Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 June 2023
Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport And Media
Transparency of RTÉ Expenditure of Public Funds and Governance Issues: Discussion
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We undoubtedly have our full quorum and I thank my colleagues for being here. Deputy Andrews, as a valued member of this committee, is a connected person with a material interest in the subject matter that is to be discussed so he will not be in attendance. He is being substituted by Deputy Brady, who is here with us and who is welcome. Senator Sherlock is substituting in place of Senator Hoey. The following Members of the Oireachtas have requested some speaking time: Deputy McNamara; Senator Dooley; Senator Murphy; and Deputy Boyd Barrett. Other Members may possibly come along but I would say to those Members that I will have to ensure that our committee members get first priority. However, we will eventually get to them.
I thank our witnesses for being with us; we appreciate it. The joint committee is empowered to consider legislation, policy, governance, expenditure and administration of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and State bodies for which the Department is responsible, and RTÉ is one of those bodies. The committee is meeting representatives from RTÉ to discuss the recent revelations concerning the transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance issues related to the statement issued by RTÉ's board on 22 June 2023.
At the outset of this meeting I wish to explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that privilege is not abused.
Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make her or him identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in the public meeting. I cannot permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Where a member is attending remotely, he or she should confirm that they are attending from within Leinster House before making a contribution via Microsoft Teams. Any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
I emphasise to members and witnesses alike that it is imperative that today's meeting is conducted in a fair and respectful manner at all times. It is important, in the interest of natural justice, that members and witnesses act responsibly on utterances concerning those present today and concerning those who are not present. I will intervene in any exchanges where I deem this not to be the case. I would also like to stress to colleagues and Members of the Houses that it is imperative that we hear and consider all of the evidence put before us today before drawing any conclusions on matters arising. It is of the utmost importance that the committee can conduct itself in as effective a manner as possible.
I will move to the agenda of today's meeting. In a statement issued last Friday evening the committee reiterated its belief that public service broadcasting is a key pillar in Ireland's democracy. Transparency and accountability on the part of our public service broadcasters are fundamental and it is with this focus that the committee welcomes representatives from our national broadcaster, RTÉ, to discuss recent issues highlighting concerns on the transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance issues, following the statement issued by the RTÉ board on 22 June. To that end, I welcome all of our witnesses who are here. From RTÉ I welcome the chair of the board, Siún Ní Raghallaigh; Adrian Lynch, interim deputy director general; Anne O'Leary, chair of the audit and risk committee in RTÉ; Robert Shortt, member of the audit and risk committee and board staff representative; Richard Collins, chief financial officer; Geraldine O'Leary, director of commercial; and Rory Coveney, director of strategy.
I want to note that the committee has invited Dee Forbes, as former director general of RTÉ, and Jim Jennings, as director of content, but regrettably neither is able to attend. On that, this committee stands and remains open to having that meeting at a time when they are available and well enough to attend. We give them our best wishes in the meantime.
The format of the meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which is limited to five minutes, and we have just one opening statement at this point. For the ease of those presenting I also propose that we include a short comfort break approximately halfway through the meeting for five or ten minutes to give everybody a break because it will be a solid three hours. Before we get to that, I want to say this committee has worked tirelessly over the past three years in support of public sector broadcasting and the entity of RTÉ and in trying to find ways that this committee can address the TV licence and the continued funding of RTÉ. We are here to support and ensure that happens. Evidently the revelations that have happened in recent weeks come as a shock to most of my colleagues around the room; to the public, as we know; and to the staff in RTÉ.
That said, we are here to progress. I want today to be seen as the beginning - not the beginning and end - of a process. All my colleagues today are available to sit throughout the summer, if that is necessary, to make sure that RTÉ is in good stead for the future.
With the housekeeping almost out of the way, I remind our guests that the committee will publish the opening statement on its webpage. The statement will be followed by questions from my committee colleagues. Members have been given a rota for the speaking order. We intimated that each slot would be eight minutes. I will extend that to ten minutes as I do not think we will have the chance to get to a second round in order to give everybody as much opportunity as possible.
I ask our witnesses that if a question is directed to them, they answer it as fully and quickly as possible because our time is short. I call Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make her opening statement.
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na baill as an deis labhairt leo. At the outset, I reiterate our profound regret regarding what has emerged in recent days. RTÉ fell far short of the standards expected of us as an organisation. I apologise for this egregious breach of trust with the public.
I am also mindful that this committee, and others, were in the past presented with information that was simply untrue. That was a breach of trust with the elected Members of the Oireachtas, for which we sincerely apologise. The public, RTÉ staff, and public representatives are angry and hurt. We know that our bond of trust with the public is tarnished. We know that trust is precious and, once lost, is difficult to regain. Step by step, we will work to rebuild that trust. We will not flinch in this regard. We know that this will be challenging but we are committing to doing so in order that confidence in Ireland’s national public service broadcaster can be restored. We are committed to providing the committee with as much detail as possible and we wish to be as open and frank as we can.
As members know, and as set out in our statement last week, in late March of this year during a routine audit of RTÉ’s 2022 accounts, an issue was identified in relation to the transparency of certain payments. The auditors sought further information and informed the audit and risk committee of the RTÉ board of their concerns. The audit and risk committee promptly commissioned Grant Thornton to carry out the independent fact-finding review on the matter in question. The facts were established by Grant Thornton and presented to the audit and risk committee of the RTÉ board on Friday, 16 June 2023, and then to the RTÉ board the following Monday, 19 June.
On receiving the Grant Thornton findings, the board asked RTÉ to conduct an internal review of earnings paid to Mr. Tubridy in previous years. Through that review, it was identified that Mr. Tubridy’s remuneration had been understated by RTÉ by a figure of €120,000 over the contract period 2017 to 2019. To be clear, this was understated in the figures that were published by RTÉ relating to the top ten highest earning on-air presenters, which in turn were communicated to the Government, the Oireachtas and the public. Mr. Tubridy’s earnings were correctly accounted for in the RTÉ accounts and the earnings he received were what he was contractually entitled to. In addition, for the record, I confirm that he did not receive an exit fee.
The circumstances that led to this understatement by RTÉ are currently under examination by a second Grant Thornton review and the findings of that review are expected within four weeks. Why this figure was understated, and by whom, is a question we as a board are also very anxious to know the answer to. Within four days of the first Grant Thornton review being received by the RTÉ board on Monday,19 June, the board released a statement outlining our understanding of Mr. Tubridy’s earnings, including for the period 2017 to 2019. The issue has remained under active review and, yesterday, RTÉ issued a further statement detailing its understanding of what happened, how it happened, and who was responsible for different aspects of the arrangement. The full Grant Thornton fact-finding review was also published yesterday.
Separately, we will, of course, work closely with all aspects of the Government-appointed, independent, external review process when it commences. I also wish at this point to acknowledge the upset and distress being caused to the independent production sector in Ireland, a community I know well. Its wellbeing is very much contingent on the wellbeing of RTÉ also. As I have said previously, RTÉ is an organisation of more than 1,800 people. I apologise to each and every one of them for the distress they are experiencing as they deal with the shadow that has fallen over this organisation.
I assure this committee and the public that the board is committed to ensuring that we get full clarity on this, that there is accountability for it, and that it never happens again. Mar fhocal scoir, ba mhaith liom a rá go ndéanfaimid ár ndícheall ceisteanna uilig na mball a a fhreagairt. As public representatives, you deserve nothing less.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I concur with what Ms Ni Raghallaigh said. The committee feels wholeheartedly supportive of all the staff in RTÉ. This has been a difficult time for its board and executive and, particularly as we saw yesterday outside the gates of RTÉ, its staff, who feel anger and hurt. I appreciate her comments on that.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the representatives for attending. We all agree, and the public are of the opinion, that there has been a complete breakdown in corporate governance within RTÉ. Public confidence in how things are dealt with has gone down the chute and credibility has gone by the wayside. The public are of the opinion that it is all down to a select few of the top brass at RTÉ.
We are talking about secret payments of €345,000 that went undisclosed. One can understand why more than 200 staff members were protesting. Their anger was palpable. We now know from Dee Forbes's statement that the payments for 2020 and 2021 were negotiated over months with senior RTÉ executives in financial and legal positions. However, yesterday's RTÉ statement indicated it was only one person who really had all the information. It is clear it goes way beyond Dee Forbes. It was not only one person with all this information. That is not credible. The public will not swallow it and neither will we. To be honest, yesterday's statement leaves more questions than answers.
Dee Forbes said the reason for setting up the commercial top-up for Ryan Tubridy was to retain his services but she never explained why there was a need to hide those payments in the accounts. The first person I would like to ask a few questions of is the commercial director, Ms O'Leary. She had full knowledge of the secret deal when she was asked to raise the invoices in addition to the commercial top-up that were going to be hidden in the accounts. She negotiated the Renault side deal. She was the person who agreed with Ryan Tubridy's agent that the invoices would be paid through the barter account. She actually organised those payments through the barter account. Why?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. Time is of the essence here. Why was-----
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
I was not involved in the construction of the commercial deal. I was not in the room and not part of the negotiations. When the negotiations had been done, I was advised by the then chief financial officer, CFO, and the director general that a commercial element was being introduced into this multi-annual talent deal. This was the first time anything like this had come to me but I was not in the room and I did not construct the deal. I was asked to find a way, first, with the commercial partner, to see whether we could restructure the existing deal with them.
That, on instruction, I represented to the commercial partner.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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At that stage, was it you who agreed that the invoices would be paid through the barter account?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You did not.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking years two and three with the payments of-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the payments - the €150,000 payments. Did you agree with Ryan Tubridy's agent that they would be paid through the barter account?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
In year two, I had no involvement. There was no payment. In year three, I was advised by the director general that there was pressure to pay. There were outstanding amounts. I did not understand at the time that they were underwritten by RTÉ. I was asked to liaise with Noel Kelly Management, NKM, to raise the invoices to the barter account-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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To the barter account. You were asked by Dee Forbes.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You did not raise concerns about that as the director.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was it you who advocated that those payments be listed as "consultancy fees"?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You would have notes, surely, would you not?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You remember the urgency. To have those payments come under "consultancy fees" is not a small matter. Many would say it is misleading and it is inaccurate, even fraudulent, accountancy. Many would be of an opinion with regard to putting it under "consultancy fees". How could you forget something like that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You cannot remember. How could you not remember something like that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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However, whoever processed those invoices and put them through the barter account as consultancy fees would have been you.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is right. Okay.
On the €80,000 paid in fees to the facilitator, who was that paid to? Was it the talent agent?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The €80,000 in fees paid to the facilitator of the deal.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses can come back to us on that.
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
Apologies. The way barter works is the accounts are 50% cash and 50% credits. The arrangement with the barter account, which is standard for media companies here and internationally, is that you build up the credits over time. If you choose to cash them out at the end of the year, the rate is 0.65-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But who was it paid to? Was it the talent agent?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who were they working on behalf of?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Were those fees to pay for the agent who negotiated Ryan Tubridy's pay deal?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Right. So it was. That is the case. That was a long-winded response.
Turning to the new CFO, Mr. Collins, you have said you were not involved in negotiating the contract that was done, but it was concluded by you. Is that correct?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, we know that bit. Time is of the essence.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As CFO, you did not have a problem with those payments being listed as consultancy fees?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No but afterwards, when you-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was it concluded prior to you starting as CFO?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes but was the deal concluded, done and dusted, prior to you taking up your position or just after you took it up?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question is whether it was concluded before you took up you position. That is a "Yes" or "No".
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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After you took it up. You did not have an issue either with-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, but as CFO, you did not say "Hold on a second, that is going in there as 'consultant fees' when we know that this is a top-up payment to Ryan Tubridy." You, as CFO, did not say "Hold on, that is incorrect accountancy, that is not right." Why would you let that go?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why did you not call out the concealment of those fees going into a barter account under the heading of "consultancy fees"? Why, as CFO, would you let that go?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Would you stop?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You did not ask. The CFO did not ask.
Mr. Richard Collins:
No. Sorry. You have to understand the barter account was under the control of the commercial division; it sat outside of finance. The director general obviously took a close interest in this barter account. These transactions were processed through the barter account without any involvement-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You had no oversight of that at all.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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A minute is the most I can give the Deputy.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Just two more questions-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, time is of the essence.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So you were oblivious to it.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Oblivious to it as CFO. Okay.
You were before the Committee of Public Accounts in January 2022 when the director general, Dee Forbes, stated to the members of the Oireachtas committee that the reduction in pay and salaries for the top earners had been achieved. Now we know that in Ryan Tubridy's case that was not correct, to say the least. You sat there and did not correct that as CFO. You let that slide. Why was that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You what?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You did not know that this commercial deal was done with Ryan Tubridy. Is that what you are saying? You had no idea. That is not what you said a few minutes ago.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But you knew he was not being paid in jelly tots. You knew there was money being handed over, so you knew when those salary figures were published that, in Ryan Tubridy's case, that figure was not correct.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And you sat there and said nothing.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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One final question.
Mr. Richard Collins:
Sorry, please let me answer because I did not know that. In finance, we report the published earnings of the top talent but we can only report what we know and what we are told. If we are not given all of the information or if information is concealed or misled from us, we do not have the full facts.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The person sitting beside you did not give you the information. Is that what you are saying? She concealed it from you.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what you are saying.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is my word.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was concealed from you.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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She did not, so.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But this person beside you was involved in negotiating that deal, putting it through the barter account and everything else. The whole-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was not her job to brief you. Right, okay.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Munster, one final-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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One final question. On the 2017 and 2019 payments, Dee Forbes claimed that she never knew about the €120,000 payment, so who signed off on that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There were payments of €50,000, €50,000 and €20,000.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who signed off on it?
Mr. Richard Collins:
This was an adjustment that was made to the figures. Basically, in short, Ryan Tubridy was due a loyalty bonus at the end of his contract of €120,000. That was never paid and never accrued for in the accounts. However, for an unexplained reason, that €120,000 was credited against his earnings between 2017 and 2019. That is under investigation at the moment by Grant Thornton.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But who signed off on it? You would know, as chief financial officer, who signed off it.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked who signed off on it.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We said to the chair of RTÉ and the chair of the board that when we invite these witnesses, we want the questions answered truthfully. The question is who signed off on that deal. Who knew about it?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is to conclude, Deputy Munster. I have to move on.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have to move on.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can I have one short final question?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thirty seconds.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is for Ms Anne O'Leary. I am just curious as to how it took six years for those payments to be identified. Is that not strange?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
As the chair of audit risk, I have a meeting every year with the auditors but I can only query them on the matters they arise. We have a standard number of questions about accruals, about payments and about process. I ask them every year. Every year they have been saying there was nothing to report. Then this year they did.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who was that who was saying there was nothing to report?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, I am going to have cut off Deputy Munster. I am sure the Deputy can appreciate I gave as much latitude as possible.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Cassells.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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First of all, on governance, how did Mr. Lynch allow one man and his agent become bigger than RTÉ? One man was refusing to take a pay cut in the real sense and, to appease him, RTÉ ran off to find someone who would pay him and then pretend to everyone that he was taking a pay cut while secretly making it up to him channelling money from a sponsorship deal. As a result, this man and his agent, being bigger than RTÉ through this side deal, has now jeopardised RTÉ's reputation, integrity and trust with the public. Was he worth it?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Firstly, I would like to apologise on behalf of the executive board for what is a clear breach of corporate governance for a lack of transparency. When you go to the substantive issue of what has occurred here, and I have looked at this over the past seven days as the chair has asked me to stand up and be the deputy director general, in terms of this particular arrangement or commercial deal, the guarantee and the underwriting of it is absolutely critical. On 7 May 2000, a guarantee was verbally given in relation to the fact that if the sponsor fell out, RTÉ would pay Ryan Tubridy. That is the significant point at the centre of this. In that instance, and when that occurred, RTÉ should have declared Ryan Tubridy's earnings.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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On that, because the statement says Mr. Lynch was aware of elements of the deal, regardless of what Mr. Lynch knew, the bottom line is that he and others knew there was a deal and he knew in reality that Mr. Tubridy was being compensated for the pay cut he was not taking. It may have been legal, but does Mr. Lynch not think that at the time that was against the spirit of things? When everyone else was taking a pay cut within the organisation, did Mr. Lynch not think that was sly, deceitful and fundamentally dishonest of RTÉ management? Was Mr. Lynch okay with that? Why did Mr. Lynch or others who had elements of knowledge of the deal not bring that to the attention of the board?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
In terms of this deal, what I was aware of in early 2020, in my role as director of audience channels and marketing I would be responsible for the number of hours that Ryan Tubridy does on television. Any query that would come to me would be in relation to the number of broadcast hours, as it applies to his contract. In this particular situation, there was a suggestion that Ryan Tubridy could do fewer hours and that there was an off-air time of approximately 11.30 p.m. What I was aware of in relation to the commercial agreement was that there were to be three events, subject to finding a commercial sponsor, obviously, because there had to be a relationship between Ryan Tubridy and the commercial sponsor, and if that relationship did not occur, then Ryan Tubridy would not be paid money from the commercial sponsor.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In respect of that deal, because we have seen other payments in respect of the hosting of these public events, was Mr. Lynch aware of this as well in terms of the full aspects of it?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Was nobody aware of that other than the director general, DG?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Given that we do not have Ms Dee Forbes before us, and we do not know whether we ever will, and the statement from RTÉ yesterday stated that the construct of the deal, as Ms O'Leary has said, was with her, can we have a scenario where documents pertaining to this deal will be published so that the public can have full transparency in respect of it?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Something one needs to remember in terms of this is that when we discuss the construction of the deal, what happened here comes back to the underwriting of this arrangement because RTÉ should never underwrite a commercial agreement in relation to a talent to say it will pay out of public funds to that talent. That is what then led to incorrect figures being published completely lacking in transparency and a complete breach of corporate governance.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Why were the payments to Mr. Tubridy anonymised as consultancy fees in the barter account and is that a breach of accountancy rules?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Let us get down to the influence of third-party agents in RTÉ and the construction of deals, the influence of one man who seems to have had more power than anyone else at the negotiating table - "the real DG", as he was nicknamed. On 19 December 2019, we have for the first time the references to the facilitation of this tripartite deal - Santa comes six days early for the boys. Why was RTÉ so afraid of a presenter and his agent, and had Mr. Lynch seen evidence of a higher offer? Was there someone else in the small Irish media market promising to pay him over half a million euro in order that one man was able to command effectively pay increases when everyone else was taking a decrease?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but my question is in terms of the influence of third-party agents within RTÉ. I saw the journalists who were assembled yesterday on the steps of Montrose. I refer to the reporters and researchers who spoke about freelancers who would not be even on a fraction of the top-up money this man was on. I am talking about the influence of agents who can negotiate deals in a tiny Irish media market worth in excess of half a million euro.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a monopoly there with Mr. Kelly, in terms of negotiating deals involving taxpayers' money and in terms of the impact of this within RTÉ?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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The RTÉ statement yesterday is obviously based on a trail of documents and emails over the past few months that were discoverable, but can Mr. Lynch guarantee he was never part of a conversation, a verbal exchange, or a chat in the corridor with Ms Forbes or others regarding this side deal that allowed Ryan Tubridy's sponsorship deal be underwritten by RTÉ?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Lynch has stated it was a verbal arrangement, has Mr. Lynch made inquiries because the suspension of Ms Forbes last week has removed one person from that process?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In respect of the suspension of Ms Forbes, did Ms Ní Raghallaigh have a conversation with her before that suspension?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of setting out to Ms Forbes why she was being suspended, can Ms Ní Raghallaigh tell me what she said to her in that respect?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Indeed. Ms Ní Raghallaigh can appreciate that the suspension of that person has removed the one witness effectively from this process of trying to find out what has happened. The RTÉ statement yesterday squarely put the blame on one person.
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
Actually, the suspension was while the disciplinary procedure was happening. It is the resignation that puts her outside of this. There was a process in train up until the point of her resignation on Monday where it was put to her what was wrong here, and the process had started as regards engaging. We set up a third-party intermediary to run that. We also set up a subcommittee of the board specifically to deal with this disciplinary procedure.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Lynch, this morning we heard that Ryan Tubridy is out of contract, something he has since rejected, and that new contract negotiations have now been paused. I ask Mr. Lynch if Ryan Tubridy will be back on the air at RTÉ?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Lynch envisage him coming back on air in the long term?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Over the past couple of years, we as members have done a significant amount of work with the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act and making submissions to the Future of Media Commission. One of the points stressed in the Future of Media Commission report is that more than 70% of the public have trust in our public media versus 30-odd% in social media. The reality is that has been damaged over the past week. I note Mr. Robert Shortt is present as a staff representative, and I feel for a lot of the staff within RTÉ, those who are not in the 100-plus people who are in management positions and on more than €100,000 per year in an organisation of just over 1,000 people. I do not think any company in Ireland would have figures like that. The chief financial officer, CFO, basically said that the barter account was underneath the control of the commercial division but Ms Geraldine O'Leary said today that she cannot remember who first suggested to use this. Can anybody here remember who suggested it?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Right. Are any other of the top ten earners within RTÉ on similar deals?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Leary. As a committee it is also under our remit to nominate people to the board. Roughly 18 months ago this committee, after a long process, nominated Mr. Larry Bass to the role on the committee, which was basically rejected by the RTÉ board. Was it a case that he was not wanted on the board because he might ask the pertinent questions? For me, looking at and reading the information and the statements we have got, it is a case of throwing the outgoing DG under the bus. Do the witnesses feel, as a board in their various positions, that they are fit for their positions? Was it a case that Larry Bass, who was an extremely experienced person in media, which was the reason he was put forward by this committee, was pushed back from RTÉ? We felt he was the right person for the job who would ask the pertinent questions within the organisation but at the very first meeting he attended, he had to resign because of how we was dealt with. Is that the case?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Are there any comments?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Larry Bass was nominated by this committee, and we have a role in putting forward a member. The committee was basically told by the RTÉ board that he was not wanted. Yet we put him forward because we felt he was a pertinent person but as the witnesses know, and it was in the public domain, he resigned at the very first meeting. It is a case that maybe the person who would ask the pertinent questions that might have uncovered some of these dealings that have taken place was not wanted by RTÉ?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Can I just remind the Senator to stay within the remit of today's agenda.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Yes, apologies. With regard to the auditors, it was mentioned that this turned up in an audit report in 2022. Who are the auditors and why did these figures, the dealings and figures between 2017 and 2019, not show up prior to 2022?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I refer to the figures relating to 2017 to 2019. I am sure those accounts were audited. Was something brought to the notice of the previous board that was not dealt with?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
As I said in the opening statement, in the process where we were validating that all the figures were correct, after discovering this after the Grant Thornton report was issued to us, I requested that we look further back to make sure this had not happened before. It was in that process that we discovered, in validating, that the figures that were paid compared with what was published to the Oireachtas in terms of the top ten earners did not agree in the case of Mr. Tubridy's salary. That happened only a week ago and as a result of that, the audit and risk committee has now engaged again with Grant Thornton. The terms of reference were agreed by the board. Representatives of Grant Thornton are in the building today and are conducting the work. They are confident they will have that completed within the four weeks.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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My question is, should this have shown up in audits done by the auditors for those years?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
Sorry, I beg the Senator's pardon. To clarify, the figures in the published annual report are correct. It is the difference between the figures in the published annual report and what was published in terms of the lists of top ten earners. That is where the issue is. There was a reduction in Mr. Tubridy's line that is incorrect. Does that explain it?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is fine.
Regarding the invoices which were generated by NK Management talent agency. First, the figures should not have been underwritten. Second, I do not think that during the Covid-19 pandemic - I know the person is not here to defend himself - the talent agency should have invoiced the organisation for those figures at a time when companies closed, hundreds of thousands of people were out of jobs and people were on Covid-19 payments. Yet the agency and Ryan Tubridy felt it necessary that he should still get his money. This is despite the fact that due to the downturn in the economy at the time because of Covid-19 and the closure of businesses, he felt himself that he should still get his money's worth. That needs to be highlighted too. I do not believe Mr. Tubridy should have invoiced for those figures but ultimately they should never have been paid. Somebody made the decision, during Covid-19, to pay those when they were invoiced. I think that should have been brought to the attention of the full board at the time and the chief financial officer at the time should have been the person who should have done that and made the decision not to pay them.
The witnesses probably would not be aware, but I myself am a postmaster and would work at home on a regular basis before I came to Leinster House. I was working over the weekend where people pay their television licence and I know RTÉ has lobbied for it to be removed from An Post and moved over to the Revenue Commissioners to increase the funding coming in to RTÉ, basically. I actually agree with increased funding but funding should be across all media sectors, to both regional papers and radio, and not just with the majority of it going to RTÉ. I was working on a couple of days recently and a number of people came in and said they were not paying their television licence. One gentleman actually said to me, "would I rather lose Ryan or Renault the money?" Do they, as a board of directors and executive committee, fear that the licence fee income take will take a serious nose dive because of the actions of management of which they are part? What are the witnesses views on that, going forward?
I apologise again to the public, to our staff and to the Oireachtas about what occurred because it was a clear breach of corporate governance and shows a lack of transparency. The public are outraged about it, as are staff and Members of the Oireachtas, which is absolutely right. Public service media, in which I believe strongly, is about holding power to account, about independent journalism and about many important values that support our democracy. This stands at the absolute opposite end of values. As a board member, I am incredibly ashamed that this happened while I was sitting on the executive board and I feel people's disappointment. Part of the reason is, as someone stated earlier, 70% of the public trust RTÉ. This is a corporate governance issue. It is not an editorial issue. This is not about our journalism or the 1,800 people who work to provide high-quality programming and brilliant analysis. This is a deep breach of corporate governance and a terrible lack of transparency around events.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I welcome our guests. As we know, the scandal involving defective payments, Dee Forbes and Ryan Tubridy is at the centre of grave concerns of the staff, management and the public. I have a few questions. RTÉ has stated that a disciplinary process is ongoing. Why did RTÉ accept Ms Forbes's resignation when it knew it would be "curtains" as regards her appearing before the committee or otherwise getting to the bottom of this. We have already heard the acting deputy director general was not aware of anything or did not ask anything. I imagine that when he started, he read into the brief to try to find out what his role was, what kind of a gang or board of people he was with and what kind of policies they had. Why did RTÉ accept the resignation?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The board could have refused it as RTÉ was in the middle of a process. In fact the process had barely started. RTÉ had employed outside agents to oversee that process. How much did they cost and of what value are they if this is what happened? The cord was cut.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That was another disastrous decision. How will we get any answers? It seems as though there was some ready-up and she exited with all the evidence. This is shocking. That is why I called for a Garda investigation. It will be needed at the outcome, with no disrespect to any of the witnesses. That is what is needed because the public have lost all respect. In fairness, 50:50:20 was mentioned. The loyalty bonus is like something from the lotto. Loyalty to who or what? People are struggling and in the pandemic RTÉ overwhelmingly promoted and frightened many people, but that is not for today. I discussed that with Ms Forbes in a previous committee meeting. Loyalty to whom? Who is the RTÉ board loyal to?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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No allegations have been made of criminal wrongdoing.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I did not say that. I said we need a Garda investigation.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I know. I am simply making the point that no allegations-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Taxpayers' money has gone astray. Why are we here? Please. The Chair did not interrupt anyone else. I did not accuse anyone. I am asking for the fraud squad to investigate. I did so yesterday and I will continue to ask because we will not get the answers here today.
Deputy Mattie McGrath: Taxpayers' money has gone astray. Why are we here? Please. The Chair did not interrupt anyone else. I did not accuse anyone. I am for the fraud squad to look at the matter, as I did yesterday. I will continue to ask for that as we will not get the answers here today.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Who does the Deputy wish to respond to his question.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Whoever wants to.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Who is RTÉ loyal to? It is quite simple
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The board has allowed this scenario to happen. In racing parlance, Dee Forbes is out under the traps and gone. She is gone with the wind to play. It is shocking to expect us to listen to this. The board was not able to answer why it accepted her resignation. I am an employer. I understand how difficult situations can be as regards disciplinary proceedings, but you do not allow someone to cut the umbilical cord because it suits everyone. That is what is happening. Who is the board loyal to?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Is it taxpayers, the Government, people who pay the licence fee? I would love to see some of the people who are being prosecuted and threatened with imprisonment for not paying a licence fee get these kinds of chances, get sweet deals and have a 50:50:20 agreement. It is laughable. The board must come up with some answers please. Who was it loyal to? Who was it serving? RTÉ is the public service broadcaster. It has ads about the truth by RTÉ and this is going on. The acting deputy director general stated he joined the board and did not know any of this. He just came in at a crevice and went along with the system. We must remember that other presenters were getting €900,000. When I came into the House in 2007 I asked questions, and again in 2010. This culture is a longstanding practice. Mr. Lynch probably knew of the culture when he joined the board so he did not ask any questions. Is that what happens?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That does not deal with the culture. It is all grand now because RTÉ has been found out. The committee is trying to elicit answers through the Chair and we cannot get them. The public are aghast. When I go to RTÉ I am well treated by decent, ordinary people who are working hard late into the night and giving their service. It is unbelievable to see this. Putin would not get away with some of the tricks RTÉ got away with. I hate using that parlance but this is "Ballymagash", back to Frank Hall. Goodness gracious we have come a long way since then. RTÉ must take the public, including the poor people who pay their taxes and licence fees, for complete patsies and fools. RTÉ is making a case for additional licence fees while it crushes TG4 and wonderful smaller stations.
When Ms Forbes was here with her partner, whose name I cannot remember - that is no disrespect to her, I just do not remember it - I asked her about a female producer who had contacted me because she was forced to resign at 65.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy McGrath stick to the topic? It is a specific topic.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am. This is a culture. She was forced to resign while male presenters were getting sweet deals to stay until 70. Court cases were mentioned that day. It cost the State a lot of taxpayers' money to defend the first case in which RTÉ was found against for discriminating against females and RTÉ lectures us day and night about equality. That happened under the watch of some of the board - perhaps not those present - and it will continue to happen because RTÉ can get away with it. Who is the board loyal to? Who is it supposed to serve?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Loyal to.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I apologise. I did not accuse the witnesses of lying.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Questions are being asked about top-up payments and who else would take on - I will not mention the personality. Who else will pay? We were told back in 2010 that presenters might move to the BBC or elsewhere.
RTÉ was also dealing with Mr. Kelly and paying through a British company. I am not being anti-British, but does Brexit create any worries about dealing in that kind of manner?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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None. We should go back to the fair days when we would make a deal and spit in the hand. Now we have to go to England for it. Barter companies should not exist. The public service is accountable. It should not have to have barter companies and private deals with companies to guarantee someone that if the moneys did not stack up, the taxpayers' would pick it up.
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
One of our obligations under the Broadcasting Act is to maximise commercial revenue. We only take these campaigns when we have airtime that otherwise we would get zero money for. It is less than 0.05% of our overall revenue. There is not a large number of them but we do take them because otherwise, we would earn zero money for that particular airtime. We only take these campaigns when we have available airtime.
I would also like to answer one of the question from my perspective with regard to who we are loyal to. From my perspective, while public funding is obviously absolutely key, it is also worth saying that our commercial revenue is also hugely critical to everything we do in RTÉ. We have huge loyalty from our customers, both domestic and international and we talk to them about trust all of the time. We talk to them about how we deliver their campaigns and how they can trust us. We have a job to rebuild there but from my perspective, I would like to add that we are also incredibly loyal to all of our customers.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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To who?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That is Ms O'Leary's version of it.
How does RTÉ plan to address the significant reputational damage caused by this scandal, and to rebuild the trust and commitment to transparency, integrity and accountability?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The reputational damage caused by this scandal.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The board.
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
Yes. On behalf of the board, I can say that we are committed to building up the trust again. This has caused untold damage to the organisation. There is a new director general starting on 10 July, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, and we have obviously had discussions about this. We have identified a lot of the weaknesses in relation to how this could have happened and the weaknesses in governance. We are setting out addressing those, some of which we have already addressed, and we have implemented changes in relation to it. We are communicating that as well. The Government is also doing its own review and obviously we will be co-operating with that. We have started that process already.
With regard to the payments around barter and all of that sort of thing, all of that process is now tightened up and is completely under the control of the finance unit.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Thanks for that. Look, I do not have faith in the board. As I have said, the board accepted the resignation of Ms Forbes in the middle of this storm and hurricane that was blowing up. All the time, the board was advertising the hurricane and the storm as orange, but this was red. This must have been a red flag for the board. Surely to God the competency was in the board and the executive board when this resignation was tendered to not accept it, or to question it and discuss it and to get the answers. This would have allowed us to get the answers, and the public, the media, the taxpayers and the licence fee payers to get the answers. That was a major fundamental out-the-gap job, as far as I am concerned. It is a major cover-up: "Everything will be grand and she will take the hit and we will all be fine." That does not-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McGrath, we will have to conclude because we have gone way over time.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Okay. I appreciate that. This is my summing up. I have no faith in what the witnesses are telling us.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Just to make it clear that this is the Deputy's own view-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Of course it is. You do not have to drive me down please Chair. I am saying myself-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the Deputy's point but we will have a private session and we will encompass-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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And remember that in two days, the committee will-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Can I speak?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Of course.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will have a private session at the end of this and articulate the views of the committee concluding this hearing today. I just want to make that point that these are the Deputy's own personal views.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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With due respect-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They are my personal views. I have no faith in this cabal to tell us the truth.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The first thing is to thank all the witnesses who attended this hearing today. The crucial point of the hearing is that we understand more about the shambles that appears to be corporate governance within RTÉ, and that coming out of this, we would have a stronger RTÉ, a more transparent RTÉ and an RTÉ that has fairer working conditions.
During the week we had statements in the media from the top ten RTÉ presenters about their fees. Were any of the witnesses aware of top-ups or side deals to those outside of the top ten presenters? I am conscious that we do not have the head of human resources here today. I also am conscious that we are getting answers that are very individualised about what people individually knew as opposed to what the board knew collectively. If I could just get a yes-no answer on the question of whether the witnesses were aware of top-ups or side deals from any other member or worker within RTÉ outside of the top 10 presenters? I will start with Mr. Coveney.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I have three sets of specific questions for Ms O 'Leary, for Mr. Collins and for Ms Ní Raghallaigh, but first I want to ask Mr. Shortt - as the staff member on the board - what he believes now needs to happen within RTÉ to move forward from this awful crisis that has engulfed the national broadcaster. What needs to happen to the executive? I am conscious that I have another set of questions but I am sure that Mr. Shortt has something to say on this matter.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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What needs to happen to the executive and within RTÉ to try to re-instil confidence in the public broadcaster and to reassure staff now that these issues are going to be comprehensively dealt with?
Mr. Robert Shortt:
I do not believe we are at the end of this. By virtue of all of the questions that all of the committee members rightly have, we are not at the end of it. Starting with our own actions on the audit and risk committee, we have put a train of information, as soon as we have had it, into the public domain. We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
On the broader job that needs to be done in rebuilding trust in the organisation and rebuilding trust for staff in the organisation, many of my colleagues have spoken far more eloquently than I could about the anger they have felt. There was also the protest yesterday. My colleagues are acutely aware that they need to keep doing their jobs. They are committed to keeping on doing their jobs. That is going to be a key part of rebuilding trust in RTÉ. In order to do that, we also need the committee's assistance. I believe that the goal here is to regain trust in public service broadcasting and to regain trust in RTÉ. We need to continue to try to find out everything that needs to be found out until you guys have no more questions to ask of us. As a member of staff on the board, I will continue to work towards getting whatever information is there that needs to be got out, and that need to be got out quickly as possible.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Shortt. As the commercial director, I must ask Ms O'Leary is it good enough that she cannot recall the detail of the invoices and that there was no paper trail within her office? This is particularly pertinent when we have learned from the Grant Thornton report that those invoices accounted for 70% of the value of the purchases going through the barter account in 2022. What does it say about the dynamics within the organisation of RTÉ that Ms O'Leary acts on instruction and does not ask questions?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
The first thing I would say is that yes, these two payments represented 70% of the transactions because the barter account is normally relatively small transactions, which would come through my office. I am not normally somebody who raises invoices. That is not part of what I do. This was an unusual situation where I was asked by the director general to raise invoices or to advise my assistant to raise invoices for NKM.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Is it exceptional then that Ms O'Leary would not even communicate with the chief financial officer if it is unusual for her role to be raising invoices at all?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I think what we are hearing is a story of Chinese walls and that divisions are working in silos and not communicating with each other. It reflects an utter dysfunction as an executive if an unusual transaction has never been brought to the attention of the executive. If I picked him up correctly, the chief financial officer said a few minutes ago that the first he understood of these transactions was in March of this year.
Is Mr. Collins saying there was no inkling at all in 2022 that unusual transactions were taking place in the RTÉ organisation, which were financial in nature?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Mr. Collins had no knowledge and no inkling whatsoever.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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There is an ambiguity to Mr. Collins's answer. We see from the Grant Thornton report that the barter account was previously outside of the financial statements but was brought into the balance sheet two years ago, if I understand correctly. How could it be the case that if the barter account was on the balance sheet for the past two years, he had no knowledge of these events last year, and that it took until March of this year for action to be taken?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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When did Mr. Collins know?
Mr. Richard Collins:
Sorry, let me finish. The manner in which they were brought on was as a year-end adjustment. They were not reflected in the monthly management accounts. Hence, in 2022, they were posted into the accounts as part of the year-end accounts when they were being prepared in February and March 2023. The auditors examined it then and that is when it was brought to my attention and came onto my radar.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Mr. Collins is saying that his department had no knowledge at all of this last year.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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But they did not feed them to Mr. Collins as chief financial officer.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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That raises serious questions about the operation of the finance department, if there was no follow-up to Mr. Collins if these were unusual transactions. I want to ask about the end of contract payments. To many RTÉ staff, the concept of out of contract payments for certain, though not all, individuals, and having to find a way to offset those is a real kick in the teeth. I want to understand the nature of these payments. Are they a standard part of the contract negotiated with an agent on behalf of a contractor providing services to RTÉ?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Who in RTÉ has end of contract payments as part of their contracts?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Other than Ryan Tubridy.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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That is the only time there has been an end of contract clause.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I have a question for the chair. I am conscious Ms Ní Raghallaigh is only in the role a few short months and she faces a gargantuan task to re-instill confidence in the national public broadcaster. Do she accept she is presiding over a dysfunctional executive?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
To the Senator's point, there is a culture in RTÉ, which accepts, "Well, that's approved by the DG, so I am not going to talk about it." I think all of the people here would agree that is wrong. I am only there seven months, but for me that was also the shocking part of it. The conversations we all assumed would happen were not happening. Each is in their own individual area. As the Senator said, it is siloed.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I would like to ask about the business model in RTÉ. On one side, there is somebody on a fixed-term contract who has to go through an arduous contract review group process to try to become a permanent employee. On the other is this opaque system for negotiating with "talent" in RTÉ. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh believe that is the right model? It is important to say we have only seen two major defections from RTÉ since Century Radio came on the scene 30 years ago, yet RTÉ has paid enormous sums to a small number of people, and bent over backwards to facilitate one individual. Do Ms Ní Raghallaigh believe that model is sustainable, and does it need to be changed?
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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This is my final question. Given what Ms Ní Raghallaigh has said about effectively having a dysfunctional executive, which is why she is here today, what needs to happen now? Surely it is not just about a new DG being in place. I am concerned that there might be a witch-hunt against one particular individual. What systemic changes need to take place, to turn the ship around?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
The culture comes from the top down, and there is a role for the executive board to own the issues and discuss it with the board. We have to talk that through in terms of how that has permeated right down into the organisation, which is exactly what the Senator is talking about. I say again that this is a people organisation. There is a resource of people in RTÉ, who are the epitome of public service broadcasting. You cannot buy it. This has built up since the foundation of Radio Éireann and we have to respect that and understand we have jewels in the crown in terms of what we have to build on. However, the management function of the organisation has to be seriously addressed.
Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh. I know Mr. Coveney wants to respond as well.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Just to wrap up.
Mr. Rory Coveney:
I was in RTÉ for the last scandal. The circumstances were different but it was substantial and public trust was damaged after the "Mission to Prey" fiasco. I will echo what has been said. It is obviously not just about one man coming in, but when Kevin Bakhurst joined last time, he came in to pick up the newsroom and rebuild trust in our journalism, the confidence of our journalists and in investigative reporting. In the choice the chair and the board have made for the incoming director general, I think he is pretty well equipped for the task at hand. It is obviously not about one person but he has some experience there. There is a lot to be done. We all have a lot to do, and a lot to reflect on, but I think he is a good option-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I am going to stop Mr. Coveney there, as I need to come back to members. Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan has ten minutes.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will get straight into it, as those ten minutes will not be long going. I will start with Mr. Lynch. Senator Carrigy alluded to the fact that the former director general, Dee Forbes, was thrown under the proverbial bus. When I first read the statement yesterday, I was struck by a few things in terms of its timing. It came after the former director general, Dee Forbes, resigned. A lot of the blame in that statement seemed to be laid at the feet of Dee Forbes and the former CFO, who are no longer part of the executive board. I would not blame people for thinking there had been some type of concerted effort or meeting within the executive board, and possibly the board, to put the blame firmly at the feet of the people who had gone and to absolve themselves. Is that fair enough? Is that what happened?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I will address that. For the past seven days, I have looked at correspondence. I have been supported by the legal function to look at the contracts and all of that to put together a timeline of events. There are a couple of things here. There are key questions that still need to be addressed, and we will come to those in a second, but this is not good reading in terms of corporate governance or transparency.
It is the total opposite. From an executive board point of view, we absolutely own the fact that this feels siloed and fragmented, and the fact that talent contracts do not come to the executive board.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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You are laying all the blame in terms of the contracts and the agreements at the feet of the former Director General?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
If you look at the line that is actually written, it is about which members of the executive board had knowledge that the published figures were incorrect. As we have discussed, there is controversy around the top ten and when they get published, so it is about which members were actually presenting figures that were incorrect to the Houses of the Oireachtas. Why did that happen? Looking at the documentation that is available, on 7 May, a verbal guarantee was given to underwrite the commercial arrangement with Ryan Tubridy, which was completely lawful and so on, but then through Covid that commercial arrangement fell by the wayside.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We know what happened. I must move on. I want to know what other documents you examined. Your statement is contradicted by the former Director General's statement. Your statement basically sets out that the former Director General was the only one who had all the relevant information, but the former Director General's statement states, "Following detailed discussions including numerous internal communications over many months with RTÉ colleagues, including finance and legal colleagues, an agreement was reached..." Who was the former Director General communicating with internally?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so you were aware of the underwriting and guarantee part?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Were any of the seven witnesses here today aware of the guarantee element of the third-party payment?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
When the payments for years 2 and 3 needed to be paid, and through the amount of conversations I had directly with the Director General in relation to finding that they needed to be paid, I understood it was part of the agreement, as I said. I know it is frustrating to talk about who knew what, but I only knew about the commercial element of the deal. I had no idea what this €75,000 represented in terms of the overall value.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did any of the executive board outside-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to come back to that. There was mention of pushback against this approach of the underwriting and the guarantee. Who was pushing back? Did someone have a conversation with the former Director General and say they did not think this underwriting and guarantee approach was the right way to go?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Who was aware that the underwriting guarantee approach was one that the Director General was looking at?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did you, at any point, advise the Director General that this guarantee or underwriting of payments was not the way to go?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did you or anyone on the executive board advise the Director General that RTÉ should not proceed with this underwriting guarantee of a third-party payment?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is lawful, but it is completely unethical, as we know.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is still very muddy. There is talk about pushback and awareness of some members. Obviously, the director of content is not here today, but apparently, according to the statement, he was kept informed of elements of the agreement. Do we know what he was informed of? Was he informed of that guarantee underwriting element?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so there was an awareness that the agent wanted a guarantee on the executive board-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----but nobody thought to check for it after, during the years 2020, 2021 and 2022, even though it was mentioned and there was an awareness of it?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I cannot speak for the director of content, but what I would say is that while the correspondence, which I would have seen, shows it going on and on over the last seven days to the last six months, there was no way RTÉ would underwrite a deal like that. Immediately when you underwrite that deal, there is risk. It is a commercial agreement that brings risk with it, because basically if you cannot fulfil an arrangement with the sponsor, then RTÉ is paying Ryan Tubridy directly.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We know how it works. My concern is that there was awareness that this was potentially an approach. There was awareness that this was a request from the agent, but no one sought to keep checks on it, to enquire, to ask whether the Director General had stuck with that approach or not, and therefore we are in this position. I do not think there can be complete absolution from involvement there.
I want to come back to Ms Geraldine O'Leary. I think you said you cannot remember elements of the invoice. Were you aware that the invoices pertained to the payment of Mr. Tubridy?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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You were aware.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did the term "consultancy fees" not jump out at you at that point?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thought you raised the invoices in May 2021 and 2022.
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
Yes, they were raised in my office, but I did not see the invoices. I did not see the actual terminology of the invoices. They were raised in my office. On the conversation about consultancy fees, as I have said consistently, it may well have been a conversation with me and the Director General, but I do not want to say it was because I cannot remember the precise conversation. I am choosing to be honest, rather than giving an answer that I am not 100% on.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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If your office, that you obviously oversee, knew that invoices pertaining to the payment of Mr. Tubridy containing the phrase "consultancy fees" had been raised, and I am not sure what Mr. Tubridy would be providing consultancy for, would that not have raised flags?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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But you knew the invoices pertained to the payment of Mr. Tubridy.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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You say you did not see the invoices directly yourself. Again, I think it is seriously concerning that there was such a lack of oversight within your office. Clearly, there were not the checks and balances to see that. I think it beggars belief, to be honest, that the term "consultancy fees" on an invoice that pertained to the payment of Mr. Tubridy was not flagged at the time.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Collins, I certainly would consider €150,000 a lot of money. It is significant. Would you consider that a significant amount?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I picked that amount is that I think that is what the two invoices of May and July we are talking about added up to. As Chief Financial Officer, CFO, that was completely outside your remit and you had no oversight whatsoever of payments of that scale.
Mr. Richard Collins:
Well, in the rest of the business, yes, but not what went through the barter account. In terms of significance, large amounts had gone through the barter account in previous years, like 2018 and 2019. It was not unusual to have figures of €75,000 or €100,000 going though that, with oversight from the Director General. When I saw that it was approved by the Director General, that was the internal control and that gave me comfort.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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To me, it is a case of laying all the blame at the door of the Director General. I think that clearly what has been demonstrated here is a lack of oversight and a lack of checks and balances, including from the CFO, pertaining to the years that you were there from 2020 to 2022. That is for something that is apparent to me. I will finish because I am out of time. I suppose this is a statement rather than a question. The culture within RTÉ, especially among the top brass of RTÉ, seems rotten, as is the idea of special treatment for one person. We all saw the scenes of RTÉ employees protesting and having the bravery to speak out about what they thought was completely unfair treatment. They had to watch colleagues being laid off, had to fight for every cent of payment they got, and had to work with freelancers who, in many instances, were treated despicably. It will be lost on a generation, but my first memories of RTÉ were of Bosco and his magic door, and Fortycoats with his 50 pockets. It seems to me that Bosco and his magic door are still present in RTÉ and so is Fortycoats and his 50 pockets.
This culture must be changed and stamped out. I am not sure if the members of the current executive board are the people who can do that, but we will see what happens. I thank the witnesses.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am mindful that I said we would have a five-minute sos to give everyone an opportunity to get a mouthful of water or whatever else is required. Would it be okay to do this now? Does Deputy Dillon mind if we take our five minutes now and give everybody an opportunity to leave the room, go to the ladies or do whatever they need to? No. We will resume at 3.05 p.m.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Dillon has ten minutes.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses who are joining us today. My first question is for Ms Anne O'Leary. Is it correct that she is the chair of the audit and risk committee? Why did the routine auditors, Deloitte, unusually contact the RTÉ audit and risk committee about the matter on St. Patrick's Day, which is a bank holiday?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This happened on a public holiday. Would Ms O'Leary normally work on a public holiday?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What happened following this conversation?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was his principal concern?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
It is that there were two invoices. He did not say specifically who they were for. He said they had been brought up in the audit and they needed further investigation. I said that I was unhappy with him and his team investigating it and my first reaction was to put in Grant Thornton because I had done some work with them before.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What were Ms O'Leary's concerns with Mr. Howard investigating these irregular invoices?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
He had no real explanation for them and that bothered me, so I thought that I needed to put in Grant Thornton to take a look at it. He also said that there were potentially other issues there as well, and I just thought the easiest thing to do was to move Deloitte aside and put in Grant Thornton.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Ms O'Leary raise this with any other executive board members or management?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Were minutes taken at that meeting?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the action items that resulted from that meeting, what were the next steps that proceeded?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
We were to give the terms of reference to both Grant Thornton and Arthur Cox to make sure they liaised together. We put very clearly what we wanted them to go through. We spent a number of months when I chased them up, probably once a week, to check on progress. They knew they were going to have to go through email exchanges to deal with those two invoices.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Tubridy informed at this time?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was the management team informed?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could I ask Ms Ní Raghallaigh why the routine audit report by Deloitte, which first raised the irregular payments, has not been provided to the committee?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the routine audit that Deloitte performed on where the issues arose been published or will it be published?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When will the accounts be published?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the Grant Thornton investigation of the 2017 to 2019 internal review, why has the internal review identifying the €120,000 worth of undeclared payments not been provided to the committee? Is there a reason that has not yet been published or furnished?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, Ms Ní Raghallaigh said it will take four weeks.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to Deloitte's work. Deloitte performs routine audits. Is it Grant Thornton that is doing the review? Who is doing the review?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask the CFO about the off-balance sheet operations from the barter account. Is this related to why Deloitte raised the issues back in March, and its subsequent operations?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That was as a result of Mr. Collins's decision to put it on the balance sheet.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Retrospectively, has Mr. Collins gone back to see if there have been any other unclassified invoice payments through barter accounts that have raised concerns with him as CFO?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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To date, Mr. Collins has not done that.
Mr. Richard Collins:
I have done an overview but nothing stands out. It will be investigated thoroughly. The issue that happened here is that an invoice was mislabelled and the true nature of the invoice was concealed. If you back through all the invoices that have gone through that account, unless you pull out the documentation and really follow up on it, how are you going to know if there was an attempt to conceal it?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ms Geraldine O'Leary, Mr. Collins's colleague seated beside him, is the commercial director. She has the responsibility for operating the barter account. Has Mr. Collins discussed with Ms O'Leary the transactions that have been made in recent years in terms of the concealment of invoices?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can Ms O'Leary provide clarification? We know of the €150,000 payment made to NK Management. Have there been any other payments that Ms O'Leary is aware of in relation to further transactions that have been off-balance sheet?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Leary stated previously that she was not in the room with the former director general, DG, in regard to the arrangements made for this barter account, but pressure was subsequently applied by the DG in order for her to authorise these invoices. What was the nature of the pressure that was put on Ms O'Leary?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
To be clear, I was not in the room when the commercial element of the deal was negotiated as part of this. In 2020, as we know, I did the deal with the commercial partner. It took two years because of Covid but there was a transaction where they got three high-profile events with the presenter. I was not across any commercial deal in 2021 or 2022. In 2021, the director general spoke to me on a number of occasions about whether another commercial deal could be done. My answer was "No". I was very conscious that we still had not delivered the first deal, so the answer was "No". She spoke to me a number of times in early 2022 and said we need-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How close was Ms O'Leary's relationship with Ms Forbes?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did alarm bells not go off with Ms O'Leary in relation to the payments to be accounted for in a very transparent and clear accountancy practice?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I find it extraordinary that in considering these payments, Ms O’Leary did not seek advice from the board and gave no consideration to it.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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But Ms O'Leary was aware it was going to one of RTÉ's star presenters.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In terms of corporate governance, this was a serious breach.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was Ms O'Leary not aware that RTÉ had a cap on salaries and restructuring? Did that never cross her mind in respect of who was being paid?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
As I said previously, I had no idea what the €75,000 represented as part of Ryan Tubridy’s overall earnings. That is not something I am privy to. All I knew was there was this element of a multi-element deal that I was being asked to work through. I had no idea what that €75,000 represented as a percentage of his overall earnings.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Lynch agree the deep breach in corporate governance identified by RTÉ is the failure of a small group or is it solely on the shoulders of the former DG?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
It is obvious when reading the report that, for example, one can see the relationship between the executive board members is quite siloed in terms of information. Information was not shared around the payments, for example, that Ms O’Leary just spoke about. There is a lot of bad practice. That is something-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Have all executives reflected on their current roles as a result of this? We have had one casualty who was suspended and then tendered her resignation. We also have Mr. Tubridy, who is a second casualty. Has anyone else in this room reflected on their practices related to this scandal that has put the public broadcaster in a difficult reputational position? We still lack accountability and transparency. It is disappointing because we expected to get answers to questions but still we have that lack of accountability.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Transparency is at the heart of this issue. The deep anger felt by the staff is because they feel betrayed by the executive board of RTÉ involved in this deal. Trust can only be rebuilt by a more transparent management culture. I urge the witnesses, rather than publish only the salaries of the top ten on-air presenters, to publish the top 100 salaries across the organisation. Can they do that? Will they do that?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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It is only right. When the executive board negotiates with staff and unions, the board knows what the staff across the organisation get but the staff do not know what the executive board gets. In some cases, people are on more than the DG. The DG’s salary is in the public domain; the salaries of all the top executives should be published too.
I ask Ms O'Leary about the issue of commercial sponsors and patrons. It is, in this case, fraught with difficulties for an independent public service broadcaster. That is the model of our national broadcaster. There appears to be an unhealthy relationship between some RTÉ personnel and commercial companies. I would love to know, and for the committee to know, how many journalists and presenters receive free cars. How would that fit editorial standards?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
I am not across any deals between customers or clients and talent, apart from this one where I brokered the deal with the sponsor in 2020. Normally, any deals done where a presenter gets a car from whoever they get it is done either through the talent’s agent or directly. It does not come through me.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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So it would go through the agent.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Can anyone present answer on the editorial appropriateness of that, if it is not for the director of commercial? Is it appropriate for journalists, presenters or correspondents in whatever area of the news to be given cars by sponsors?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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A private company – an agent – is making big profits representing the vested interests of talent, negotiating their pay, getting them speaking gigs and doing their promotion. When a presenter of a show on the public broadcaster is interviewing a client of the same agent, does that represent a conflict of interest? Are they given favourable treatment by virtue of the fact they are represented by the same agent?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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If they are represented by the same agent, should that be made clear? Should there be declarations of interest? Are listeners and viewers entitled to know that?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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The RTÉ statement yesterday said there was no illegality and payments were made pursuant to an agreed contract. Is RTÉ satisfied that the relationship it has with NK Management is consistent with competition law, with its legal obligations and with best practice in public procurement? Are there grounds for an investigation into the relationship by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission if there is anything going on that is anti-competitive or that involves price-fixing?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
I am concerned about those contracts as well and one of the things I am putting on the agenda for the next audit and risk committee is to get an internal audit first to get more detail before I may have to do a more serious audit. I take the Senator's concerns and I am very concerned about it as well.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Does RTÉ go to any other talent agencies, management companies or individuals not represented by agents when they have an idea for a new project or programme? Does it go out to tender?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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If the production was in-house such as "The Late Late Show", is there a public procurement process for that?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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For an in-house production where RTÉ does not go out to an independent production company and where it is not a commission.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Where RTÉ is hiring on-air talent.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Does RTÉ go out to public tender for-----
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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No. I am assuming when RTÉ has an idea for a show, it may go to an agent and see what list the agent has.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Lastly, RTÉ has a tarnished record when it comes to employment law, particularly bogus self-employment. What is the justification for treating workers as companies when they provide their labour, are under the control and direction of RTÉ, work exclusively for RTÉ, and meet all the criteria of an employee? What is the justification for treating these people as companies?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I do not know what Mr. Lynch means by "Scope".
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Scope audit is looking into bogus self-employment.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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I apologise. I had to go to the Chamber earlier on, so if I ask a question that has already been asked, I apologise. First of all, I guarantee that nobody in this room has never made a mistake. If people made a mistake, they should put their hands up in the air and admit it. I have never seen that in the past week. It is a word called hatred. Many people are badmouthing RTÉ. In fairness, they deserve it. The bottom line is that the witnesses were responsible for giving Ryan Tubridy €345,000 over the last five years. Let us call a spade a spade. Dee Forbes is being thrown under a bus here. I have my own business. She had to have some kind of allies and people she could sit down and talk to. Did the witnesses have any daily, weekly or monthly meetings? They talked about doing audits. There were findings back in March 2022. How many audits was RTÉ doing each week or month? If there are 1,800 people working for RTÉ, it needs to be on top of it.
We have seven people in the room with seven big titles and responsibilities and, all of a sudden, only one person knows it all. I cannot understand that and just cannot accept it. I want to ask a few questions. Who uses this barter account? Is it used for going to parties? Have any of the seven witnesses ever used that account for themselves? These questions have to be asked. We need to get trust back in RTÉ. It is the biggest media company in the country.
I will be honest that I have two grandchildren, aged seven and ten, and all they are talking about is Ryan Tubridy, for the wrong reasons. He is no saint in this at the moment. Are the witnesses trying to tell me that Dee Forbes ran everything, including all 1,800 people? I managed 60 or 70 people at one stage and if I had not got a good team behind me, I was in serious trouble. This is an opportunity for the witnesses to put their hands in the air. I am not going to say they are telling lies, but someone is telling lies. Something is seriously wrong here at the moment. There are a few questions.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Looking at the substance of the issue, which is that a commercial decision was made to give an undertaking to underwrite a commercial agreement, that is a commercial decision that comes with risks. When the wheels came off the bus slightly with that, it then meant that was activated and money was paid directly from RTÉ to Ryan Tubridy. That then impacted the accounts we published. The Deputy can ask everyone individually here. I can say, hand on heart, that I knew absolutely nothing about that. I had no idea that a guarantee had been given regarding this arrangement.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Are any of the seven witnesses a personal friend of Dee Forbes? Do they socialise with her? Do they meet her? I am sure when one is working in a business, especially with 1,800 people, and wants to ask a few questions, sometimes it is handy to go outside RTÉ and have a cup of tea. Was any kind of socialising done whatsoever? I know she is off today because of sickness. One does not throw one's friends under a bus. Eventually, the truth of what happened will come out. I find it so hard to understand how the seven people sitting in the room do not know anything. If the witnesses all worked for me, they would not be working for me tomorrow, because look at the titles they have. I am not going to start talking about wages and everything else. I get enough abuse about wages as a Deputy. Something is seriously wrong. Can the witnesses tell me what is wrong? There has to be something wrong. Can the chairperson tell me what is wrong?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
Everybody talked about the culture in the organisation. It is not correct. There are silos. The executive board is not functioning as an executive board should. We have to address this. As I said, culture comes from the top down and permeates right into the organisation. It is not right. This is not good.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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How does Mr. Lynch find these six people beside him? Are they going to throw him under the bus too?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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I am calling a spade a spade here. If I was Mr. Lynch, I would be worried that there was no one to provide support. Does Mr. Lynch have any fear of being thrown under a bus?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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I have another question. Mr. Tubridy's question was mentioned by Grant Thornton. It is supposed to be expired. Is there any talk of a new contract for him? Mr. Lynch is director general at the moment. Has he contacted Mr. Tubridy about a new contract? At the moment, his contract has expired. He has an extra €345,000. I am sure he is getting paid when he is not on air.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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If negotiations are suspended, is he being paid at the moment?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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It is unreal. I asked a question about the barter account. Who is using the barter account in RTÉ?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
I can take that. I am not sure if the Deputy was here earlier when we said that when we have airtime that we have not sold, we will take barter campaigns on occasion. It is a small part of our business. There were 56 campaigns in total in 2022. The mechanism by which those are paid for is 50% cash and 50% credits. This is standard in media companies in both Ireland and internationally. All of the credits are added up and taken account of, and then they are reconciled on a monthly basis. The Deputy asked whether the barter account has ever been used for anybody's personal gain. I can say that I signed off on the use of the barter account prior to the new appropriate structures that have come into place. It was always used for our clients and agencies, which is part of our business too. Whether it was an event or a presentation, it was always used for our clients and agencies. It has not been used for personal gain for anybody sitting here.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Who signs off on the barter accounts? Is it Ms O'Leary?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Who checks Ms O'Leary?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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So when Ms O'Leary signed off, the director general was the only one who knew.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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We have a director of commercial and a chief financial officer. My God, there are some great job titles here at the moment. Nobody seems to know what is going on in RTÉ. I am not trying to be smart. It is no wonder the public has lost faith. The witnesses have responsibility for 1,800 people, including researchers and an unreal number of people. The public has no faith whatsoever in RTÉ. Where are we going to go from here?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Would Mr. Lynch not try to lead from the front? He has been given an opportunity by getting this interim job. Would he not have the balls to meet Ryan Tubridy and his agent and try to negotiate a deal? The taxpayers are paying this man for not being on air. As far as I am concerned, according to the RTÉ statement, he does not seem to be the problem, because RTÉ has put up its hands and admitted it made a mistake. If RTÉ is saying Ryan Tubridy has made no mistake, why not put him back on air? It is costing taxpayers money all the time he is off air. Mr. Lynch has been given an opportunity. Would he not say to himself he will sort out RTÉ? If I were him and I were given the job, that is what I would do. We could wait four weeks for another report and a further six weeks for another one, and before we know it, it will be Christmas and then the summer holidays again.
The public is paying the executive board to look after RTÉ. It has a free run. In fairness, nobody can compete with RTÉ, and I am not just saying that for the sake of it. What is Mr. Lynch doing about this? Is there any chance of him lifting up the phone, contacting Ryan Tubridy's agent and asking him to meet to negotiate Ryan Tubridy's position? When the negotiations were going on with Noel Kelly in respect of Ryan Tubridy, who signed them off? Who signed off on the contract? Moreover, who else was in the room? Maybe there was an elephant in the room that no one saw. Was there anybody in the room? These are simple questions.
I come from Dundalk, County Louth. Everywhere I go, I have never seen such anguish. It is unreal. Do any of the witnesses have the gumption to grab this by the scruff of the neck and sort out RTÉ? If they do, I will support them.
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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The problem is the executive board is making no decisions. It is putting everything on the long finger. It is a matter of four weeks until one report and so on. This is our money and, in fairness, Mr. Lynch has been given a job to do and he is the leader of RTÉ now. What is he going to do to change things?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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Does Mr. Lynch agree Ryan Tubridy had the best job in RTÉ?
Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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When he announced in March that he was stepping down from "The Late Late Show", the people who I, along with most members of the public, thought might get his job did not go for the job. I firmly believe, therefore, that an awful lot of people knew what was going on in RTÉ. The witnesses are telling me they did not know what was going on in RTÉ, and other people who did not go for the job are saying the same. I will not mention their names simply because I do not know whether I am allowed to, but a lot of high-profile people in RTÉ who are very ambitious and had the opportunity to take up Ryan Tubridy's job. They must have known something we did not know. There is something seriously wrong when a presenter has the opportunity to get the biggest job in RTÉ and does not take it. As we know, the job has been held by Gay Byrne, Pat Kenny and Ryan Tubridy. These jobs do not come around too often. Was the issue of Ryan Tubridy and these payments known before March of this year?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. This is an important meeting, with another to follow tomorrow at the Committee of Public Accounts, so I thank them all for coming here. A lot of the responsibility does not land on their shoulders and one of the key people who should be here, unfortunately is not, but I hope she will take the earliest opportunity to come before this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts. I am conscious that the make-up of this meeting's witness list does not reflect the entirety of either the governance or executive board. Mr. Shortt is representing RTÉ staff. There has been criticism from members of all the witnesses, in that they each have some direct involvement, so it is important to point out the distinction that Mr. Shortt represents the staff and is in no way a member of either board.
There was some contradiction earlier in respect of Ryan Tubridy's exact position and whether he is in or out of contract with RTÉ. Will the witnesses clarify that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is important to point out that the reason we here in the first instance relates to a shady deal involving payments to Mr. Tubridy, a cover-up and the ultimate exposure of that cover-up. Unfortunately, however, we do not have all the facts. We have the Grant Thornton audit report but we do not have the facts relating to the 2017 to 2019 payments. The opening paragraphs of the Grant Thornton audit report refer to Mr. Tubridy's previous contract, from 2015 to 2020, and the basis on which negotiations commenced with regard to the new contract. The report states there was an opportunity for cost-saving, whereby "RTÉ would no longer be liable for the end of contract fee that was due in 2020". How much was that end-of-contract fee at the end of 2020?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
As per the Grant Thornton report the Deputy referred to, the €120,000 was an end-of-contract payment that was not, in fact, paid. The purpose of the review by Grant Thornton was to ascertain the facts as to why it was deducted from the published figures. This understatement came to light only during an internal review validating prior published earnings requested by the RTÉ board.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That €120,000 was not paid.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Moving on, there is a figure of €425,000. Is that the overall figure?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The barter account is operated solely by the commercial director. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Grant Thornton report states that the consultancy fees "did not reflect the substance of the transactions" and “The Talent Agent did not provide consultancy and the Talent did not provide consultancy.” Many would construe that as amounting to a fraudulent invoice and payment based on that. Does Ms O'Leary have a view on that?
Ms Geraldine Kelly:
The review carried out by Arthur Cox, which oversaw this, said there was nothing fraudulent or illegal about any of the transactions. As I said earlier, a key piece of information is where consultancy fees came up. Despite trying to remember - there were multiple conversations about this - I do not remember whether that was suggested by the director general, me or Noel Kelly, and I have been 100% honest on this.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There is a view, therefore, that nothing is unlawful and there is no fraudulent invoice-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----and that has been examined by the legal section within RTÉ.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How long has the account been in place within RTÉ?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Since 2014, okay. Did anyone else have access to that account or was it solely Ms Geraldine O'Leary who had oversight of it as the commercial-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In 2018, yes. Did Ms O'Leary's predecessor have sole access to it then at that stage?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Certainly the way it is portrayed here, and I am sure the public would have a strong view, in terms of the lack of governance, the lack of oversight, what it was being used for in terms of different trips, golf outings, matches, is that it was being used as some sort of slush fund with no proper accounting mechanism in place. It was off the balance sheet and we now know that it was put on the balance sheet a couple of years ago. While I know Mr. Collins spoke to it already, what led him to take the decision to put it on the balance sheet? Did he have concerns as to how it was being used?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. Collins concerned at the lack of governance and oversight?
Mr. Richard Collins:
I was concerned primarily with the accounting. First, that it was brought on to the accounts, and that it was visible in the accounts because it was not good accounting practice to have what is effectively an RTÉ bank account sitting outside the RTÉ accounts and not recorded in RTÉ's books.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We know that in 2022, there was 25 transactions in relation to the barter account and Mr. Colllins said he has had a preliminary look at it. How does that compare with previous years, once it came onto the balance sheet?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask that a ten-year record of the barter account be published and given to this committee and to the Committee of Public Accounts? It would be a very useful piece of work, if that could be produced as soon as possible.
The Grant Thornton report states, on page 15, that "The Talent's Agent has also advised me that they have identified a substantial number of invoices on behalf of various other clients where the term 'Consultancy Fees' is used". Mr. Noel Kelly makes those remarks in terms of different invoices that have gone in using those "consultancy fees" that we have already been told by Mr. Collins that the true nature of the invoices was concealed, essentially, by using that terminology. Did this substantial number of invoices that Mr. Kelly is talking about go through the barter account?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know where those invoices went?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so Mr. Collins has no knowledge of the whereabouts any of those substantial number of invoices that Mr. Kelly talked about, which have gone in labelled "consultancy fees", and that he himself referred to their true nature being to conceal their true purpose?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is not clear.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It may not be clear but my interpretation is that he was talking specifically about RTÉ. Could we get clarity on that? In terms of the five-year contract negotiated with Ryan Tubridy, we know of the clause for €75,000 in additional payments to Mr. Tubridy. Where is it in writing, that RTÉ agreed to underwrite that agreement? Is there a side letter? Is there something to-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A verbal agreement?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A verbal agreement. So there was a-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On that basis, it was deemed to be legally sound. There was commentary there from earlier on, I think it was Ms Geraldine O'Leary again, she said there was an urgency to raise the invoices based on this verbal agreement that was in place.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Also, just to say, when I was reviewing the files in one of the contracts that were returned, I think it was one of the draft contracts, there was a letter attached to the back which I think was from Noel Kelly's office for Dee Forbes to sign, which was a written version of this guarantee.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A written version of it?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so very unprofessional, very shady and very dodgy in my mind. Can I ask that a copy of the full five-year contract be furnished to the committee? Can the tripartite agreement be made public also?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Any other side letters that might have been signed off on or attached might also be very useful. I have a couple of more questions if that is okay. Regarding the deal for €75,000 and the perceived obligations on Ryan Tubridy to engage in three different public events or commercial gigs, who made the decision or where was the decision taken for RTÉ to pay out €47,000 for those gigs that Renault had put on?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
If we go back to the beginning on the Renault commercial arrangement, as I said previously I was advised about it when the deal had been struck as part of a contract and I was asked to represent it to Renault. The client was very clear from the beginning. They are a very loyal sponsor, they are our longest serving sponsor, and the client was very clear from the beginning that he was coming to the end of year two of a three-year contract. He said he was very happy to facilitate a way that he could have Ryan Tubridy to host events but he was very clear it had to be cost-neutral and those were his words. He was already well over half way through an existing contract and if we wanted it to happen, it would have to be cost-neutral. That was the conversation I had.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was the conversation but there was no written agreement around any of that, was there?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A number of email correspondences?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I presume all of those-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Brady, I have to ask you to conclude.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Can I ask that that correspondence be also made public? I find it absolutely unbelievable and astonishing that without any agreements, side letters or any of that, the whole thing is extraordinary in the first instance. When we are dealing with an organisation that, on the face of it and publicly stating it was on its knees, we had people who were falsely being put on bogus self-employment contracts, and to see that process now at the same time as all of this is playing out in the public, that staff members of RTÉ who were put on bogus self-employment contracts felt they were pressurised into taking payments of between €5,000 and I think €17,000, being pressurised into taking those payments, and at the same time we see all of this play out. It absolutely undermines the credibility of RTÉ-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Deputy.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----at a time when we need public service broadcasting more than ever-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Brady, I have to ask you to conclude.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----to challenge a lot of the untruths out there-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am moving on now.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----and what has happened undermines that. We have an opportunity here to rectify it all but we need honesty.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Brady, please. I have given you as much latitude as possible.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witness for coming before the committee today. I will start by saying that Ms Ní Raghallaigh indicated earlier that the second Grant Thornton review should be completed within four weeks. Ms Ní Raghallaigh, will you give a commitment that you will come back before the committee when the review has been completed and also to answer questions at this stage?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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It seems very clear, and following from the previous set of questions, that Noel Kelly seems almost to be able to dictate contracts to RTÉ and they are simply accepted. I find unbelievable the idea that RTÉ is operating off partially verbal contracts. My next question is for Mr. Lynch. How many people in RTÉ are represented by Noel Kelly?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What is an approximate figure? Perhaps Geraldine O'Leary or another one of your colleagues knows this.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I find it surprising that the executive board does not know how many people are represented. Who was in the room with Noel Kelly when these contracts were negotiated? Who was in the room when Noel Kelly negotiated Ryan Tubridy's contract?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The chief financial officer was in the room with Noel Kelly.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Was there anybody else in the room at the time?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The chief financial officer and the head of legal would have been aware of the contract.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so we are negotiating the contract for the biggest star in RTÉ and the agent for that person is in the room. The chief financial officer at the time was there and somebody from the legal department was there.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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At the very least the director general's office, the chief financial officer's office and the legal office in RTÉ-----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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-----would have known in all of these circumstances. The executive board would have had a copy of Ryan Tubridy's contract. How many of the witnesses would have been aware of Ryan Tubridy's contract? Was Mr. Lynch aware of his contract?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Even though you were the one who was charged with ensuring how many hours Ryan Tubridy was on air, and you had to have complete knowledge of all of that, you did not know what was in Ryan Tubridy's contract.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay but you just knew that aspect of what Ryan Tubridy was expected to do for his contract and not, if you like, what RTÉ was going to pay him.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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When did you become aware, as Deputy Brady asked, of the verbal agreement?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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In recent-----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Then you discovered that detail.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Was a note attached to the file? Did the director general inform you of this?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Collins, I appreciate that you only joined RTÉ in 2020 so you would not have been in the room when the negotiation happened. Did your predecessor as chief financial officer inform you as to the nature of the deal that was entered into?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Do you think it would be unusual practice? You are taking over from somebody in a job that-----
Mr. Richard Collins:
Sorry, let me clarify this because there are two elements to the contract. There is the standard part of the contract like all of the talent has and there is a second part to it, which is the commercial element or the tripartite element. The standard part was handed over to me to conclude. I was not involved in the commercial part.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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You had no awareness of the commercial elements.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I understand from RTÉ's statement that it was made clear that Jim Jennings, one of your colleagues on the executive board, was aware of the agreement with Renault. Did he discuss this with any others on the board? I will ask each of the witnesses.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
From what I can see in terms of looking at all the emails, I can see that he received the contract. That is why I put it down here. I have not been able to clarify. I do not think he had any input. From the mails I saw, there was a mail back to do with this being a commercial agreement. Mr. Jennings, of course, is editorial.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I know that but according to RTÉ's statement he was clearly aware of this. He knew that there was deal with Renault. Did it come up at an executive board meeting at any stage, when he said to anyone that there was a deal with Ryan Tubridy and Renault?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Not at the executive board. Again, this deal was being negotiated between December and May from the dates that I can see. All through that timeline there was a whole set of mails about it. If we look at it there are three pieces to this. This is the substantive contract that is on the file; there is what is now known the tripartite agreement, which was only ever going to be activated from my understanding of what I saw, in January if there was a sponsor-----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I have a number of other questions. Ms Geraldine O'Leary said she knew the Astus, or barter, account invoices were for Ryan Tubridy.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Why was it the case that RTÉ did not require any names to be put on these invoices?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
Again, to repeat, it was my first time having anything to do with a talent contract. I was just aware of confidentiality. I was just aware of pieces of papers being around the office. It was very clear in the conversations between the director general, Noel Kelly and I that these were for Ryan Tubridy.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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So the director general and Noel Kelly came in. What was the name that was put on these invoices?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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So there was no reference, obviously, to Ryan Tubridy on this.
My next question is for Mr. Lynch. In response to my colleague Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan Mr. Lynch said he became aware that this was a commercial agreement with risk the because of the nature of what was involved.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Do you maintain a risk register in RTÉ?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I was speaking in reference to the legal advice. Naturally in any negotiation there is a whole set of things that fall in and out, as I understand it. Again, I was not involved in this negotiation but things fall in and out. If we make a commercial decision and the commercial decision was to guarantee payments to Ryan Tubridy, that is a risk.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I will come to Anne O'Leary. I appreciate the work of the audit and risk committee. In many ways it was she who brought it to their attention. Ms O'Leary, when you became aware of all of this did you have a discussion with Dee Forbes?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
I did. I just told her that this had come up, that I was going to run it through the audit and risk committee, and that I was going to appoint Grant Thornton and Arthur Cox. She said to follow whatever process I needed to. She did not in any way make any comment. Ms Ní Raghallaigh attended all of the meetings that followed on from that to make sure it was well covered.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Anne O'Leary and Ms Ní Raghallaigh have very distinguished records in business. They have a lot of accountancy and auditing experience. They know what has been going on.
You are hearing all of this and you are coming to this for the first time. How can you have confidence in an executive board when you became aware of what are clear lapses of good corporate governance? We are even hearing today about contracts with RTÉ’s top star with bits of verbal agreements put on when other members of the executive board do not seem to know what is going on. Does Ms Anne O'Leary have confidence in the executive board?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
The answer is "Yes, I do." Since I started here, we managed to do an amount of change by improving internal audits, improving procedures and improving procurement. This came as a huge shock. We even managed to do things like the business continuity planning, which they did not have very much of at the time I started. I feel that the audit and risk committee has made huge positive changes. This came as a big surprise but it is our challenge now to make sure we put the procedures in place to make sure that can never happen again.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Ní Raghallaigh spoke and I entirely agree with her that this is a question around culture. When she came before our committee previously, she talked about that. We entirely agree that this is around the culture. The problem is that the perception we have now is that there is a culture of secrecy and of people operating in silos. Clearly, in terms of the contractual arrangements that are entered into, it is not normal HR or legal. How can she have confidence in the culture that seems to exist now at senior levels?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
I am explaining that I do not have confidence in the culture and that is the environment that the executive board is operating within. As professionals, that is a different matter. However, I have confidence in the people there. Remember, we did not know about this until 19 June or 16----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, recent weeks.
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
It is shocking. This is just a complete lapse of governance. It is a complete lapse. The more we look into it, the more we realise and, in fairness to the executive board here, the more they realise how obvious the shortcomings that the culture instilled in the organisation are.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I have three quick final questions, which are about restoring----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Thirty seconds left.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I am regular attendee and I want to get to these because it is important as to where RTÉ goes forward. I share a belief in the importance of good public sector broadcasting. RTÉ needs to come out of this being transparent and accountable. My first question follows on from Senator Warfield's question on possible other contractual relationships outside of RTÉ. Do you believe a register of interests should be established for the top talent in RTÉ, in the same way that applies to politicians? Second, will you publish the arrangement that has been entered into with Patrick Kielty concerning "The Late Late Show" for this autumn? That is essential to restore public confidence. Finally, this is a crucial question. As my colleague Senator Cassells mentioned, this a small media market. In straitened times, do you believe that anybody in RTÉ should be paid more than the Taoiseach?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
I said earlier that my opinion is that RTÉ is bidding against itself in the market. That is part of the culture as well. Perhaps that applied at some point in time but that is not the way the market is working. I think we all know that. The market will decide but RTÉ has to act in relation to that and identify the influence it has in the marketplace in that sense. That, in itself, will determine the level in the market.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Specifically - I think Mr. Lynch might be the best one to respond - I ask about the register of interests and the Patrick Kielty arrangement, because it is in his best interest as well. Will there will be confidence in "The Late Late Show" brand?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If Patrick Kielty is not opposed, RTÉ is happy to publish the entire arrangement around "The Late Late Show". Okay.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Usually being the 12th speaker, there are very few questions left to be asked, but actually there are loads of questions still to be asked, which is an indication of the mess that you are in. Turning towards the chair and the interim director general, I will go back three and a half months. Ryan Tubridy said on his radio show on 16 March that he was stepping down from "The Late Late Show" at the end of that season. The following day, a national holiday, the chair of the audit and risk committee gets contacted by Deloitte, saying there is a problem. That is an incredible coincidence of timing, is it not? Or perhaps someone else in RTÉ knew before 16 March that there was a problem. Will you clarify that for me, please?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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So he knew that this was coming.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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No one at RTÉ knew before 16 March. Ryan Tubridy makes this announcement out of the blue and the following day, just by coincidence, on a public holiday-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did anyone here have any contact or know anything about the invoices before 16 March?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Just to clarify, nobody here had any contact or knew anything about this before 17 March. No. Everyone? No one. Okay.
Second, I refer to Dee Forbes. Last Friday, we met as a committee. It was agreed that we would invite you in and we would also be inviting in the director general. The Committee of Public Accounts had met that morning and agreed the same thing. They will be meeting tomorrow. So you knew last Friday that this was going to be before the Oireachtas this week. Did you ask Dee Forbes to resign? Did RTÉ call on Dee Forbes to resign?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did you ask for it?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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On Monday?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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When you knew that we were raising this and this was coming before the committee, you thought that it was a good idea to call on the chief witness, you could say-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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You knew this was happening. This blew up on Thursday.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. The statement was released before Friday.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Basically what we have here is Hamlet without the Prince. Dee Forbes is not here with us today and would be an invaluable witness. You asked her to resign last Friday. Is that what you are telling us?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The previous Friday. Would you not have thought that we as an Oireachtas would want to investigate this and that the director general in situwould be someone who could give us some accountability and give the public out there - the people who are watching today - some accountability? We were told that her resignation was tendered last Monday. You accepted the resignation.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Why did you accept the resignation? Could you not have invoked clauses to ensure that the key witness would be here to answer questions and that we could compel that person, who would still be in situ, to answer the questions the people of the country deserve to hear the answers to?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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She has the option but not as director general of RTÉ. Did you meet as a committee to discuss this?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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And you made an agreement as a committee.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there a clawback and malus clause in her contract? Is there a clawback clause and will RTÉ be seeking compensation for moneys lost? Has anyone even looked at that?
Will RTÉ seek reimbursement?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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No, but the organisation has lost and the country and taxpayer have lost.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am asking if there is any clause in the contract. Has anyone even checked that?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Will RTÉ come back to me and let me know?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The last time RTÉ committed to coming back to us was in April when it was before the committee and we have not heard a dickie bird from RTÉ since. I asked a number of questions that day and I did not hear a word back since. That is ten weeks ago so RTÉ might take the committee a bit more seriously this time because I did not sense the last time that we were taken seriously.
What did Dee Forbes tell RTÉ when she was questioned about these issues? Who approached her and what did she say?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Has RTÉ found out what her explanations were?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What advice was Dee Forbes referring to in her statement on Monday and from whom was that advice received?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Not that she always followed advice but who was advising her?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Have the chair, Ms Ní Raghallaigh, the interim deputy director general, Mr. Lynch, or anybody before us from RTÉ used the barter account for corporate entertainment or travel? Has anybody here used it?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Could Ms O' Leary give us an estimation of how much she has been responsible for spending on that over the years?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms O'Leary come back to me with specific details on that?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did Ms O'Leary resist efforts by her colleague, the CFO, Mr. Collins, to move the barter account onto the balance sheet?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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In no way whatsoever? Verbally or written?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does RTÉ offer any discounts to advertisers?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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To what extent?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
Over 90% of our business comes through media agencies and we do deals with them. They make annual commitments across all of their clients and across all of our platforms and then the clients within that get various discounts. There are also volume discounts, which might be what the Deputy is referring to, which are included in the contracts and which have certain spend levels.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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When she was asked by journalists last week to address the Sunday Independent story, why did Ms O'Leary refer it to her legal representatives?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Leary was in this situation because this is her job. Would it not be doing her job to answer questions?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Do RTÉ personnel derive any benefits from advertisers?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Are there no corporate events? We are not talking about receiving cars; I am talking about events and receiving concert tickets.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Would you not call that deriving a benefit?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Leary might subsequently expand to us in writing on the types of benefits she had from advertisers.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Leary might also clarify which advertisers are receiving discounts. Is that okay?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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How substantial are they? It would be important that we would know that.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I ask RTÉ to provide as much detail as possible on the specifics of the benefits that have been derived by RTÉ personnel.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask about the side letter from March 2020. We must bear in mind that the Taoiseach had spoken from Washington DC on 12 March and on 20 March the side letter arrived and this was taken to RTÉ with a guarantee to underwrite the commercial agreement. Then it is referred to in the report last night that there was some pushback. Who pushed back?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did red flags not go up? We were in the middle of Covid and the country was paralysed by Covid at this stage. Yet, RTÉ was agreeing to underwrite this guarantee. Did the commercial director or director of content not see this as something that needed to be brought to the audit and risk committee?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What about Mr. Collins?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Should Mr. Collins have been?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Collins asleep on the job so?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Collins need to ask? Was he aware that this was going on?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That is OK; I accept Mr. Collins's response. I ask all of the witnesses if they accept that when the most recent figures were published for the top ten earners in February, which is not that long ago, they would have all seen what Ryan Tubridy's figure was and known that it was wrong and that they did nothing and said nothing.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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No one knew anything was wrong. Mr. Collins is the CFO, he did not know this was wrong and he said nothing.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Collins reject that? What about Ms Geraldine O'Leary?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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There is quite a discrepancy there.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Given that for the side of the House I represent and the organisation I am in the top 220 earners have their salaries published, would RTÉ go a little bit further than the top ten, as was referred to earlier, and at least go to the top 100 earners or everyone on over €100,000? It is time for that in order to rebuild trust in the organisation. Is this something RTÉ will do immediately?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there a code of conduct? Given that RTÉ's top presenters regularly have audiences of hundreds of thousands of people and given that they are people of significant public influence, is there a code of conduct? Does RTÉ need a code of conduct or does it need to upgrade it?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Why did RTÉ switch from Deloitte to Grant Thornton? Does that not damage the reputation of Deloitte?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
I do not intend to do that. Deloitte had been our auditor for quite a while and I relied on it greatly. However, during the period that I have been on the board, Grant Thornton has already given me and the board specific advice about other things. I find it incredibly reliable and that it reacts quickly. There is no intention to besmirch Deloitte in any way. It is just that I have a better relationship with Grant Thornton.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Why was Dee Forbes not provided an opportunity to respond to the report that Ms Ní Raghallaigh issued last night?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We know what RTÉ did but why did RTÉ not provide that opportunity to Ms Forbes?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ would know a bit about journalism and one of the basic principles of journalism is that you provide a right of reply but RTÉ did not do so in this case. Why was that?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was RTÉ afraid of the response?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I will go back to the resignation of Dee Forbes and the board's call for that. Is it a matter for the board members to consider their positions, having made such a monumental error in denying the people of the country an opportunity to have answers to the questions that need to be answered? Do the board members not think that they have made such a massive error in this regard that they need to consider their positions on the board?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh accept that was a mistake? My colleagues and I do not have an opportunity to ask the questions we want to ask of the former director general because her resignation was accepted on Monday, which, remarkably, was two days before this hearing.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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How does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think that people feel looking in at that? It happens that two days before the hearing there is a resignation and the board accepts it. Then, the following day, there is a damning report of the same person.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Everyone agrees that what happened was shocking. It is shocking and what is going on is still shocking but does Ms Ní Raghallaigh not accept that this was a huge error on her part because she has denied the people an opportunity for further interrogation in relation to this?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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That is not what I asked. I asked Ms Ní Raghallaigh if she accepts it was a monumental mistake on her part.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I have asked Ms Ní Raghallaigh a question. I did not give an opinion. I asked if she accepts that it is, either yes or no. Ms Ní Raghallaigh either agrees with me or disagrees. Which is it? I am asking if she would do it again tomorrow. This is what I am asking. Would she?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Ms Ní Raghallaigh knows that our remit only stretches so far. The witness knows that well.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am asking Ms Ní Raghallaigh now if she accepts that she made a mistake or does she stand over her decision?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did anyone on the committee-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did anyone on the board flag that actually maybe there would be some public scrutiny deserved by the people on this and that having the director general still in situ to answer questions would be a good idea? Did anyone think of that?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was that raised by anybody at the board?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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No. Because we do not matter to you and that is the bottom line. The people do not matter to you.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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In fact, ten weeks ago Ms Ní Raghallaigh was before the committee and was asked a number of questions. She did not even come back to us since then. That is how much regard Ms Ní Raghallaigh has for the Oireachtas and how much regard she has for the people. Her actions this week in seeking the resignation and in accepting the resignation sum that up.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I must ask Deputy Griffin to conclude now.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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A question was asked earlier about whether or not RTÉ intends to establish a register of external interests and a register of participation in external events. RTÉ is, hopefully, about to undergo a process of forensic and deep reform. Tim Davie, when he was appointed director general of the BBC, which was going through similar but maybe not as difficult a challenge, said "Trust in our impartiality is not a nice to have, it is the very essence of who we are. It is the bedrock of why people come to us." Equally it is a bedrock of why people repeatedly come to RTÉ over and again to be able to trust that what they are hearing and seeing is impartially delivered. In response to the question about the register, Mr. Lynch said that RTÉ would consider this. I believe it is absolutely essential that RTÉ goes way beyond considering this and commits to putting such a register in place. It is not appropriate that individuals who have extraordinary power to shape public opinion, much more so than anybody sitting around this table, would have side deals going on. They may be perfectly legitimate from a legal perspective but from an impartiality perspective they are not acceptable. If such deals are ongoing and people are being paid handsome amounts of money above and beyond what they are being paid through their salary, the public needs to be aware of that in order to trust. I will ask that question again. Will RTÉ establish such a register?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
First I must say that it is not a case that the staff in RTÉ can just enter into commercial agreements at all. Anything would have to be approved to begin with. The register seems like a perfectly good idea, but there is an incoming director general. Having spoken to him this week, his plan for corporate governance is that there would be deep reform.
We know that in this instance and in this actual event corporate governance has failed completely. I do not believe it is systemic within the organisation in terms of the sitting executive board. It is not systemic. I say this in terms of the controls that are in place and that are run. It is just a point I have to make that there are controls in place. In this particular instance they were overridden.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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When auditors are doing an audit they will perhaps contact the chief financial officer or a department head if they come across a particular matter about which they are somewhat confused or mystified, in an attempt - one would think - to resolve it before it was escalated to anybody higher. Did Deloitte, prior to 17 March, when the audit chair was alerted, contact Mr. Collins or anybody in his department, or any department head, in an effort to find out what exactly was going on with these payments, before it was escalated to the head of audit?
Mr. Richard Collins:
Yes it did; it asked me for an explanation of these invoices. I spoke to the director general and I got an explanation from her. I relayed that back to Deloitte. Deloitte was not happy with that explanation. Deloitte then spoke directly with the director general. I understand it was not happy with the explanation she provided, and at that stage it referred the matter up to the audit and risk committee.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I have asked this next question of all of the people appearing before us today. Does Mr. Lynch think that the public find it exceptionally difficult, if not impossible to believe, that an arrangement could be put in place with Ryan Tubridy, which was a highly unusual arrangement and one that went above and beyond normal corporate practices within RTÉ, and that only one person in the whole organisation was aware of it and only one person dictated that it would occur, and that this person cannot appear before the committee now, as Deputy Griffin has pointed out? This is also despite that same person having sought - as she has pointed out in her own statement - substantial and ongoing advice from a legal team within RTÉ and from the financial management team within RTÉ. Does Mr. Lynch accept that the public would find exceptionally difficult the element of Mr. Lynch's statement last night that ultimately the responsibility for this, and the knowledge around this particular arrangement rests with one individual, and only one individual?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Nobody is questioning that.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
-----whatever one thinks about it. Where this entire story changed was the decision to underwrite that agreement. The consequence of that meant that the figures that were published were inaccurate. To be completely clear about it, from my own perspective, I did not know anything about these payments or how they were made. I did not know that they would impact the top ten earnings. I had very little knowledge, just to be completely clear about it.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Collins's explanation, such as it is, for the €120,000 extra for Ryan Tubridy is that it was a "loyalty bonus". That was the phrase that was used. Was Mr. Collins involved in devising this bonus? Does he know, during the process of putting it in place, if Ryan Tubridy was actually aware that this was ongoing?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lynch mentioned earlier in response to Senator Cassells that he was not aware of how the Tubridy pay deal was operationalised. What does Mr. Lynch mean by that?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
What I mean was, how it was operationalised from a commercial perspective. I would have had no knowledge of the fact that it was paid from the barter account. I would have had no knowledge that it was cost neutral. Again, in terms of corporate governance and an integrated executive working a functional way, I would say that is an issue.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Why did Ms Ní Raghallaigh not think it appropriate to inform the public, when she had an opportunity on television last week, that she had sought the resignation of Dee Forbes?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
To clarify, I sought her resignation, it was not forthcoming, and then we went into a disciplinary process.
The legal advice around that was that we could not say she was suspended because of labour laws. However, we took the decision to take that on board and make it public that she had been suspended because the damage being done to the organisation outweighed whatever the risk was of saying that publicly. That is what happened.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. If I recall correctly, in one of Ms Anne O'Leary's responses to Senator Warfield, she stated - correct me if I am wrong - that she had concerns about the contracts that had been undertaken with Noel Kelly's clients and that RTÉ is looking to do a further investigation. Did I mishear her?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What are those concerns?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
I was uncomfortable with the idea that something would be put down as "consultancy", with no definition of what that was. It did not seem like an ordinary transaction to me so I suggested to our committee that we put that on the agenda of our next meeting and see if an internal audit could be done. If the audit finds that it is perfectly okay we can let the matter lie. If it throws up further concerns, I would get either Grant Thornton or Arthur Cox to take a look at it.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps for Mr.Lynch, the tripartite agreement, as it is now being described, was not signed by anyone at all, as far as I can gather from looking at the Grant Thornton audit report, until after the first payment was made. It was only signed by NKM in April 2023 after Grant Thornton was called in and as far as I can determine it was never signed by anyone at all in RTÉ. Is that the case and, if so, why?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
My expectation was when I went through the paperwork that the tripartite agreement would refer to €75,000 within it. In fact, it did not because as I understand it - it does not relate to the guarantee - as regards the sequencing of events, in 2020 we had the Covid-19 pandemic. The events did not happen until 2022. Everything was getting pushed around and this agreement was between the commercial partner, NK Management and RTÉ.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I have two final questions and then I will finish.
To be clear, I spoke earlier about Deloitte's initial concerns about the arrangement. When did Deloitte come to Mr. Collins to express its concerns? Does he recall the approximate date?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Anne O'Leary expand a little on her ongoing concerns about the NKM arrangements and the contracts negotiated. What are the concerns and how does she intend to-----?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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She has no concerns about or I suppose she does not have sufficient knowledge of them yet to be able to determine-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here.
I find some of the answers bizarre to be frank. The clear agenda for today is the secret payments, how they came about, how they were covered up and how this committee and the Government were deceived with regard to those payments. I am mindful of the fact that in the past three years this committee has done a huge amount of work on funding the future of good public broadcasting. Mr. Lynch has been before the committee on numerous occasions and every time the main focus of RTÉ's discussion, argument and presentation was the financial constraints of RTÉ. It is just really shocking. I am still really struggling, after everything I have heard over the last three hours, to come to terms with it.
I will begin with Mr. Lynch. Who negotiated Patrick Kielty's new contract for "The Late Late Show"?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Can anyone present from the executive enlighten us about that contract and that deal?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Has the board sight of the make-up of that deal?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Who of the executive board negotiated the deal with Mr. Kielty?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Collins made the board or just the chair of the board aware of what the deal is?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is the chair satisfied with the deal?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It was touched on earlier. When will that deal be made public? It is in the public interest for the future of "The Late Late Show" as an entity to know what that deal comprises of. When will it be made public? Mr. Lynch is the interim deputy director general.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure RTÉ can have a conversation with the other party tomorrow. How soon can RTÉ make this committee and the public aware of what that deal comprises of? I heard Mr. Kielty's response yesterday. He is not here to answer, but it was far from satisfactory. I am asking the witnesses as the people who negotiated that deal, when will they make this committee aware, assuming that the other party is agreeable, which they should be.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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How soon will it meet?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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All going well, there is no reason this committee cannot be fully informed about this as early as Friday evening or Monday morning at the latest. Is that a fair assumption?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We are agreeing to that, assuming that everyone goes along with it. If someone is not in agreement, I ask RTÉ to inform the committee of that.
I find it extraordinary - perhaps there is more to go on this - that nobody from the executive present, and we have not had the opportunity to go through each of them, can answer the straightforward question of how many of RTÉ's talent base are represented by NK Management. I am not a member of the executive or the board. From what I have heard it is far more than four or five people. My biggest concern is that the right hand of the executive does not seem to know what the left hand is doing. Does Mr. Coveney have any idea as to how many of the talent base in RTÉ are represented by NK Management?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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No. I am asking broadly in RTÉ. Surely someone knows how many of the stars are negotiated on behalf of by NKM.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Coveney is head of strategy. Surely he should know or have an idea about it. Surely it comes up at executive meetings. He is obviously a big player within RTÉ. Perhaps he cannot answer the question. If he cannot that is fine.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does the CFO know?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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No, I want to go much broader than that.
I call Ms Geraldine O'Leary.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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But we do not know. Mr. Lynch does not know either.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In its entirety.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. When can we be furnished with that detail? This is important. Mr. Kelly is a key player in all this and we have not got to this yet. How soon can the witnesses get us that information?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will get to you. I will give you that chance at the end.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Turning to Ms Ní Raghallaigh, what level of delegation does the board give to the director general in relation to the negotiation and contracts for someone like Mr. Kielty, who is coming in? Was any level of reporting required by the board, for example, concerning this new and upcoming contract?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What part does the board play? What kind of conversation takes place or how often does this happen?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to be specific. Let us move forward and we are talking about the new presenter of "The Late Late Show".
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What level of input would the board have had in respect of being aware of or sending the executive off to negotiate that deal and then to come back and report? As was said, they are coming back and this proposal is to be approved on Friday by Ms Ní Raghallaigh's board. What input does the board have in these kinds of situations? Does it give the executives any requirements, set timeframes or limitations on what can be achieved or how far a deal can go?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. In other words, the executives can do what they like and go as far as they like with negotiations or a deal, and then go back with the proposal to the board and it must either agree or disagree.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Your first experience of that will be on Friday, when this new deal is to come back to the board.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is fair enough. I turn to Mr. Shortt next, because he has not had an opportunity to be a part of this conversation. I am very glad to see him here today. How long have you been on the board of RTÉ?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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You are on the board as-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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You have been there since 2018. How would you describe the board's relationship with the executive?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is it an open one? Is there a good relationship? Are there many conversations about how things are operating within RTÉ?
Mr. Robert Shortt:
Yes. The members of the executive will present before the board on different issues as they arise in the normal course of business. We have more detailed engagement on the audit and risk committee, of which I am a member, with the chief financial officer, Mr. Richard Collins. Yes, the operation and interaction between the executive and board is a working relationship and is a functioning working relationship.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Can I ask-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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If there was good interaction and openness and transparency, how could something like this have gone on for years without the board being aware?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What is your explanation for that?
Mr. Robert Shortt:
Well, my explanation of it is that the first time this surfaced as a point of inquiry was when the auditors uncovered two transactions about which they had questions. They came to Anne O'Leary, as the chair of the audit and risk committee, and alerted her to this. They came to the scheduled meeting of the audit and risk committee, where they briefed us in more detail about the issue. We took the actions that we did, which the committee knows about now. From that narrow perspective in terms of what when on, if that is what the Cathaoirleach is referring to, in respect of these two transactions and everything that has arisen from them, the functioning of the board was, dare I say it, quite efficient in pushing this on to its conclusion, which was the publication of the report on 16 December to us in the audit and risk committee. We gave it to the full board, with recommendations, for its meeting on the following Monday and here we are a week later. From that narrow perspective, if the Cathaoirleach is talking about something going on that dates back years, could she be a little bit more specific? Are the wider issues that have been raised in the course of today's questioning being referred to? Are we talking about everything that has flown and emerged from these two transactions, which was the beginning of all of this? If it is just about these two transactions, then I am very satisfied and I will stand over the actions that we took.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the broader perspective on all this.
Mr. Robert Shortt:
If the Cathaoirleach is talking about cultural issues, I must agree with what the chair said earlier in relating the conversation she had with Kevin Bakhurst, the incoming director general. This is a personal view, but I know it would be the view of many members of staff as well. People feel uncomfortable with very high salaries going to presenters. People are very aware, and again this is my view, that our industry is changing at lightning speed. RTÉ has gone from being an organisation where perhaps two thirds of the revenue was commercial and one third came from the licence fee to the situation now where less than half of our income comes from commercial sources. Most of it, the majority of our funding, comes from the licence fee.
I think this has implications. We are becoming more of a public service broadcaster. We are still operating under an Act where we are dually funded, but the industry that underpins that Act has left that framework under which we must operate almost obsolete. It is incumbent on us to consider that as the industry we are working in changes, we must rethink that relationship. We must consider whether, as we become more of a public service-funded broadcaster, the kinds of commercial relationships that were part of the old model need to be looked at again. Quite what the bar is is another question. Somebody - I think it might have been Senator Malcolm Byrne - asked whether anyone should be paid more than the Taoiseach. These are exactly the types of questions we must engage with and the types of questions which, no doubt, will come up as part of this cultural review. I know that many staff are welcoming this cultural and governance review and they expect to make a full input into it. I will be bringing their views to board level as well as that review gets under way.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Mr. Lynch wanted to say something concerning my questions.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Earlier, the Cathaoirleach brought up one point around clarifications around the payments. We are here today and very happy to answer any question that has not been answered. Is there a question around the payments, therefore, that we can clarify or give the committee more information on?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will do that in the wrap-up. How about that?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have many more questions but I am also conscious that I have to let in my other colleagues as well. My clerk has reminded me to ask the witnesses if they need a break or if they are they happy to keep going. Is everyone happy to keep going?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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My colleagues who remain and who have questions are not members of this committee. I will not, therefore, be able to give them all ten minutes. I will extend the time to three or possibly five minutes each.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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The issue of self-employment and bogus self-employment is contentious across Ireland, including in RTÉ. How much, if anything, has RTÉ settled with Revenue since 2020 over bogus self-employment?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Does Mr. Collins, the chief financial officer-----
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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RTÉ paid Revenue €1.2 million for bogus self-employment. Mr. Lynch spoke about the scope exercise. What is the contingent liability on that? Obviously, there are a lot of cases involving RTÉ at the moment.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Is it more or less than €1.2 million?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Mr. Collins does not think he is at liberty to tell the Oireachtas committee how much is at stake.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Deputy Griffin asked whether anybody knew of the situation before 16 March, and all of the witnesses said nobody did. In response to Deputy Cannon, reference was made to when Deloitte came to RTÉ in early March. Does Mr. Collins want to elaborate?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Has the Patrick Kielty deal been fully signed off on? Is it legally binding on the organisation?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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It is not legally binding as it stands.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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It is or it is not.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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If it goes wrong, RTÉ might be sued on the back of it. Would it not be beneficial to know? Can Mr. Lynch, as acting director general, tell us whether the agreement is legally binding?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Mr. Lynch is not sure whether it has been signed by RTÉ.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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We will leave it there. The witnesses cannot tell us how much it is for until Mr. Kielty gives his permission.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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If the Irish Independenthad not gotten its hands on it last week would RTÉ be asking Ryan Tubridy if it was okay to divulge it?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Would the public, some of whom pay a licence fee, know? Would the Oireachtas know about the Ryan Tubridy thing if the Irish Independenthad not gotten its hands on it? RTÉ has said it will tell us about the Patrick Kielty deal if and when he agrees. Would we know about the Ryan Tubridy overpayments if the story had not been leaked somewhere or if theIrish Independenthad not gotten its hands on it?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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So it was fortuitous that the Irish Independentwas asking questions around the same time.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Okay. I thank Ms O'Leary. Is everything RTÉ broadcasts public service broadcasting or just some of it?
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Okay. RTÉ does not differentiate between commercial and public service.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Everything is public service, from "Dancing with the Stars" right through to reruns of "Dynasty" or something like that.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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It is all public service. People are annoyed about this. I do not want to personalise this; Ryan Tubridy is entitled to earn as much as he can. He is obviously a talented individual. However, his contract was being negotiated at the same time as RTÉ was closing Lyric in Limerick to save money. How does RTÉ determine the worth of a presenter? In Britain it is clear that if an organisation wants to hold onto somebody it has to pay them more than a commercial rival would. It is very clear that in Ireland the commercial rivals are not going to pay anything like the sums RTÉ is paying people. If they leave RTÉ for money, they have to go to North America - depending on their language skills they can go wherever they want, but generally if they leave RTÉ for money they go to North America or the United Kingdom. If they go there, they are not competing with RTÉ. It is a bit like League of Ireland footballers. Those who are like Roy Keane move onto Manchester United or stay with Cobh Ramblers - there is a difference in what they are paid. How on earth can RTÉ determine the worth of somebody?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
On Mr. Collins's point earlier, the entire media industry is shifting. Over time, fees will shift with that. The industry is more internationalised now and so on. In terms of this market, it has changed significantly in the past five or six years with regard to fee levels and so on. Deputy McGrath spoke about salaries that were paid ten years ago. Over this period of time, in terms of top talent, that has come down by about 35%.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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RTÉ is still paying 100% more to the most talented people. I am not saying they could not earn more in Britain. I can think of a couple of current affairs presenters who had very successful careers in Britain, and I am sure many of the top ten could go there tomorrow and perhaps earn a lot more money.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Either way, it is not competition for RTÉ if they go there. Their slot just gets filled by somebody else. How does RTÉ justify paying a lot more to these people than any commercial rival in Ireland can pay?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
To the Deputy's point, in a way, it depends on the particular individual and whether they are able to compete in an international marketplace. That is one of the key things. In terms of being a public service broadcaster, there is a mix of considerations. We have some brilliant broadcasters in RTÉ who add significant public value in terms of the quality of their journalism and so on. There is a lens through which we look at things.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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On Deputy McNamara's questioning, I am a little confused. Could I get clarification on the timeline of when Deloitte contacted RTÉ? Was Mr. Collins contacted before Ms O'Leary-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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-----about the problem?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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When I asked whether anyone knew before St. Patrick's day, he said, "No". Mr. Collins is before an Oireachtas committee.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Collins did know before 16 March.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Collins have any contact with Mr. Tubridy between then and 16 March about the issue?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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None whatsoever. What about with his agent or anybody connected to him?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did anybody from RTÉ or Mr. Collins's office have contact with him before 16 March?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Not that he is aware of.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Could anybody else answer that? At best, we were misled earlier.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It was flagged before that. The chief financial officer just told me it was flagged before that. Earlier, Ms O'Leary said she was contacted on 17 March. Now Mr. Collins has said-----
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The truth is important.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Did the director general contact Mr. Tubridy before 16 March?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We may never know that.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. What we have seen over the past week is the worst and best of RTÉ. We have seen the worst in terms of the revelations and, quite frankly, the way they have been handled. We have seen the best of RTÉ in the way in which its journalists have held it to account in the way they do us. That is an important point to get on the record. The people I have spoken to in RTÉ are absolutely disgusted, and I do not want to layer that on. They are disappointed, furious and angry. The people I have spoken to today are angry with the statement from Mr. Lynch yesterday. The Taoiseach made it very clear in the Dáil that the Government does not believe him.
I think his exact words were: "We do not believe it is credible that the former director general, Dee Forbes, was the only person with knowledge of the events." That is in direct response to Mr. Lynch's statement.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I will go through my preamble and then I am happy to hear a response. That is pretty serious. If RTÉ on the one hand is trying to fight for survival, it needs the Government on board for that. It needs the public on board. It is hard to know what RTÉ's strategy is, but it seems to me to be to give as little as it can until it has to. That is not going to wash. It is not washing with the public and it is not washing with the Government. It is damaging and it continues to damage the organisation and the staff Mr. Lynch works with and represents, and attempts to lead.
Here is one thing that I need Mr. Lynch to try to help me to understand. It is the issue about him placing everything on the fact that he did not know the commercial arrangement was underwritten, so therefore there is no culpability. The very fact that a commercial arrangement had to be put in place that was effectively paid for by RTÉ is an acceptance that money was being funnelled to an individual. Surely to God somebody had to say: "Why is that being done? Why are we doing a commercial arrangement? Why are we doing anything other than paying the individual?". He did a great deal. A lot of RTÉ's statements yesterday set out very clearly why it thought it had to pay the person. There was a legal contract, and then the side deal, the tripartite agreement. Surely to God it was clear that that was an exercise in funnelling money to the individual, ultimately allowing for a concealment. Why else would RTÉ do it? Why would RTÉ deviate to another methodology?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
Yes, I will explain that. The Taoiseach mentioned "events" specifically. What the statement said was what was published. What was it that impacted what was published? I will explain what that was. As I said before, the guarantee was a commercial decision which came with risk. It meant that when that risk was activated, it had an impact on the figures that were published. So in terms of Senator Dooley's follow-on question, which is around events, no one is sitting here and saying that any of this is good practice. Let me be absolutely clear about that.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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If Mr. Lynch could just reflect on it now from this vantage point, why does he think the commercial arrangement had to be put in place? What did he think was going on at the time?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
When I saw this in early January, when I was copying that email, my understanding at that point is that there were commercial partners who were interested in activating something with Ryan Tubridy. My assumption was that unless there was an agreement in place, he would not be paid.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Lynch not think it was an effort to conceal? Did it not occur to anybody? Why would they be going down a particular pathway with one individual?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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But for what purpose? This was not Renault or somebody coming to say: "We would like to latch on to this star for our benefit and we will talk to you about it." This was RTÉ actively looking for something that it was going to pay for. Not alone was RTÉ paying the company the money to funnel it to Mr. Tubridy, but it was also funding the organisation of the event. Surely to God somebody would say there is no benefit in that to RTÉ – zero; absolutely no benefit - and ask why it was doing it. Did that not occur to anyone, and obviously to the head of content as well? Surely there had to be questions there. I have some sympathy for Ms Geraldine O'Leary because quite frankly, she was asked to do something; she was asked to go hunting for somebody who was prepared to participate with RTÉ. I would like to hear from Renault because it seems to me – this has been part of the content of what is coming back – that it decided not to continue with it the following year and we were left on the hook and we never expected to be and that is why we underwrote it and yada yada. The whole thing was concocted. This was a straw hut that was built to funnel money to an individual and one can only conclude, at best, that it was about concealment. Somebody must come out and address the kernel of this, which is why this was put together in the first instance, and how can it not be construed as concealment – legal but concealed, based on the way RTÉ put its reporting together. Going through RTÉ's statements yesterday, it makes it clear that when it comes to putting the top ten list together, there are checks and balances in there, but the director of content sits on that. I do not know who else sits on it, but others do in consultation with the DG. They had to know there was a side deal, a tripartite deal.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
In terms of that - to answer that question, I have no doubt that there was a negotiation going on in the autumn of 2019. The negotiation was obviously not going that well or whatever, and then this idea was obviously generated that there would be some brand extensions and there would be events. My understanding, when I saw it in January, was that these would be events that would be paid for by a sponsor, so it would be a legitimate agreement. We all know it is a lawful agreement. If we activate them, Ryan Tubridy would be paid. The idea of that commercial agreement was not about concealing payments to Ryan Tubridy. The concealed payments only occurred when the guarantee was activated.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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But the first iteration of it activated a payment from RTÉ because, at least according to my reading of it, it was cost-neutral-----
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I will move on very quickly. Mr. Lynch said that the contract was concluded with Mr. Tubridy in May, and that he now has a new contract and it is suspended. Somebody said he was in contract or out of contract. Could Mr. Lynch just clarify - he is still being paid anyway – what the situation is vis-à-vishis contract?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will put a question very briefly to Ms Ní Raghallaigh. She was with the Minister some day last week. Did she share with her at that stage that she had sought the resignation of the DG?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses here. We are all disappointed, but at least we live in a country where people are asked to come in. Seven people have come in and they have faced us. We have a job to do and they understand that. I can see right around this room, whether it is from this side or that side, that there are very disappointed faces. A lot of the public had great faith in RTÉ. We live in very challenging times media-wise. I came from Shannonside Northern Sound, and so many of my colleagues have moved down to RTÉ – an extraordinary amount from that station. I also did work many years ago for a programme on TG4. I was not paid extraordinary money. I was paid about €200 a month for the work I did, but that is beside the point.
Ms Ní Raghallaigh has said here that she did not inform the Minister that she had asked the DG to step down. Is that correct?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister was not told directly that Ms Ní Raghallaigh had asked Dee Forbes to step down.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to correct something that was said earlier, but I am not making a big issue of it. It was said that the agent, NKM, has four or five RTÉ staff, but if we look at the website, I estimate that there are 20 people from RTÉ on the books there. I think Ms Ní Raghallaigh should know that. It is a big number of people. I am not making a big issue of it.
I will move on. A former Minister for communications, Dermot Ahern, who was Minister in 2002, and the then Taoiseach met with Bob Collins and Cathal Goan, who was managing director of television at the time. The purpose of that meeting was to discuss the debt of €20 million and they were seeking a significant increase in the licence fee.
The Government granted quite a lot of the increase that was sought, and it was very unpopular. Let me quote directly from an article Mr. Ahern wrote last Monday in a national daily newspaper, the Irish Daily Mail:
As a result of that meeting, it was agreed in principle that - in exchange for a major restructuring of how RTÉ did its business, from a financial, governance, and operational point of view - the Government would consider a substantial increase in the licence fee, which was €107 at the time. Over the subsequent months, officials in my department, aided by outside experts, conducted a forensic examination of the overall situation in RTÉ, particularly from a financial point of view.
The results of this deep trawl threw up some astounding revelations.
For instance, we learned that RTÉ had actually been paying a full salary to 11 employees which it didn't realise were still on its payroll, [This is the killer line for RTÉ.] despite them having left RTÉ years earlier.
The running of RTÉ at that time is described as "chaotic" by the then Minister. Can the officials inform me today whether there are still people on the payroll who are not in RTÉ?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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How could the situation not be noticed? I accept we are going back to 2002 and that some of the delegates were not in the organisation. Does Mr. Lynch not believe it is extraordinary?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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In the article, the former Minister describes the running of RTÉ at the time in question as shambolic. My point is that, 21 years on, it is very disappointing to see the shambolic exercises that are going on. That is why so many of us are disappointed. RTÉ does some fabulous work.
I presume there is a big difference between a contractor and an employee. Obviously, a contractor is not guaranteed work for life at the station and contractors are not given pension rights. They obviously have sick leave. Would there be a big difference in the way contracts are drawn up for contractors and the way they are drawn up for employees?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Does RTÉ have a policy on payment for individuals who work in the station but do work outside RTÉ?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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What is that policy?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other benefits? Somebody mentioned that some people may be getting cars. Are there any other benefits or arrangements in place that the delegates know of? At this stage, it would be better for everybody, in the eyes of the public, if we were all transparent. People are very forgiving if the truth is told. I find that in my own political life. Sometimes people criticise me for saying what I think but people like you to say it as it is. I ask the seven delegates straight out whether they are aware of any more deals, such as car arrangements, for people within RTÉ?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
I am aware of a number of presenters who have arrangements with car brands. They are ambassadors for those brands. Therefore, I am assuming it does not come through RTÉ but through their agents or directly. I know that certain people on air have cars and are ambassadors for car brands.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ had a fantastic product in "The Late Late Toy Show". The country as a whole and people outside the country thought it was fantastic. Last year, it was decided to run "Toy Show The Musical", but some people in the arts did not think it was fair because obviously they were all putting on their own shows. I recall that the musical was a fiasco at the time. RTÉ was advertising it morning, noon and night to get rid of the tickets. Whose decision was it to run such a show?
Mr. Rory Coveney:
It came through the executive board. I was responsible for the project in one sense. It was signed off by the board; it was signed off by the audit and risk committee. It was not successful commercially. It was a very good show. We are not doing it this year. We are reviewing how we might bring it back in the future. That is where it is at.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Was there much money lost on the whole process?
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Would RTÉ consider publishing the list of names of people from RTÉ who have cars, again in the interest of transparency? People might have no issue with this at all but they should be told straight out. The people who pay the licence fee should be told.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Particularly if they are ambassadors. Generally, ambassadors are known to be ambassadors, so it would be important.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes that slot.
Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I really appreciate the Cathaoirleach letting me in. I have more questions but I do know the Cathaoirleach is trying to finish up.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Could I interject for one second? Could the executive furnish this committee with the figures on "Toy Show The Musical"?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, Mr. Coveney, but I do not really think that stacks up at this moment in time.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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There should be no difficulty in furnishing the Oireachtas committee with what it cost RTÉ to run the show.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Mr. Lynch is taking notes because there have been many requests by various members of the committee. If not, I am sure the clerk will assist him in respect of furnishing the details. The issue of "Toy Show The Musical" is critical. It has been very much in the public domain and there are questions to be answered. Perhaps Mr. Lynch can give us the information on it.
I now come to Deputy Boyd Barrett. The floor is his and he has three minutes or so. I am not doing very well with these extras-----
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Four hours waiting and I get three minutes.
There is a lot at stake. To me, public service broadcasting is critical. I do not want to see a world where Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk and for-profit companies are the only ones who provide us with news or broadcasting, but what has happened here has put the credibility of public service broadcasting seriously at risk. Therefore, we have to protect public service broadcasting. People are furious. The public can go to jail if they do not pay for their TV licences. As Mr. Lynch and others have said, the vast majority of the workforce are paid fractions of what is paid to the top presenters and were forced to accept very tough sacrifices, pay cuts, pay freezes and bogus self-employment. I have heard some shocking stories about people not having remote controls in the TV room and people using ironing boards at home as desks when working from home, because the money was not available for desks, and then we have this. It is pretty shocking stuff.
If I understand what the delegation has said correctly, when it was decided that everybody was to take a 15% cut and all the cuts were imposed, only one person, represented by Mr. Noel Kelly, said he was not taking a 15% cut. Am I right? I am trying to understand how the exception we are hearing about even came into play when everybody else was told they had to take a 15% cut and apparently did. Do I understand that correctly?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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So, one presenter or their agent was not willing to take the pain. It has been described as a failure of corporate governance. It most certainly was that, but would any reasonable person looking on not say it was a bit more than that? I am trying to be fair but this really looks like orchestrated, organised deceit and concealment by somebody. When everybody else was taking cuts, the people who orchestrated the arrangement in question decided to call it consultancy in the books because, if I understand Mr. Lynch's point correctly, confidentiality was important. That is deliberate concealment.
It is a plot, for want of a better word, to conceal this from the public, the Oireachtas and the staff in RTÉ because the people who concocted this would have known there would have been murder. Also, if I understand it correctly, it could not even have got past legal. If legal had known this deal had been concocted, it would have said "No way". Is that a correct characterisation of what we are dealing with?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
On the payments and invoices, I do not want to attribute motivation but if you look at the events as outlined in the document, you can see that obviously - now, it was a lawful agreement that was entered into - what happened afterwards meant that the payments were not going to be declared in the way they should have been.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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You can draw no other inference from that other than it was being done deliberately because if it had not been done deliberately, there would have been uproar and legal would have challenged that.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I want to get a bit more forensic detail. I think this question has been answered but I want to get it clear in my head. Renault was never going to pay anything, was it? Even without invoking the guarantee, RTÉ was always going to pay. Is that not correct? I want to understand that part of it.
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
I am the person who is responsible for that relationship. The deal was constructed without any consultation with me or the client. I was advised that this element had been included in the deal and I went to speak to Renault. It has been said a couple of times that Renault did not renew it but I only ever spoke to Renault about year 1, which was 2020. I never went back to it in 2021 or 2022. The conversation with Renault was on events in 2020, which, because of Covid, did not happen until 2022. Renault was not consulted when the deal was being put together for Ryan Tubridy; I went to Renault after the deal had been done.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What I mean is that the public was always going to pay because it had to be cost neutral. There was never any question that anybody other than the public was going to pay for the secret payments to Ryan Tubridy. Is that not correct?
Ms Geraldine O'Leary:
The phrase "cost neutral" was said to me by the client, which was coming to the end of year 2 of a three-year contract. The client said to me that he would be more than happy to do events with the presenter but that it would have to be cost neutral to Renault. That is what he said.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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In other words, RTÉ, that is, the public, was always going to pay. Whatever about who knew-----
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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-----but somehow the people who concocted this deal knew that the public was always going to pay but they were going to conceal that fact. There has been some questioning of whether it is only the director general and maybe the former CFO who knew. People are asking if it is credible that nobody here knew, and that is a very reasonable question. The witnesses' answer seems to be that the witnesses were following orders and were in silos but they did not understand what was going on. That is not great and does not reflect well on the functioning of the executive. If we accept what the witnesses have said, then we have to find out from the people who concocted this deal what their motivation was. The public are owed that explanation because we are being told today that the people here were not in on the concoction of this deal. Do the public have a right to know who concocted this deal and why, and why they sought to conceal it?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not like the expression "the talent". Who are "the talent" when this term is being used? One of the backdrops to this is there are people, including crew members, camera people, people who make stages, administration people and journalists who are on a fraction of the wages of the top people, who, if I understand the use of this term correctly, are somehow defined as "not the talent". There is the vast majority of the 1,800 workers who benefited in no way, who were deceived and who are apparently "not talent" and then there are people who deserved to get eight, nine and ten times what the others get. Do the witnesses agree that there is a problem with those sorts of formulations of "the talent" and that there is a problem with these independent contractors, full stop? You have staff who are paid in a transparent way and then you have these independent contractors, who are supposedly "the talent", negotiating deals for multiples of what everybody else is earning. Is that level of inequality in the payment of people who in reality work for RTÉ acceptable? Does it not have to end? Is it not, in and of itself, corrosive of the cohesion and integrity of RTÉ?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I completely agree with the Deputy on his point about "talent" and "not talent". RTÉ is dependent on the 1,800 people who go in there every single day and do an incredibly good job because they really believe in public service media. To the Deputy's point on that trust with the public and to one of his earlier points, how we, as the executive board, will be held to account by RTÉ in terms of the quality of journalism that will be applied anywhere else is so important. The phrase "top talent" is a terrible one so I would agree with the Deputy.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank Mr. Lynch. We think and a lot of the staff think that caps on the salaries of this so-called "top talent" need to be introduced because it is just not fair on the people.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The floor is yours, Deputy Crowe.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thought I was going to be the final speaker but I am happy to get an opportunity. I congratulate the Cathaoirleach on how she has hosted the meeting and how the clerks to the committee have organised all of this at short notice. It would have been helpful to have Renault and Ryan Tubridy here. That would have helped to paint a more full picture.
I have a few questions that I will be nice and quick with. I do not have many statements to make; I more have questions to ask and I hope the witnesses can answer them. Where is Ryan Tubridy? He is not here. Many of the witnesses' former RTÉ colleagues have gone into media consultancy. Some of us have been to them and we have been told how to best manage ourselves as politicians if a crisis is unfolding. The one thing we have always been told is you should not go into hiding and you should come out front-footed and explain yourself. I would like to know where Ryan is. I know he has given some commentary to the media but RTÉ has told us that for editorial reasons, he is not on air. Who made that editorial decision? Is it the production team of his radio show or is it the witnesses?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Lynch made that editorial decision. Is this the first time Mr. Lynch has made an editorial decision in his role?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There is a bit of a chasm on air at the moment because in most Irish households Ryan is the messiah and not the pariah. What has to happen for him to go back on air? What will make Mr. Lynch change his editorial decision? People are wondering where Ryan Tubridy is and when we will hear his voice on the airwaves.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What is the editorial reason? Could Mr. Lynch headline that for us?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Lynch saying that he has done something wrong?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There are two opposing briefings out there today. One is that he is saying he is still in a contract and he has ceased his television work but the radio work continues. RTÉ's, I think, and I have been listening to the witnesses for the past few hours, is that it is now in a state of negotiating something and it is very much in a state of flux. What is the truth? Those two briefings are opposing.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if others had heard of the remuneration committee as an entity but I certainly had not until this afternoon. Who is on that? If they have a rubber-stamping role in terms of Patrick Kielty's contract, did they have any rubber-stamping role in the €75,000 top-up?
Ms Anne O'Leary:
I will take that because Ms Ní Raghallaigh has not been the chair that long. The new remuneration committee comprises me, the DG, the chair and Connor Murphy. The previous committee comprised just the previous chair, the previous DG and me, and we never discussed talent in it at all. We met on very few occasions and it was always just to discuss the remuneration of the executives.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Does RTÉ's remuneration committee meet only for the big guns, "the top talent", a term, I agree with Deputy Boyd Barrett, that is very insulting? It implies that untalented people exist in the organisation, which is rather unfair. Does the committee meet only to examine the remuneration of the top guns, the top talent or did it meet in 2019, for example, when the Lyric FM staff were out on the street in Limerick, with their jobs on the line and the place about to close and being told there was no money for the station? Did the remuneration committee meet in that period or does it focus just on the top talent?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I wish Patrick Kielty well. He is stepping into a massive role. It is more than presenting a show. There is a certain leadership quality to this. It is the face of RTÉ. How early on was he made aware not only that he will be in the spotlight on Friday nights but that there is a big banana skin there as well? How early was he told of that?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is an unusual work environment. There are many people on contracts and sketchy enough contracts that would not be that nice to be on, and then there are other people who are contractors and they are paid handsome fees. Are there any performance-related bonus payments within the organisation, and would Dee Forbes or any of the executive have been in receipt of those in recent years?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I also want to ask about the Deloitte audit. I have been audited as an elected Member. I think 15 Members every year get randomly selected and audited. An audit, as I understand it, although I am not an accountant, relates to a single financial transacting year. The Deloitte audit is very much focused on year beginning to year end. Has anyone said, "Maybe we now need as an organisation to go back a little historically and look at whether anything like this has happened in the past two, three, four or five years"? Is RTÉ prepared to do that?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
As I said, the published accounts were correct in what they recorded as to what was paid to Mr. Tubridy, and Deloitte audits the published accounts. Therefore, what we are saying here regarding this fiasco is that the figures that were released in terms of the ten top-paid individuals in RTÉ is where the understatements are.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine and very well explained but the audit is a snapshot in time. The people who will face their licence renewals very soon and the people who are concerned about this whole debacle are probably wondering if this is a cultural thing and if it has happened in other years. The next time representatives of RTÉ are before our committee I would like them to have done a more historical analysis. The Deloitte audit is a snapshot. It relates to one trading year or financial year.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have just two final quick questions.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Final, final.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Well, if they are final, final, I have one big one to ask at the end. Our national media are great. Some of them are here and we rely on all of them for accuracy. Last December, they reported that RTÉ was set to pay €1.74 million to its employees vis-à-visgift vouchers. That was an admirable measure - and I congratulate RTÉ - to mitigate the huge cost-of-living pressures its workers and their families were facing. A lot of companies did something similar. However, it does beg a question now, given that we have discovered only in the past week that RTÉ has this account that can reward top talent. Some of those vouchers were worth €1,000. They were pretty large vouchers. Was that a catch-all pick-up to all of RTÉ's employees and contractors or did it look at those who were lowest paid? I would like to think, as someone who pays his licence and someone who represents the public, that this public purse money was spent at the right level. Were some of RTÉ's top stars getting that? Was it a backhand way of getting top-up payments to certain people?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I want to conclude by thanking the witnesses. They might just tell me one thing at the end. I do not know if it is fair to name names, but Ciarán Mullooly in the past few days on his Twitter feed has been an outstanding representative. I think he speaks for so many of RTÉ's current and former employees. He is an outstanding figure in RTÉ. What would the witnesses say to the likes of him and so many more who have had the courage to speak out in recent days?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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This is me asking; I was not asked to put that question.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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This is a very regionalised issue but the Lyric FM staff faced down management just four years ago and they were told, "There is no money. Sorry. We have to shut this down." I think RTÉ probably needs, separately to this debacle, to correspond with those staff and say, "In the fullness of time, we do owe you an apology also." There is plenty of money in this organisation.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I think that has become clear as well. I thank the witnesses for their time here today.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am near the end. I will invite Deputy Ó Murchú in for three minutes, and then Deputy Mattie McGrath has indicated he wants to ask one final question. Then we will wrap up.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise. I had to speak in the Dáil and I have suddenly discovered I am not as fit as I thought I was as I tried to run over and back.
An awful lot has been dealt with, or not dealt with. If we get down to the contract, there is huge disappointment out there, and the sense I get is that the only place there is more disappointment than among the public is among those people who are putting in and have put in hard hours, days and years in RTÉ and who feel they have been lied to and treated utterly disrespectfully. I am taking what Mr. Lynch said as an apology across the board. This is a systemic failure.
As regards the contract, am I correct in thinking it was a commercial arrangement that was entered into when negotiations were not going well, when attempts were made to reduce the moneys because everyone else was operating on the basis that they had to take a 15% cut?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Eventually, we will get to an answer but I do not think there is anyone out there in the wider world who does not believe that the only reason for this was to conceal the payments in respect the figures that are actually displayed to the public. I apologise if I have missed anything, but at this point in time RTÉ is saying Ryan Tubridy's contract is what way exactly?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is obviously a fair bit of commentary on this. There is a slight dispute on it, and I will just read this quote rather than paraphrasing it.
However, a source close to Mr Tubridy told the Irish Independent he does not believe that his contract is terminated and plans to contest that assertion by the national broadcaster.
"We reject the suggestion that the contract is terminated. The precedent is when contracts change like this and when one element, be it TV or radio goes, that the contract is amended to reflect the change, but it is not terminated.
"We will be making that very clear to RTÉ. We believe it's black and white," the source added.
I imagine this will go to lawyers and whatever else-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----but RTÉ is still saying categorically at this point that there is no contract.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is it. Would it be fair to say that his contract is not terminated at this point in time?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, I get that. The way it was said was, to a degree, that things were put in mothballs, the previous contract was terminated, and that a new contract was only being negotiated. Maybe there is a certain element of things not having been made clear enough, but my understanding is that at this present time, he is still in contract?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
That might be to do with the 2020-25 contract. There was an early termination letter, I believe, included as part of the contract, so while the contract was signed in July, it was actually dated April. It was part of that arrangement, I believe. That does not refer to Ryan Tubridy now, to be clear.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I do not need to add commentary on the fact that we would be a lot better if certain players were here, particularly Dee Forbes. I do not think anyone is particularly happy with how a situation arose where she is not here. I accept that she is under no compulsion, but she should do what is necessary and come before us here so we could at least have everything in the public domain. To use Mr. Lynch's own terms, it is particularly a systemic failure when, whether one person, two or a very small number of people can put something together and create this sort of financial vehicle, and then literally conceal it from everyone else.
Forget the rights and wrongs of it, in this day and age, it is the public broadcaster, and this is the bit that I do not understand. It is RTÉ. There is always an element of oversight. This was always going to happen some day. Outside of how annoyed people are, this is complete madness. We were always going to end up in this place. We all know the importance of RTÉ and public broadcasting in general, but there is a serious job that needs to be done by the witnesses and others to ensure that we maintain public broadcasting that people have an adequate amount of support for and confidence in. We are nowhere near there at the minute.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have two concluding questions, comments or observations. I will be brief because I appreciate everyone has been here since 1.30 p.m., and there have been some intense questions and answers going over and back. Deputy McGrath has one last question.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, and I apologise. I had to go in and speak in the Chamber twice. This question may have been asked when I was absent, I do not know. How can the board of RTÉ justify several of its own staff being on zero-hour contracts, while allowing the top salaries amounting to several hundreds of thousands of euro, not to mention the top-ups we are discussing here today? There is an obvious lack of faith in the board. Can it do something to placate all of RTÉ's junior staff, especially the ones who are on zero-hour contracts?
As a follow-up, Mr. Lynch just told the committee - and maybe this was answered in response to Senator Byrne's question - that Noel Kelly might have four or five clients working for RTÉ. Noel Kelly's website today shows at least a dozen well-known RTÉ faces. Can Mr. Lynch please let us have the true number of how many people Noel Kelly is negotiating pay deals for?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We kind of touched on that, but I am going to bring Deputy Michael McNamara in to ask his question as well, and then let the witnesses sum up responding to that. Is that okay?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Yes.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Mr. Lynch said it would be untenable to have Ryan Tubridy on air in the circumstances. He spoke repeatedly about a breach of corporate governance. He has used that term countless times. Ultimately, it is the board's responsibility to ensure that corporate governance is adhered to. In those circumstances, is the board's position tenable?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy McNamara. Who would Deputy McGrath like to answer his question?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Mr. Lynch, or one of them.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is Mr. Lynch for both.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I have looked at those who are on the website, but I do not know whether it is the top ten or 20. That is not an answer, really. On the zero-hour contracts, how does RTÉ stand over that? Is it going to continue with that? That was a question I asked as well.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Has RTÉ developed a policy so that will-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It has? For everybody?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Categorically?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McNamara's question is intended for Mr. Lynch as well.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Well, maybe Mr. Lynch. He answers to the board, so if he wants to answer the question first, he can go ahead.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
There has been an event here which is significant. What I would say is that there has been a significant breach of corporate governance. Within that, each of us individually needs to account for ourselves. Regarding my own knowledge of this, I have been quite clear that I did not know about the guarantee. I did not know about the-----
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I know Mr. Lynch did not, and the board did not either, individually, but collectively it is responsible for corporate governance. It is not there to run RTÉ, it is there to be responsible and make sure it can stand over it. It cannot, and that is why the board members are here. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have any doubt that the board's position is tenable? That is on behalf of the board, not her own personal position. On behalf of the board, does she think the board's position is tenable?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
I will say that when this came to light, and when the board learned of the discrepancy, it immediately took action. That took the form of getting Grant Thornton in to do the report that we published in full yesterday. That was then immediately put before the main board, and out of that came the actions. That all happened. Once the report was issued by Grant Thornton, which was on a Friday, by the following Thursday the board had the statement out.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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So Ms. Ó Raghallaigh thinks the board's position is tenable?
Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:
With the information we had, we acted immediately. We understood the seriousness of it. We took the steps, and we can stand over the process that we undertook in order to do that. That is our job, and we have fulfilled our job. We brought this to light. Within that, we see that even in our own process as the board, as opposed to the executive board, there are areas that we can tighten up on as well. I think that this has shaken everybody.
I am actually proud of what we did in bringing it to light. I think it has raised a lot of questions, and as I said earlier, we have to have public service broadcasting in a democracy. We have to get this right. We have to bring trust back to RTÉ, and that is our job as well, as a board. In order to do that, we have to make a lot of changes over the next while. That is what we have to do.
Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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The witnesses have been a long time in Gethsemane, and they have the Committee of Public Accounts tomorrow. I wish them the best of luck, and thank them very much.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes our questions. I would like to acknowledge the presence of Mr. Seamus Dooley representing the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, who was been here for most of our debate and has been before this committee on many occasions.
I would like to conclude by giving the final word to Mr. Robert Shortt. We saw Ms Emma O'Kelly here earlier on in the audience too, and I have listened very carefully. I hear hurt and pain, apart from the annoyance, and real disappointment on behalf of the staff. Am I right in saying that Mr. Shortt is representing the staff on the board here today? Could I ask him to give us his parting thought on where the staff is at right now in all of this debacle?
Mr. Robert Shortt:
I think where the staff is at, as the Chair has mentioned, is that there is an awful lot of frustration and anger on their behalf. There is also an expectation that this mess will get sorted out. The sorting out of the mess is a painful process, as we have seen here today. There are more questions to be asked. There is more information to be uncovered.
As a board, we are in the process of doing that. I ask the committee members here to give us their support in doing that. It is our full intention as a board to see this through for staff, for the public and for the Oireachtas..
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is a really good way to conclude. Mr. Shortt will know from hearing my colleagues in the room today that every one of us support and want to support and want to see RTÉ in very good stead into the future because we know how important our public broadcaster is to democracy, which is much bigger than RTÉ or any of us in this room. We know that RTÉ is key to all of that. I ask Mr. Shortt to relay our thoughts and, more importantly, our actions to the staff. We very much intend to act on what has been deciphered here today.
I appeal to the executive. There has been a lot of unanswered questions, and additional information has been requested by various committee members. The clerk to the committee has been taking notes frantically and furiously. As for what has been asked of the executive regarding additional information, I ask that there be no more concealment of information and that it be given fully, freely, and as quickly as possible to the committee in order that we can continue with our deliberations.
I am also very mindful of the fact that a few key people have been mentioned and discussed and not in any defamatory way, I hope. I hope everybody feels they were fairly treated today. I will have a discussion with my colleagues who have had to attend various other meetings and we will have a follow-up private meeting. I will recommend that the committee also invites NK Management because it is key to all of this. The committee will invite Mr. Ryan Tubridy. The invitation still stands to Mr. Jim Jennings and I ask that the point be reiterated that this committee stands ready to meet with him whenever he is in a position to do so. The committee will continue to extend our invitation to Ms Dee Forbes when she is fit to attend.
There is a lot of work to be done by this committee. It can help with and facilitate what RTÉ needs to do here and the committee will continue to do that but we need your forthrightness, we need the accountability and the transparency to be able to do our work.
That concludes the business of the joint committee. We will adjournsine dieand meet in private following the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts to which we will all listen attentively tomorrow. From there, the committee will decide what the next steps are. Go raibh míle maith ag gach duine.