Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 13 July 2023
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Disability Matters
Increased Employment Participation, Self-employment and Entrepreneurship for People with Disabilities: Discussion
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss increased employment participation, self-employment and entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Eddie Hennessy, Matt McCann, chief executive officer, Access Earth and Professor Thomas M. Cooney, Technological University Dublin, TUD.
Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if they are asked to cease giving evidence because it might be potentially defamatory it is imperative that they comply with that request.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members contributing remotely that they must be within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings.
I welcome my neighbour, Mr. Eddie Hennessy, and invite him to contribute his opening remarks.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I suffered a major stroke through heart disease, which left me in a wheelchair for six months. I could not speak a full sentence for two years and was left with severe aphasia and concentration problems. I still have problems reading and writing to this day. When I could, I based my recovery around cycling. I saw Ireland like I had never seen it before from the saddle. I told myself that I must get a camera to record some of my beautiful Ireland, and then I fell in love with photography.
With help from Headway Ireland, I was encouraged to start a business. By registering to open a business, I had to change my invalidity payment to partial capacity benefit. This meant my payment was reduced by 25%, even though I was not making enough money to pay myself. I took the hit because photography gave me back my self-worth, which was totally gone due to my disability. I was basically paying the State back for my recovery and taking the time to learn the business of photography and develop my skills into a world-class brand. That is what I did. CreativeLive, one of the biggest online training companies for creatives, told my story and showed my work to their community of ten million. Robert Evans, a celebrity wedding photographer whose weddings include Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Blake Shelton and many more, flew to Cork to meet me and hear my story in person. In 2018, I was named wedding photographer of the year by a national magazine. My company was growing stronger. I was able to hire an employee to assist me with business activities, which my disability prevented me from doing. The progress was slow but my plan was working. My vision was to establish a structure that would not allow my disability to hold me back and eventually to start taking a salary.
However, I received notification from the Department of Social Protection that my partial capacity benefit payment would be reduced by 50%, without any medical evidence. I appealed, showing my updated medical report, which showed my deterioration from the initial report. It took almost a year to get it reversed. Instead of focusing on my recovery and developing my company, most of my time was taken up with fighting for my partial capacity benefit. The Department does not communicate directly with the public, which was hard for a person with communication problems. I think this started to break me, and certainly made me doubt whether my business was viable with the not so hidden cost of disability. My business incurred approximately 30% more costs than those of my able-bodied competitors.
Getting grants for specialized gear felt like robbing the taxpayer. I was actually told that it was taxpayer's money I was looking for. They looked at every way not to give me the grant and finally I was refused. I eventually sought ministerial help, and the decision was reversed. However, I decided I could not go through that again in four or five years when my specialised gear needed updating.
Therefore, I decided to wind down my business. It is not the social model versus the medical model at source. It feels like “us against them”. I thought creatively and outside the box to overcome obstacles in society, in business and, most importantly, in my recovery, but I could not overcome the State’s disability to see that disabled entrepreneurs can contribute to society.
I have been campaigning for policies and supports for disabled entrepreneurs using my business as a real-life case study for the past five years. The purpose is to highlight to the Government and policymakers the obstacles disabled people have to overcome and to share the findings of my real-life case study with them. It has been a frustrating endeavour, often asking similar questions of dozens of people. They sometimes respond but they never answer my questions.
It is too late for me now, but it is to be hoped my campaign will make it easier for disabled people to set up their own businesses and thrive in society, even for the purpose of rehabilitation. The findings of many reports show strong evidence, but politicians and policymakers continue to sit on them. The politicians accept the answers from their Departments and expect me to accept them too, but I will not. It is not fair.
Mr. Matt McCann:
I am deeply honoured to be invited to this committee to discuss the crucial subject of increasing employment participation for people with disabilities through self-employment and entrepreneurship. As we gather here today during Disability Pride month, this dialogue could not be more timely. As a person with cerebral palsy and the co-founder of Access Earth, I am very familiar with the challenges and opportunities that exist within this area.
First, it is important to underscore a reality that is often overlooked: most disabilities are acquired during our working life. According to the United Nations, we will all, on average, spend about eight years of our lives with some form of disability. This fact illustrates that employers have to be prepared to adapt throughout an employee's evolving career journey. Our focus should not only be on creating inclusive hiring practices and providing support for self-employment, but also on creating a work environment that is adaptable and can meet changing needs during an employee's tenure.
People with disabilities, like anyone else, have a diverse range of skills, talents and passions. However, we are often faced by unique hurdles in the traditional employment market due to inaccessible workplaces, prejudiced assumptions and limited opportunities for career advancement. For many, self-employment and entrepreneurship provide both a path to independence and fulfilment and a chance to contribute meaningfully to our society and economy.
While celebrating Disability Pride month is significant, it is crucial to acknowledge that we still have a long road ahead of us. Far too often, disability is overlooked or given superficial attention in discussions and actions around diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a disparity we must actively and earnestly address. In Ireland, we have made significant strides in identifying those barriers, and the TU Dublin report, Pathway to Entrepreneurship for People with Disabilities in Ireland, demonstrates a commitment to wanting to do more. However, the lived experiences of entrepreneurs like me suggest there is so much more we can do. Despite the advances we have made, disabled entrepreneurs in particular face additional barriers. These range from accessing start-up capital to navigating built environments that are not designed for us. There is also the added labour of essentially having to educate others about our conditions and needs, an often overlooked part of our entrepreneurial journey.
I am in a unique position as a disabled entrepreneur in that I find myself in the dual role of being both an employer and an employee with disabilities. This perspective allows me to understand the challenges on both sides of the employment equation. As an employer, I want to be able to make my company not just accessible in its products and services but also in its work environment and culture. This requires continuous learning and adaptation as well as investments in accessibility that can be difficult to make within the start-up phase. Equally, as an employee, I grapple with managing my health and energy levels and accessing appropriate accommodation as well as battling societal prejudice and misconceptions about what I am capable of.
To address these challenges effectively, I believe we need to deepen our commitment to three key areas. The first is education. Society needs a better understanding of the realities and capabilities of people with disabilities, which will help to reduce biases and open up opportunities in all sectors. The second is accessibility. While physically accessible workplaces are crucial, other aspects like communications and technology must also be considered because everyone’s accessibility needs are different and everyone’s disability story is different. The third area is support. Disabled entrepreneurs require additional support, including funding, mentorship and networks. This support should be widely available and tailored to meet everyone’s unique needs and journey and not just put them in the same bucket as everyone else.
The goal should be a society where disability is not seen as a barrier to entrepreneurship but as a unique perspective and a real opportunity to help drive innovation. Given we are clearly problem solvers and exceptionally determined people, we are well suited for this sector. It is not just about doing what is right for people with disabilities; it is about what is right for society as a whole. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak.
Professor Tom Cooney:
Since 2006, I have been heavily involved in work relating to entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. In 2021, I tailored, designed and delivered a 12-week online course, called Entrepreneurship for People with Disabilities, in conjunction with the Open Doors initiative. Following its success, AIB agreed to fund its delivery for another three years. This is the only tailored start your own business programme in Ireland for people with disabilities.
To analyse the current situation, there are effectively three options for people to put food on the table. The first is employment, but Ireland has the lowest levels of employment for people with disabilities, as the EU Social Forum reported earlier this year. The second is self-employment but, beyond our course, there is no tailored support available or encouragement to start your own business. The third is welfare support, but this leads to the greatest barrier to self-employment, which is the welfare benefit trap.
I make one key point that I would like the committee to remember above and beyond anything else I say today. People with disabilities face additional and distinctive challenges in starting their own business that the general population does not face. Until such time as people accept this truth, there will not be change. When I talk to support agencies and other relevant organisations about tailored support for people with disabilities relating to self-employment, I am given two comments: “We treat everyone the same” and “Our door is open to everyone.”
Treating everyone the same is not the solution because tailored support is required. In addition, the notion of the door being open to everyone only works if the people know the door exists and can access it. Again, I reiterate that people with disabilities face additional and distinctive challenges in starting a business and we must address these.
According to an OECD report from earlier this year on entrepreneurship for people with disabilities:
... people with disabilities, on average, face greater barriers in business start-up and development due to lower levels of education, less work experience, and negative social attitudes. In addition to challenges related to skills and finance gaps, obstacles to self-employment include limited access to entrepreneurship support, disincentives related to interactions between income and income support, and difficulties building networks. Moreover, many people with a disability do not see themselves as having entrepreneurial potential.
The report also highlighted the low levels of awareness of disability issues within entrepreneurship support systems.
For the record, I would like it noted that there are 17,654 people with disabilities who are self-employed and who have employees in this country, according to the 2016 census that was carried out by the Central Statistics Office, CSO. There are 34,461 people with disabilities who are self-employed and have no employees. I secured those data by personally requesting them from the CSO. However, despite the number of people with a disability who are self-employed, there is a great shortage of role models. There is also a significant lack of representation of people with disabilities in the marketing activities of relevant enterprise agencies.
What have been our policy responses? In the Comprehensive Employment Strategy for People with Disabilities 2015-2024, action 2.10 proposed two actions, of which only one has been addressed. In the 2019-21 phase 2 action plan, action 2.7 proposed three actions. Only one of these has been addressed and that was due to the course introduced by TUD, which addressed the mentoring element. To be clear, these two are the only actions in respect of self-employment mentioned in either report. There are some tailored activities provided by some local development companies but it is a postcode lottery and the offerings are inconsistent. In previous work I have done, I found out that people working in the system do not know what is available and so cannot confidently advise clients. I will also make a point regarding our welfare system, which I would argue is a binary system which basically says that a given person either can work or cannot. Research from the UK shows that a binary welfare system is a significant barrier to self-employment and that it needs to be changed to allow for fluctuations in health and ability to work. Overall, a forthcoming OECD country note for Ireland on inclusive entrepreneurship highlights the lack of policy and tailored entrepreneurship initiatives for people with disabilities in Ireland.
What can we do? A recent report from the OECD made a number of policy recommendations. This information is out there; the work has already been done. The report recommends that we build an entrepreneurial identity among people with disabilities by promoting role models. Its next recommendation is that we ensure there are pathways back into income support systems when start-ups are not successful, such as bridging allowances that provide temporary income support. It proposes that we adjust the delivery of entrepreneurship support schemes for the needs and capabilities of individual participants by offering more individualised support such as coaching and co-designing schemes with disability organisations whenever possible. It also recommends that we invest in collecting more data on people with disabilities. This includes measuring the impact of dedicated entrepreneurship schemes.
The 2020 TUD report, Pathway to Entrepreneurship for People with Disabilities in Ireland, advocated that we create an awareness campaign that highlights the benefits of self-employment; build a dedicated website with tailored information; offer dedicated start-your-own-business programmes; provide one-to-one mentoring, which international research highlights as a critical success factor in any programme; present suitable finance options, in respect of which Microfinance Ireland could play a role; and establish a network of entrepreneurs with disabilities, such as the networks that exist in the UK, Canada and other countries. I asked the respondents from the last two years' courses what they believed needed to be changed and the responses overwhelmingly related to changing the welfare support system and the long waiting time to get reinstated when benefits are lost. Particular reference was made to the partial capacity benefit scheme. If one is looking for models from abroad, I suggest the flexi-job model from Denmark, which provides for a wage subsidy that is available to people with disabilities regardless of whether they are working as an employee or as a self-employed person. This might be examined as a model for replication. I am happy to answer any queries or provide any information that the committee may require to advance its work.
Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome today. They have come with some problems but also with some solutions, which is very helpful. I congratulate Mr. Hennessy and thank him very much for his presentation. It was interesting. As he was cycling around Ireland, he decided, with the help of Headway, to start a business. There are issues and Mr. Hennessy has highlighted them. We do not have a back-to-work scheme suitable for a person who is in recovery. There needs to be a more holistic approach to sort that out. I am disappointed it took Mr. Hennessy nearly a year to get that decision reversed. That the additional costs he faced were not taken into consideration is disappointing to say the least. He has highlighted very clearly that the model does not work for somebody in a situation like his. We need to look at that. A lot more work needs to be done to facilitate disabled people in setting up their own businesses. As Mr. Hennessy has highlighted, it is not just about people who are disabled, but people who are in rehabilitation as well. I am disappointed that he had to go through those very difficult hoops. We are here to try to ensure that does not happen again. I know that Mr. Hennessy is also advocating to make sure it does not happen again so I thank him for his perseverance.
Employment, including self-employment, is very important for people with disabilities and people like Mr. McCann are getting out there and trying to change things. They want to make a meaningful contribution to society. Mr. McCann said that the Pathway to Entrepreneurship for People with Disabilities in Ireland report demonstrates a commitment to the cause but he is right that the lived experience of entrepreneurs with disabilities suggests there is much more we can do.
I will move on to Professor Cooney's contribution. He has come up with a solution, noting the flexi-job system in Denmark that provides for a wage subsidy that is available to people with disabilities. Does the Chair think we could examine that? We could bring some people here or perhaps Professor Cooney might be able to elaborate on it. It is always good to examine best practice from other countries. I thank Professor Cooney for bringing us the solution.
On the barriers, before I entered politics I had a business and employed 30 people.
It was a bar and restaurant, and I have to say I find politics a lot easier. I did not have the challenges Mr. Hennessy had and they were different times. Even now, it is much more difficult. There are greater barriers facing business start-ups.
I did not realise that there 17,654 people with disabilities who are self-employed and have employees and 34,000 people with disabilities who are self-employed and do not have employees. Something good is happening. This committee is here to listen, find out what the barriers are and see how we can improve matters.
One thing that we all need is role models. As a Government - and I am part of Government - the question sometimes is how one gets that message out. We are all so busy, and I see with so many Government and local authority initiatives that they are trying to get the message out. That is where role models or advocates are very important. Word of mouth and the helping hand are very important. We could do a bit more work on that.
It is no surprise to hear there needs to be much greater flexibility in the welfare supports system. I am not saying it is not fit-for-purpose. The committee has heard this previously and we have already raised with the Minister the matter of issuing medical cards. We need not so much a more tailored approach but a more flexible approach.
I thank the witnesses for coming in today. We hear them loud and clear. This committee and its chairperson, as I have said before, are dedicated to ensuring their voices are heard. The committee goes up through the various structures. The budget in October may provide more funding but it is not just about money. A more innovative approach is needed to deal with this issue. I thank the witnesses for coming in and articulating those difficulties.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Hennessy, Mr. McCann and Professor Cooney and thank them for coming in to speak to us. They have made it very clear what the issues are and have offered solutions. I will talk a little more about their experiences. Mr. Hennessy frequently makes the point that there are supports in place for employers to employ disabled people, including the wage subsidy scheme and the reasonable accommodations fund, but the same supports do not exist to employ oneself. I ask Mr. Hennessy to expand on that. What supports did he receive, and where were supports lacking? I ask the same question of Mr. McCann. What supports were in place and where did they let him down? What barriers did he come up against, including attitudinal barriers put up by people around disability? I will come back to Professor Cooney afterwards.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The supports are there for people to employ disabled people but the same supports do not seem to exist to employ oneself, such as the wage subsidy scheme or the reasonable accommodations fund.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
Yes. It is clear we disabled entrepreneurs are forgotten about in making policies for supports. As regards the supports I received first, I did not get any support because 25% off was taken off me. Most people get an extra bonus for looking for work, but the State took money off me. The partial capacity benefit is brilliant for a disabled employee but it is not designed for disabled entrepreneurs. The workplace equipment adaptation grant was the main support I received. It was about €5,000, and I used it to get specialised equipment and cameras. The cost of disability can be added up.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Basically, Mr. Hennessy would need to be able to maintain his full payment until he is really established.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
That is to live. To develop a business, there are grants for everything. I do not need a grant to build a website. I do not need a grant to get a mentorship. I have the practice. I have no shortage of work. I want the State to help me in providing that work to people and contributing to society.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lack of flexibility there around the grants.
Mr. Matt McCann:
I can speak to a similar situation as Mr. Hennessy's. I know that when I speak to disabled entrepreneurs who are in the same situation as I am, we are in this weird scenario where we are almost scared to start a business because we know the disability allowance, in my case, would just be taken away, and there is no step-down situation or safety net in that sense. This leads to an extra level of stress when trying to set up a business. Before the business is able to provide support, one's own supports would be taken away.
Similar to Mr. Hennessy's situation, with all the different grants that were available, a lot of them just did not really apply to me and I could not find ways to identify those supports. I echo Mr. Hennessy in that I faced the exact same challenges. There is that lack of flexibility in understanding that everyone's situation is different.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The point has been made here by disabled people that self-employment would suit many of them because it allows them the flexibility to work around. With Mr. McCann's capability, he does not have to work to what an employer wants but then he is coming up against different barriers. Professor Cooney said that there are over 50,000 disabled self-employed people. Is that correct?
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it similar to our employment rate?
Professor Tom Cooney:
Yes, and in proportion to the number of people with disability, we are way behind every other country.
I would like to come back on one or two things regarding comments that Deputy Tully raised. If one takes Mr. Hennessy's situation - and he and I know each other quite well - he has a disability and he cannot get a grant to employ somebody without a disability, whereas if he was somebody without a disability employing somebody with a disability, he could get a grant. He needs support regarding driving or carrying equipment and he cannot get any support to hire a person to do that. If it was the other way around, he would have no problem getting support. That is one of the anomalies that exists.
On the other point the Deputy made, she is quite right that the environment is probably best now. The Covid-19 pandemic taught us that remote working is possible and assistive technologies have never been better.
Some might discriminate against those with a disability in business, but if the latter are in the background because they are working from home, their disabilities are invisible. Also, there are no issues with access to work and there is flexibility with hospital appointments and medical issues. All of this is now possible but the difficulty is that some people who start up a business need to step away for a while for health reasons, meaning they have no income and cannot get back into the welfare benefits system. This comes back to the point I made about the binary system whereby one must be either working or not working. People move along a line in that they sometimes can work and sometimes cannot, but if they step off the line, they are lost. The welfare benefit trap is without doubt the single biggest barrier to self-employment for people with a disability and, arguably, to employment under others. This is the main issue we need to address but there are others also, including that of relevant enterprise supports.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Greater understanding is needed among staff in the Department of Social Protection, Enterprise Ireland and other organisations dealing with these issues.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the guests. Listening to them, I learned about the problems we face regarding the employment of people with disabilities, including self-employment and entrepreneurship. All the challenges faced are massive. Various challenges are faced depending on a person's disability.
Ignorance is an awful problem when it comes to dealing with people or Departments. I am very sure a certain amount of discrimination takes place as a result of it.
The question of how people weigh up what job a person is suitable for needs to be addressed. Proper training is required because training seems to be a major problem. People need to be more aware of that.
I am curious about the local enterprise offices. It was mentioned that they do not give enough support to people with disabilities. Maybe we could be given an insight into that.
I do not know the help that is available in, say, partnerships or the likes of SOLAS. I am not sure how well it goes down. Most people starting a business or otherwise go to the partnerships or SOLAS. Is there special help for people with disabilities, such as financial support when starting a business? I would like to hear the delegates' thoughts on that.
Reference was made to the reasonable accommodation fund. It plays a fair role in supporting people with disabilities and autistic people in securing employment. How is it co-ordinated? I am just not sure how it works.
Professor Cooney referred to the binary welfare system and the argument that a person must either work or not work. I agree with him that there is a huge gap that needs to be addressed. There cannot just be a choice between working and not working. There has to be a proper analysis of individual cases.
Reference was made to a network of entrepreneurs with disabilities. How would that be set up? Could I have an insight into the thinking in this regard? People could share their experiences if such a network could be set up. It would have great benefits.
Reference was also made to a panel of independent, impartial experts who would help to ensure all decisions made would be fair and impartial. Maybe Professor Cooney could give us an insight into how this would work.
Is there any appeals process that works for people who are treated unfairly or those affected by a decision that goes against them? Maybe we could be given an idea of how it works.
Mr. Hennessy gave us his lived experience. My God, he has had some battle. Fair play to him. All his attention has been on fighting over the partial capacity benefit all the time, making him unable to concentrate on what he has been trying to do, namely, photography. It is very disappointing to hear that he is constantly battling Departments and battling over funds and various other things. He ended up having to wind down his business. It is great to see that he is doing his best to highlight the issues for others and all the challenges he has had. It is never too late to continue. From what I can see, he is doing a great job. Long may it continue.
Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Most people use the partnerships or SOLAS as a way in when starting a business and accessing training. I am just not clear how that ties in.
Professor Tom Cooney:
I can answer that because I have done some research on it. The local development companies or partnerships operate on an ad hocbasis. There are people who provide support to those with a disability who are seeking to start a business but they are unlikely to have been trained to work with people with disabilities. Occasionally, and I mean occasionally, some partnerships run a programme for people with disabilities, but the offering is completely inconsistent. There is a postcode lottery in that it depends on where you live and when it is happening. There is no national plan or strategy and there is no consistency of offering. The other problem we have is that if you ask somebody in the system whom to go to for help, they genuinely do not know. They cannot say who a person with a disability who wants to start a business should talk to and who is offering a course. Nobody has an idea. One of the proposals that has been made is for a portal or central point of reference. The local enterprise office could be that.
One of the Deputy's questions was on the local enterprise offices. They are supportive of the programme we run and provide the mentors. We train the mentors to work with people with a disability so they will have empathy and an understanding of the additional and distinctive challenges they face.
Beyond that, there are no tailored supports for people with disability through the local enterprise office. I wonder whether the localenterprise.iewebsite is top standard in terms of accessibility. It would be interesting to do an audit on that alone. There is no strategy from Enterprise Ireland around working with people with disability even though that was one of the actions from one of the previous plans. If you look across the system in terms of enterprise supports, you will see there is nothing tailored being provided through local development companies, LDCs; local enterprise offices, LEOs; and Enterprise Ireland.
I will reference Mr. Hennessy again. Some members of the committee would have been in on the email on this. I am not saying anything that is not already publicly available. He questioned the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding tailored supports. The letter he received back detailed the supports available to him but there was nothing tailored in it. That is the whole argument. It was all general supports that are widely available to anyone. Then Mr. Hennessy was told to talk to the Department of Social Protection for benefits and to the offices of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, about disability because they deal with that. The lack of understanding regarding the question he asked, which was what supports are available to him as somebody with a disability, was completely disregarded. That is the point that I hope the committee will take away from today. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator McGreehan.
Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Hennessy this morning. It is nice to see him in person and, after the email correspondence, to put a face to the emails. I thank him for his contribution.
First, I want to say I am sorry that Mr. Hennessy had to close his business due to the State having a lack of ambition for its citizens and being unable to support Mr. Hennessy with his talent and the situation he is in. Mr. Hennessy happens to have a disability but the State penalises him for that disability instead of encouraging and supporting him.
When we had the Department of Social Protection in here last week, we asked its officials about self-employment. We asked them about supporting people with disabilities into worthwhile employment, employment with career progression and employment not for the sake of box ticking. It is true that the Department has plans to get people into basic employment but when it comes to that ambition, which we all have, it is not there. It really is not. It was clear from the meeting that they have not examined the effects of their policies on people with disabilities. They tick boxes. They have reasonable accommodation grants, etc. We see that lack of ambition across many Departments.
Mr. Hennessy spoke about the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I remember speaking to him about the Commencement matter that I had in relation to specific supports for people with disabilities in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. There was a lovely speech from the Department but it could have just come in and said "No" because it would have been a lot quicker. The answer basically was "No". Of course, it is all open to everyone. We have equality in the system but we have no equity in the system.
We have spoken about Professor Cooney's course. At this stage, the professor is famous in this committee. Many Departments and other bodies state that we have this and they point to Professor Cooney. Therefore, it is nice to have Professor Cooney here. It is an excellent course, but it is one course. It is in Trinity College. It is not accessible for everybody and not everyone can-----
Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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No, but it is one place. It is one course. Departments and Enterprise Ireland all spoke about Professor Cooney's course.
When we are pushing for budgetary changes for budget 2024, what are the asks? Is it a change in that partial capacity payment? Is it a movement from social welfare, away from that medical model or benefit model, towards an employment support scheme in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment? Where does it fit better? In my opinion, and it is only a personal opinion, employment is an enterprise, entrepreneurship is an enterprise and there should be a space in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for a person with disabilities who has the audacity to want to start his or her own business and create employment, pay his or her taxes, and benefit his or her local communities because it is always small businesses that support their local communities. What would be their opinions in relation to that?
I am interested in how Professor Cooney's course can be that beginning point for the LEOs and how that can be the template. He is right that the response from the LEOs is that it is open to everybody, and is not tailor-made. The LEO does not understand. It has not listened to people with disabilities and there is no policy in relation to entrepreneurship among people with disabilities. I wonder how that could be pushed on a national level in the LEOs.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Will we start with Professor Cooney and then go to Mr. McCann.
Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, apologies.
Professor Tom Cooney:
I had better get that one right for the bosses.
The course has been a tremendous success. We are oversubscribed every year. We are currently recruiting for the next course, which starts in September. It is a 12-week online course. The fact that it is online makes it accessible around the country.
In terms of what the LEOs can do, in fairness they are supporting through the mentoring. As I say, we trained up their mentors. However, it comes back to the promotion and the awareness. If we were promoting it through the LEOs, through the localities and making it accessible to everybody in all counties where they would be pushing it and saying that they promote and support this, that would change the game completely in making people aware that this is a career option. That is the part that we are struggling with.
I would argue that disability organisations are somewhat to blame in this as well in that generally when we look at career options for people with disability, it is about how we get them a job and how we support them into employment. Why does the discussion around self-employment not take place? Why can that not be a career option? I am not suggesting it is the panacea that will change things.
We have a number of problems. The first is that not everybody with a disability who is self-employed wants to be a role model. Some people just say they are an entrepreneur and do not want to be a champion or an advocate. Equally, I do not see in the LEO literature or any of its promotional material examples of people with disability. They are not visible. A great example in this country around what works is that almost 15 years ago, when we were having this conversation about women entrepreneurs and the gender gap in entrepreneurship, we created within Enterprise Ireland the women's entrepreneurship unit in 2011.
We created tailored programmes for women entrepreneurs that have become oversubscribed year on year. In 2020, a women's entrepreneurship strategy was launched by Enterprise Ireland and supported by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has been overwhelmingly successful. It has reduced the general gap in terms of entrepreneurial activity because we highlighted it. We spotlighted it. Some 13.5% of the population, or 14% in the new census, has a disability. Highlighting and championing these supports as an option and doing it through the local enterprise offices, LEOs, is our best option because the general nature of the types of business coming through would suit them. We can make a difference. We can make change. That is one area and obviously there is the disability supports which we have talked about earlier. I will let colleagues come in.
Mr. Matt McCann:
I would echo that entirely. This October will mark my eighth year in business. When I started, I could not find any examples of disability-owned businesses within Ireland. It was difficult. It might go to Professor Cooney's remark that some people do not want to be the role models. However, that is different to setting up that support network. When we talk about showcasing success stories, we are talking about bringing businesses front and centre into the media and doing that series of stories. This is great for a few days of coverage and great for generating publicity but it sets those businesses up almost on a pedestal, which means people then feel they are more difficult to approach. Sometimes, when I was starting out on my journey, I just wanted to be able to talk with other founders in the same position. I found that when there were other businesses which were maybe showcased in the media, I felt I could not approach them as I was not there on my journey. I did not know how to talk about different challenges I was facing. When I started out through the Enterprise Ireland support programmes, there were times I felt I could not really talk about the challenges I was facing because it was different for the other people within my cohort. I had to push through that. If I had had access to the course now being run and had known there was a supportive network available or that if I went to the LEO and asked to talk to a disability-owned business, it would agree and open me up to that cohort would have been a great support. Sharing our lived experiences and sharing those challenges is really where I see most of the power; not leaving it up to a select few businesses that just seem to be promoted. That for me would have been a great support.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
The Department using the term equality as a solution without even looking at the distinctive challenges disabled entrepreneurs have to go through is deeply flawed. As Professor Cooney has said, we have a model. Women's entrepreneurship is a success. It does not have to be built from the ground up. The simple question I am asking of the Department for the past five years is why the wage subsidy scheme is not available to disabled entrepreneurs? It is as simple as that. It will not answer me. Therefore, we need committee members to chase this up.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Professor Cooney is very welcome to the Houses. It is great to meet a colleague. I worked in Technological University Dublin, TUD, for 20 years and have been involved in a number of his courses. Regarding the whole Trinity College Dublin question, the Supreme Court judgment at the end of this month may actually produce a TUD Senator as well as a Trinity College Dublin Senator. It could be double hats. I will ask three questions. I will come to Mr. Hennessy last but will ask him to answer first, if he does not mind.
I refer to the opacity around supports; there is no one-stop shop to which people can go to find out what supports are available. This is a universal theme across the whole lived experience of disability. Nobody will tell you anything. In fact, not only is there not a one-stop shop but I have always experienced a huge pushback even from social workers. They do not want to tell you what is available because they do not want to administer it. They cannot be bothered with the work of it. In many cases, they are incentivised to return funding to show efficiency so they do not want to spend their budget either. It is a combination of those things. First, the LEOs were mentioned but apart from the Citizens Information Centre, which is the only place I have ever encountered that is actually willing to tell you what is there in any kind of a meaningful way, can Professor Cooney identify an agency or an enterprise which should be tasked with providing a one-stop shop for disabled entrepreneurs and disabled self-employment people? I direct that first question at Professor Cooney. I will move on and will let Mr. Hennessy answer first then.
Second, I am interested Mr. McCann's business Access Earth, and the service he provides and the business he services and supports. Professor Cooney referred to the disability agencies talking about getting disabled citizens into employment but not necessarily mentioning the whole entrepreneur piece. Is that a function of them not being disabled persons organisations, DPOs? I wonder whether there a space for a DPO or even a business, not unlike Mr. McCann's own, that could tie these things together and mentor and support. Is Mr. McCann aware of a DPO either here or in any other jurisdiction that has leadership in this area in trying to support and scaffold disabled entrepreneurs and citizens?
The final question is for Mr. Hennessy who can answer first. I am going to ask him a slightly personal question and he does not have to answer. I thank him very much for coming before the committee today. I was very moved by listening to him speak about his rehabilitation. He said he spent six months in a wheelchair and then two years before he could finish a sentence, if I am correct. Having been a member of this committee, and when listening to colleagues and many of the witnesses who come in, I am conscious there is an assumption that disabled citizens are actually fully supported. This assumption is also often in the literature. There is an assumption that they have the therapies, interventions, and supports that they need. My experience is having a child, now an adult, with a disability. My experience of his journey is that there are no therapies. He did not get physiotherapy or speech therapy. Was that a challenge for Mr. Hennessy as an adult who acquired a disability? During that period, did he get the physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy supports and is he still getting those supports, or does he have to access them privately? I imagine that is another piece of the jigsaw in order to be able to function and to drive and lead his business.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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It was DIY. Let the committee hear that. That is something I have been saying over and over again: there are no supports out there. Anybody who thinks or suggests that there are supports is very much mistaken.
We had the Australians in for a meeting this week. The national disability insurance scheme in Australia provides disabled Australian citizens with a wraparound service with all the therapies and supports they need. It is not perfect but it is a model of excellence. We asked them how much it costs. It costs the Australian exchequer $21 billion Australian dollars. It has a population of 21 million people and we have a population of 5 million people. I would extrapolate from that it would cost us $5 billion Australian dollars, which is €3 billion. That is what it would cost to have proper services and supports for disabled citizens here. The annual budget for the HSE is €22 billion.
I get angrier each time I sit in this committee and each time I speak to this subject in the Seanad. We are failing our disabled citizens and it is because of a contempt for them. We have plenty of money and we can do this. However, there is a collective unwillingness, or a learned helplessness, among us elected representatives.
I commend Mr. Hennessy on his DIY. It should not be so, but I commend him on it. I wish him continued good health and success. I thank him for his response. I am sorry for going into the personal space.
Could Mr. McCann address that issue about DPOs?
Mr. Matt McCann:
I can speak from my experience. When I was growing up, I was supported by Enable Ireland. However, its remit from its perspective was to get me walking independently. It was very much from a physio and occupational therapy perspective. Now, Enable Ireland and some DPOs are starting to move in the direction of looking at a more holistic view of what a person wants to be or what they want to grow up to be. I did not have that experience. I had great physio and occupational therapy experiences but I did not have any support with regard to whether I wanted to go to college and what that would be like and all that sort of stuff. It was early days for that. Ireland does not really have that specific DPO that is focused in on adult life, for example, whether people want to go into self-employment or start their own business.
On Mr. Hennessy’s point, there are organisations that will support employers employing people with disabilities. However, as a model to follow, ONCE in Spain has a massive budget to be able to encompass the entire life story of someone with a disability. If you want to start a business, you go to ONCE. If you want to get support from your local politician, you go to ONCE. It has become an advocacy group that has the budget and the support from the government to be able to bring people along that journey. Spain also has organisations such as PREDIF that focus in on the life journey of the person. Again, from my own experience growing up in the mid-1990s, that is not where we were. It is only in the past couple of years that I have seen movement begin towards that. We need that overall organisation to be able to have the expertise in-house as well as have experts come in who are not just trained but also have lived experience and are able to talk and guide people through that journey.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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No pressure; it is another business opportunity.
Professor Tom Cooney:
It is good to see the Senator. He has been kind to speak on my course for the past number of years. On the course, we have two types of guest speaker. One is an expert in a particular area and the other is a role model. The role models have been incredibly powerful in making change. People keep referencing how they can now see a pathway because the role model has talked about their experiences. Mr. McCann and Mr. Hennessy have spoken on the course.
On who could do what, if we go back to Enterprise Ireland and the women's entrepreneurship, what happened? There is a single webpage and a single person championing it - that was the resourcing. They then put in some dedicated programmes that targeted women entrepreneurs only. Regarding getting started, it can be just one webpage on thelocalenterprise.iewebsite listing the tailored supports available but also a single person who would champion that within the system and go to the local enterprise offices, LEOs, ask what they are doing, go to the website and ask whether it is accessible for everyone, and come to us and the advocacy organisations and ask what we are doing to support people with a disability. It would be the most obvious location to put a support system or a central point of reference to support people with a disability. It does not take a whole lot of money to make that happen.
Regarding policy, we have three choices. I have been looking at policies in other countries. Basically, the OECD would argue that Ireland needs an inclusive entrepreneurship policy; not just one for people with disability, but one that would also address immigrants, seniors, marginalised youth, ex-offenders, Travellers and other marginalised and disadvantaged communities. An inclusive entrepreneurship strategy by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is one solution. A second option is what we are kind of currently doing, which is within the national disability strategy, there would be something on self-employment as a target. We have done that for the previous two plans and, as I said earlier, out of five actions, only two have been completed, one of which happened because of the course. If we are going to have actions, let us action them. The third option would be the Finnish model, which has no strategy, but basically states that within everything they do, they have to be inclusive of people with disability. Self-employment is not a strategy but transportation and all the other strategies or policies that they design have to be inclusive of everyone and, therefore, there is no need for a tailored or dedicated strategy for people with a disability in terms of self-employment. With respect to policy, those are our three options. However, at the moment, we do not have the first, the third is a vision I cannot see us getting to anytime soon and the second, the national disability strategy, will only work if we action what we write down on paper, and the LEOs can lead on this.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Pass on my regards to our colleagues.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Unfortunately, I have to go to a meeting now. I thank the witnesses for their testimony.
Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It is fascinating listening to the three witnesses because they are coming from different perspectives.
Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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From their point of view and from listening to their experiences, what they are providing is not known; we have hidden it. It is good news and it should be known.
Two issues are coming through clearly. First, we have an attitude within social welfare that if someone even has an opportunity to make a few pounds, straight away, he or she will be punished for that.
My view is that there should be a graduation. If people are in business, they do their first year's work, present their accounts the next year and, by October, present their accounts as to what they did. There is a graduation in reporting depending on whether people are making money; they might be awfully busy but might not be making money. It is important that all current supports, few as they are, are left in position for probably up to three years to see if a business can actually work and if it is making money. If companies are making money, are doing well and are successful, they do not mind at that stage if they lose some of the supports they have. It is about the fear to take that shot to try to do something. Mr. Hennessy's testimony has concerned exactly that. He has been more or less punished for even thinking about doing things and how he would get supports. The supports he needs in his business are different from the supports Mr. McCann needs in his business. It is about how we individualise that support to reach a person and his or her company, which they are trying to sort out.
I agree that the LEOs should be a one-stop shop for people to access information in the regions. It should not just be peripheral information. There should be a pathway or roadmap people can see before they start to see the things they have to do. LEOs would be good at that. We have the model, when we went for gender and women in business. We just have to repeat that model. It is not reinventing any wheel.
I talked to a man this morning who is an amputee. He talked about employment. The bike-to-work scheme, for instance, should be extended to include users of what he called tricycles. They should be able to apply for that scheme as well. He gave me examples of things that are so tunnelled. We do not ask how we can give other people the benefit of having a mode of transport to work that is, first, healthy and, second, gives them the ability to access work when there is no public transport. These are only small things but when we talk to people like Mr. Hennessy and Mr. McCann, we get the sense that it is frustrating that rules and regulations have been corralled into a tunnel and we dare not look over the parapet.
The Departments of Social Protection and Enterprise, Trade and Employment need to get together to have a chat about how best to protect people who are brave enough to make that move to start up a business. Whether they are able-bodied or disabled, it is a big decision. I would like to learn more about the course Professor Cooney is teaching and the model of it, which is great. My only regret is that we did not have this session before we brought in the Department of Social Protection officials - we did not have the representatives reversed around. I am better versed today than I was last week. It is thanks to the witnesses that we are like that. I do not know whether they want to make any comments to me. I do not have questions for them. They have given me, and every other member, all the things I need to start a thought-provoking process to see how we can engage. As was said, it is the politicians who have to change things and not the witnesses. We have to change them. They are telling us how to do that. It is not a big ask. I thank them very much.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
To make it clear, I do not know whether people know that disabled people can only work ten or 20 hours a week in business to get benefits. There are two reasons for that: their own capability or the Department sets down their capacity. However, a 40-hour week is taken into consideration for benefits for able-bodied people. If you are doing 20 hours, it takes a hell of a lot longer to make your business succeed and turn over a profit. The Department does not think of that.
Professor Tom Cooney:
I will make one comment. When the Department of Social Protection officials were before the committee, I am sure they highlighted the back to work enterprise allowance scheme as one of its flagship schemes that supports people with disabilities. What they probably did not mention is that in year one, people receive 75% of that benefit, in year two it is 50%, and in year three they fall off a cliff edge. The Deputy talked about the graduation that might happen, but the back to work enterprise allowance scheme does not do that. People who are on it say they suddenly fall off a cliff edge.
Mr. Matt McCann:
For a lot of businesses, it takes time to get going. Even at the three-year stage, some businesses can struggle to make ends meet. There may be a case-by-case basis to look at what the business plan is, whether development is needed within the business to build out the product and so on, or whether it is a service business. There should be a case-by-case approach to that.
Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the representatives for being here. I apologise for missing much of the discussion. I was next door at the meeting of the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I am very sorry if I ask questions that have already been asked.
I have a particular interest in the employment side of things when it comes to people with disability. Last week, officials from the Department of Social Protection appeared before the committee. Many of us asked them about supports for entrepreneurship. One question I asked was whether we need a specific support for entrepreneurs with disabilities so that we can encourage entrepreneurs without sending people over that cliff edge we talked about or taking away that safety net of knowing they have payments coming to them. The officials from the Department basically told me, "No", and that we do not need specific grants or support programmes because loads of these kinds of programmes are already in place for entrepreneurs. They are correct there are lots of programmes. We talked about LEOs and Enterprise Ireland. There is a lot going on in this space but the point I made is that people with disabilities, by their very nature, often require additional support.
Professor Cooney pointed out it is not just about people with disabilities. A whole heap of people would benefit from an inclusion entrepreneurship policy. If we do not provide additional support for people with disabilities who want to become entrepreneurs and will, hopefully, some day run their own businesses, employ other people, and come up with innovative solutions that we as a society and economy can benefit from, we are denying everybody. We are denying those people who will someday be employed by them the opportunity to be, we are denying their product or service to hit market and, most importantly, we are quenching ambition. That is not what we should be doing as a State. We should be empowering and enabling ambition.
I will put the same question I put to the Department of Social Protection to the three representatives. Do we need a specific support for entrepreneurs with disabilities so that we can encourage entrepreneurs without sending people over a cliff edge or taking away that safety net of payments?
Professor Tom Cooney:
I will give the recent OECD publication, Policy Brief on Supporting Persons with Disabilities in Entrepreneurship, to the Chair, for the record. It was published in March. One of its key recommendations is to "Use income support systems to support entrepreneurship". I talked to past participants on the course. The overwhelming response was that something should be done about disability support services. The welfare benefit trap remains the single biggest challenge. The Department of Social Protection is in denial if it is claiming that we do not need supports.
Do we need a specific support? I am not so sure. The system needs to be looked at rather than putting particular individual supports in place. The system of how we support people with a disability needs to be looked at; as does how we support them into self-employment if that is their chosen career path. At the moment, it is a barrier. Anyone who says otherwise is in complete denial.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and for their contributions. I want to declare that Eddie Hennessy is a personal friend of mine. Mr. Hennessy touched on the fact he was a full-time athlete. He played hurling and football. He represented Ireland at the highest level in judo and was Irish champion. In response to a question earlier, Professor Cooney explained how Mr. Hennessy had to do it himself. Mr. Hennessy technically died when he suffered his stroke. I remember when I saw him in hospital. To see where he is now is a miracle. When we look at the man he is now and consider where he came from - we speak about role models - what he has accomplished is unbelievable. His wife Margaret and his daughter Gráinne have supported him.
I do not know how many other people could have had the stroke and medical issues Mr. Hennessy had and got to where he is now. It is only because he was a full-time athlete. He was so driven. It is unbelievable to see him. I remember that when he got out to cycle, he could barely walk or stand. He got on the bike, however. At the time, Mr. Hennessy lived on the Sunbeam hill in Farranree. If anyone knows Cork, the will know that it is built on hills. The hill in question is very steep. Mr. Hennessy came out his door and went down that hill. Sean Kelly would not go down it. I remember it. I asked him if he was crazy. His speech at the time was not as good as it is now. Mr. Hennessy got cycling with no supports. Where were the wraparound services for a person to do rehabilitation to get there? It is only because he was the man he is that he did it. One day when he was out cycling, Mr. Hennessy fell over and broke his ankle because he could not stand. He had to sort that out and he got back on the bike again.
I remember coming out of City Hall after a Cork City Council meeting one Monday night. I was walking across the bridge and there was this guy with a camera. Eddie Hennessy had joined art to his cycling. I was having the crack with him about the photography. Then he set up a business. The one thing about Irish people as a whole, and certainly about Cork and the north side of Cork, is that people wanted to support Mr. Hennessy. Then people realised how brilliant a photographer he is. He was in huge demand. People were booking him two years ahead such was the level of his photography and his professionalism. He did all of this with the disability he has. Mr. Hennessy did everything to become an entrepreneur. He set it up but the system broke him down. Mr. Hennessy's story has been documented a few times and it is very inspirational but the end of it is so disheartening. If someone can do everything the way Eddie Hennessy did but cannot make it, I do not know who can.
One of the first questions I put to the Minister when I became a Deputy came about because Mr. Hennessy asked me about supporting disabled entrepreneurs. I tabled parliamentary questions and did everything I could in order to try to get an answer. There were times when it looked like the Department was going to come up with a system or a scheme but it never got there.
Mr. Hennessy said that it is too late for him now and that he is looking at other people down the road. That is why he is involved in this campaign. Professor Cooney outlined the figures. There are 643,000 people with disabilities. That is almost 14% of the population. This is why it is so important to come up with a solution. Professor Cooney spoke about a website so that people know about it. I am a Deputy. Perhaps I am remiss when it comes to my job but if someone with a disability approached me today and said they wanted to be an entrepreneur and asked where they could go, I would not be able to tell them. I would have to look and I am not sure that I could find it. There should be a dedicated website to let people know. It should be advertised. There should be pathways created for people to get into entrepreneurship.
There should also be supports. Mr. McCann and Professor Cooney made a point about the cut-off and people falling off a cliff. We have a resource here. The one thing I know about people with disabilities, and perhaps it is not everyone and I do not want to simplify it, is that we are dealing with individuals who have overcome severe adversity. They have built up a strength that puts them in a great position if they decide to set up their own businesses and become entrepreneurs. They have inner strength.
Mr. Hennessy touched on equality and Professor Cooney spoke about a one-stop shop. Many of the asks are not big. They would not cost a fortune. This needs a change of attitude towards supporting disabled entrepreneurs. This is why today's hearing is very important. Their voices should be heard and the Department should hear it. There are probably very good people in the Department but the problem is the red tape and bureaucracy. Earlier Mr. Hennessy made a point about contacting people. People should not have to fight for it. It is the same with all disability services, such as children looking for therapies and school places. Everything seems to be a fight when people have a disability or a member of the family has a disability. I hope we do everything we can to change the system and attitudes to support disabled entrepreneurs.
On a personal note, I am very proud to be sitting across from Eddie Hennessy. I never thought I would be here. After everything he went through, Mr. Hennessy is here giving evidence at an Oireachtas committee meeting. I know his family and friends will be very proud of him. I have only touched on a tiny bit of Mr. Hennessy's story. The adversity he has come through is phenomenal. When we listen to him, consider how eloquently he speaks, particularly in view of his disability, and see how thoughtfully he prepared his submission, we know how much he cares. It is a tragedy that he could not keep his business going because he was blocked. I hope he is successful in helping other people to do it.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair endorsement, Mr. Hennessy. There is nothing in it that I could disagree with, not one syllable. Well done.
Professor Tom Cooney:
I concur with Deputy Gould. Mr. Hennessy is an amazing role model. I was very fortunate to meet him a number of years ago. He keeps us all going. Sometimes when we see emails from Mr. Hennessy we wonder what it will be this time. He is why we are here.
I will add to Deputy Gould's comments.
We know people with disability have lower levels of education, employment and pay. All of those become additional disadvantages in terms of starting their own business. Less education means a lesser skill set, less employment, particularly managerial employment, means less industry experience and less pay means a lesser likelihood of having capital to start a business. We also know from reports this year the additional cost of living for people with disability. All of those combined make it extraordinarily difficult for people with disability to start their own business. When people like Mr. McCann and Mr. Hennessy break through all of that, they are going against the system. As Deputy Gould said, it broke Mr. Hennessy in the end. That is unfortunate for all of us. It is unfortunate for Mr. Hennessy and his family but also for society.
Mr. Matt McCann:
I echo the admiration for Mr. Hennessy. Every person with a disability goes through similar challenges and a similar journey. There are tens of thousands of stories across the country that have not been heard. It is about having the opportunity to be represented and seen in that journey. It is not just in entrepreneurship but all across society. There is a distinct lack of representation of disability across the spectrum. As Deputy Gould said, we are not asking for a lot. It is just about representation and putting forward the vision. Everyone can see where they want to go. They are not asking the questions I was asking such as "Where can I find someone to talk to?" My vision is that in five years, there will be so many more examples of disabled entrepreneurs out there that they will not have to come to me or Mr. Hennessy as an example. It would just be there. It would be about equal representation.
A point was made earlier about equality versus equity. This is about levelling the playing field. It was hard enough without having to deal with supports coming back at you. They are not the supports then. If we can action a fraction of what we have spoken about, we will help so many people in the country.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I thank Deputy Gould. He has been there for me. It is disheartening to see the disregard for the findings of many reports, including this one, shown by the relevant Departments, while both Opposition and Government parties are not fighting hard or enough for our rights. Maybe there is one strong email or a slightly weaker email with the response from the Departments but then they fade out and you have to do it again.
Professor Cooney brought up the flexi-job. There is nothing new about that. That was introduced in Denmark in 1998 and we are only looking at it now. We are not even looking at it.
I hope this meeting is not mere optics. I encourage committee members to challenge the Department with the same fight and manner of questioning clearly seen in other issues in Leinster House this week.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I call Senator O'Loughlin. I was monitoring her disappearances from the screen.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Chair. My sincere apologies. I have had to be up and down three times to the Seanad this morning already. I appreciate the witnesses being here. Though I did not hear all of the opening contributions, I read everything.
I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. McCann in 2018 when he won the LEO award in Kildare and went on to win a regional and national award. Without wanting to sound patronising, I know how proud everybody was at those awards in Naas. It has been fantastic to see him going from strength to strength and to hear his story today.
Mr. Hennessy is equally inspirational. I read his statement and realised sadly he had to give up his business because of all the blocks, having done so well and gotten so many awards. When I came to that bit, I was heartbroken. He is a terrific role model, even hearing him speak in some of the interactions here. He made the point that sometimes politicians just accept the answer Departments give; he is right. He said he refused to accept them; he is right. We have to take inspiration from him in asking hard questions and making strong demands.
I was very involved in setting up the OWL scheme in 2016 when I was first elected to the Seanad. I have a connection with Kare in Kildare. I have a brother who has Down's syndrome so I have always had an involvement there. To date it has been an incredible experience to watch the interns grow and develop. Many have gotten permanent jobs here and outside. I spoke to a parent last week at the graduation. While there is Project SEARCH in Tallaght and Naas hospitals, there are many Departments which do not run schemes like that. They really equip people with an opportunity to have a life like I have. I have an opportunity to get up in the morning, go to work, earn an income and feel in some way validated by the choices I have made. That is what we want.
It is incredible work that Professor Cooney does. It is so important. I take on board the six actions he recommends we take. I think he will find we will support that.
We recognise that self-employment and entrepreneurship are particularly important. There is a distinct correlation involving the percentage of people that go that route. I think it is 14.9% and there are 14.9% with disabilities. That means it is working better for people with disabilities because there are so many blocks in the way anyway. Surely it is something we should put more resources into, without a shadow of a doubt.
I think the partnership agreement with Open Doors has been successful. I take note of the issues relating to the social protection barriers that need to be addressed. That is a key issue for the committee. As regards the means testing, it is difficult for a disabled person to put together the capital required. The point was made also about the difficulties in obtaining startup capital due to poor credit ratings. Clúid is a great organisation as regards giving loans to social enterprises and in respect of various housing schemes. I am just wondering out loud, but can something be done with Clúid or a group like it that would specifically support enterprises for people with disabilities? The point was very well made that so much was put in place to support women going back into employment etc., and we need to look at measures now. Of course, the loss of income from social security benefits is a problem. We come across that quite a bit. I wonder, and the witnesses might enlighten me, about what the Department of Social Protection needs to consider as regards the restructuring of long-term disability payments and how it could simplify the system and take account of the findings of the cost-of-disability report under its own analysis that is due to be published.
In addition, Professor Cooney pointed out that employers get plenty of supports to take on people with disabilities but self-employed people with disabilities do not get any supports, even the assistive technology we rightly have in schools now. What are the witnesses' views and considerations in that regard?
It was pointed out that there is a need to change the culture of low expectations as regards people with disabilities. I fully agree because, unfortunately, we tend to have self-fulfilling prophecies in this area. People may not have the opportunity to see the role models that both Mr. Hennessy and Mr. McCann very clearly are, and there are other organisations such as Izzy Wheels, which I happen to know as well.
I have a particular question for Professor Cooney. I note the funding he has had for his online course runs out in 2024. Does he have funding to continue to roll that out?
Professor Cooney mentioned flexi-jobs in Denmark. I would be interested to hear a little more about that.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We will start with Professor Cooney and Mr. McCann and give the last word to Mr. Hennessy.
Professor Tom Cooney:
With regard to funding, again, we do not want to come here with just problems; we want to look for solutions. I think the simplest solution to this would be Microfinance Ireland. It would be the appropriate body. I have spoken to the CEO, Des McCarthy, about this previously. I know he is kind of open to some sort of scheme. Again, we need a tailored scheme for people with disabilities. Many of the types of businesses getting started up require relatively low levels of capital and frequently cannot get that money from the bank because they do not have a credit history, going back to the reasons I spoke about a while ago. Therefore, Microfinance Ireland, to me, would be the appropriate solution. If people are looking for more money, then, obviously, the LEOs, Enterprise Ireland or the banks would be more appropriate. In the first instance, however, Microfinance Ireland would be the solution.
Our programme does not have any funding secured beyond 2024, but our ambition is that if we keep doing it well and keep creating demand, it will be a case of "if you build it, they will come".
Sorry. The Senator's final question was-----
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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It was about flexi-jobs in Denmark, which Professor Cooney mentioned.
Professor Tom Cooney:
I apologise. The scheme is referred to in the OECD report as an example of good practice. Basically, a person with a disability is assessed in terms of how many hours per week they can work and their capacity to work. Then, based on that assessment, the employer pays X percentage - we will say 50% - and the state pays the remainder. It is therefore a combination payment. The system also allows for self-employment. Depending on how much a company makes, the state supplements it to a certain level - let us call it a universal income - so the person is assured of a certain level of income, no matter what happens, whether he or she is self-employed or employed. That is basically the notion. Should the person need to step out of employment and then come back in, the scheme is flexible and allows for that movement in and out of the system due to ill-health or health issues. Those are the two great benefits to it: it guarantees a certain level of income and allows for flexibility regarding health issues. I will provide a copy of the report to the Chair. There is more detail in it.
Mr. Matt McCann:
It is great to see Senator O'Loughlin again.
Yes, that competition, Ireland's Best Young Entrepreneur, was a fantastic opportunity. The competition, unfortunately, is in some sort of stasis at the moment. It is really disheartening to see that because, to be honest, while the win was great, it was actually the boot camp and the direct support from a LEO that took me from a computer science student who did not know how to string two words together in public to the point where, just before the regional competition, as I remember, we had an opportunity to meet with the Minister and, unfortunately, I could not go to that event because I was given the opportunity to speak at the United Nations. I know that it was the support I was given at that boot camp that gave me the confidence to do public speaking and go to that event. If we could have competitions like that back, it would not only give that support and develop that network for young entrepreneurs but also give that confidence to disabled entrepreneurs to just go in and apply for such competitions. I did that. I did not think I would get that far, and here we are now. It was a matter of being given that chance. I urge the Government to look at bringing back Ireland's Best Young Entrepreneur because that is one of the key reasons I am here today.
Mr. Eddie Hennessy:
I notice there are no specific supports for disabled entrepreneurs. All the supports are catered to disabled employees or others. There are no specific supports for disabled entrepreneurs. If we could get one support specifically for disabled entrepreneurs, we could start, but we are always picking up scraps.
Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Hennessy, Mr. McCann and Professor Cooney.
Having listened to their evidence and to the questions of the members, I go back to a phrase I use at all stages: the attitude of the State. The attitude of the State is that there cannot be disabled entrepreneurs, and that is why we have to move as strongly as we can to put even one support in place, as Mr. Hennessy put it. It is a question of attitude. Every time we meet disabled people, their communities or their advocates, we hear the same thing, which is that the State has an almost blocking attitude to anything that would be enabling. There is energy and excitement among people with disabilities. If we tapped into these, we would certainly be making society better.
I referred to the Danish model several times. On the basis of a scheme set up by the Department of Social Protection about 20 years ago to allow low-income farmers to have off-farm incomes, I believe it has the tools. We spoke about this briefly last week. The scheme achieved more than intended at the time; it enabled support for the families of people working in fishing and farming. Bearing in mind that we talk about falling off the cliff, the statutory instruments signed at the time by the Minister of the day to allow for the scheme could be the basis for giving people security for five years. I am still trying to perfect my thinking on this. I spoke to colleagues last week about the possibility of having a topic on it, but I still have not perfected our ask regarding what we are trying to get the Department to do. If it is not very clear, we will get a fudged answer. There are mechanisms within the law and statutory instruments to allow a scheme to be developed.
To go back to the closing point made by the witnesses, which was on having even one support, we must ensure that people with disabilities are treated equally and given a fair chance in society. Their expertise should be developed and their abilities should be nurtured. This makes for a holistic society. In this regard, we should remember Maslow's theory. What I have described is so important for people with disabilities, and we need to strive to achieve it.
I thank the witnesses sincerely for their evidence. I know that appearing here was not easy but it is what empowers us, as members of a committee representing people with disabilities, to do our job as best we can. We are all about trying to make a difference. I sincerely thank the members for their ongoing engagement and, of course, our team, who do excellent work for us.