Mr. David Hall:

No. I think it is all of the above. I did meet with representatives of Pepper recently. There was very good and positive engagement with them in relation to facilitating switching of various mortgages. I think it is something that is incumbent upon them, the Central Bank and the main lenders, especially Permanent TSB, in Mr. Byrne's and Ms Irwin's situation. I am not comfortable with the fact assurances were given by the Department of Finance and the Central Bank. As Deputies mentioned previously, we were all given the assurance that vulture funds provide the same protections. How does a central bank not understand where a vulture fund gets it money from? How does a central bank not understand, in making such statements to reassure politicians, journalists, commentators and vulture fund supporters, that they do not get the money from the same place? How, 12 months ago, did somebody not wake up and realise that there is a bit of a technical problem? They do not get the money from an ATM or a mainstream bank, they get it in a different market place that is going to be difficult. Vulture funds are under pressure. It is a rare admission that I will make, but I will always say it as it is. That it is because they are vulture funds, where they have chosen to get their money from and the casino they have chosen to gamble it in has attributed to the fact that they are paying money. It is incumbent on the Central Bank to give this committee and the Oireachtas the assurance that there is no gouging going on, because I believe it is going on. I do not believe for one minute that in Ms Irwin's set of circumstances, Mr. Byrne's set of circumstances and 10,000 other sets of circumstances, they should not be back with the mainstream lender. The Central Bank should be doing everything humanly possible to ensure that happens. To be fair to Pepper, there is an open door in relation to switching. I hope some more progress will be made in relation to that. It is a combination of all of the above. It is a very uncomfortable position to be in. A State-owned bank and a State regulator have been fast asleep. I mean no disrespect to the Deputy, I am aware of his views and I note that he is animated as I am about this, but it is remarkable that those questions get asked. It is remarkable that on occasions certain questions get asked. Mr. Byrne, Ms. Irwin and I, like many others, are sitting here saying that we are citizens. I have advocated and have helped mortgage holders for ten years. Mr. Byrne and Ms Irwin are looking to protect their families, themselves and their mental health to ensure they stay between the white lines, and they have done a great job. We have Oireachtas Members and others asking questions and not getting answers. It is a remarkable situation.