to my colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, they have a difficult job to do. They have to ensure the necessary checks and balances are in place. However, we work collectively and collegially with them. As I have said, everything that needs to be looked at is in the mix.

Senator Craughwell had asked me about the organisational capability review, which was undertaken at the same time as the Commission on the Defence Forces. He has asked me about the remediation of practices in governance, as well as the day-to-day governance responsibility and accountability. When we received that report, which is naturally another report we have to address, there were many actions in there for the management team. During my three-year tenure, we have re-organised ourselves. We have a management board that has changed. We have reorganised to concentrate on our priorities, which are defence policy, legislation and capability delivery through procurement and infrastructure.

As the Senator knows, I am the Accounting Officer. That brings with it significant responsibilities in that area. We have our own unique areas that we deal with as well. In the office of emergency planning, some very significant work is being undertaken at the moment on the critical entities resilience, CER, Directive. There is the Civil Defence, which has been before the committee as well. A smaller part we do, and this is a very positive piece, is in relation to sail training. These are all the areas we have under our remit.

In terms of principal officers and the lack of autonomy, during the time of Covid-19 in particular, when I first came in, it was quite difficult to organise ourselves. We were only learning how to organise ourselves. Certainly, however, it is my view that principal officers - although they may not like hearing me say this - are at a significant level of management and they are paid to lead and to hold that autonomy. In one way, I am a control freak and in another way, I just like to let people go and keep going until I tell them to stop. Certainly, however, that does not resonate with me. I would like to think that if we did the report again, that would have changed. It is tricky when you are in a disparate model to try to get that autonomy and to get people to push it down. In fact, even only the other day I said we need to push responsibility down further. That is challenging.

I am not quite sure what the Senator is referring to regarding the cultural issues in the Department. Maybe we should have a conversation about what it is. We are civil servants and we live those public service values. Quite honestly, anybody who does not live up to those values needs to move out of my Department because I will not countenance that. However, I have not encountered any of that, and I do not encounter that. They have a very can-do attitude. I am very proud of the team I lead, and I have never found any of them wanting. That is all I will say about that.

In terms of the external oversight board, I have received correspondence. The Tánaiste has received correspondence. The IRG made a specific recommendation in relation to that. The Tánaiste did not resile from changing any of those recommendations. That is what has been approved by the Government and that is where I currently sit.

The autonomy-----