Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise to the witnesses, who we had to hold up for a few moments. As we normally do not like to keep people waiting, I thank them for their patience. Apologies have been received from Deputy Munster. The witnesses are all welcome and I remind all those who are in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege with respect to the presentations they make to the committee. This means the witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Furthermore, it is not the role of the committee to make findings or fact about a person who is not a Member of the Oireachtas that could impinge on their good name or reputation. I ask members to be mindful of this in examination of the issues in question.

Today, we are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Mary Henry, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, to examine its financial statements for 2021. We will be speaking with the following representatives of Inland Fisheries Ireland: Mr. Francis O'Donnell, chief executive officer, Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services, Mr. Barry Fox, head of operations, Dr. Cathal Gallagher, head of research and development, and Ms Róisín Bradley, head of human resources. We are also joined by the following official from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, Mr. Denis Maher, principal officer. To begin with, I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Inland Fisheries Ireland was established in 2010 amalgamating the previous regional fisheries boards with the Central Fisheries Board. Its remit is to protect, manage and conserve Ireland’s inland fisheries and sea-angling resources. IFI's income in 2021 amounted to €31.7 million. This was down from €36.9 million in 2020. Approximately three quarters of the income comes from Exchequer grant funding and the grant income was down in 2021 mainly to reduce IFI’s high cash balance at the end of 2020.

IFI’s expenditure in 2021 amounted to €36.8 million and this was up from €33.9 million in 2020. More than 70% of expenditure, or €26.6 million, was in respect of remuneration and other pay costs. Some €8.6 million was spent on operations with €1.6 million spent on administration.

I certified the 2021 financial statements on 29 March 2023 and issued a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to a number of items in my audit report. First, I drew attention to certain governance concerns. The chairperson of the IFI board resigned in April 2022. A new chairperson was appointed in May 2022 and resigned in January 2023. There were a further four resignations from the board during 2022 and in January 2023. As a result, the board became unable to reach the required quorum to meet and to make decisions, including approval of the annual financial statements. In February 2023, the remaining board members were removed by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications on a no-fault basis. Two persons were appointed for a period of up to six months to perform the functions of IFI pending the reconstitution of the board.

A number of disclosures were made in 2022 to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and to IFI. These disclosures resulted in the commissioning of a succession of reviews and reports. The statement on internal control outlines the status of these reviews at the date of signing of the financial statements. Following one internal review, the chief executive reported a potential fraud to An Garda Síochána in 2022. Due to an administration error, 16 vehicles leased by IFI in 2021 were uninsured for a period. The matter only came to light when one of the vehicles was involved in a road traffic accident. IFI anticipates that legal action may be taken against it over the incident. The financial liability accruing from the accident was uncertain at the time the audit was being signed off.

Finally, I drew attention to a change in the chief executive’s normal place of work from IFI’s headquarters in Donegal to the regional office in Ballyshannon in November 2021. This has implications for the claiming of expenses by the chief executive. We found no contemporaneous written record of the proposal for the work location change, or of its financial implications or of a decision in that regard by the board, which is responsible for setting the terms and conditions of the chief executive.

The number and complexity of the issues that have arisen in IFI contributed to a delay in the completion of the audit of the 2021 annual financial statements. The audit of the 2022 annual financial statements is currently in progress and I expect earlier completion of that work. Separately, my office is further examining a number of control and value-for-money issues in IFI and I may present a report on any significant findings from that work, if that is warranted.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. Mr. O'Donnell has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Gabhaim buíochas as ucht an deis a bheith i láthair anseo inniu chun aon cheisteanna cuí a bhfuil baint acu le hIascach Intíre Éireann agus an ráiteas airgeadais don bhliain 2021 a fhreagairt. I dtús báire, cuirfidh mé in iúl don choiste go bhfuil sé ar intinn ag Iascach Intíre Éireann a bheith oscailte agus go dtí an pointe inniu. Muna bhfuil muid ábalta ceisteanna a fhreagairt, tabharfaidh muid freagraí i bhfoirm scríofa chomh luath agus is féidir. I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it today and discuss our annual report for 2021 and financial statements.

I am joined by supporting witnesses: Mr. Barry Fox, head of operations; Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services; Dr. Cathal Gallagher, head of research and development; and Ms Róisín Bradley, head of human resources. I will keep my remarks to some overarching topics and relevant issues regarding the financial statements and accounts for 2021.

We are a team of just over 300 full-time staff comprising fisheries protection staff, development staff, environmental officers, research staff and, very importantly, an excellent administrative back-up team. I am very grateful to our passionate and accomplished employees, who see their roles as a vocation. Many have given decades of dedicated public service to Inland Fisheries Ireland, and are national and international specialists in their respective fields.

In 2021, our protection and environmental teams were extremely active in addressing illegal fishing, pollution incidents, fish kills and habitat destruction in and around freshwater systems across Ireland. IFI delivered over 167,000 hours of anti-poaching patrolling activities. We concluded 82 cases for fisheries offences and commenced a further 103 cases in 2021. We also concluded 23 cases for environmental offences and commenced a further 13 cases in the same period. Most of the latter were associated with fish kills and serious water pollution incidents.

In 2021, IFI carried out river habitat restoration on 21 km of river channel, treated 11 ha of lake infested with lagarosiphon, an alien invasive aquatic plant species that has serious ecological impacts and may spread to other water bodies, and carried out maintenance on 34 km of river channel habitat. In the same year IFI staff audited 2,800 angler access structures and carried out maintenance on 510 structures to ensure the public were safe. This is just a snapshot of what we did in 2021.

IFI, like all public service organisations, must adhere to the highest standards in governance. IFI has made governance mistakes which have overshadowed the excellent public service we provide. The shortcomings in terms of good governance, for which we apologise today, were not deliberate and not deceitful in any way. Today we welcome this opportunity to explain the causes of these issues, and provide the requisite background and context to the committee. It is important for the public to know this.

Following extensive internal reviews of processes and procedures, and associated remedial action, IFI is operating within a very strong corporate governance environment. The external governance review of IFI will commence shortly and our section 18 board appointees are overseeing this process. This will strengthen IFI governance processes to a very high standard.

Separately, but in addition to these significant operational risks, we discovered alleged fraud within IFI in 2022 which is now subject to a criminal investigation by An Garda Síochána. I believe this occurred over a significant amount of time in Inland Fisheries Ireland but does not pertain to any serving staff member of IFI. The investigation also relates to the harassment and intimidation of the executive over a 17-month period. This has taken its toll on colleagues across IFI. I will endeavour to brief the committee to the best of my ability on this issue. As this is the subject of a live Garda investigation, I will remain cautious on this matter.

Inland Fisheries Ireland is overstretched and has been for a long time. Since 2009 our staffing complement has been reduced by 30%. We have statutory responsibility for Ireland’s 74,000 km of rivers and streams, together with 128,000 ha of lake systems. We patrol a coastline of 9,700 km and patrol the marine environment out to 12 nautical miles from the base lines. Our area of operation is extensive. We face significant operational challenges, especially the lack of staffing in specialist areas, which impedes our ability to respond more effectively and efficiently to the pressing needs of an environmental agency in an ever-changing ecological world.

These challenges are not an excuse for mistakes that have been made. The challenges are however a reality. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has stated that IFI needs to be “adequately resourced” to “build and sustain capacity for both existing functions and an enhanced role.” The year 2021 was very challenging for IFI due to Covid-19 restrictions, and the last 18 months have been equally difficult for the organisation. Climate change, the pollution of our water bodies, the destruction of freshwater and terrestrial habitats, the proliferation of non-native invasive species and the impacts of aquaculture on migrating salmonids is making our role extremely challenging as an environmental organisation.

I was born in 1971. Wild salmon numbers returning to Ireland in that year were 1.2 million. In 2022 that number was reduced to 171,000, which represents a reduction of 86%. Arctic charr, a species that was encountered by the first inhabitants of this island, is now extinct from Lough Conn, County Mayo and faces a similar fate in other lake systems. The freshwater eels that were once prolific in the streams we played in as children are now facing extinction. Wild brown trout lakes across Ireland are disappearing due to the introduction of non-native species and the pollution associated with excessive farming practices.

IFI must be expanded and strengthened so we can deliver on all that is required of us by extant national legislation and the ever-increasing burdens of EU directives and regulations. Those regulations serve to protect nature. Nature has no voice other than the human one.

I am very proud of the progressive and innovative work we do, and the value it gives to the State, to our citizens and to the resource we protect. IFI could not do this without our committed staff, stakeholder support and the excellent support we receive daily from our parent Department, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

I and my team will address the committee members' oral questions and will share with them any written information they request in this session at the first available opportunity. I thank members for their attention this morning.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for appearing today and I thank Mr. O'Donnell for the opening statement. It is unfortunate that no board members are here today, but that is where we find ourselves. This organisation is receiving €27 million in Exchequer funding but does not have a functioning board in place. The witnesses have come to the Committee of Public Accounts today to ask for an expansion in its services, or at least that is part of the narrative.

When preparing for today's meeting, I asked somebody where the IFI is headquartered - I did not know the building. The reply I got was that it was halfway between Ballymagash and Killinaskully. That is not a good look for an organisation that is making a case here for increased staffing and funding. Many of the issues we will address here would sit very comfortably in the world of the D'Unbelievables or Hall's Pictorial Weekly. Even the corporate slogan invites an element of satire, "It's about the fish".

The protective crews are not getting out when they should. We do not have the trained RIB drivers to get out in the nighttime. Invasive species are allowed to get out of hand before being brought back under control. Lapsed insurance policies are not noticed until there is a crash. There are property leasing arrangements to employees which could be described as loose at best. Whatever about the fish, there is definitely something fishy happening here. As usual in such situations, at the end of the day the taxpayer will be left on the hook here.

IFI has a corporate governance structure that is in freefall, with mass resignations from the board leaving a board that is non-quorate and non-functioning so that the Minister needs to step in and take the nuclear option, essentially. There have been a series of internal reports, protected disclosures and a Garda investigation relating to serious allegations of fraud. There are questions about dormant accounts funding. We have sense that taxpayers' money is being thrown around like snuff at a wake.

In the wider context of the request for increased staffing, there is no doubt that the role and remit of IFI are changing radically as we respond to the urgency of the climate and biodiversity crisis. As Mr. O'Donnell outlined in his opening statement, there are increased pressures on our waterways. Our fish populations are also in freefall. I know that the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has called on IFI to be more ambitious and there is a need for more ambition. Its business case to Mazars referred to a 61% increase in staffing to go from approximately 320 to closer to 520. I absolutely understand the need for that level of ambition. I would love to be going to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, ahead of the budget to say that I support IFI's request for this extra funding, but it is difficult.

It is difficult as a Member of the Oireachtas and as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, which has oversight of the spending of public money, to have confidence in an organisation and to make a case for increased funding. There is a whole range of issues here and I am aware that time is limited.

I will begin with Mr. O'Donnell and the issue of his work base and where he was working from. I think there are questions for Ms Bradley as well and for Ms Campion. The Comptroller and Auditor General takes issue with how adequately this is reflected in the statement of internal control. The decision to move to Ballyshannon was based on the fact that it is closer to Galway. I am very fond of Donegal but that is the first time I have ever seen anybody make a case for moving to Donegal because it is closer to anything. It might be closer to Galway, but Inland Fisheries Ireland also operates in my catchment area of Waterford. That is not close to Donegal. I believe it was agreed by the head of HR. Ms Bradley signed off on this. Could I ask for the rationale first?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

The rationale for it is that it was 2021 and we were in the middle of a pandemic. As the chief of the organisation, I was asking my staff to stay at home, to work from home and to work from regional bases if possible. We have staff normally based in Dublin, for example, in the research department. They could be from Cork or Waterford. We have seven regional offices. It made absolutely no sense to ask them to come in to headquarters, which was only open once a week at that point. I was living in Donegal. I would only have access to secure IT systems one day a week. At that point in time, I was also paying invoices on behalf of the taxpayer that ranged from €30,000 to €900,000. I did not have a secure system at home to do that.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Could Mr. O'Donnell not have set up a secure system in Dublin? As a case in point, my staff did not travel to Dublin during the pandemic but I did.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I would like to explain. The office was only open one day a week, so I would have to travel to Dublin once a week to undertake all of that work, whereas in most cases I would need two to three days working in a secure environment because I was handling various different sensitive issues within IFI.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I will just point out that the statement of internal control does not detail any of this.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It may not have detailed that.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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And there are no contemporaneous written accounts.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It was agreed at that time by the chairperson and the head of HR. The Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out clearly that it should have gone to a full board decision. It was done with the best of intent. There was no malice intended, and it was done for the right reasons. As soon as it was pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General I took corrective action on that. I accept that.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The decision to revert back to the Dublin headquarters only happened when the Minister made the section 18 appointees.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is correct. The position of the section 18 appointees was that once my base changed to Ballyshannon, my expenses were being signed off by the then chair, and a second chair thereafter. The section 18 appointees were concerned with the period from when they started.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Could I ask Ms Campion about the financial implications of the move? How much did it cost the taxpayer?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Just over €5,000 in terms of the amount spent during the period of the base being in Donegal. Since the section 18s were appointed, more than €1,000 has been repaid.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The figure I have in front of me is up to €5,400. Is that accurate? A total of €1,000 of it has been repaid.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

It was €1,000 of the amount that was claimed since the section 18s were appointed. That is the full amount that was due.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. I want to move on to the issue of protection teams in general but the protection team in Ballyshannon, County Donegal in particular. A difficulty was identified with the activity of that protection team. It might be a question for Mr. O'Donnell, but Mr. Fox might wish to respond also.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Could I defer to Ms Bradley on this one?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Our teams are fairly small and I do not think it is appropriate to call out one particular team because the staff would be easily identifiable. What I would say is that-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Was there an investigation into one particular team?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Was there not an internal process whereby this was checked?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No. There was no performance investigation with regard to the Ballyshannon team.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Have I made an error there? Was there a performance investigation into a team in a different area?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No, what I would say to the Deputy is that there were some discussions about a number of areas around the country where they needed additional resources. For example, we will choose the north because the Deputy has spoken about it. Our corporate plan has placed a focus on development, in particular around the assessment of barriers to fish migration, and other development duties. Because our resources are so stretched, it is difficult to stretch them across protection and development. There were some protection issues that we were concerned about, so we refocused the team. We put in a pilot scheme called a mobile support unit, which put out a call of interest to staff, if they wanted to participate. The idea was that it would be a central mobile support unit that could go to any area in the country that needed additional resources. To be clear; there was no performance investigation into anyone in Ballyshannon.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. I want to turn to fleet management in particular. I think it is the second biggest expenditure outside of salaries. I understand the need for maintenance of the fleet. The valuation for plant and equipment comes to €21.4 million, which is substantial. To a certain extent I can understand it. I just want to get the right page in front of me here. There is a question around how many vehicles there are. How many people does IFI have in the field? I know there are 320 employees. How many of those employees are in the field?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Slightly over 200.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Are there slightly over 200 vehicles?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I should say that there are also another 30 to 40 people in research and they also have vehicles because they do fieldwork for six months of the year.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We are pretty close to a one-on-one ratio in terms of vehicles to staff.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

What I would say to the Deputy is that we have done some research with other agencies that are quite like us in terms of the use of vehicles, for example, the Garda. This was at the time when we decided we wanted to bring in a telemetric system so that we could monitor each of the vehicles. We asked how the Garda manage vehicle utilisation. They said that the vehicle is a tool and they do not monitor the tool, they monitor the individual performance of the officer.

We do have 205 vehicles, but 31% of our fleet comprises 4X4 crew cabs. These vehicles are utilised for specific heavy-tow operations and off-road protection and development activities. Some 22% are sport utility vehicles, SUVs, for higher ground clearance and all-wheel drives and another 22% are cars and vans, and then we have a number of special types such as tractors, dumper trucks and stuff like that. It is not the case that every employee has a vehicle.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I accept that. Given the type of work IFI does, I accept the fact that there is a need for specialist vehicles but it just seems a very high ratio. It also seems that there is a very high figure included for general car hire; €350,000.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Again, we have spent a lot of time looking at what is the best way to meet the needs of the operations, in line with what type of vehicles are needed. Because we have what we consider a high season between March and September-October, which is when we bring in our seasonal staff, we have a lot more staff in the operations section of the organisation. Researchers are now out doing fieldwork and then other staff, such as people in my team, might need to travel around the country. We use pool cars. If somebody needed a vehicle to perform a duty, if they are in an operational team there would be a number of vehicles managed by the inspector locally. If they are in research, there are usually older vehicles that they use or we would lease vehicles. A lot of times they are externally funded through the research funds that they would be carrying out work for.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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In broad strokes, there is the guts of €500,000 being spent on fuel and €350,000 spent on car hire. The size of the fleet means that depreciation is a very serious cost.

I understand there is a need for that but I find it astonishing, considering the size of the fleet, a fleet manager was only put in place after somebody had a crash in an uninsured vehicle.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I would not go so far as to say that.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Is the timeline wrong?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No. We had what we called a logistics manager, who was responsible for the fleet, which is cars, boats and trailers, and for health and safety, procurement, facilities and warehouses. We have so few-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is evident in the fact there were 16 uninsured vehicles driving around the place that there was a need for a fleet manager.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I agree.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have a follow-on question on the climate commitments IFI set out. I think it is high level objective 4 and it refers to the type of reductions needed in carbon emissions across the organisation. The guts of €500,000 is being spent on fuel to get that expensive fleet around the place and that is not counting fuel for the RIBs, which is a separate cost. A significant amount of money is being spent on car hire and the maintenance and upgrade of the fleet. What steps is IFI taking towards electrification of the fleet? Have we a significant component of electric vehicles, EVs?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We do. Some 22.5% of our fleet is electric, which is 46 vehicles. I will go back to say one thing. In 2021, we were still at the height of the pandemic and, with regard to vehicle occupancy, rules kept changing. Our staff were deemed essential workers so we were doing everything we could to make sure they were out on the ground carrying out their job and doing it safely. At certain points in the pandemic, we could only have one staff member in a car where normally we would have four or even sometimes five. At other times, we had screens allowing two people in the car, one in front of the screen and one in the back. In 2021 we had, I think, 102 lease cars. The following year we had 38. It was an unusual year.

Getting back to the Deputy's question on EVs, 46 cars in our fleet, or 22.5%, are EVs. They have travelled more than 665,000 km in the course of duty since 2019. We recognise that 70% of our emissions are attributed to our fleet but we are proud to say we have made a 44.5% improvement in energy efficiency compared to our baselines, which is an SEAI performance energy indicator. We are a leader in energy performance and proud of that fact.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentation. Following up on uninsured vehicles, there were 16 of those. Surely vehicles have an indication they are insured on the windscreen. The other issue was about tax. How could there be so many? I could understand, though it should not happen, one or two, but this was 16, a substantial number. Surely there are checks and balances to make sure all vehicles are insured at all times.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

There are now. Every year when we get our insurance policy we shop around to get the best value for the public purse. In that year we went with a company called LeasePlan. A requirement was to contact them when any car went onto fleet. Our permanent cars are on at the beginning of the year and do not change unless we buy new vehicles. In 2021 we had 103 lease cars. They are not all brought on and taken off at the same time. It is two cars for two weeks, five cars for-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is that not a complicated way of dealing with it. If a member of the IFI's staff needs a car at 6 p.m., how does it cover insurance?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Sorry, give me that question again.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Say somebody suddenly requires a vehicle at 6 p.m., their existing vehicle is not functioning and they need to follow up something urgently. Is Ms Bradley saying they are not covered by insurance because IFI will not be able to get on to the insurance company there and then?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No. We have a 24-hour requirement to get a vehicle so if you knew you needed a vehicle for tomorrow, you would contact our field services team and they would organise a vehicle, the first being to try to see if there is a vehicle----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If an emergency arose-----

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes, if an emergency arose. In the short term-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Surely the policy needs to be looked at from the point of view of cover being there without having to necessarily identify the vehicle.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

That is in place now.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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And that was not the case before.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

That was not the case at the time.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Money was spent trying to make the insurance retrospective. My understanding is IFI engaged a firm of solicitors to deal with that and a cost was incurred. You cannot make insurance retrospective.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I do not believe that was the case.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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IFI engaged a firm of solicitors.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We obviously did not know the vehicles were uninsured. How we became aware of it when the accident happened------

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If an accident did not happen, those 16 vehicles could still be going around without insurance.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

For the period of time they were on a short-term lease, the Deputy is absolutely right. We would not have known.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Ms Bradley is satisfied there are enough checks and balances there now.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Absolutely. The arrangement we have with Axa is that the notification period is not immediate. All our cars are registered on the national vehicle database so this situation cannot happen. With the LeasePlan insurance policy, we needed to tell the insurer before the car was driven that it was on the policy. The current policy does not require that notification.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On insurance for premises, boats, etc., is IFI satisfied it has adequate procedures in place to make sure a slip-up like this does not arise again?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Absolutely. There are two things. One, we have put in a fleet manager who is solely responsible for boats, cars and trailers and the insurance. He also has two staff working with him.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is IFI satisfied it has adequate insurance for buildings it owns as regards public liability?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Remember insurance is any one event, so if ten people are injured in one accident, the limit is for the ten people rather than ten individual claims.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. As I said, we apologise for what happened-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am asking about insurance for limited liability. Is IFI satisfied it has adequate cover in relation to limited liability?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I move on to a different issue, namely, legal costs incurred. In prosecutions, one has to engage with people. Is IFI satisfied it has adequate procedures for getting value for money in relation to legal costs?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Yes. We do a legal tender through e-tenders. We have appointed 15 different solicitors as our solicitors in the 2021 accounts. They give us the best rates available and are based throughout the country to deal with prosecution matters that come up in the different regions. We also have some Dublin-based solicitors that deal with more corporate-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

IFI has taken a judicial review case.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

That is correct.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that a board decision to take that judicial review? What stage is the review at and what is its likely cost to the fisheries board?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I will answer the second question afterwards. The case has been heard and is being written up by the judge at the moment. We had full support of the board to undertake that process.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The start of it was a board decision.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It was a board decision.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I ask the question because I have seen a scenario where the fisheries board objected to planning permission for a school and took it all the way to An Bord Pleanála even though the school gave a commitment to the fisheries board. I reckon that delay has cost €2 million to the project. Is there a policy for engaging on environmental issues with schools and local authorities where the fisheries board has a concern?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We would always to try to find a solution-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In this case, there was not one. The issue basically was that the fishery board felt the sewage treatment facility in a small local community was not adequate for the school. The old school was already connected to the system. The school gave an undertaking that it would not increase the number of pupils but the fisheries board took it all the way to An Bord Pleanála and delayed the project for more than 18 months. Is there a policy in the fisheries board for dealing with issues such as this?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Our policy is to be pragmatic at all times and to try to find a solution. I am not familiar with the particular case that Deputy Burke is speaking about. I have not seen the file on it so it is difficult for me to speak on it. I do not know whether there is anybody-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am asking whether there is a policy. In this case, it went all the way to An Bord Pleanála at a cost to the Department of Education and to the local community.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

On these particular issues, there would not be written policy whereas-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it not about time that there was a written policy because this is-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We have a policy-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I fully understand the fisheries board wanting to protect the environment. What I am saying is that in this case, there was no engagement. Even where the school authorities tried to have engagement it was a closed door.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We have a stakeholders policy. I believe, as a senior person in the executive and as my colleagues do, that we would always engage. Like any public service organisation, we may have a policy on an issue and we may have a statutory remit but often there are discussions with other agencies to try to find solutions. Nobody wants to see one public service organisation not working in close co-operation with another. I am more than prepared to look at this and speak to Deputy Burke about it afterwards. I am not familiar with it.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask about co-ordination between local authorities and the fisheries board. Is the fisheries board satisfied there are enough processes in place so that there is a maximum benefit from its point of view and the delivery of the service that it is trying to provide? It is satisfied there are adequate processes in place for this engagement to be ongoing?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We engage at the highest level with county councils and city councils on a range of issues. The local authorities water programme, LAWPRO, is part of the county council system. We engage with it on a regular basis on water quality issues, catchment issues and habitat restoration. The answer is "Yes".

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Donnell is speaking about the staff and I fully understand they have a lot of territory to cover. With regard to environmental issues, does Mr. O'Donnell feel that at this stage it would be helpful if IFI had additional staff to help out in this area? The fisheries board watches developments all of the time. Mr. O'Donnell has already explained how fish stocks have decreased substantially. Therefore, IFI is watching future developments. Is he satisfied that IFI has sufficient staff to deal with the issue so there can be co-ordination between it, local authorities and developing projects?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We are understaffed in this area. I identified that when I came back to IFI a number of years ago. What we find is that our environmental officers in particular are, for want of a better phrase, becoming locked into the office reviewing planning applications and environmental assessments all of the time. In the past, they spent more time in the field and detected more issues. They took remedial action on more issues and they took more prosecutions if it was necessary to do so. As I said in my opening statement, the ecological world we are in is changing all of the time. It is getting very complex. We now find that our specialists are reviewing applications from other agencies and private companies and it is bogging us down. This is why Ms Bradley, my colleagues and I in the senior management team worked on a business case. We have identified it as weakness in the organisation.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr O'Donnell and his colleagues for their opening statement. Like my colleague Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, I would prefer to have spoken about fish today. The corporate strategy was signed off in 2020. Mr. O'Donnell began as chief executive in 2020.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is correct.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Donnell has highlighted a number of challenges and we should really be discussing them and the accounts for 2021 but obviously there are other more pressing issues. There were six resignations from the board recently, including the chairperson. Then there were a number of disclosures. Is there an issue between the board and the executive of IFI?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It is publicly known that a number of board members resigned.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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A high number.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I did not have sight of the resignation letters. They went directly to the Minister, Deputy Ryan. With any board and any executive, there is a waxing and waning. It should never get too comfortable. It is important that, as an executive, we are challenged but equally as an executive, we should not be afraid to ask questions or raise issues on matters of concern. It is a very healthy environment to be in. I can only speak about my own relationship with board members in IFI. I felt I had a very professional and good working relationship with board members. They may not necessarily have the same opinion but I cannot speak to that. That is my view.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Donnell is saying he had a good working relationship with the previous chairperson and the new chairperson who was appointed and then resigned a year later.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I did have, yes.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It paints a different picture for us. All of this played out in the public domain, as Mr. O'Donnell can appreciate. He is right that everything went to the Minister and the Oireachtas heard that the Minister was taking action on IFI. What Mr. O'Donnell is saying this morning does not necessarily chime with what we are seeing and he can appreciate why. There is clearly a problem somewhere and it will come out in the wash.

My next question is for Ms Bradley as head of HR. It is about the morale of the staff. How many staff does IFI have at present?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Just under 320. It depends on the time of year. At present, we have our seasonal staff so that increases the number by 50.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Overall in the organisation what is morale like?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I would not say it is particularly good at present. I would say staff are feeling very deflated. They work so hard-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What are the main reasons for that?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

It is because of all of what has played out in public. I want to say very quickly that I have been working in the organisation for five years. It is my first time to work in the public sector. Our staff are one of the most amazing groups of people I have ever worked with. Their vocation to what they do is unbelievable and palpable. They go above and beyond every day. What they find so difficult is that all of this has been playing out in the media and they are asking what about them. It has tarnished the jobs they do. That has been very difficult.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What actions have HR and the wider organisation taken to try to arrest this problem and motivate staff with regard to the good work that they do?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We put together a well-being team. We got a commitment from the board and the executive to go for the KeepWell Mark so that we would have a benchmark.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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When did that start?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We started that in late 2021 and we got the award in 2022. We are rolling out an employee survey through an external body in September.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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My next question is for the Comptroller and Auditor General. When did the audit of 2021 accounts begin?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was around this time of the year in 2022. I can get the exact dates for Deputy Devlin.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to what Mr. O'Donnell said in terms of when the issue with the change of base for his workplace was flagged, when did that become apparent during the audit?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I would have to check. I know the file came to me in December 2022.

Obviously, many issues had been surfaced and each took some time, so it was in December – around 12 December, I think – that I cleared the issues. However, I think they would have been raised prior to that with staff members in IFI.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.

When was Mr. O'Donnell's decision to move back to Dublin made?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I got into negotiations straightaway with the two section 18 appointees, our two board members, once it was pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. O'Donnell have a rough idea as to when it came to him?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I certainly took a mental decision six or eight weeks ago to do that. I wrote to the two board members officially, probably a fortnight ago, to say that my base had changed.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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So, it was very recent.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes. It is important for me to state here today that what was done was done for very genuine reasons. I had no issue when it was pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I believe that if there had been a full board decision at the time, there would have been no issue with it. I regret that I did not do that but-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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There are no notes. Is that not right?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

There is a letter from the head of human resources, Róisín Bradley, to the HR department. In it, she informs me that she can confirm that my normal place of work, as specified in my five-year fixed-term contract as chief executive officer, is changing from Citywest Business Campus to the Ballyshannon office, effective immediately.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What date is on that letter?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

The date is 3 November 2021. It states the arrangement has been made in line with sections 2.2 and 2.3 of my contract and refers me to page 2 of my fixed-term contract, dated 2 November 2020. It adds that all other terms and conditions of my employment remain unchanged and that if I have any queries about the content of the letter, I should not hesitate to contact Ms Bradley directly.

Therefore, it was not something that just happened. There was a discussion between the chairman, me and the head of human resources. That was the letter that I got-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Was that the original chairman of the board?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes, it was the original chairman. I appreciate that there is no other written record on this issue.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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On the timeline, I think the phrase was "very little written evidence". The Comptroller and Auditor General's opening statement stated, "We found no contemporaneous written record of the proposal for the work location change or of its financial implications, or of a decision in that regard by the Board, which is responsible for setting the terms and conditions of the Chief Executive." If the audit started and the Comptroller and Auditor General was notified in December 2022, the letter Mr O'Donnell read out is dated 3 November 2021.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is correct.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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One letter is fine, and Ms Campion said the cost was €5,400 overall. In the round, irrespective of the amount of money and the way in which things were done, coupled with the issues concerning fleet management or the lack thereof and other issues we are discussing today, it points to either a laissez-faireapproach within the organisations to items or indeed something more sinister than that. Mr. O'Donnell can appreciate why we, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, would be very interested in various issues that have arisen, not only at board level but also in respect of the management of various items within the organisation. From where I am sitting, I believe that the overall management of the organisation, which ultimately stops with Mr. O'Donnell as chief executive, points to a litany of issues. As I said at the outset, we would prefer to discuss the external challenges the organisation faces rather than the internal ones, but we are discussing quite a few internal issues today. Would Mr. O'Donnell agree?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I would not agree with some of the Deputy's comments. I do not believe we take a laissez-faireattitude to anything in IFI. I have brought a significant number of governance issues to the attention of the board since I became CEO in 2020. There was nothing sinister about my base change. I have to say that the word "sinister" makes it sound as if things were predetermined and that I went about this in some kind of sneaky way. I did not do that. I have said, and state again for the record, that it was agreed with the chairman at the time and the head of human resources. The Comptroller and Auditor General is correct that there should have been a full board decision, but if it had been a sinister thing I would have just done it myself and not asked for permission to do it. My expenses were paid afterwards and signed off by the then chairman. It is important for the public watching this today to note we do not have alaissez-faire attitude. We have problems and we have apologised. We are absolutely up front about the problems and need to get through this bottleneck. We have two excellent board members working along with us at the moment and they have great experience. They are going to do a governance review that is going to help us. Public service organisations make mistakes and humans make mistakes, and we are here to answer for them. We have no issue but I have to object to the word "sinister".

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. Mr. O'Donnell said he had a good working relationship with the board members. Would that be accurate?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is being portrayed publicly that there was open civil war between the executive and the board. Would Mr. O'Donnell agree there was civil war?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I do not believe there was civil war at all. The media presented it in a particular way. We are all here and we all know that people have various strategies.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The media portrayed it in a certain way. Five board members resigned. They did not resign because there was a great relationship between the executive and the board.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I cannot speak to that because I am not actually sure why those board members resigned. They would have tendered their resignations directly to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and I would not have had sight of them. Therefore, I cannot speak to that point.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask Mr. Maher about it then? I am not going to ask him to get into the detail of the resignation letters. Would I be right in saying the resignation letters were received by the Minister and the Department?

Mr. Denis Maher:

Yes. Some related to disagreements and some to the pressure of work. Our Secretary General wrote to this committee a little while ago in relation to correspondence received from the committee in terms of clarification. The correspondence stated quite clearly in relation to the resignations that there was a breakdown in relationships. That means inter-board relationships. It is important to emphasise that. The executive follows the direction of the board but if the board members are notad idem, that is a problem. This is in a letter to the committee chair.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask about the Minister's move to remove the three remaining board members? On what basis was that done, and why? We are being told there was no basis and that it was on a no-fault basis. Why were they removed?

Mr. Denis Maher:

Again, it is contained in the letter to this committee. There are functions reserved for the board. These are very important in terms of strategy, finance and signing off on procurement of a certain level. We exercise corporate governance over IFI not in the day-to-day operational sense but in the sense of dealing with the bigger issues. If there were a board decision that required further action – for instance, the sanction of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to carry out the action – I would be charged with securing that. Also, our governance relates to the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and compliance with the Act of 2010. Those are important points. There are a number of functions listed in the Secretary General's letter that just could not be progressed-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Denis Maher:

-----and if they were not progressed, it would be very detrimental to IFI.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Have many protected disclosures been made to the Minister?

Mr. Denis Maher:

I am sorry but I am not privy to that because there is a specialised unit in the Department. It would not be appropriate for me as the head of the inland fisheries division to have any impact in that regard. Again, it is detailed in written correspondence to the committee that the disclosures remain at various points of completion.

Within the terms of the 2014 Act and our own policies, and with those disclosures having been made to IFI within its own ambit, if matters can be forwarded to the committee, we are happy to do so.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question about dormant accounts funding. An allocation of €30,000 was refunded to the Dormant Accounts Fund due to governance issues with the grant process. Does IFI review all grant applications as a result of the disclosure or only a sample? What processes have been put in place on foot of the governance issues that were highlighted and in terms of the €30,000 that had to be refunded?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

The review the Deputy is talking about, which recommended the refund or, rather, that IFI might think about refunding a proportion of the €30,000, looked at grants to IFI to the amount of €924,000. The organisation was privileged to have dormant accounts funding to work with. We deeply regret that there are any queries around it at all. However, as it stands, the review looked at all the money that was given to us. It included the various programmes and measures that were in place in those two years, 2019 and 2020. In effect, the €924,000 is about 75% to 78% of the total amount of grants that were given to us. The bit that was not looked at was the following year.

The funding was broken down to various programmes such as Go Fishing Week, the angling for all grants and novice angler activation. The review looked at all amounts of money over €5,000 that were disbursed to third parties. It found these particular payments. IFI had a rationale for actually including them in it, if one considers what the programmes are about. Leave No Trace is about bringing people into the environment and educating them to ensure they leave no trace behind them. The visitor safety in the countryside programme looked at keeping all those people we were intending to bring out safe in the countryside. We were dealing with the Dormant Accounts Fund target groups, namely, the disadvantaged, the educationally disadvantaged and people with a disability.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question about Aasleagh Lodge. The property was leased to a staff member on an informal basis. It has come to light that it was being operated as a guest house. Are these two statements correct?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I will go back a little bit and try to answer all the Deputy's questions.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask for a "Yes" or a "No" on those points first.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I do not think it was informal. There was a contractual arrangement in place with the employee but the mistake started in 2017. I want to get to the nub of the issue here. At that point, there was an internal call in IFI. There was a tendering process to see if anybody within the organisation was interested in leasing the property. That should never have happened. That was a mistake. I think it was a cascading effect thereafter because the property was for sale. It was going to be very difficult to get anybody to tender to lease the property because of a condition that the property would have to vacated with ten weeks' notice if IFI managed to sell it. This was a governance mistake and we regret that it happened.

In 2021, when I reviewed the files and went back through some documentation, I realised that the tendering process had not been done nationally. I immediately brought the issue to the board's attention.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How many properties similar to that would IFI have?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I want to give clarity on this issue. Aasleagh Lodge has three properties. There are two self-catering cottages. There is a working base on the property and then there is Aasleagh Lodge itself. The house was given to the State by the Brabourne family in 1984 after the murder of Lord Mountbatten.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on to the fraud investigation by An Garda Síochána that Mr. O'Donnell alluded to. I am very conscious that it is a live investigation. Without identifying any individuals, is Mr. O'Donnell in a position to provide some context around the various issues relating to the alleged fraud?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am conscious of the fact that anything I say here could identify somebody. We have known about it since 2022. I was of the opinion that it had occurred from reviewing internal paperwork and looking at time sheets and rosters associated with certain staff. Having looked at it very carefully, I was quite sure that something very significant had happened.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Donnell only reported the incidents to An Garda Síochána after a second review was carried in September 2022. Is that correct?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I first reported the matter to An Garda Síochána in July. I went back and made a 25-page statement in September. I have to be very careful about what I say here.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Mr. O'Donnell. I want you to be cautious. I also remind Deputies to be careful in their choice of language. A word like "sinister" has certain connotations.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will start with Ms Bradley in relation to the 16 uninsured vehicles. To have a vehicle on the road without insurance is a criminal offence. Were there any prosecutions in that regard?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No prosecution occurred for having an uninsured vehicle on the public highway.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is strange. Was Ms Bradley asked to present documents?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Were gardaí called?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We became aware that the vehicles were uninsured when the accident occurred. We contacted our insurance company. An Garda Síochána has not-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long ago did the incident take place?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

It happened in August 2021.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Ms Bradley aware that somebody in the organisation will be held responsible from a criminal perspective?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes, we are aware of that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So what has IFI done apart from employing a fleet manager? Has there been training in that regard?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. A full review was done in terms of the administration resources. Apart from that, we also made sure to put in a fail-safe mechanism to ensure that this cannot happen again. The insurance policy that we-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I want to be clear on this. No one in IFI made a statement to An Garda Síochána regarding the issue of uninsured vehicles. Is that correct?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No. We were not asked to.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I want to go back to the maintenance issue for a moment. I would not ever equate a logistics manager with a fleet manager. However, in IFI one person seems to have been doing the two jobs. I note in some of our reports that the idea of the vehicle telematics was that IFI would incorporate fuel and other services from them. Is that correct?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. Basically, the idea was that we had a dual relationship with LeasePlan.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a package deal.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. We had maintenance and insurance with it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a reference to "vehicle fuel". Were fuel cards provided by LeasePlan?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No. Our fuel cards are through Circle K.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many fuel cards does the organisation have?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I am not sure.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Would each vehicle have a fuel card?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. We would also have fuel cards for boats and certain equipment that would require diesel to operate.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Would the chief executive, for instance, have a fuel card?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I have a fuel card, as does the chief executive.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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For how long has the chief executive had a fuel card?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I do not know.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I answer the question? I have had a fuel card since about 2019 or early 2020, when I first started with IFI as a regional director. For clarity, I use my car for work purposes only. It is not for private use. We have a policy internally which prohibits that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O’Donnell use his car or his card?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I use my car. Obviously, the card is for work purposes only - for operational reasons relating to IFI.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Slow down for one second. Mr. O'Donnell is getting ahead of me.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Sorry.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the car Mr. O’Donnell his own or is it an IFI vehicle?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It is an IFI vehicle.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For which Mr. O'Donnell has a fuel card.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes, for which I have a fuel card.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Mr. O'Donnell was claiming subsistence, did he ever use that fuel card? Can we have a record of the transactions relating to it? He stated that he has had the card since 2020.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes, I have had it since I started in IFI.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell did not use it when he was claiming subsistence. We will be able to get a record of that.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is not how it works. I would just claim the normal-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on. Why would Mr. O'Donnell claim subsistence from IFI?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I do not claim travel. One just claims an overnight. They are two different components of the travel and subsistence system.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us clear that up. For travel, Mr. O'Donnell was claiming an overnight and had no mileage.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell had no mileage claim.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I have never claimed mileage. I go in and I use my card for IFI business, and that is it. It goes directly centrally back to our finance section.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell would fill the IFI car using the fuel card.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Of course.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And Mr. O'Donnell does not use that outside the business.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Of course I do not.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perfect. IFI obviously has oversight of the fact that Mr. O'Donnell has a vehicle that he uses for work only.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does IFI have telematics information?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes, we do.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. The information we received indicates that there was no record. I know that details of a HR letter were referred to earlier. However, that letter came after the fact of our investigation or that of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Was that letter posted or emailed to Mr. O'Donnell? How did he receive it? How did he find that it had not been submitted initially?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I do not know whether I got it in the post or by email. I could not honestly answer that question. It was sent by my colleague, Ms Bradley. She might be able to-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Ms Bradley.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I wish to explain how this came about because it-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just need to know where the letter that the Comptroller and Auditor General did not receive came from.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

As far as I remember - I would have to double-check - I printed out a hard copy of it in order that I could put it in Mr. O'Donnell's file and left it on his desk. I also scanned a copy of it to him. I was cc'ed on it by the chairman. However, that was not after the fact; it was at the time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was after the fact of our report.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Okay. Right.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, I will clarify that with the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The letter that we are talking about was from 3 November 2021. That was a notification to the chief executive that his base had changed. That happened at the time the change was made. A year later, we were carrying out the audit and looking for where the business case underpinning it was. The only document that was available to us for audit purposes was the notification to the chief executive that his base had been changed.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which would not suffice from the point of view-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was not sufficient, in my view, when the change of base should have been a decision of the board. I was looking for evidence of the board's decision with regard to the change of base in 2021.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now that has been explained, in the absence of the board making that decision, why did Mr. O'Donnell go ahead and repay the subsistence?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

As a public servant, if the Comptroller and Auditor General points something out to you and he is of a strong view that the process around my change of base was not correct and it should have gone to a decision of the full board, I am duty-bound to lead properly and not be one bit afraid to do this and say "Okay". If I had known that I had to do that at time, I would have gone to the full board and got a decision to do it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A man of Mr. O'Donnell's experience is telling me, to be clear, that he needed the Comptroller and Auditor General to advise that it was not proper practice in line with public service guidelines that he would just change the address.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I respond to that? The chairperson of the board-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There must be a code of conduct.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

-----and the head of HR agreed to this change.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell said the chair of the board agreed to it. Where have we seen that?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is correct, and the Comptroller and Auditor General has pointed that out.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who was the chair of the board at the time?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Fintan Gorman was the chair of the board at the time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell is saying categorically, under oath, that Mr. Gorman agreed to his change of work base. Did he just say-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Not alone did he agree it, he also signed off on my expenses, which would have been from the Ballyshannon base thereafter.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But there was nothing in writing.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

There may have been nothing in writing but he agreed to it. There is no possible way that I could have operated from the Ballyshannon base without at least getting agreement, and I had the letter from-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that basis, why did Mr. O'Donnell feel the need to pay back the subsistence if he was categoric that he did not do it unilaterally and had the agreement of the former chair?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

The Comptroller and Auditor General pointed it out. I sat down when the section 18 board members were appointed. They considered the issue and were aligned with the Comptroller and Auditor General on it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sure they were.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

They were aligned with the Comptroller and Auditor General on it and I took the corrective action. Would the Deputy not have wanted me to do that?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course I would. I just wonder why it took so long and why it needed to be pointed out to someone in Mr. O'Donnell's position. Why did that need to be pointed out? These are basic rules relating to public office.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I will go back 2021. It is about context here as well. I was asking everybody in IFI at that point not to go to headquarters and not to go to a regional office but to work from home if they possibly could. That is important. When your office is only open one day a week-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those were different times, I agree-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I think-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was one error. There was an accumulation of errors that make IFI look like a basket case. For a start, there were uninsured vehicles, which I, as someone who operated as a haulier for years, find incredible, to be honest. It is a jailable offence. The other thing is the leasing of the cottage. Was Mr. O'Donnell aware of that?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I just informed the other Deputy in depth.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. Would Mr. O'Donnell take responsibility that there was a comedy of errors within IFI?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Over a time period, organisations make governance mistakes. The difficulty with IFI was when these governance issues were brought to the attention of the Minister and the public, they all came out at one time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Donnell take any responsibility for that?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Why should I take responsibility? My responsibility at this point in time is to be here in front of this committee today and-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just asked Mr. O'Donnell whether he as CEO would take any responsibility for all of those errors and he said "Why would I?"

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I was not here for many of them, so I could not take responsibility for them. However, I am taking responsibility now to tighten up on governance and get us through this bottleneck in the organisation. That is my job.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell would be happy that there is nobody claiming travel subsistence within the organisation but would have use of a fuel card categorically.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That absolutely should not be.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell would have already stated to employees that should not happen, given his own brush with subsistence and repaying money. There would probably have been a sit-down with everybody to say that IFI needs to have the height of good governance and conduct.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We have a telematics system.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That only-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It is very important.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want anyone confused about what a telematics system does.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I say-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just a second. I am chairing the meeting. The Deputy should allow Mr. O'Donnell to give an answer. He should keep it brief. Ms Bradley has indicated three times that she wishes to come in. She may do so briefly as well. Mr. O'Donnell should clarify that point.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

When a fuel card is used in IFI, we can - there and then, or sometime thereafter - see whether the vehicle that the fuel card is assigned to was at the relevant petrol station. I do reviews. I have done significant reviews on that in relation to an investigation that I am assisting.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell would cross-check-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Of course.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----if there was any form of subsistence claim with fuel purchase. He cross-checks that all the time.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I do cross-checks and I have done cross-checks, but I do not want to go into that in depth now in relation to what I spoke about earlier.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know Ms Bradley was anxious to come in.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

We have taken a lot of learning from what happened. Not only did we put in a robust new administration support system and the policy and all the rest of it, but we also conducted a number of mandatory sessions with staff to remind them of the fleet policy, the subsistence and, more importantly, how the fuel cards should be used and monitored, and so on.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Bradley would be happy to state categorically that there could be no cross between a claim for subsistence and use of the fuel cards.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is grand.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will suspend for ten minutes.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I want to say one thing for the record, although it may not be that important. Unless I heard it wrong, the Comptroller and Auditor General may have stated that the Inland Fisheries Ireland headquarters is in Donegal, when it is actually in Dublin. That is just for the transcript of the meeting. I apologise if I misheard him.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I am sorry for that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clarify, Inland Fisheries Ireland has a regional office in Ballyshannon.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We have offices all around the country.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is just a point of clarification for myself. That is the one it was using during the Covid period.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Exactly.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you for that clarification.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. They know why they are here. It is because of incompetence, poor governance and disregard towards taxpayers' money. That is evident within the accounts laid before the House but also the statement on internal control, which took at least an hour, if not two hours, to read through. They have apologised and we accept that. We now need further clarity and understanding of the revelations in these accounts and the actions and decisions taken. I will also go so far as to compliment the board of IFI on disclosing its concerns with the standard of internal control. That is the board's job, to hold those at executive and management level to account. Considering what happened to the board in terms of highlighting the issues, I am sure the public will say a lot of its members resigned or it was disbanded on a no-fault basis. That is really concerning. As in the case of RTÉ, the Committee of Public Accounts has to get the facts and achieve transparency.

Will Mr. O'Donnell confirm if there is a separate Garda fraud investigation under way around a senior IFI appointment?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Is there a senior Garda investigation around-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a separate Garda fraud investigation under way around-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am not aware of it, if there is.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is only one Garda investigation under way at present. Will he confirm that today?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

There is only one Garda investigation. That is correct.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who requested the change of workplace?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It was actually a discussion. I am answering the question-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the question again. Who requested it? Was it Mr. O'Donnell who requested the change of workplace?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I cannot actually answer that question-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chair, it is a simple question.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Hold on. It was a discussion. I will ask Ms Bradley to come in because I know she is aware of how this happened.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Ms Bradley go to Mr. O'Donnell and say he should change his workplace or did he go to her?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I will let Ms Bradley answer that question.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I suggested it.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On what basis?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

At the time, previously-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was Ms Bradley's role?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I was head of HR.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She requested that the CEO-----

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Let me just explain-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who was at executive management level, change his workplace.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I suggested it. I first suggested it to the chair to see if it was something that would be appropriate. I then suggested it to the CEO. At the time, the remote working strategy for Ireland had come out, and I was ringing round-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious of the clock.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Okay.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell had a contract in place.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was his work base in the contract?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

The location was Citywest, but there is nothing in the contract preventing him from changing it.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. That is all I asked. It was a signed contract.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

That is correct.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was legally binding.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Ms Bradley understands that.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell has established that the chair and the head of HR verbally agreed in November 2021.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Correct.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Ms Bradley aware if the chair has executive decision-making powers?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I genuinely believed it that if the chairman said we could do it, I did not realise any further requirement was necessary.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Bradley is director of HR.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Should she not have established that?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

That is the reason I checked with the chair, and if the chair said it was okay, I figured it was. I am just telling the Deputy honestly that I believed that to be the case, and it was okay.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I presume Ms Bradley drew up a new contract.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I drew up a letter, which acts as an addendum to the contract, and I copied it by the chair.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can the committee be furnished with a copy of that contract? Do we have-----

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

This is the letter they are talking about in November.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can it be presented to this committee?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who signed that contract?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I signed it.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who else?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Just myself.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Bradley took the unilateral decision to change his work base.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes, with the consent of the chair.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the consent, but the chair had no executive powers in decision-making. It had to go before the board.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

As I said, I was not aware of that fact. The chair did not advise me of that fact either.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who did not advise you?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

The chair.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of good corporate governance, and proper legal contract arrangements, Mr. O'Donnell's original contract stated his headquarters were in Citywest. Ms Bradley took the decision.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I should say that I would take decisions like this during the normal course of work, where I would change other people's-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not for a chief executive.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Okay, I understand that, and now I know, but I can say to you that I believed I could do it on the basis that I had the consent of the chair. He is copied on that letter.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell also sits on the board. Is that correct?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes, I did sit on the board.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did he bring this to the board's attention?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I did not bring it to the board's attention.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Because, as I have stated, I think, about three times already today-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does he not think that was a really important thing to bring to the board members' attention?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I answer the question? I did not bring it to the attention of the board. The chair and the head of HR were aware of it, and-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question is, why not?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

-----if I had thought at the time that I should have brought it to the attention of the entire board, I would have done that.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Donnell not think that is an important decision in the context of his contract? Did he try to conceal it from the board?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I think, Deputy, the fact that the chair was aware of it-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was a cosy-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Sorry, Deputy, you are using-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Mr. O'Donnell, you are in the Committee of Public Accounts.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking the questions. This was a cosy arrangement between the HR director and the CEO-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because nobody else was aware of it. Is that correct?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Allow the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It is not correct. It was not a cosy arrangement.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But Mr. O'Donnell never brought it to the board.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

The chairperson of any board discusses and talks with their fellow colleagues regularly. The fact that the chairman was aware of it-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When the chairman resigned-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

As far as I am concerned, at that point, it was okay.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When was the decision made? Was it after the chairman resigned or before the chairman resigned that Ms Bradley signed that letter?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

It was well before.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well before.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Maybe a year beforehand.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A year before.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

For the record, it was probably November 2021, and the chair resigned in late April 2022.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And Mr. O'Donnell never thought to bring that to the board's attention.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I did not see any issue with it at the time. I keep stating that.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Donnell think Paul Reid as head of the HSE would have changed his work base to Leitrim even though HSE headquarters are in Dublin?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am not going to comment about what any other executive does.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This highlights-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am here to account for myself, not for any other executive, Deputy.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are here to talk about governance and protecting the taxpayer.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The taxpayer was put on the tune for an additional €5,000 because Mr. O'Donnell and his HR director entered an arrangement which seems absolutely ridiculous in nature. They were then caught on the basis of the statement on internal control and the Comptroller and Auditor General, and they are here to answer questions about it.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

There is nobody caught here. Everything that we do-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On what ground did Mr. O’Donnell reverse the decision?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I have already spoken to that.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On what grounds?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

The Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out they were clearly of the view that this should have gone to a full board decision. This is probably my fifth time saying that. The section 18 appointees who have just joined the IFI-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which only happened this year.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Can I finish this?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which only happened this year, Mr. O'Donnell..

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Chair, will I be allowed to answer a question? I am being badgered here. I think it is unfair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Deputy is asking a question or making a charge I do want to give the witness chance to reply.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It either has to be a question or a statement. I cannot answer a statement. It is either a question, but if it is a statement I cannot answer that, Chair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please respond, Mr. O'Donnell.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Could Deputy Dillon repeat the question please?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O’Donnell entered a contract on a unilateral basis with his human resources, HR, director. He never got board consent. Does he think that is acceptable?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I think in the context of how it happened, why it happened, and when it happened, it was done in absolute good faith. I did it in good faith then so-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O’Donnell was the only beneficiary of this.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Well actually, how is that the case?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Because the headquarters of IFI are in Citywest.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Okay.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is where Mr. O’Donnell should be based.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Then I would ask the Deputy the question. If the office is only open one day per week-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O’Donnell only changed. We were well out of Covid-19 when he actually made that change.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We were not well out of Covid-19 and our office was only open one day per week at the time.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did Mr. O’Donnell change his work base? On what date?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I think it was in November 2021.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did Mr. O’Donnell change his work base back to Citywest?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I can supply the record to the meeting. I do not know exactly what-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the HR director.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Roughly, what times did Mr. O'Donnell use Ballyshannon? I know he cannot remember off the top of his head but just roughly-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Well I have claimed no expenses for being in Dublin.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not the question I asked. When did Mr. O'Donnell change back his work base?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Probably a fortnight ago.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A fortnight ago.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I officially wrote to the two section 18 members. This is a discussion. This was part of a process.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that acceptable, Ms Bradley?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I have to say that there were a number of things-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Ms Bradley not ask Mr. O’Donnell, since it was her suggestion in the first place, when we came out of Covid-19 that he should revert back to Citywest?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Let me just say that it was not purely for Covid-19 reasons that I, and I came up with this suggestion-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Bradley previously said it was related to Covid-19, or Mr. O'Donnell did.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Sorry, Mr. O'Donnell did. I said that was not my only consideration. I was looking that a number of things. First of all, the remote working strategy was talking about redeploying people back into rural settings. That is the first thing. The second thing is, there has always been a bit of a "them and us" in terms of Dublin versus the regions. I have redeployed; for instance, my learning development manager job is advertised in Ballina and Limerick where in the past it would have been in Dublin.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. O'Donnell claimed expenses in 2023?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Sorry?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. O'Donnell claimed expenses in 2023?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Of course I have claimed expenses in 2023. I travel all over the country for IFI.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. O’Donnell claimed expenses to go to his headquarters in Citywest? Has he claimed expenses for overnights?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I have claimed expenses.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has he claimed expenses for overnights?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I have claimed for overnights, which-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. O'Donnell think that is reasonable, or justified?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I have paid back the expenses from the start date of the section 18 members. I cannot speak for them because they are not here today but my conversation, hold on, my conversation with them was, what happened under a previous board happened under a previous board. The previous chairperson signed off on my expenses, but from 14 February, which was their starting date. Anything that I had claimed after that period I have paid it back. That is what I was asked to do, Deputy. That is what the board asked me to do. They are my employers and I have done that. There is full transparency here.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not credible, Mr. O'Donnell; I will be honest it is not credible.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Do you know you what, Chair, the records are absolutely clear?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not credible. It is not credible-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

To say that it is not-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that Ms Bradley did not seek this change of headquarters base until two weeks ago.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Chair, I can I say something? I think we are being very credible today. We are being very open and we are being very honest to the committee and I just find that, this is about the fifth time we have visited this, which is fine. It is the Deputy’s right to question. This was done in very good faith.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is not a board member here today, Mr. O’Donnell. Where is his chief financial officer? When did he take over that role?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have gone over time. Since 31 March?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

March.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, I thank Ms Campion.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here today. I just want to put the questions asked by committee members to date in context. I think the witnesses have been very open in the way they have answered the questions. The difficulty is that some of the responses have elicited more questions. It is only right that members of the committee have an opportunity to follow up on those questions. We should all just take a moment. Our job is to try to get to the bottom of that. I would say one thing though. There are lots of side posts here, that there is not a fully functioning relationship between the senior management team and the board in IFI, or there has not been, and that there are problems. While €,5000 is not the be all and end all of the future of IFI it does help to identify and illustrate the working relationships that were happening at the time. I think that is why Deputy Dillon is correct to try to focus on some of these issues and I will do so again.

I find how this arrangement began really unusual. The reason I do is because hundreds of thousands of people right across Ireland changed their workplaces, carried out their work in different ways, and in different manners. I cannot think of any other scenario that I have heard of, even informally - and I am on boards and so on - where a person's employment was changed. As a HR director, a change of employment means something. It carries an additional cost to the company. It is not about where someone works, it is about their legal place of work for Revenue and for purposes of travel and subsistence. I will go back to Mr. O’Donnell and just ask the question - is he saying that he did not request this, that this idea did not come from him; that he did not speak to Ms Bradley; he did not speak to the chairman and this was something that was put to him for the first time?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I think as the head of HR has alluded to, she suggested it to me first.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be fair I am asking Mr. O’Donnell the question directly.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I am saying-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O'Donnell should not use Ms Bradley's words to answer his question.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

No, that was my recollection. It was it was then a discussion, a normal discussion, and then it progressed and evolved into my change of place.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O’Donnell said earlier to Deputy Devlin that he contested the word "sinister" - I accept his right to do that so bear with me - and that if this was sinister he would not have asked for it. Did Mr. O’Donnell ask for it, or not?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I did not ask for it but I would not have gone ahead with something, as a senior public servant, if I thought that it was genuinely doing something wrong or sinister, to used that word, or anything like that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

I mean, it is my job to be open-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am removing Mr. O’Donnell from the initial timeline of how it was initiated. What came across Ms Bradley’s desk, what made her consider possibly changing the contract of the CEO and his place of work?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Right, so there were a number of things. The first thing is that the previous CEO lived in Dublin and spent a lot of time in Dublin. All of our of support services posts, anything in HR, finance, and communications, were all based in Dublin even up as far as an assistant principal, AP, grade post. There had been a bit of a view in the in the regions that all the nice jobs were in Dublin. When I first came in one of the first things I did was I actually started to split my team and started recruiting for my team, who had all been based in Dublin, in the regions.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that a formal strategy or was that just a-----

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

That was a formal strategy. It was actually part of my HR strategy.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Bradley had a formal strategy to implement more diversified locations.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes, exactly.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. When Ms Bradley made the change or proposed the change, she obviously realised that would have an impact on cost for travel and subsistence.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes. I suppose what I would say is that Mr. O’Donnell was spending most of his time In Galway anyway, so to be honest I did not see that there was really much of a difference.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The difference was, and as a HR director she would know this, that travel and subsistence is paid from one’s place of employment.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Absolutely, and to be honest-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. O’Donnell could have worked in Timbuktu or Reykjavík or anywhere. The point is that changing the place of employment of the contract is a very specific thing.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What made Ms Bradley consider that?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I suppose I probably did not give it the weight that it was due, if I am being honest. I have to say in hindsight, and I was only thinking about this recently, what I should have done was to say to Mr. O’Donnell to change his base but we will keep it that in terms of subsistence it is his base or Dublin, like the way you would have your base or home, when claiming subsistence. It should have been his base, home, or-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That leads to a follow-on question of whether anybody else's base was changed?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I have changed people's bases.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course. Was anybody else's base changed as part of this policy at a senior level? For example, was Ms Bradley's place of work changed?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No, it was not.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Ms Campion's-----

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

No, no one else on the executive team. However, as I said, we have done that in the past.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It could be done for logical organisational reasons. It comes to the core of an additional cost being levied on the organisation. Mr. O'Donnell was travelling. He was being reimbursed for the travel he did and did not gain any money from that. You can make a few bob on subsistence but by and large-----

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Not in Dublin.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----you would want to be working very hard. My point is Mr. O'Donnell did the work and was reimbursed from a tax perspective, but the issue is that the company paid more money when it already had a contractual arrangement with Mr. O'Donnell to not incur that cost.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

I understand that. As I said, in hindsight, I would make a different decision. I should say though that it was genuinely made with best intent. It was open. Everyone in my team knew about it. It was not a water-cooler discussion.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The point Ms Bradley is making is that it was an honest error.

The next issue is the deciding of the change of contracts with the CEO. It is an unusual position because the CEO has no line boss at an administrative level within the company. Is it normal to directly go to the chair on different issues?

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

How do you mean?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Normally, the reporting relationship is between the CEO and the board.

Ms R?is?n Bradley:

Well, yes. I suppose my position is an unusual situation to be in because when the last CEO was exiting, I was the conduit between him and the board managing his exit, which was an odd scenario because he was ultimately the person I reported to. It is a weird scenario. I understand that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a level of informality in board governance in that if it had been communicated by Mr. O'Donnell to the chair, it would probably normally have gone through a board meeting or been entered into a board pack and so on, but there was that informal connection between Ms Bradley and the chair. Again, that points to an informality of governance that might have happened for very legitimate, logical reasons. That informality of governance does not rest with Ms Bradley but with Mr. O'Donnell. Staff members should not report directly to the board on any operational issues. As a board member, the only time I ever speak to a staff member is if I have to sign a director's form. I would never speak to the head of wages, for example, for any of the boards I am on. It again shows a level of informality.

I will switch to the departmental officials because I think they got a little off the hook. We have spoken about IFI for a long time. There is a senior counsel review, a McCann FitzGerald review, and a Garda investigation. Effectively, there is no fully functioning board. Will the officials give us an update on where we are as regards a full board appointment, the McCann FitzGerald report, and why, when the senior counsel's report stated that there was no reason for the board members to resign, they were asked to resign?

Mr. Denis Maher:

The senior counsel or Bradley report was completed in July 2022. The Minister's office received it a short time later. I do not think it is quite accurate to say that there was no reason for the board to resign. The report is quite clear. Taking paragraph 103 of that report and reading it in isolation, does not present the accurate or entire picture here. I have the exact sentence here, if the Deputy will bear with me please.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course. Mr. Maher is saying the senior counsel report gave the basis for the removal of the board.

Mr. Denis Maher:

No, I did not say that. Not at all. Paragraph 103 states:

There is not a basis, from the alleged disclosures and the information and documentation which has been reviewed, for the Minister to be satisfied that the functions of IFI are not being performed in an effective manner such as to effect the removal of the ... [board].

Below that, there is a series of very important recommendations made by Mr. Bradley in relation to the conduct of the board's business, which clearly indicate that the delivery was suboptimal. It was not sufficiently suboptimal as to affect a removal at that stage. It must be remembered this arrived into the Minister in July 2022. The Minister took the decision to remove the board on 14 February 2023. In the meantime, the Minister asked senior officials, including myself, in the area to meet with the board. The board accepted all the recommendations, including the one the Deputy cited, in the report and agreed to move forward, working with the executive to implement all the recommendations in the report and report back to the Minister. Unfortunately-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Documents were being sought, but where is the McCann FitzGerald report at this point?

Mr. Denis Maher:

That is in relation to protected disclosure.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Denis Maher:

As I said earlier, it would not be appropriate for me, as head of the division looking after the governance of IFI, to be privy to that. I do not even know what is in the report.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was commissioned by the Department.

Mr. Denis Maher:

Yes, and as I said, there has already been correspondence to the committee in that regard. There are a number of disclosures in-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If Mr. Maher is not a position to respond on behalf of the Department today, could he seek a written reply to that question from the Department?

Mr. Denis Maher:

What I can say is that the process that is being carried out under the Department's policy for protected disclosures under the aegis of the special unit dealing with that, which is not accessible to others in the Department, and under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 must run its course. I have already updated the committee in the sense that the various protected disclosure investigations are at various stages. Once these are completed, I have offered to come back or to have the Department come back, but they must-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a simple question. Can we get a written update as to where things are in the process?

Mr. Denis Maher:

As soon as due process has taken place, of course. It is important that takes place.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are way over time.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee is asking where we are in the investigation. It is a legitimate question. We could be at the very beginning or at the end-----

Mr. Denis Maher:

I am not privy to that information. We are at various stages-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not asking Mr. Maher for that. I am asking him to get an update from the Department on it.

Mr. Denis Maher:

Absolutely-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that commitment being given by the official?

Mr. Denis Maher:

I will answer one further question and give one further clarification. As you know, the Minister removed the board on a no-fault basis on 14 February. One of the reasons for that is that the recommendations of the Bradley report were not implemented by the board. That is a simple issue that arose. Also, it is being characterised here that IFI is in some way board-less or directionless. That is not the case. Section 18 of the Act is very specific that the appointees are carrying out the full functions of a board. There is no board per se. In other words, under the Act, there are ten members of the board, one of whom is ex officio, but there are nine persons appointed by the Minister.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that, can I clarify that the two former county managers have powers and functions equivalent to what a board would normally have?

Mr. Denis Maher:

Absolutely.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All power-----

Mr. Denis Maher:

Their function under section 18 is to manage the statutory obligation and affairs of IFI.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have full authority under section 18.

Mr. Denis Maher:

Full authority.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Thanks for that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the past seven days, we have had the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, RTÉ and the IFI before the committee. We have had a dysfunction overload in a week, the extent of which is highly unusual for the committee to see. IFI mentioned the vocational nature of many of its staff in its opening statement. I accept that and I accept their morale must be on the floor but it is not because of what is in the newspapers. All of this is self-inflicted damage. There would not be adverse newspaper articles if there were not a basis for such newspaper or media articles. IFI staff, rather than just the committee or the public, require a very serious consideration of how IFI will make an apology to them, especially those people who are working on fish kills and conservation issues.

That is self-evident.

I want to start by asking Inland Fisheries Ireland about the dormant accounts funding of €1.18 million. The Dormant Accounts Fund is confined - not everyone that would qualify for it - to disadvantage and disability. IFI obviously applied for funding. Three reports were subsequently produced at a cost of €50,000, which is extraordinary. They identified governance issues. As I have a limited amount of time and we are trying to cover a lot in a short period, I ask for short replies. There was an internal audit. Was that part of the three reviews? The internal audit found there was no justification for spending €8,500 on the ploughing championship and €17,500 on Leave No Trace. Can Ms Campion confirm that was a finding?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

That is not correct. It said that IFI should consider repaying a proportion of those amounts.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When IFI applied for this money the expectation would have been that, with the exception of a small amount of spending on administration, it would all have been used to directly benefit people with a disability or facing disadvantage. However, a lot of money was spent on salaries, overnight subsistence and events such as the ploughing championships.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

None of the dormant accounts money went to the ploughing championships, Leave No Trace or the Visitor Safety in the Countryside Group because IFI bore that cost.

In relation to what we do for dormant accounts, it is projects and programmes that would assist the socially and economically disadvantaged, the educationally disadvantaged and persons with a disability. That is in the legislation. IFI is happy that everything we did was on plans and programmes that would assist those particular categories. I can only say that we were so privileged to do it. We have been inundated with requests since we stopped doing it and we are very regretful that it has stopped.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did IFI return money?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Basically, we drew down money in arrears and it was a net off what we were drawing down.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the amount?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

It was €29,740 - something like that. Sorry, I do not have the exact amount.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was in that order.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask a particular question before I asking about some of the legal fees. There was an internal review in July 2022 and another in September 2022 and the CEO reported potential fraud to An Garda Síochána in 2022. It appears that report was only made after the second review. There were two reviews. Why was it not reported after the first review, if that was the case?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

The Deputy is not talking about dormant accounts now.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I am talking about the fraud investigation. There were two internal reviews, in July 2022 and September 2022.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Sorry, on the internal reviews, can the Deputy be more specific?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am specifically talking about the fraud investigations by An Garda Síochána.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many fraud investigations are there?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

There is one investigation.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. We are talking about the same thing.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Sorry, but I first reported the issues to the Garda, along with a number of issues - not just fraud - in July. I went back to the Garda in Ballyshannon in September and made a far more detailed statement.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Once Mr. O'Donnell became aware of the issue, he reported it to the Garda.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

Once I was satisfied that there were very significant issues here, yes I did. I am being very careful here now. The committee can have me back again. There is a very clear reason around the timelines of my making my reports and if I was to speak to them, I could jeopardise the case.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I do not need further expansion now that we have that information.

An extraordinary amount of money has been spent on legal fees. I fully accept IFI will prosecute people, including people who damage the environment. That is the nature of its job. In recent years, legal fees seem to have increased by approximately three times what IFI would normally spend on them. Why is that? Apart from the legal fees arising from prosecutions, on what other areas are legal fees being spent? There are two particular firms, ByrneWallace and Coakley Moriarty, both of which, I believe, are based in both Dublin and New York. What would they be used for?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

If I can go back to the Deputy's previous question in relation to the repayment, we drew down €300,000 in June 2021 but we only spent €256,000. Therefore, we had to give back €43,817. Our figures were based on the fact that the drawdown originally-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I have a reply to my other question?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

No problem. In any event, it was a net-off against a drawdown.

In terms of the legal fees, ByrneWallace got €157,000 in 2021, €235,000 in 2022 and €201,000 so far in 2023.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am not asking Ms Campion how much they got. I know the figure was €1 million when all the fees are amalgamated because I asked a parliamentary question on it. Outside of prosecutions, what is the nature of the escalated spend on legal fees?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

In 2021, we had €235,000 for prosecutions and €90,659 for the judicial review into ALAB, the aquaculture licensing authority or board - I am not sure what the "A" stands for. We had €39,000 in relation to dormant accounts funding.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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IFI spent €39,000 on legal fees around the Dormant Accounts Fund.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Yes, €29,000 was spent on a report and a further €10,000 on legal advice. Then there was €25,000 for other-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that €29,000 spent on the report included in the figure of €50,000?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

A further €25,000 was spent on various other bits and pieces - I will not call them that - such as HR advice, conveyancing and so on.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the HR advice in relation to the issues around the board?

Ms Suzanne Campion:

No, not at that time.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was internal staff.

Ms Suzanne Campion:

Yes, this was 2021.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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As a matter of interest, the Minister will seek additional funds as part of the budget process. I ask Mr. O'Donnell to put himself in the Minister's position following all of the issues that have come to light, such as not insuring vehicles and the dysfunction around the board. Mr. O'Donnell says the organisation is understaffed and requires technical people. Does he honestly believe it is viable for the Minister to seek additional funding in the context of all that we are seeing in this regard?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

It certainly would be viable. I say that in the context of-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it politically viable?

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

We are here today to account for it. I think we have done that very honestly and effectively. It does not change the mandate we have. We have a very significant environmental resource out there that we need to protect, manage and look after for current citizens and future citizens. We are very well placed to do that. We are going to have a governance-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I must beg to differ.

Mr. Francis O'Donnell:

That is okay but, as the chief of the organisation, I have to stand up for IFI today and say that we absolutely accept the fact that we have governance issues.

Those issues are on the table now, we are discussing them and a review will be undertaken by the board. There will be a new board in September. We are extremely cognisant of what has happened. However, it should not mean that I as leader and the members of the executive team would not make our case. What we do is a vocation. I am fully committed to expanding IFI.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The vocational side is done by the people out there in wellies and so on.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are over time.