Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Good morning to all the witnesses. I thank them for coming before the committee. Sometimes people come to these committees and think they are on trial but these committees were designed to share information. Sometimes hard questions are asked but it is not a competition. The questions are asked to see how we as a committee can function to assist the witnesses. Their opening statements have been brutally honest and I love that. They are getting off to a great start. Ms Farrelly said straight up that the €40,000 is not enough. There are complex cases and the witnesses were honest about that. They also mentioned the challenges of going into certain sites with health and safety issues with staff and so forth. They have to have that on the record. I was very interested in what was said by all the speakers. We can argue about figures, what is right and what is wrong and what the alternative figure is. You are never going to get that right because all families are different and in my opinion should be approached case by case. It is complex at times and takes a lot of time.

The witnesses mentioned the alternatives. Ms Farrelly said the on-site supports work best. Obviously, the on-site supports work best because a relationship and trust is built up and, therefore, people drop their barriers a bit, are less defensive, and a lot more can be done. Going back to what Ms Farrelly said about even accessing some of these sites and a resistance being there. Is it because of fear, distrust, or is it a lack of education? It is about trying to harmonise things.

The Chair referred to the Ombudsman for Children report, No End in Site, on the Spring Lane halting site in Cork. I like the Ombudsman for Children's report because it is brutally honest and raises issues. Many of these issues seem to stem from the lack of trust and education between Departments. Many years ago, I sat on a Traveller consultative committee within Cork County Council and I found it astonishing that when we actually sat down, they had their own group within that board, and it was about off-site amenities. Aside from their halting site, they had no place for the horses, which are part of their tradition. We were not aware of that. We got to work with them and facilitate it and tried to get a bit of land close to the site. They then started engaging with the local community, showing them how to look after the horses and there was massive community engagement. I thought that was a fabulous model but something broke down at some stage and that part of the board on the committee on the Traveller's side went on strike. They were standing their ground. They were not doing it in a nasty way; they were doing it democratically. It was amazing. I learned so much from it.

I commend all of the witnesses because I love pilot projects. They are experiments and it takes a lot to get them right but at least things are being pumped into it. Both speakers said things are not perfect. They have started with a base figure and moved on. Things are getting more expensive now anyway, so they have to move on again. At least if they all work together on a pilot project, they will eventually get it right. One thing I always say is that we should never be afraid to ask. Many is the time you can be disappointed when you ask but at least ask for it.

I was very interested in the fact the society has changed, generations of thinking has changed. We want to preserve tradition but this has to be weighed against value for money. What if you went into a particular halting site with a particular age group and asked people if they knew there were alternatives to a caravan, very similar to a caravan but which would be way better, last a lot longer and be of a better and high-quality standard? I am talking about modular homes on-site because they are going to be plumbed the same way anyway for water, storage and electricity. Are there alternatives in the long term that councils could be looking at and be supported by the Department. You could spend €100,000 on a mobile home if you wanted to. I had a meeting in a committee room in 2017. It was with an Irish company that was not being supported in Ireland at the time and it could build a two-bedroom modular pod, with a television and the whole lot inside in it, for €42,500. I know it was only a two-bed but it just goes to show. We have probably lost an opportunity to get better quality and a better standard of housing, that is, alternative housing than the standard caravan or mobile home. I am asking if this could be an alternative and if we could educate people and gave them the options. They could be offered "X" or "Y" which is a caravan or mobile home but they could be told about slightly different options available if they were interested in them. I know I went the long way around it but that is just one point.

I always feel the biggest barrier when working with the Traveller community and councils is trust. When you are working with local authorities, and as Ms Farrelly said when you go in on the schooling issue, you are building trust. I agree that a caretaker is a possibility. However, being honest, people who live in those sites have a responsibility to keep the place clean and they should be told that. There has to be give and take. If there is an argument that has to be had, let it come out. That is very important.

There was a report from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, that contained a few points but I am not going to go into them all. I refer to the exclusion from decision-making. Again it is down to getting people talking. One of the findings of this report was that people felt they were being excluded from the decision-making process during the caravan loan scheme. Maybe they felt they were excluded because nobody spoke to them about it or did not tell them about possible alternatives there.

It comes down to working with people.

There is one thing I found very strange. It is slightly off the accommodation side, but it has to do with it. If there are two or three families living on the same halting site with the same surname applying for fuel allowance, it must be very difficult. It is the same address. There are families living in one site, but only one family is going to get that fuel allowance because the Department will be asking what the story is. There are three families with the same names at the same address. It is something interesting I want to flag. As I said, I am not here to knock things. This committee is about assisting in any way to make improvements.

I have worked with a lot of Travellers. Even in my own town I have worked with a lot of settled Travellers, and they are absolutely amazing. These are the lads who will not even go into a site. They have been there so many years now that it is kind of accepted that plot of land, and that side of the road belongs to the lads below. The place is pristine. They have actually put in extra lights for safety. A new road went in a number of years ago to reach a school. We went down and engaged with them. We spoke with them, and assured them that nothing was going to happen. There might be a slightly different road to get in and out of their place, but that was it. Once we engaged with them there was absolute harmony. In probably 27 years I never saw a Garda car down there. I have never seen anti-social behaviour down there. I have seen nothing, because they have pride in their communities as well. That has to be recognised too.

The amount of work the witnesses have gone through in such a short period has to be noted. It is not easy. I love that we are talking about the various county councils and what they are trying to do. Like with the HSE, they often seem to be protecting their own patches and budgets. However, if they can learn from each other and listen to the two speakers on the education side, it gives me hope, which I think is brilliant. I say to give them the education and give them the alternatives, and certainly try to engage with them like we do. I have never been frightened going into a halting site. I might be frightened when I get in, when a couple of them come around to ask what you are there for. However, you just have to explain that you are there to help or whatever.

This committee could be a massive advantage to the witnesses, even if it is to come back and ask questions. We would say that there is no such thing as a stupid question. The response is the problem. I thank the Chair. I know I went the long way round.