Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We are in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputy Holly Cairns and Senator Tom Clonan. Today's meeting will address public awareness around living with a disability. On behalf of the committee I welcome Dylan Nelson, Saoirse Smith, Padraic Moran, Niamh Kilcawley and Ciarán Delaney. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the same long-standing parliamentary practice. The constitutional requirement is that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. Before they make contributions, if they are online, they should confirm they are within those confines. I call on Mr. Nelson to make the opening remarks.

Mr. Dylan Nelson:

As members will be aware from various media reports, living as a young person is extremely difficult. Now I would like members to factor in a system that they as legislators are responsible for and which does not work for people with disabilities. There is no point in repairing it; the system is broken.

I will give a basic example. It is illegal to take a photograph on a bus, but it is not illegal to leave a disabled person sitting at a stop because there is a buggy in a wheelchair bay. I was trying to board a number 27 Dublin Bus the day before the "Prime Time" show aired. There was a buggy in the wheelchair bay. I asked the driver to ask the buggy to vacate this space. The driver told me it was first come, first served, with an expletive I will not repeat today in the middle. There were a few other expletives which I will leave out. I asked the driver why this was happening; he refused to comment, closed the door before I had finished speaking and drove off. I had to make contact with a friend of mine, Ciarán Delaney, who contacted Dublin Bus. I assure members it did not end well for Dublin Bus or the driver.

It has happened ten to 12 times in the past 12 months that buggies have been in the wheelchair bay and refused to move. Dublin Bus has confirmed recently the policy is there is a buggy bay for a buggy and a wheelchair bay for a wheelchair but this policy does not reach the drivers. They do not enforce it so it does not happen.

I have asked to meet with the CEO of Dublin Bus with Ciarán to find out why it keeps happening and why the policy has continued this way. As of this moment, I have not heard back from Dublin Bus. I am still requesting that meeting as I have had issues the last three mornings going to work.

About a year ago, I started a career in the Civil Service as a clerical officer. I got a new chair in 2020. About four weeks before Covid, the HSE issued me a new power chair. It is half the range of my previous power chair, which is no use to me now as I commute to work. When I get home in the evening, I do not have any range left to do social skills. I do not have that opportunity. That is one of the issues I face. We are all encouraged as people with disabilities to go out there with people, work to our full potential and get gainful employment but that memo has not reached the HSE.

I have been on a housing priority list for two years. What does priority housing mean? It does not mean a lot because none of the new-build homes are being fitted with wet rooms or any of that stuff. It is all being built afterwards. There is a building policy, I heard from Ciarán, going through the Houses of the Oireachtas and there is not one word about disability or accessibility in it, which I do not think is good enough. It is like people with disabilities are being forgotten about again by the policymakers in Leinster House and that needs to change. I am not asking for much, just to make life easier for all people with disabilities.

Ms Saoirse Smith:

I am sorry for being late; the traffic was very bad this morning. I am a civil servant. I also do comedy outside my normal 9 to 5. The major issue I face in doing comedy is the lack of accessibility to buildings. I have to crawl up stairs to go to my gigs, which is degrading in itself. It is disgusting and exhausting. Many members might be thinking why I do not find an accessible venue. One, why should I? Two, it is very difficult to do. The majority of Dublin is not accessible. I cannot get into nearly all the buildings on the new pedestrianised Capel Street. That is no use to me. There needs to be new rules to make buildings accessible for people like me. There needs to be new legislation that allows buildings to be renovated, whether they are historical or not. My answer to everything, when people say a building is historical or whatever, is since when are buildings more important than people? They are just buildings. They are not important. If Áras an Uachtaráin can be accessible, why cannot other buildings be accessible? Leinster House is accessible. There needs to be a major change and constant communication with people in the disabled community on what we need. It is one thing to give us lip service and say members are hearing and listening to us but we need them to do something about it. That is the main thing. It is very frustrating that nothing is being done and I am still struggling to find somewhere all the time.

Another issue I constantly face, and it is coming up again soon, is the constant fear of losing my medical card. I do not mind saying I am currently earning €466 a week. I can earn up to a maximum of approximately €500 a week. In my next increment at work, I will be over the income bracket, which means I am in fear of losing my medical card and everything else. I need my medical card. It pays for my chair, which can be a couple of grand at most, my cushion, any adaptions and accessories I need, including electric wheels which I am currently trying to get, any procedures, and doctors' visits, which I currently and regularly go to. That is a constant fear. I had to have a conversation with my employer about possibly doing fewer hours so I do not lose my medical card, which I should not have to do. It should not be means-tested. It should be done on a case-by-case basis. There should not be a constant fear of losing absolutely everything. It is a constant fear that I will lose my medical card. I cannot afford all the procedures and everything I get done on a regular basis. I just physically cannot. It is just impossible.

On the past couple of occasions, and when I go to work, I have had issues with public transport. I have been late more than ten times in the past month at 8 a.m. People in Dublin Bus have been rude to my mother. When she asks why the bus is not working, the response is it is just that bus that is not working but all the rest of them are. That is not a good response. It is unacceptable. I am constantly late for work and constantly have to send emails to my boss to say, "I am really sorry. I am going to be late because the ramps are not working". I am getting rude remarks from drivers who say it is not their problem, but it means I am stuck for 20 minutes waiting for a bus, possibly in the rain or in the heat, which is horrendous for a wheelchair user. It is just a constant fear.

I reiterate what my colleague said about housing. My boyfriend and I are currently looking for housing through the housing assistance payment, HAP. Every house or place we visited has baths. I cannot use a bath. I need a shower. All new developments have baths but more accessible things need to be put in.

I will remark on what our Taoiseach said, who made a very ableist comment that Sinn Féin's politics were for slow learners. His response to that was appalling. His original remark was tactless and he needs to properly apologise. Even if that remark was made God knows how many years ago, it was not appropriate then and is not appropriate now. He sets a precedent for this Government. He has to be better than everyone else when it comes to disabilities. If that is his attitude, then that is the attitude of the rest of the Government, in my eyes. He needs to change that.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

I thank the Chair. I am delighted to be back in Leinster House to speak on issues that are so important. This all comes on the back of the "Prime Time" special, "Access all Areas", which came from Mr. Delaney. The committee will hear from him quite a lot. That was his brainchild. He approached Isabel Perceval in RTÉ. I pay tribute to what the guys in RTÉ did because it was very powerful. It did not focus on us all being poor, disabled people. It focused on how the system disables us in living our day-to-day lives, which committee members, as legislators, have the power to change, if the political will and appetite is there.

I am 39 years of age. I have cerebral palsy and am in a power chair. I have an assistance dog. For the benefit of those who are not present, she is on the floor behind me. Gail is an extension of me in that she helps me retrieve dropped items so I do not always have to get a human to help me, which is an awful lot better. I am one of the lucky ones. This is a statement I want the committee to remember: I am a minority of a minority who has a job. I have worked for Sky Ireland since 2014 as a service adviser and I worked for East Coast FM as a sports reporter but, as someone with a disability in Ireland, I am lucky to have a job. That comes down to the lack of supports that are there to encourage employers to employ people with disabilities.

Clearly, I am sitting in a power chair. This has been brought up at other committee meetings, but the HSE employs a company to do repairs to chairs. That company is horrendous. It takes months and months to get a repair. For example, I am just back from Canada after representing Ireland last month in a sport called boccia. My chair was broken by Air Canada, which it told me about straightaway. Air Canada is trying to pay for the damage to the chair. It contacted Fannin, the company, a couple of weeks ago but it still has not sent Air Canada a quote. That is more than three weeks ago. Air Canada is asking where the quote is and I say, "This is normal". I do not know what way the tendering process is done but just because a company is cheap does not make it good. This chair is my legs. If I do not have my legs, I cannot go to work. I cannot do anything. My employer is very good at understanding that but I should not have to say I cannot go somewhere because my chair is broken.

As I said, in 2014, when I started working for Sky, in the eyes of the State, and everyone laughs when I say this, I am cured. I do not have a disability anymore. I lost my medical card, my travel pass and my disability allowance because I am "cured" - this chair is a mirage and I should not be competing in the Paralympics. When I met Mr. Delaney in 2017, doing his advocacy work outside Leinster House, l told him about this. He got me into a super committee. As a result of the testimony at that, a three-year transition period was introduced but I did not even get that. For the love of God, your disability does not go away after three years. What most members probably do not realise is that having a disability incurs extra costs in terms of transport and using public transport, which does not work, or when lifts are broken and you have to get taxis. You find you get overcharged by wheelchair taxi drivers because they know you do not have another option. Since you are cured in the eyes of the State, that is a huge problem. That is something that needs to change. Your disability does not disappear after three years. Whoever came up with that concept needs a reality check. It is not acceptable to have people with disabilities in a panic that they will lose their supports. As legislators, members have the power to change that.

Mr. Delaney does amazing work as an advocate. He is the one who gets things done. If I ring the HSE, I do not get an answer. He makes one phone call and in ten minutes he comes back with an answer on matters such as my personal assistant hours. I was having an issue with that and could not get an answer from the HSE for five years. Mr. Delaney made one phone call and I then got an answer. That is part of the problem. There is no respect for people with disabilities. There is nobody in the Government with the actual lived experience.

A really good idea would be possibly having someone like Mr. Delaney as one of the Taoiseach's appointments to the Seanad. He has lived experience and knows what the system is about. We have quotas for encouraging female politicians and other minority groups to get involved in politics. In that context, I challenge every party, including those in the Government and the Opposition, to put in place a quota to get people with disabilities into politics. I genuinely thought about this. What would have been the point of doing that because nothing works? Governments promise things but they do not do anything. Oppositions will agree and they get stuff.

People with a disability, therefore, learn that they are nearly better off on the outside because it is really hard to change the system. In 2023, it is horrendous that as a society it takes RTÉ's "Prime Time" programme to get us into Leinster House and to be able to do this. It is really bad we have been forced to do this. It is bad that we have been forced to go out and say to the State that we need help and we cannot do this. I have flown all over the world as part of the Paralympics and I have been really lucky. Other countries are so much better. We should also be so much better because we have so much money in the economy. I know undertakings will be given today that things will be better, but I know when I wheel out that door that I will be forgotten about. As Ms Saoirse Smith said on "Prime Time", we are forgotten people of Ireland and this must change. I thank everyone.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Moran very much. I call Ms Niamh Kilcawley.

Ms Niamh Kilcawley:

I am blind and a secondary school student who has just finished transition year. I was diagnosed with a brain tumour when I was eight years old. I lost my sight that summer. I had extreme headaches and was rushed down to Beaumont Hospital for surgery. After that was over, I had lost my sight to a significant extent. During that year, I had 18 months of chemotherapy. This meant I had missed attending a great deal of school. I had also missed seeing my friends. During that time, I had to adjust to not only losing my sight but also to going through chemotherapy.

Last year, I sat my junior certificate examinations. I was not aware of all the accommodations I was eligible to receive. I only found out that I was entitled to 20-minute rest breaks and ten minutes extra per hour of each exam. To have the same opportunities and the same breaks as everybody else, I could have the exam times adjusted. I was not made aware of these accommodations, but thanks to Mr. Delaney, I was able to receive them.

I challenge anybody to do an exam with a blindfold on because there is not enough time. It is disgraceful that it is ten minutes extra. For me to dictate to my scribe, have the question read out, tell him or her how to write my answer, to write my name down on the exam paper and even to think about the question means those ten minutes are gone. I do not know how anybody can think that is enough time. I am upset that the individual needs of the student are not taken into account. Everybody is different, yet we are treated as one size fits all.

I hope this change will happen because in two years' time I will be sitting my leaving certificate examinations and the accommodations in that context are worse. For subjects like English, no extra time is allocated as it is seen as being a situation where extra has been added for everyone already. This is disgraceful and makes me think that if these changes do not happen, then this will affect my job opportunities, even though I aspire to be independent. I want to be able to live by myself and to have a job. For me to be able to do this, though, I need people to support me. As Louis Braille once said, we do not need your pity, nor do we need to be reminded we are vulnerable. To be able to be equal, however, we do need your help. I thank the committee.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Niamh Kilcawley very much. I call Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

Before I start, there is one thing about Niamh I think the committee would like to hear. As a result of the extra time we found by using the handbook, will she please tell the committee where she came in the results for her school's junior certificate examinations?

Ms Niamh Kilcawley:

I had the best results in my school. This was because of what we found out about those accommodations we were unaware of. Those helped me significantly. I just want to have the same opportunities as everyone else. It took a lot of hard work for me to be able to receive the grades I did in my examinations. I would describe it as saying that everybody else has to walk while I have to sprint, and this should not be the case.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

I just thought that was important.

I thank Niamh, Saoirse, Dylan, and Padraic for their willingness to participate in the RTÉ "Prime Time" special programme entitled, “Access All Areas”, and for their attendance here. It would be remiss of me not to thank Isabel Perceval, the producer responsible for the programme, and the camerapersons and production team who worked with Isabel to put them all at their ease. I believe the disabled community could have a profound impact on the next tranche of elections, but it does not suit certain disability organisations, whether they be classed as civil society or DPOs, for us to achieve our potential. Furthermore, as Padraic said, as the largest minority in the State, I feel it is incumbent on the State to create a quota similar to what has been introduced for women to force political parties to select disabled candidates to stand in the next election.

Last year, the Seanad unanimously approved a proposal that a Disabled Parliament would be held in the Seanad Chamber. This was suggested by Senator Jerry Buttimer, who is now Cathaoirleach. Hopefully, we will have the first sitting next December, during the International Month for People with Disabilities. This committee needs to support this initiative by supporting its progress in whatever way it can in the Business Committee and to work with me and others in Disabled Parliament Ireland to address any obstacles. We seem to be forgotten when we consider other initiatives have been rolled out, including supporting women to run for election, Dáil na nÓg, the Youth Assembly on Climate in the Dáil, everything but disability. In local authorities, we have biodiversity officers, tree officers and active travel officers to encourage cycling and walking, but there is not one disability officer in any local authority in this country.

Presumably, in the spirit of equality and respect for the disabled community, which I will remind everyone again is the largest minority in the Republic of Ireland, the State will afford our community the same level of engagement as it has with members of the LGBTQIA+, and our flag be flown over public buildings, pedestrian crossings will be painted purple and the corporate community will treat us with the same level of empathy, inclusion and respect as we witness during Pride.

It must be a matter of concern that one of the last sets of statistics to be released from Census 2022 are those concerning disability. This should tell everyone here, those listening and watching around the extended Leinster House campus or wherever people are engaging, where we as a community rate when it comes to priorities. There needs to be a wholesale review of how the disabled section of the census is constructed to enable cogent information to be extrapolated using geographical information systems, GIS, to assist in the prioritisation of the provision of resources.

I also suggest that this committee re-evaluates its programme for after the summer recess and sets up a series of joint hearings with every other committee to seek the following answers. Has the Department that reports to that committee conducted a review to quantify what budget is required and estimated the timeline necessary to address the requirements of the disabled community so we have equality of access? What legislation coming under the purview of the Department in question that would enhance the lives of people with disabilities is yet to be enacted? What deficits in legislation have been identified by the Civil Service that need to be addressed and what steps have been taken to start preparing to do so? I invite the members to ask me questions so I can expand on these points.

When it comes to the Department of Social Protection, then, what steps are being taken to address the restoration of the pre-financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, cuts? The Members of both Houses of this Oireachtas failed the disabled community throughout the recent pandemic. The State deemed it appropriate to give increased payments to those who were unemployed due to the pandemic - some €350 weekly - while letting the disabled community try to survive on €203. Is it not absolutely amazing that this State appears to be able to find money for everything other than issues impacting the disabled community? When, if ever, is the State going to reintroduce the full pre-FEMPI household package, which included free telephone line rental and, instead of €35 per month for electricity or gas, the allocation was either 200 units during the spring and summer season or 300 units during the autumn and winter season. This would have equated to €86 plus VAT during the spring and summer season and €129 plus VAT during the autumn and winter season. This is a hell of a difference from €70.

We have families crying out for assistive aids, students waiting for technology to assist them be the best that they can be and families waiting for scoliosis operations and other medical procedures. Everything could resolved if there was the political will.

We have brand new buses being purchased which Mr. Moran cannot use because the specifications being given to the manufacturers do not factor in the size of his and other power chairs. Mr. Moran has travelled with me on buses in the UK, made by the exact same manufacturers that supply buses here. I invite members to ask me why this is. I have permission from Irish Rail to invite the Joint Committee on Disability Matters to come to Inchicore to look at the brand new rail carriage to see what happens when a company interacts with the disability community and to see what has developed. I would be happy to engage with Mairead and Tracey afterwards to arrange that. To aid effective use of the time available to the committee and the witnesses, I am going to stop here and let the members ask the questions that they deem appropriate of the five of us.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dylan, Niamh, Padraic, Saoirse and Ciarán for their input. There is absolutely no doubt, from much of what they have said, that people have been let down badly, particularly those working in the disability sector and those who are disabled. I listened to the witnesses' stories. Each tells us what is happening to people on the ground. It is quite disturbing. We do not have all the answers. I am not going to say that when the witnesses leave, things are going to change dramatically, because it is not going to happen like that. It will happen over a period, I hope. This committee is doing much to try to put pressure on to make things happen and foster change. I hope that will happen.

Mr. Nelson mentioned the wheelchair and its range. It just shows the lack of foresight. He has a 7 km range and has to charge up the wheelchair, which takes time. The witnesses mentioned issues about buses, which have been raised here a number of times. There are issues with spaces and with people coming to bus stops and being turned away because the space has been used up. This has been mentioned here many times.

I am particularly concerned about matters relating to housing. This is obviously a problem for everyone. In new housing schemes, there should be quotas for people with disabilities. It is never targeted in the local authorities when schemes are being built. There should be specific targets for individuals who require special adaptations or whatever. The local authorities should be doing that.

Mr. Moran mentioned that the law was changed for people with disabilities who were starting work, which allows them to be assessed for disability allowance at a reduced rate. Their medical cards continue for three years and the travel pass continues for five. What happens after that? It is really unfair. Disability does not go away; it is still there. The committee made a recommendation that people on disability allowance should be judged on disability, not on earnings or otherwise. A disability does not just go away. I would like to hear some comment on that.

Ms Smith referred to accessibility. That is a major problem. In particular, she mentioned old buildings, cellars, and places like that where she would work and need access. We need to continue to address this with the local authorities and others. Many of these places do not have toilets or anything like that, which is absolutely appalling.

I was caught by what Ms Kilcawley said about exams. When it came to doing exams, there were about ten extra minutes per hour. To me, ten minutes is damn all to allow someone to finish. There would be someone to assist in that. Will she give us an idea of how bad that is and how that affects her?

Mr. Delaney talked about the budget. We need to focus on the budget, what way it is directed and how it is being utilised. He mentioned legislation which is needed. We have still not dealt with the optional protocol. We have signed up to the UNCRPD but we still have not signed up a really important protocol and completed that legislation. It looks like that will drag on a bit. Maybe Mr. Delaney can tell us what he thinks with regard to that. I feel I would have been insulted in Mr. Delaney's position. I probably never even thought about it when the pandemic was happening and the €350 was given out to people, when Mr. Delaney was receiving €203 or whatever. If that was what the Government judged that people could live on, why are people on disability allowance being asked to live on the amount they receive? It just does not make sense. I would like to accept the invitation to look at the new buses, trains and so on to see what can be done.

I would like to hear some more about things that affect the witnesses directly. We do not often get a chance to do so. We get many of the different networks, the HSE and so on coming in, but we never hear directly about what is happening. It really is an eye-opener.

Mr. Dylan Nelson:

On housing, there are 150 new apartments and compact houses on the Drimnagh Road in the constituency in which I live. I drove past each of those properties and they all have a step at the front door. These are brand new homes and there is a step at the front door. It is 2023. There should be no steps. They should be accessible. I am living in a bedroom that was built for me when I was eight years old. I am nearly 30. My mother put in for changes to be made by my local council in order to have my room extended to give me more space because I have not stayed the same height and width that I was when I was eight. The council rejected this and said there was no need.

My room has not been updated to suit my needs in 21 years. My mother has done 90% of the work herself, between saving up and selling her car at one point to do major works that had to be carried out because the council did not insulate the bedroom properly when it was first built. There is nothing for people with disabilities. The floor in my bathroom is starting to lift because it was not laid properly. The council came out and the only thing it could say was that it is terrible. I do not need pity. I need someone to actually take action. My mother does not need anyone's pity. She needs someone to actually do something. Then the council said there was an issue with the planning permission for my bedroom.

Unfortunately, the guy who built it passed away after doing so. I remember him well. He never got the right paperwork in. The council wanted to knock down the extension but my mother raised the case and all of a sudden it just forget about it.

New-build homes not having what are commonly known as wet rooms is a basic thing. It is a lot easier to put a wet room into an apartment when it is being built than for a council to rip out all its plumbing after it decides it is the one it is going to offer you. For two years, I have been on the priority list as a medical priority due to my not having the right facilities in my current property. Two years is a long time when you are classed as a priority. I went from ninth on the list to tenth. Therefore, I am going the wrong way on the list. When I should be going down, I am going up. Where is the prioritisation in that? I do not know.

On buses, I constantly take verbal abuse from bus drivers on my way to work. I have left out the bad language. I work in a Department and am not working from home. I have to be in the office. People depend on my being there. The section I work in deals with the public. I cannot say to someone that I cannot help on a given day because I am not in the office. I have to be there; I have no choice.

On top of that, if my wheelchair breaks, I could have to wait ten weeks for new parts. When you ring the HSE, the earliest response is that it will send out a different chair as soon as possible but might not have one to suit your needs. I came up with a suggestion for the HSE, namely, that we be given backup wheelchairs we can keep at home that would get us to work in the event of an emergency. They do not have to be spectacular or have all the things the chair I am in has but it just has to do the job in the short term. The HSE said no, its attitude being that it did not ask me to get a job. That is what I was told by my occupational therapist that I was never asked to get a job. On the one hand, the State is saying you should go to the Civil Service if you are disabled and that it will accommodate your needs, whereas, on the other hand, you are being told that, because you got a job, it is your problem.

I actually researched this matter. I said to the HSE that a bike would go onto the front of my manual chair and give me the option to get to work in an emergency. It was only €5,000 because the HSE gets 20% off. I was not looking for another €15,000 wheelchair; I was just looking for a quick and easy option so that if in the morning my power chair did not start, I could jump into my backup option and go. However, this was rejected on the basis that it was my problem because I got a job. That, to me, is just not acceptable.

On getting repairs, even to my power chair, I cannot ring the HSE and say I need my chair fixed at work. I have to ring Mr. Delaney and arrange for the engineer to come to my office. If I ring and ask the engineer to come to the office, I will be told I have to do it from home. Before I got Mr. Delaney involved in this issue, I had to take two days off work just to get my chair serviced, not even repaired. That is the great service that the company employed by the HSE provides. Yes, it is cheap, but it is cheap for a reason, and it is not because it is good.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. The UNCRPD was mentioned. Ireland was one of the first countries to sign up to that, in 2007. We enacted part of it. I said before, at another hearing, that the Government gives people with disabilities crumbs. Part of convention was enacted but the protocol was not. Why is the protocol not enacted? It is because, if it is enacted, you have to legislate for it. If you legislate for, you have to fund it. If you do not fund it, you have Europe to answer to. That is part of the problem.

According to the last census, there are 643,131 people registered with disabilities. Given families of three, that amounts to 1.92 million votes. That is why Mr. Delaney's idea of a Parliament for the disabled is really good. What is happening in government indicates there is not enough lived experience. A couple of years ago, when Mr. Shane Ross was the Minister, Mr. Delaney suggested that people with disabilities be put on State boards. That has helped a lot because of their experience. It means there are people making decisions who understand what having a disability is like and how to improve the circumstances of people with disabilities.

It was stated that we were forgotten about during the pandemic. It is a case in point. The Deputy hoped things will change in time but I am 39 and have been hearing that since 1995. Things have got a little better but it should not take the Government so long to do things. It is not as if people with disabilities just materialised. We are here and we are people. We are not steerage. "Steerage" is a harsh word but that is how we are treated by the Government. We are not treated with the same respect as others.

Again, we go back to the fear of losing entitlements. I have a long-term illness book because I was born with cerebral palsy, and I am also asthmatic. However, because the book states that cerebral palsy is not related to asthma, I have to cover the cost of my own asthma medication. This is even though I have a long-term illness book but no medical card. Could someone please tell me who makes this up? It does not make sense.

Mr. Nelson touched on the matter of his chair. My chair also breaks, all the time. In 2019, when former Senator John Dolan was in Leinster House, my chair was approved for funding. Mr. Delaney happened to mention the matter to the Senator. He made one phone call and the funding was approved for my chair the next day. As a result of my chair breaking down so much, I got a backup chair. I got it because of pressure from Mr. Delaney, not because I asked. He was using the implements of the House. It should not be that way. We should not have to fight all the time for basic supports. It has taken me five years to get assessed for hours to live my life. This is now in process. The HSE used to say my mam could do what was required. She is 83 and should not have to do it anymore. She did her duty until I was 18. I want to be independent but I am disabled by the State because, as it is, it does not care. The Government does not care about people with disabilities. If it did, the system would be a lot better.

I have seen many countries. I have been to Beijing, Colombia and Canada. From my having been to many different countries, I note that we are so bad at doing many things, although we should be so good. We are in a position in which we have a surplus going into the next budget. A huge tranche of that should be put towards disability services and the HSE. If the Government and Opposition are serious about treating people with disabilities with respect, that needs to happen. There is no point in everyone sitting here today saying they agree things need to change; the members have to change things or each party needs to get people with disabilities on the next ballot paper. It is the only way things are going to change; otherwise we are going to keep doing this every couple of years and nothing will change.

Ms Saoirse Smith:

I reiterate the point on access. I have been in many public spaces that have had steps and disabled toilets inside. This makes no sense. I had to be carried in. Recently, I was somewhere that had a disabled toilet but where the bars had been taken off the wall and the alarm had been removed. It just does not make sense. It is a safety issue. When I brought the matter to the attention of the manager of the place and said it was a safety issue and that someone was going to fall, he said he would look into it, which basically means he is not going to do anything.

On my employment, due to the fact that I am receiving a small amount of disability benefit, I am not entitled to any sick pay if I am off for longer than three months. I pay taxes. I am actually paying for my colleagues' sick pay, not my own.

I pay taxes, so that means I am paying for my colleagues' sick pay but not my own. I was told that because I receive a small amount of disability allowance, I am not entitled to it. I have regular injections for my spine because I suffer with chronic pain and I am out of work for a couple of weeks at a time because I need to recuperate. As with Mr. Nelson, my chair broke. The seat literally came off. I had to use a very old chair, my back was in excruciating pain and I had to work from home, which meant I could not be in the office. I was able to work from home but I need to be out. I could not go out and meet my friends and I could not meet my boyfriend. I could not do anything. I was relying on my mam. I am also constantly relying on her for hospital appointments. I went to the hospital recently and it was so outdated. The beds could not be lowered. I had to use a chair and my arms to pull myself up onto the bed. It was so old and it was not safe. The staff did not know how to work the beds. They nearly caused me to fall off the bed, to be honest. It was dangerous and I did not feel safe. I could not fit into any of the disabled toilets in that hospital to get the spinal injections I need.

I made a speech at the Minding Creative Minds summit in which I said that if I get a grant or win an award for any kind of artistic thing I do, my disability allowance will be taken into consideration and the Department will deduct the amount. People cannot avail of any of those things. There was an audible gasp from the 125 people present. They were shocked and appalled that this is the case. It should not be the case for artists, especially when they are relying on such awards to help further their careers. People who are in the arts cannot do that. I cannot do that. I went to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in 2019. I was in debt of €2,000 and I had to pay that off with my disability money, which was only €205 at the time. I was broke and relying on my mam. I should not have to rely on my mam; I should be able to speak for myself.

This country has really let me down. In the 1990s, when we used to go on the bus, my dad would tell me not sit in the elderly spot because someone else needed it more than me. Now I am the person who needs that spot on the bus more than others, but I cannot get on the bus half the time. Like Mr. Nelson, I receive verbal abuse. Sometimes I am out on the streets, though I have fallen lately. I fell over and banged my knee and hurt my back, just after having spinal injections. That put me in jeopardy. The money is going into the wrong things when streets are being redeveloped. The old paths need to be fixed instead of building new things. The money is going into the wrong places and we are not thought of at all. I do not feel I am being treated like a human. I feel invisible. People call me an inspiration because I come here and talk, but I do not want to be seen as an inspiration. I want to be seen as just me. You are nice people but I do not want to have to come in and talk to you. I want to be listened to, heard and seen.

Ms Niamh Kilcawley:

For my exams, I was told my junior certificate examinations would be modified, which means there would be no diagrams. However, when I sat the exams a question on the paper that was meant to be adapted gave the instruction to look at the picture and answer the question. I am sure members are aware I cannot do that. I had to rely on my scribe for the interpretation of the picture to be able to answer the question. I do not understand how people with no individual experience can adapt my paper when they clearly do not know how. I want to be able to be independent and I am relying on parents.

I do not have enough equipment in school for me to be able to do my homework by myself. I am going into fifth year next year. How is that going to work for me? I should not have to rely on my parents. They have better things to be doing than my homework. If I am not able to do my homework, I am far behind everyone else and I have to pre-learn things. How is it acceptable to tell somebody there is not enough equipment for them and they will not be given enough time in their exams? That basically says to me that it does not matter, that I will not have the same chances as everyone else. It is upsetting and worrying to me there is no co-operation with the Department of Education. I do not want to get extra help. I do not want to have an advantage over everyone else. I want to make a difference and to have the same opportunities as everyone else. I want to be able to help not only myself, but others who come after me. That needs to happen soon and I hope it happens before my leaving certificate.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

On the leaving certificate, I apologise for my autistic bluntness, but the geniuses who work at the State Examinations Commission expect this young woman, Ms Kilcawley, to be proficient in using a word processor for her leaving certificate exams. That is two years from now. Quite a lot of the members have been in this House a long time. I have been using a laptop. The vast majority of us in here write unless we have been trained or we are very good typing with two or three fingers. That is not on. I ask the committee to get the SEC in here and ask its staff what in God's name they are playing at. The SEC's mantra is that students are supposed to do the work and show they have got the knowledge. I do not know whether it can be done in here, but if the examinations.iewebsite was put up on the screens in the room, members' jaws would hit the ground. It is appalling.

It was only as a result of a fluke meeting in Waterford where I was talking about the JAM card, for which I am an ambassador, that I happened to bump into Ms Kilcawley. She happened to mention there were issues. I went looking for the booklet but it was impossible to find. I found the booklet the SEC uses via a link provided on Google by another school and started digging. Those who know me - and I am sure this will bring a smile to Deputy Feighan's face - know when I get my teeth into something I just do not stop. Lo and behold, there was another booklet. This booklet had the details. I discovered not only that Ms Kilcawley was entitled to ten minutes per hour like everybody else but that she was also entitled to ten minutes per hour due to extenuating medical circumstances. That caused her time to jump by 40 minutes. She also had a double exam. You could not make this up, but the SEC wanted to cut her lunch break by 40 minutes, even though its own rules say lunch breaks can be extended. There are even issues with the current certificate exams. This may be irregular, but Ms Kilcawley is fully aware of them and she can explain what is going on. It is an absolute joke.

I should not have to be fighting for everyone. I should not have to get a call from Mr. Nelson telling me he is stuck because his wheelchair does not work. I made a phone call to the company, and the next thing Mr. Nelson tweeted a photograph of his wheelchair in work. Mr. Moran went along and it was basically the same thing. I should not have to do this. I have no problem with doing it but I should not have to. Deputy Ellis asked what politicians can do. They can stop using Twitter to decide the legislative agenda. I do not care who I offend with what I have said. The duty of Members of the Houses is to serve all people in this State equally. The Deputy and his party can do something simple on the optional protocol. Is anybody in here thinking of bringing in a Private Members' Bill to ratify it? God have mercy on anybody who voted against it because they would be annihilated. How about introducing a Private Members' Bill instead of foostering around? Members can put one in on basically any topic.

On the disability allowance, it is not that you might have to repay something.

If you go over that limit, everything is gone. You lose your disability allowance. You keep your medical card for three years and you keep your free travel for five years. After five years, like what Mr. Moran said about his chair, everything disappears. Come off the stage, lads.

EU legislation disables us. The EU has recently reimagined the legislation. There is no obligation on EU railways to make their facilities and services wheelchair accessible. There have been derogations. Since 2009, the National Transport Authority has had the legal power under section 13(2)(i) of the Public Transport Regulation Act to state the accessibility criteria for buses, as well as the emissions criteria. Is it not amazing that a Green Party Minister has made sure that everything has been done in respect of emissions but nothing has been done about accessibility?

I met and spoke to representatives of Volvo at a bus show. I berated them but they told me they only work to the specifications they are given. I can arrange for the committee to go over to Scarborough to meet a bus manufacturer, Alexander Dennis, the representatives of which I have spoken to. I arranged with Deputy O'Dowd to have an Oireachtas joint committee on access to public transport for people with disabilities. I ask this committee to go back to the Joint Committee on Transport to ask for a joint hearing to revisit the issue and see what progress has been made on the 16 points.

There are no changing room facilities in here. The Public Gallery in the Seanad cannot accommodate a wheelchair. People in wheelchairs must go into the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. Leinster House had hundreds of millions spent on it. Politicians can find money for everything. Is it not amazing that all the money could be found to respond to the pandemic and to house refugees fleeing the war in Ukraine? None of us would argue about that. Why could the same energy not be spent on taking care of us? There are 643,000 disabled people in the country. The expectation is that the number will rise to 800,000 in the next census. We need to consider that.

The other thing that Ministers have a happy knack of doing is hiding behind Deputy Rabbitte. She is the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, which is great. However, every other Minister should not be pawning off the issue. That is why I have said we should bring in representatives of all Departments and ask them have they disability-proofed their budgets and what they are doing. Under the 2005 Disability Act, there are sectoral plans but they are a select bunch. I ask Deputies Ellis and Tully to do us all a favour because I do not know who among the Government parties would be willing to do it. I ask them to table an amendment to the 2005 Disability Act requiring that every single Government Department produce a sectoral plan as to how people with disabilities are respected.

I also raise the carer's allowance. It is an absolute disgrace that a carer will not get funding because the payment is means tested. House adaptations are also means tested. When was the last time anyone looked at the figure of €30,000 in the context of construction inflation?

The solution is in the gift of the committee. I will work with any of the committee members. I am saying that publicly. I will work here free of charge. I will come up from Cork, as I have done in the past, as the Chair is aware. I will help the committee in whatever way I can to fix this broken system. It is frustrating that politicians can do so many things but around legislation, they seem to be Twitter-based.

I have a comment to make about autism. I should inform the committee that autism is apparently not a lifelong condition. When I initially approached the Department of Social Protection to avail of the disability allowance, I was told that my autism would not last longer than a year. Are they not great people?

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We have a number of members to fit in. The content of the evidence that has been given this morning has been extremely powerful, and empowers us. On one of the points that was made, yesterday the committee issued a statement that all policy would have to be disability-proofed. I am conscious that everyone has questions. On a weekly basis, we are empowered by the evidence we hear of the lived experience of our witnesses. The responses to the previous question took 40 minutes. I ask our guests to bear with us because we are under time constraints, to be frank. I say that just as I am about to call Deputy Frank Feighan. Please bear with us because we have to adhere to the time limits.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Our guests are very welcome. I know Mr. Delaney from Leinster House. He is a wonderful and powerful advocate. I thank him for all the work he has done. I will come back to talk to him but I will first address Mr. Nelson. It is very frustrating that he was refused a wheelchair space on the bus. A meeting with Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus needs to be expedited as quickly as possible to iron out any difficulties. Mr. Nelson should not have had to go through that kind of abuse. There should be places on a bus for disabled passengers.

The planning and development Bill currently going through the Houses of the Oireachtas contains little or no reference to disability in its 732 pages. Perhaps we should check that out and talk to the officials who put the Bill together. That is informative for us.

Ms Smith is a comedian and civil servant. I congratulate her on her awards. She mentioned Capel Street and proposed a medical card that is means tested by case, which is interesting. It is an area where politicians are frustrated as to how to get the best for people who have cancer and things like that. Most politicians would like some mechanism to be put in place to ensure means testing is done on a case-by-case basis. We need to do a lot more on that.

I congratulate Mr. Moran on his success in the Paralympics. Is East Coast FM the station for which he is a sports reporter?

Mr. Padraic Moran:

That is correct.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate him on that. I thank him for what he said about Mr. Delaney's role in Leinster House. He was a part of the team of former Senator John Dolan. Mr. Dolan and Mr. Delaney were strong advocates for disability issues in Leinster House. I heard Mr. Delaney say that there is a case to be made for appointing somebody for disability in each sector. That is something I will bring back to my party to see if there is anything that can be done.

Ms Kilcawley mentioned examinations. The one-size-fits-all approach has not worked. I also congratulate her on her success. This has been a complete eye-opener. In examinations, those with disabilities need every possible assistance to give them a level playing field. Ms Kilcawley certainly excelled in the examinations and I am sure the people of Sligo and Waterford are proud of her. I thank her.

There is a guide dog over there; I do not know the name of the guide dog.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

Gill.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Ms Kilcawley just said someone needs to be 16 years old to have a guide dog, which is something I was not aware of. There needs to be a relaxation of the rules to bring it to 14 or something like that. Perhaps the criterion of waiting until 16 needs to be explored. I know how valuable and necessary it is to have a guide dog.

Mr. Delaney spoke about supporting women to run for election, Dáil na nÓg, climate change and everything with disability. That is certainly something we can bring back from this meeting. I know he worked with Shane Ross on having people with disability appointed to State boards. That has been a significant voice and I thank Mr. Delaney for bringing that in. It was something that people did not think about or perhaps denied. We want this committee to be a voice. I know the Chair is very focused on ensuring that whatever is said here today does not just go into the ether and that it is brought back. Each and every one of us is anxious to do that.

If a bus in the UK has a requirement for a wheelchair such as those used by Mr. Moran, Mr. Nelson or Ms Smith, surely we should be able to follow that model. I again thank the witnesses for coming in today and telling it as it is. Along with the Chair, I will certainly bring those views back.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I might ask two of the witnesses to respond and then we can move on to the next one.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

The National Transport Authority does not have a disabled director even though the former Minister, Shane Ross, said that there was to be one. I was at a meeting with Mr. Ross along with civil servants. I was getting tired and said there was an easy solution to this which is to appoint disabled directors. It took him one second to say it was a good idea and let us do it. He said we had to ask the officials. The sanitised version is that I knew the answer and they knew the answer. Mr. Ross said, in other words, that it can be done. It took six weeks to get it through the process. Every Department should have the lived voice.

I am 60 and Ms Kilcawley is 16. The whole point of the exam is to empower people. I ask the committee to ask the Department of Education what the waiting list for assistive technology is. If the committee is amenable, it should invite Féach Ireland, which is the organisation that represents visually impaired and blind young people who will be dealing with State exams, to look at it. I will be happy to engage with anyone after this meeting. I will now shut up and let others speak because I am very conscious of the time.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Smith might expand on the medical card in response to Deputy Feighan.

Ms Saoirse Smith:

I apologise as I had trouble hearing Deputy Feighan. Regarding the medical card, everything is means tested. If someone wins an award, disability allowance, the medical card and everything else like that are taken. In my job I constantly have to worry. I want to go for a promotion in my job, but I need to think about what I would lose. I would lose the help for my chair. My chair costs about €4,000. The wheels alone cost €400. I then need to pay for someone to fix the chair. My chair is like a car; it needs to be serviced every few months and that costs €120.

Regarding my medications, I do not just have cerebral palsy but have other things as well, which is unfortunate. It is a constant fear. I have that fear now and it gives me anxiety. Many of the things I do regularly give me anxiety and depression. I go to counselling which I pay for myself. I asked for help for counselling in 2019 and I was only contacted last year for assistance under mental health. Everything is so expensive for disabled people - our equipment, our medication and house adaptations. I have adaptations in my home. I need my medical card to help me to live. If I am to live by myself, I need the adaptations in my house so I can be independent and do not rely on my partner and my mother to help me. I do not want to rely on them. I want to be independent. It really needs to stop being means tested. I am not earning enough to pay for my medical bills.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I have been listening intently; I just cannot come down to the committee room because I have another meeting coming up shortly. A number of things have hit me very clearly. Public representation in the Dáil by people with disabilities is very poor. The committee is relying on witnesses like those present today to outline their experience. I believe we should have a disability quota, representing people both in the Seanad and Dáil. With how the Dáil Chamber is set up at the moment, it is very hard to accommodate people with disabilities, which we need to look into. Much of what the witnesses have said is not new to us. The committee needs to take on board some or all of the suggestions and see how many of them we can get to Government to get movement. The committee is trying to engage and to assist the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and the Department to try to find the funding to help get things sorted out. Much lip service is paid to disabilities. There are many things that are still not even being contemplated as being right. Ms Smith spoke about seeking an appointment in 2019 and not getting it until 2022, which is not on.

I will not pose any questions because it is important to give the witnesses time to explain things to us, which each of them has done so eloquently this morning. As a public representative, I am not proud to hear what they have been telling us. There is an onus on us as a committee. As politicians, if we are really serious about people with disabilities, we should not just treat them with platitudes, thank them and all this kind of thing. The only way to thank them is to give effect to some of the requests they have. That is the thanks we need to give them. We have a body of work to do on that.

The Chair and other committee members will work to try to support the Department to get more money from the Exchequer. There is also an issue with how that money is being spent. Much of what I hear relates to very simple things like education. I used to work in education. It is absolutely damning to think of someone not given every chance to reach their full potential.

It is something we need to address urgently. We have spoken about this and Mr. Delaney is right that every Government policy must be disability proofed in a meaningful way in order that we can look people with disability in the eye and say we are doing something for them and we have helped them and improved their lives.

It is important that the cost of living with a disability is recognised. This is the time to recognise it when we have additional money in the coffers to create the additional disability allowance to help people cope with the cost of living with a disability, irrespective of their circumstances. I applaud everyone who is working or in education who is trying to live as independently as possible. We need to ensure they all reach their goal.

A mother of a child with a disability, a cousin of mine, told me people should not be called disabled, and that it should be stated that people have different abilities. We have to give all people the chance to reach their full potential irrespective of their ability.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is great to meet everyone again. I congratulate them once more on the “Prime Time” programme some weeks ago. It was very powerful, as were their statements here. The more we hear from people with disabilities, the better. We do that all the time at this committee where we hear about all the different issues, but we need to continue to hear them until change is brought about.

I think Ms Kilcawley is wonderful and it is wonderful what she has achieved in her junior certificate results despite the fact the reasonable accommodations provided to her were not sufficient. I know she has met with Ministers and different politicians to discuss her experience of the junior certificate in the hope of changing it not only for herself but also for others. It is wonderful and I hope the State Examinations Commission and the Minister will take on board what she has said so that when Ms Kilcawley is doing her leaving certificate, she will be on a fair playing field so that she can achieve her full potential. I think she is going far anyway.

It is wonderful too to have Ms Smith, Mr. Moran and Mr. Delaney here too. They are three people with disabilities in full-time employment. We hear so many people with disabilities who are unemployed or underemployed. They are wonderful role models. The issues they identify are the ones we hear all the time, such as the fear of the loss of secondary benefits such as the medical card and the free travel pass. Representatives from four different Departments were before the committee last week and we made those points to them. We asked the Department of Social Protection to look at this again because it is a disincentive for disabled people to get a job if they fear they are going to lose their medical card or their free travel pass, which are both very important. We have to do this if we are serious about increasing the number of people we have in employment. We have one of the lowest rates of disabled people in employment and it is a shameful situation. If we are serious about addressing it, we need to look at the issues that are stopping people from getting jobs. The fear of loss of secondary benefits is very real.

The issue of wheelchairs has been raised by a number of speakers. It seems to be because there is only one company. Is there a monopoly on who carries out repairs and who provides wheelchairs? We hear about the long delays in getting wheelchairs fixed or replaced. Sometimes it is months and sometimes years and it is not satisfactory at all. I presume it is the HSE which gives the contract to a particular company, but whoever does so needs to revisit that. Does anyone know when the contract expires with the current provider? It might be something that is worth looking at again.

I was in London some years ago and I thought the buses were amazing. We used buses a lot when we were there. If there was a wheelchair user at a bus stop, the ramp would go down, the person would get on and there was never an issue. It was a seamless provision of transport and I saw none of the problems that were identified here, particularly by Mr. Nelson and Ms Smith, who reported buses not being able to facilitate them. I presume buggies can be folded up and stored elsewhere. They should not be put in a wheelchair place on a bus. We need training for our Dublin Bus operators and our bus operators all over. They need training in disability awareness, and by the sound of it, they also need training in customer relations because it does not sound like they are very polite or nice either.

I admire each of our guests in what they do and how they are representing disabled people, speaking up for them and identifying the issues. Mr. Moran said he does not feel he is politically significant enough but I think disabled people are. In the previous census they numbered 13.5% and we expect it will be higher when we get the information about disability in the most recent census. We will see more people involved and being elected into politics. Quotas should be something we look at. Mr. Moran has a strong voice and politicians should be sure they are aware of that in everything they do.

As I said, we had officials from different Departments here last week and we have had different Ministers and Departments before the committee. We have done that because we want to ensure they do not say things are the responsibility of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We make the point every time to every Minister and Department that all of them have a responsibility to ensure their policies are disability-proofed and to put sufficient money and plans in place to address whatever challenges or barriers are pertinent to their portfolio. That is something we will continue to do.

Mr. Dylan Nelson:

There is an easy solution to the question of the bus. They give up half the space to a luggage bay and they could take the luggage bay out. Just get rid of it. It is plain and simple. If there is a big buggy in the wheelchair bay, I will ask the driver if the chair will fit and can I try to put the chair in the buggy bay. On occasion, on the newer buses, I have been able to do that. It is definitely doable. Some might ask where are people to put their suitcases but let the person hold it. They can do that. It is not out of this world to say we do not need that. I think it was two years ago that I got on a bus in Belfast which could accommodate three wheelchairs. We can barely accommodate one. We are all on the same island. How are we so far behind? It should not be that way.

I took part in a project to help design the new trains with my colleague Mr. Moran. We had to sit and explain very basic things like not putting seats in the wheelchair bay. They were asking us why because the Luas has them. I used to work for the Luas and I told them to take those seats out. They did not take them out but I did say it. It is so basic. Mr. Moran had to make a point at that meeting about why the piece of glass in front of us was dangerous. I had to wonder why we were having to discuss that when it was just common sense. Common sense is not prevailing.

I said earlier how new homes are being built in Drimnagh. I drove past them and saw there is a footstep in front of every one. My wheelchair cannot climb steps. I cannot climb steps and, believe me, I have had to try. It is 2023 and we are building 30,000 new homes every year, the Government says. How many will be accessible at the end of it?

I only qualify for a one-bedroom apartment. They built 100 new apartments and not one was a one-bed. That rules me out straight away. I am probably going to be waiting another two years for an accessible one-bed apartment.

Another big problem is that if somebody else is behind me on another list, they can come in and skip me and push me back down the list. I have gone from ninth on the list for an apartment to sixth at one point and I am now back up to tenth. When am I getting housed? Nobody knows. I am still stuck in a room that is for an eight-year-old child. I am not the same size as I was when I was eight. I wish I was but I am not. It is not good enough. I do not think somebody should be allowed to come onto the housing list and skip me because that is just not fair. They change their preference and then they switch.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

With regard to the medical card, there is a very simple thing there. Irrespective of whether someone works, if they have a long-term disability since birth and it is not going to go away, the card should just stay with them. It should not be about one person earning this much or someone else that much. As I mentioned, there are associated costs such as having to get wheelchair taxis. They are more expensive because they know they can get away with it because you cannot use anything else. It is a very simple fix. The medical card should be left with the person irrespective but we should possibly look at why it is all under the Department of Social Protection. It is not one size fits all anymore. We have moved on since the 1950s and 1960s. It is no longer one size fits all. People with disabilities are encouraged to gain employment. For me, the HSE said that since I was part-time, I would keep all my benefits. I do not want to work part-time. I want to work full-time. I want to be able to go on holidays and do nice things, but the system is set up to disable. It is not there to enable people. That is part of the problem.

There has been talk about quotas. Yes, let us do that. It is not that we should have a discussion about it. It should just be something that can be done in a week. It does not need to be legislated for. It should be done in all parties. They should look at this and pick a quota because it is good to have people with lived experience. I was on the board of Sport Ireland and I was able to make a much more meaningful impact on disability in sport because I was on that board. I was able to explain different things. If there are people in the political parties working within that area, they are going to get a lot more insight.

It is great we get this opportunity but we are all comfortable talking about the challenges we face. Other people are not. Other people do not have a voice because they are not given a chance to have a voice so we end up having to do it for them. I do not mind doing that. I did consider going into politics a few times but then I realised there was no point because nothing changes. Everyone makes undertakings and says this will change but it is going to take time. They should not be saying "it takes time" in 2023. They should be saying it is now done. These committees have been meeting for a long time and they have been hearing about the same issues. We are making the same points. The committee members will go back to their parties and make these points but what is changing? Unfortunately, at times it is lip service. That is something that has to change.

Ms Saoirse Smith:

Like Mr. Moran said, we should be keeping our cards and everything else. There also needs to be better communication and understanding of what disabilities are. The people who are making these decisions do not know what it is like to live with a disability and do not know what a disability is. They jut put us all into boxes - that one has a chair, that one has this - but there are different aspects. We are all different. We need to have people with disabilities in government to help with these decisions. That is a major need because people who do not have disabilities do not understand and are not going to understand until we tell them. That is what we should do and we do do it.

Regarding housing, I was actually rejected on medical grounds because I am deemed to be in adequate housing. Like Mr. Nelson, I am living in the extension that was given to me when I was ten years old. I am 1,000th on the list for housing. The housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme does not pay enough for an apartment. One council gives this amount and others give another amount. It is so confusing. Landlords are also not keen to take HAP. It is hard.

This country disables us. That affects me mentally. My disability does not depress me. I am proud to be disabled. I am proud to be a woman. What makes me depressed is the way this country treats us, the way this country makes me feel. It is not the people but how it is run. It is how we are treated by our own Government. I am constantly having to have my mam speak for me because I an not listened to. I am treated like a child and I am not a child. I also had ten minutes when I was a kid in a school doing my examinations. That Niamh is having that same experience is ridiculous. I went to college for seven years because I did not have the right assistance in school. I did not go to college for seven years to get a degree to be treated like a child. I just want us to finally be listened to and for things to change, for us to have a more independent and equal life like everyone else.

Ms Niamh Kilcawley:

When it comes to the things we have been talking about today, they need to change. For these things to be changed will take co-operation. The word "impossible" is simply not acceptable. These things are not impossible. Nothing is impossible. If the Government listened, there would be so many other opportunities, not to give anybody an advantage but to help and to make life easier. I am 16. I am a teenager. I should not have to be campaigning for these things but I want to make a change, not for myself but for everybody who comes after me. If somebody had made that change already, then I would not have to do it. I do not want to have to do it but I am happy to do it if it helps others, not only myself. I am completely willing to co-operate with the Government to make these changes happen. Where it says it is impossible, I say it is possible. I want people to know and understand that it is not impossible. Nothing is impossible. If you want to make a change, you can do it and it will not take forever.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

In relation to what Niamh said, I am happy to put a paper together for the committee as to what I just covered. The State Examinations Commission emphasised that it does not want to give an advantage, but one thing Niamh did not mention is that her ten minutes had to incorporate her waiting for a scribe to write down her thoughts. Nobody has factored that in. Nobody has looked at this. I am like a scratched record, for those who remember 45 records. That is going back some time. The committee should get the State Examinations Commission in here, bring in Niamh and others who use Féach, and ask the questions instead of letting them hide away in Athlone. It was ten minutes for me in college as well. No one knows where the ten minutes comes from. Nobody knows the provenance of it.

I was talking to Ms Smith about the buses. There is a very simple solution there. With the Chair's indulgence, I would like to ask Saoirse to explain that when I finish. I am not going to take credit for her brilliant idea about how to solve the issue of accessibility on buses. It is easy-peasy. I was once in a forum with somebody from the NTA. I basically did a Jeremy Paxman. I kept on asking the same question about accessible services using that section. What I was told is that they would rather have inaccessible services than nothing at all in rural areas. That is a direct quote. I am not going to say who or where because that would not be fair to that person or the entity concerned.

Mr. Nelson mentioned one-bed apartments. With the greatest respect, that is not much good.

If a person needs a carer, he or she needs a two-bedroom apartment because obviously if it is a full-time carer, the need must be put where the person is going.

With regard to Irish Sign Language, ISL, interpretation, I will mention one thing in relation to audio description - get the new Media Commission in. At this moment, the requirement for RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2 is for ISL to have 5% per day. For RTÉ Junior it is 4%, for Virgin Media it is 2% and for Oireachtas TV it is 6%. I do not have the figures for audio description because as I told members previously, there is no signal.

I would implore members to remember one thing about the optional protocol. The committee has disabled persons organisations, DPOs, coming in here. Not everybody is a member of a DPO. The National Disability Authority, NDA, was asked what was needed for a DPO. Three people form a DPO. Not all of us are comfortable being involved in DPOs because if your face does not fit, you are excluded. AsIAm does not represent everybody in the autism community. It is not a DPO. People need to please get that through their skulls. It is one of the most frustrating things as an autistic person. It drives me absolutely berserk. People agree to go along, basically.

I was asked by Niamh's mother Sinéad to say that Niamh had to memorise her speech today because her level of Braille is so poor because of the lack of supports she has received. That is something that needs to be addressed. When the "Prime Time" programme went out on RTÉ and the studio piece went on, my four colleagues here will attest that the producers wanted to mic me up to go into the studio in the middle of it. I said "No" and that it would be car crash television, but everybody in the country would be cheering for me about what I was going to say.

Norma Foley needs to be brought in and asked very forcefully what the hell she is actually doing for the sector, and stop hiding behind Josepha Madigan and Anne Rabbitte because I do not see anything. She is the Minister for Education. The buck stops with her. That is it in a nutshell. I have to acknowledge one person, by the way, and that is Mr. Noel Byrne, one of Anne Rabbitte's team. On the Saturday before a bank holiday weekend, Noel Byrne was on to me at 8.45 a.m. and spent the guts of an hour making sure everything was right for Niamh as much as we could. That says something for Noel and also Adrian McLouglin. I am going to get killed for what I am going to say next, which is that I would not be able to do any of this but for the support of my wonderful wife, Eileen. Without Eileen, I would not be able to do a fraction of that. I am sorry, Eileen, I wanted to put that on the public record.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. Does Ms Smith want to answer that question on the buses?

Ms Saoirse Smith:

Like Padraic and Dylan, I have gone to London and what I found fantastic was that the middle doors open and the ramp comes out, which means that as a wheelchair user, I can just go straight on and turn. There is no fiddling around at the front worrying about the gap. It is so much easier. It is more streamlined and it is safer. Wheelchair users do not have to wait for people to get off the bus so they can get off the bus. They can do it at their own pace and in their own time. It was so much easier and so stress-free.

I will just reiterate that I spoke with representatives from Dublin Bus, and I have been asked by Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA, to look at what the new buses will look like. The major issue is getting in. The officials took some things on board. The gap in the aisle is wide but it might not be wide enough for Padraic or Dylan. That is the issue. I said they are not going to all be as wide and that they are going to be narrow. Again, that is a problem. If the doors are in the middle, it makes it so much easier. It was completely stress free.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

If the Chair does not mind, I will mention one other very important issue. There are little or no next stop audio or visual announcements for people who are visually impaired, blind or deaf on Bus Éireann and our provincial services. Dublin Bus has been rolling this out for years. Maybe this committee could write to the National Transport Authority, NTA, and ask what the timeline is for it and also whether it could identify why it has not recruited a disabled director, as it was supposed to have done as per the former Minister Shane Ross's time in office.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Leddin and Senator McGreehan are next. We will take those two and then come back to the witnesses.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I will be as brief as I can as I have to speak in the Dáil shortly. I have been truly blown away by what I have heard this morning from our guests. There are so many things we could get into and we could probably spend a full session on any one issue. We might discuss that afterwards. I thank the guests for coming in. I congratulate them on their appearance on "Prime Time", which I have not seen, but I will look back on. I congratulate Niamh on her excellent junior certificate results as well.

I will start by saying there was a level of despondency when Padraic spoke. He said that nothing changes and that he considered getting into politics in the past and then felt there was no point. As somebody who has a campaigning background, albeit in another area, I would say absolutely do get into politics. I would encourage him and everybody to consider it because notwithstanding that change is slow and difficult, it is only achieved by politics. I would urge him to reconsider his thoughts on that. Who knows? He might be on the other side of the room in a few years' time and he might have some more influence than he currently has to make the kinds of changes he passionately believes are necessary in our society. I encourage him to listen to Niamh when she said nothing is impossible. I would certainly agree. All change is difficult but it does start with campaigning and doing what he is doing today, and getting into politics is something that should be considered.

As I said, my background is in transport campaigning, believe it or not. There is, therefore, overlap here. I would certainly like to discuss in detail some of these issues with the witnesses, maybe offline, because I have some knowledge of this area. One particular side of transport, which might be seen as very much the preserve of people who are more able-bodied, is the delivery of walking and cycling infrastructure. I will tell a little story, however. I was travelling in the Netherlands a number of years ago with my partner and we ended up staying with a man who was severely disabled. He lived in an apartment that had universal access. I was quite amazed by his ability to get around his home given the disability he had. It somewhat opened my eyes to the needs of people like him. Then, as I was travelling around the Netherlands, I realised that I saw so many more people who have disabilities than I would see back home in Ireland and I wondered why that was. I started to realise that the walking and cycling infrastructure was helping the people with mobility disabilities particularly. When there are safe, connected, segregated networks, they work for the able-bodied community but they work for people who are in wheelchairs and use other mobility devices as well. What I do not hear in Ireland is the disability campaign groups or activists calling for this kind of infrastructure. There is much money available for it but I am not hearing their voices. That might be down to me, but their voices are incredibly important in this debate.

It is absolutely objectionable that Irish people are locked in their homes simply because there is not sufficient infrastructure in our towns and cities, and between them, to enable people to get around independently. That is absolutely a stain on our society. I would like the advocates to be heard more prominently in the debate. If they have anything to say on that particular issue in the time remaining, I would appreciate hearing it. It is linked to Deputy Tully's point that the employment rate of people with disabilities in Ireland is one of the lowest in Europe. There is a link between employment and mobility. If people cannot get around easily, it is much harder for them to go to work.

I was interested in the point Dylan made about the lack of accessible one-bedroom apartments. Is the issue specifically about availability of one-bedroom apartments? I acknowledge Ciarán's point that not everybody will necessarily need a one-bedroom home. People might have a carer, for example, which will require two bedrooms. Is the issue the size of apartments or the lack of universal access? My understanding was that the building regulations require all new buildings to have universal access. Will the witnesses clarify that point?

I have been listening intently but did not hear mention so far of dog fouling and how it impacts on people with wheelchairs. A young woman in Limerick contacted me about this and I did my best to help. Fundamentally, however, the local authority was not taking the issue of dog fouling on footpaths seriously. It was impacting hugely on this young woman's life. Her wheelchair would go through the excrement and it would get on the wheels and then on her hands. It was absolutely horrible that she had to endure this situation so frequently. My impression at the time was that the local authority simply was not taking the issue seriously and was not looking at it from the point of view of people in wheelchairs. I acknowledge Ciarán's call for the appointment of a director with specific disability expertise to the NTA. It is unconscionable that there is not a disability officer in every local authority in the country. If there were such people informing the discussions happening in the councils up and down the country, there would be much better decision-making by the executive and staff in local authorities and, on the political side, better debate by councillors.

I am happy to talk to any of our guests offline. Many issues have been raised today and we could have a full session on any one of them. I thank the witnesses.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their time. It would have been great to have them here last week when officials from the Departments of Social Protection, Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Education, and Enterprise, Trade and Employment were before the committee. I asked the officials a question about disability-proofing of their policies and the need to look at any decision through a lens of human rights and equality. They kind of pushed the question off to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, as the line lead for the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD. That is a massive problem and it was made clear in our engagement last week. We asked questions about how social welfare rules are perpetuating poverty. Again, we got no answers. In fact, we got responses but not answers.

I do not have many questions for the witnesses today. When they spoke about not being heard, everyone in this committee can empathise with that. We may not be able to empathise with the issues to the degree the witnesses experience them, but we understand their feeling of constantly not being heard. We are asking for people to look at things just a little differently. It is not necessarily about increased funds. Yes, funding is hugely important but it is really about making things better and looking at the reality of people's lives. I have listened to how Niamh has been flapped around by the Department. People are achieving things not because of, but despite of, their experience.

It has been fantastic to hear from the witnesses this morning. We should give the transcript of the discussion to the people who were here last week and the Department officials we see quite regularly. We are not being heard at this committee. We will make a pre-budget submission asking for things we have heard are needed and for a change in attitude. That is the change we are asking for the most. A change in attitude is free. We will ask that when we look at someone, we see him or her as a person and see his or her ability. We need to look at how a policy may be perpetuating poverty and misery. When people achieve things, in spite of all those barriers, we congratulate them and say "Well done". I am fed up of congratulating people for having to achieve things in spite of all the barriers. It is wrong. I applaud my friends and the people I love with disabilities just for doing well, as I would for anyone else.

I have heard many stories about the issues with Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus. A visually impaired person spoke to me about her experience of how a bus driver told her she did not look blind when she was asking for help. She was made crap of at the side of a country road when she asked whether it was the Dublin bus or some other bus. She did not want to get onto the wrong bus. There needs to be kindness and a change of attitude. Unfortunately, there has been nothing new at this meeting. We have heard it all previously, from the witnesses and from other advocates who have articulated many similar problems. The problem is the concreting of the issues and the attitudinal barrier in Departments at this time. To use a phrase from a television programme, "The computer says 'No'". Anybody who has watched "Little Britain" knows that is what we are getting.

As I said, I have no questions for the witnesses. I am continuously learning about the issues in order to reach an understanding. The witnesses should not have to come here today but I thank them for doing so. As Saoirse said, they should not have to keep making their case. I thank her for saying we are nice people but she and the other witnesses should not have to come here and tell us their life story, how they are battling and how the State is putting up barriers.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I invite the witnesses, starting with Ciarán, to give their closing comments on the contributions by Deputy Leddin and Senator McGreehan.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

I am so sorry that Deputy Leddin has gone. I saw the Chair look at my jaw and wondered if he was going to get a truck jack to put it back in place. Seriously, however, the message here for Deputy Leddin when he reads the transcript is that the NTA may have all this glorious access but it does not give a damn about the disabled community. For those who know Cork, where did the NTA hold one of its public meetings on BusConnects? It was in the Silver Springs convention centre. Those familiar with the area will know there is one bus stop and one bus route to the centre. The incline is huge so the meeting was not accessible. The NTA need to be called in here and asked what planet it is operating on. I am being very reserved in what I am saying.

There are a whole load of people in here and the different officers were mentioned. There is a biodiversity officer, a tree officer - you name it. I am open to correction but I think Deputy Thomas Gould tried to introduce an amendment to provide that there would be a disability officer in each local authority. That needs to be done as soon as possible.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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On that point, I forgot to mention something because I was getting more and more annoyed and lost my train of thought during my contribution. Mr. Delaney has raised a huge problem. As a councillor, I asked Louth County Council to give disability access training to those council staff who are responsible for public realm projects. It was to provide equality and equity training for front-line staff in our councils. That has not been done. Many of my Fianna Fáil colleagues pass motions at council meetings and they are not being heard. There is compulsory climate change training for our local authority staff, yet there is no compulsory training for disability awareness. There is now a public sector climate change mandate, yet there is no public sector disability proofing mandate. We raised this issue at a private meeting a couple of weeks ago and it is absolutely infuriating. We understand and we hear that message.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

Let me tell Senator McGreehan something better. I went into Cork City Council with a planning issue and I was abused from a height. It takes a lot to knock me but I was reduced to tears as a result of the way I was treated. The Cathaoirleach has known me for a long time and to reduce me to tears takes a lot. That is the quality of what we are doing.

Attitude was mentioned and I referred to people trending on Twitter. I will upset a hell of a lot of people but it has to be said. It is amazing how fast everybody jumped when legislation on hate speech was brought in. I have lots of friends in the LGBT community. Is it not amazing that training and handbooks on awareness can be brought into An Garda Síochána with the click of a finger but not when it comes to the disabled community?

When Jim Meade, the chief executive of Irish Rail, was brought before the transport committee he gave a brilliant answer. Deputy Feighan was there. Mr. Meade did the Tom Cruise thing of asking the committee to show him the money. He said if he was given the money, he would make his network accessible. Irish Rail has a report setting out how much it would cost to make its whole system accessible. Guess what. You can find money for everything. Irrespective of their political party, how about the next time Members stand up in the Seanad or Dáil they start fighting? It is a Twitter and social media-driven agenda.

We spoke about bringing people into the Houses. The last superintendent in here, Colm O'Rourke, was one of the most empowering people you could meet. A Member wanted me to come into the Oireachtas and replicate the role I had with John Dolan. In other words, it would be voluntary and I would be available to all Members. It would be the same role as I had. The Oireachtas authorities refused to issue me with a pass because they only issue them to full-time employees. I am willing to come up here and be a resource for everyone. I worked with Deputy Ellis. Many times I have gone up to the fourth and fifth floors for tea. I have gone up to the Fianna Fáil floors with former Deputy Margaret Murphy O'Mahony and other Members. I have spoken to Senator McGreehan a number of times. I am always available at the end of the phone for everyone. That is the disablist attitude. We just need to up our game. If people are coming in here and are willing to do that, Members should accept it because they will only get that from the voice of the lived community.

It was mentioned that officials from various Departments had appeared before the committee. I respectfully suggest that the committee invite them back after the summer recess. The five of us will also come back. The committee should also bring in Robert Watt from the HSE. I guarantee the members that while Mr. Watt may think he can carry on with certain issues, he will learn in a polite, respectful manner why we feel so frustrated and held back.

I will say something about the Cathaoirleach. He knows me and knows that I say it as I see it. He has been nothing but supportive, respectful and open. I am being honest when I say I am glad he is in the role he is in. When we mentioned this to him, he was open, as was the Leas-Chathaoirleach, and had no issue with listening to the voice of the individual person. However, I would ask him to stop bringing the same organisations before the committee. Bring in people who have lived experience. It would be an interesting exercise for the committee to check with all the different bodies because it would find it is always the same people in them. It is like a mafia. It is the same sort of circle.

I thank the committee members for their time. The main thing I have been asked to speak about is education, Féach and the issues that are there. Digital papers were supposed to be introduced for examinations. They have been withdrawn and a convoluted excuse was given. I ask each member to open examinations.ie, not on their phones but on a desktop or laptop. Senator McGreehan has the website open. What is the interface like?

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is all over the place. It is terrible.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

That is supposed to be accessible.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is even difficult for someone who is not-----

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

Deputy Canney made a comment about access. He referred to the accessibility of the Dáil Chamber. We went along with the programme. I do not need special accommodations to get around the Dáil Chamber, and nor does Ms Kilcawley. It is easily done but we need a message to go out. We will have local elections and European elections next year. I do not know what the scenario is regarding the European elections but there is no reason there should not be a quota for disabled people in the next election. Funding should be given. I suggest that after the recess we be invited to address Members of the Oireachtas in the audiovisual room, possibly over a few sessions, to let them know what our concerns are.

When it comes to the budget, I ask how many of members could survive on €220 per week?

How many of the committee members could survive on €220 per week? The €12 budget increase in the allowance was the first increase that we had got since FEMPI. I urge members to take a look at all the household stuff that has not been restored and the hidden budgets.

I have a final question that I ask members to check out for us, and it is on an issue that we have discussed. Can somebody check whether any bonuses have been given to managers in the HSE, or in any organisation, for underspending their budget when it comes to issuing appliances and supports for the disabled community?

Ms Niamh Kilcawley:

People need to face the fact that Ireland is not equal place for disabled people at the moment and for it to become equal then change needs to happen. We cannot wait 20 years or more for that to happen, or to even think about it happening. If there is co-operation, and if people prioritises the disabled community and its needs, then it could be done. I thank everybody who has supported me to get me to where I am. I wish to say thank you so much to my SNAs, my school, Mr. Ciarán Delaney, my parents and to everybody.

Ms Saoirse Smith:

I am extremely angry about what Deputy Leddin said because disabled people find cyclists to be a menace. Many friends of mine have been knocked down by cyclists who do not obey the rules of the road. I have nearly been knocked down by cyclists many times. The new cycle lanes that have been built around my area of Clontarf have caused major delays. The paths are all broken up which means that I cannot go to certain bus stops because they are built of tar. It is an absolute disgrace. It means that I cannot go around in Clontarf because it is too dangerous. The old paths have not been fixed in my area and I have nearly fallen on them. There are broken ramps and broken paths. I rely on my mother to bring me to the bus stop because it is too low. I have asked Dublin Bus to contact the council and to ask the council to fix the bus stop because it is too low and the ramp is very steep but Dublin Bus told me I need to contact the National Transport Authority, NTA, but the NTA will not do anything. Therefore, I must constantly rely on my mother who has epilepsy, which, unfortunately, and my mam will not mind me saying this, gives her tremors and dizzy spells. I rely on my mam, and I am not a light girl, to push me up a ramp or I have to rely on strangers, which I should not have to do. I am very ticked off by what Deputy Leddin said and I am trying to remain calm. Cyclists have yelled at me for using the cycle lane but that is the only way I can get around because the paths are bad. I have not had a good experience of them.

Deputy Leddin asked about buildings. When I have viewed apartments I have discovered that all of the cabinets are too high and not fully fitted. The doors in apartments are extremely heavy. They are fire doors and I nearly broke my arm when I tried to open one to leave the apartment. All of the apartments have baths. The only apartment that did not have a bath was a studio apartments, which was a box and I would not have been able to move in it even if I lived on my own. Apartments are not accessible.

I have used Bus Éireann a few times and refuse to do so now because the drivers are not fully trained to assist me. Bus drivers have told me that not all of them are trained and 24-hour's notice in advance is required. A driver did not clamp my chair properly so my chair bounced around and I hurt my back. Without a word of a lie, one driver told me that I was his first passenger with a disability in four years, which is shocking beyond belief.

When I brought up issues I have had with cycle lanes, access and so on with my councillor in Clontarf, she seemed more interested in the mess of recycling than anything else. It is all lip-service with nothing being done. I cannot think of her name at the moment because I am too riled up. Things really need to change.

I was glad to see members and everyone else here were very passionate about this. I am willing to come in here with my colleagues and talk to the representatives of various Departments, including the Department of Social Protection. I should not have to do that but I want to do these things because I do not want the next generation of people with disabilities to encounter what I am dealing with now. I do not want them having to go through any of this because it is unfair and cruel. It is discrimination, pure and simple.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

In regard to "Prime Time", what has not been mentioned is that neither Minister showed up. Why? It was because they could not, and did not want to try to, defend what was happening. What the Senator said was shocking, in that the committee is not listened to. It goes back to my point that there is no respect for people with disabilities. I will support any party if it means that people do not have to go through this in 20 years' time. When I did my leaving certificate examination in 2004, I got the same ten minutes. Nothing has been adapted and nothing has changed because the same people are in the same jobs and they do not understand that the world had moved on. I have been encouraged to enter politics and I am really thinking about doing. The fact the committee members said they are not listened to, and they are in the tent, says that the Government does not care. It does not because if the Government cared, it would listen to committee members.

People with disabilities do not need everything. They just need something and that is the important thing. We do not own this; we are all custodians of this. What we need to do is to leave it in a better place than what we found but right now, Ireland is failing fundamentally and completely to do that. If the Opposition and Government committee members are being ignored and that they hear this week in, week out, I will happily come back in with Mr. Delaney to another meeting of this committee and answer those questions. I would love to appear in front of the heads of Departments because it is a lot more difficult to dodge a question when there is a face in front of you of a person who is being impacted by a situation. It is much easier dealing with committee members because they are all nice people, as Ms Smith said. It is easier for the heads of Departments to dodge the questions of committee members than ours because there is a face in front of that question to which they must defend the cut. That is part of the problem. The heads of Departments are so used to coming in and dodging a question because members all have faces but they are not the ones who are impacted by it. I will happily come in and work with anybody because my mantra is that if I can leave it in a better position than I found it, I have done a good job as nobody else in ten, 15 or 20 years' time will have to go through, or battle against, what we have experienced.

Let us make Ireland a more accessible State that has equal opportunity and equality for disabled people. Let us not keep doing this every year, and every week for the committee members, because if that is happening and nothing moves on, it is a pointless conversation. We really need to examine how we do business as a country and a Government but let us leave everything in a better position than we found it.

Mr. Dylan Nelson:

Like Mr. Delaney and Ms Smith, I am annoyed that Deputy Leddin has gone because his attitude is that it should be in the policy that we should provide it. That is a clueless way of putting it. I know what is in the policy as I have read it. If I cannot find the policy, I ring Mr. Delaney and ask him to find the policy for me. I have memorised the housing policy and know the Government is supposed to provide access to all homes. There are two-bedroom and one-bedroom apartments. I applied for a one-bedroom apartment because I knew I would not get a two-bedroom apartment. I knew the powers that be would dismiss my application out of hand if I applied for a two-bedroom apartment. I was told to apply for a one-bedroom apartment even though a two-bedroom apartment would be better but I have absolutely no hope of getting one.

We have issues around accessibility. I know what is in the policy. It should be provided because it is in the policy but nobody is enforcing the policy and nobody cares.

The people building these homes know they will not be penalised for not providing it. In a pub recently, I asked the barman for directions to the disabled toilet and he handed me a plastic pint glass and said "There you go". I had to sit in the middle of the men's toilet, with my trousers down, trying to go to the bathroom because the policies around disabled toilets and access were not enforced.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

These are the Houses of Parliament of the Republic of Ireland and there is no changing room. There is a huge atrium up there that could be reduced in size to facilitate a changing room. Out of courtesy to Deputy Feighan, I want to say to open the Bill as a Microsoft Word document and search for the term "disability" to save time. I guarantee that he will see how few times it is mentioned.

Mr. Padraic Moran:

The Green Party is doing loads of great things about transport and so on, but where is its disabled transport policy? It is not there. There is a party in government that is advocating for all this change to make the world better. It will be better for able-bodied people but not for disabled people, and that is a fundamental problem. The Green Party is in government and its members are legislators. It is making transport more inaccessible for a huge proportion of our citizens. It thinks that is okay. We might be seen as a bigger voting threat now because there are more of us but in the past we were not seen as that and that is a major problem. Mr. Delaney gave me a statistic to the effect that wheelchair taxis will not be fully accessible until 2060.

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

Between 2040 and 2060 is when it is expected that we will have fully accessible wheelchair taxis in this State. They were told that it was a resource issue. It is not a resource issue because they contacted the company in the UK about the matter. Believe it or not, that company is reducing the number of staff. It is a situation of pure laziness again. When the taxi industry was privatised back in the day when there were 206 taxis in Cork, overnight you were going along. It is simple. If there is a line in the sand, you do it.

On what Mr. Nelson said, it just dawned on me that the legislation he highlighted refers to the public transport regulations from 2019. That is when the last update happened. It could have been done for wheelchairs. On the wheelchair spaces, the bus drivers cannot do anything about it because they do not have the support. Believe it or not, two drivers in Athlone's Bus Éireann depot were disciplined, subject to a disciplinary pre-hearing, because they refused to take out a bus that was inaccessible when they knew that there was going to be a wheelchair passenger on the route. There was a bus parked there. It is one of the new ones. Dermot O'Leary from the National Bus and Rail Union, NBRU, can supply the committee with the details and the NBRU has an accessibility committee which I am a member of so it might be of interest to the committee to bring it in as well. No word of a lie, those drivers got disciplined because they wanted to bring out the wheelchair accessible bus for a passenger who has been travelling on the service for the past nine years in order that the person could get into work.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Delaney might forward that information on Bus Éireann to us. The more information we have, the stronger we can be in dealing with it. I thank Mr. Delaney, Ms Kilcawley, Ms Smith, Mr. Moran and Mr. Nelson for their powerful testimony. I mention their role in appearing on "Prime Time" and highlighting the case. They challenged us this morning in order that we can move the challenge on to the next level. The word "attitude" was mentioned by members. That goes right across the system, whether it is with Bus Éireann, the Departments, the officials or whomever is dealing with it. The attitude to enable people to live life to the full is needed, and that is what we have to do. Time out of number at this committee we have spoken about secondary benefits like medical cards and so forth. We will continue to do that.

Again, I thank the witnesses for their honesty and forthrightness. We will continue to engage with them. There are so many groups and organisations. If we could all have them facing in the same direction in order to try to advance change within our society, it would be for the best. Does the dog want to contribute?

Mr. Ciar?n Delaney:

The dog did not hear her name being mentioned so she started wondering why she was not mentioned.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I thank them for giving evidence of their life experience. I ask them to continue to do so because, collectively, that is the only way we will effect change. I thank the members for the constant engagement because it is only with the strength of the members that we can go on to advance change. I thank the committee team as well. They are fantastic.