Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our guests are all very welcome. I hope they have had an opportunity to settle in and find their spaces here. They are all very welcome to Leinster House, including this committee room, where we are really looking forward to hearing from them. We have received apologies from Deputy Cassells. I am delighted to welcome Deputy Ó Snodaigh, who is attending today.

The committee is meeting today in two separate sessions to examine the development of local and community arts.

The first session has been convened being with representatives from Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics, Independent Living Movement Ireland, the National Disability Authority, Arts and Health Coordinators Ireland and Age and Opportunity. We will focus on arts and disability health and older people. In our second session we will continue our examination of this topic, focusing on arts and cultural diversity. We will hear from the Irish Traveller Movement, the Irish Network against Racism Pavee Point and the Centre for Creative Practices.

Are the minutes from the meeting of 4 May agreed? Agreed. I presume there are no matters arising.

As outlined, this session will focus on arts and disability, help and old people. I warmly welcome our guests. I welcome from Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics, Ms Emilie Conway, founder, and Mr. Red Keane, member; from the Independent Living Movement Ireland, Ms Paula Soraghan, voice community development worker, and Mr. Peter Kearns; DPO development officer; from the National Disability Authority, Dr. Aideen Hartney, director; from Arts and Health Coordinators Ireland, Ms Gráinne Hope, chair, and Ms Fiona Smith, deputy chair; and from Age and Opportunity, Dr. Tara Byrne, arts programme manager and Bealtaine Festival artistic director, and Ms Catherine Marshall, chair of the arts advisory committee.

The format of the meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes each. We will of course will give latitude where it is required. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its web page. The opening statements will be followed by questions from committee members.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I must explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make her or him identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to the constitutional requirement. Therefore, any members who attempt to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I ask Ms Emilie Conway, on behalf of Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics, to speak first.

Ms Emilie Conway:

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee today. As my family is from Mayo, I will first quote some lines by Raifteirí, the Mayo poet:

Mise Raifteirí an file,

Lán dóchas is grá,

Le súile gan solas,

Le ciúnas gan chrá...

Féach anois mé

Mo dhroim le balla,

Ag seinm ceoil

Do phócaí folmha.

That sets the tone and the scene of the reality that faces disabled artists or people with artistic potential who go on to dare to develop that because supports are withdrawn. As we know from our art history, what Ireland is, what it has become, our culture and who we are have been dependent on patronage. It is very interesting to see throughout history what happened where that patronage failed. If, for example, Harriet Weaver had not assisted James Joyce with his eye operations, would we have Ulysses? However, this is actually what the State does right now to disabled artists; it removes their disability supports.

It was a culmination of this that led to the foundation of Disabled Artists, Disabled Academics, DADA, when, in 2020, we were pressured into growing due to the lack of representation of our voice and our experience as disabled artists. We are a grassroots, voluntary, disability-led movement which is completely unfunded. Our mission is to achieve greater equity for disabled artists by challenging and offering solutions to the barriers to our full participation, integration and contribution to the arts, culture and education, in particular, and by extension to the economy and the whole of Irish society in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD.

My summary will mostly refer to our submission from 27 January on this topic. I will briefly outline the barriers. The barriers are the physical, psychological, sensory, emotional, energetic and intellectual limitations of our disabilities which are real and reduce earning power, productivity and the kind of work we can do in a competitively, open, ableist market. The barriers are also attitudinal where we have ableism. Non-disabled people stereotype and make assumptions about what disabled people can do, our capability and our potential.

They are physical and environmental, such as the inaccessibility of many spaces. This has a particular effect in the arts because, as we know, developing a craft depends greatly on being able to access what I call incubator spaces where the pressure is low and people can develop their work without significant financial outlay. Many of these places are not accessible. There is also a very low rate of accessible formats, which is also physical and environmental. There are also the systemic barriers, as I referred to at the start with Raifteirí - the supports are withdrawn for someone who earns over €165 a week. That money, of course, may come from earning a competitive award from the Arts Council, a commission or bursary. It is a completely disabling structure for artistic disabled people.

What we need is full implementation of the UNCRPD which would see disabled artists supported and the playing field levelled. We are not looking for a handout we are looking for a hand up, rather than being systemically and systematically thwarted in our self-determination for daring to develop our talents and contribute to our culture and society. Needless to say, if all of this were changed, it would of course benefit older people because what is done for disabled people will open the door for older people to continue their work.

To implement the UNCRPD, we have specific recommendations, with disabled artists at the core of them. I have a model of integration which has three things, the first of which is representation of disabled artists. We need documentation consistently throughout the process of what is working and what is not working to build some resources. We also need support. Having a disability is a full-time job. Advocating is a full-time job. Being an artist is a full-time job and therefore we need additional support.

That model of integration, representation, documentation and support, RDS, should be applied to the formation of a task force. The Minister has frequently made use of task forces and they work. Regrettably the task force that recommended the basic income had no representation by disabled artists. The task force on the night-time economy also has no representation of disabled people. Most disabled artists could not avail of the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, scheme because people on disability allowance were not eligible. During the pandemic disabled people not only lost medical supports but also got no support for the pandemic or for loss of work. That is why the task force must have representation by disabled creative people within the arts.

The other recommendation is for what I am calling a graded system of access declaration whereby similar to the way in which restaurants get a number of Michelin stars according to the standards of their food and restaurant, we would have stars according to the access available. This could be anything from the most basic accessible toilets to whether disabled people are actually working in the venue. Disabled people could then make informed choices about what venues we attend and do not.

This system of access declaration would also inspire venues and cultural institutions to up their access game.

Another recommendation is to make the process and structure of applying for arts funding responsive to the real access needs of disabled artists and arts workers. At present, the formats with which one can apply for grants and awards are quite restricted. They need to be broadened out to respect the UNCRPD. There should be a rolling deadline because if someone has a flare-up of his or her illness, he or she will miss that particular round and opportunity and will potentially lose his or her place in his or her career. We need a rolling deadline and a greater degree of accessible formats.

Another recommendation is for a disabled artists' fund. The Department of Social Protection withdraws the supports we crucially need for our disabilities and we then have to create artwork without them. I am asking this Department to set up a disabled artists' fund. For example, I spent nearly €2,000 on vision aids in March, which I do not have. We need a disabled artists' fund to fund things like that. This fund could also support us when, due to our illnesses, we cannot work. Again, if you lose your disability allowance, or whatever, currently present you are on your own and if you lose a gig you are on your own. We need to acknowledge that lack.

Based on the seriousness and weight of these unmet needs, we are asking this committee to consistently make the case to Government for changes to dismantle these systemic, environmental, physical and attitudinal barriers. The attitudinal barrier is broken down by our being integrated into the absolute, thoroughgoing, rigorous, consultative, integrated process of decision-making. We want to work together with members and I am very sad to say so far that is not happening in any way. It is poignant we are here today because today the British Council launches its follow-up to the on the move report, which is a transnational discovery of the progress in disability arts. At the core of that is a call for greater integration and a greater strength of policy to support disabled artists. I thank the committee.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Conway for that eloquent, detailed and comprehensive presentation. Does Mr. Keane wish to add to that?

Mr. Red Keane:

I can give my statement if the Cathaoirleach wishes. It follows on.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Red Keane:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak here. I am the founder of Jazz Ireland and will be speaking about my experience as a disabled arts worker and am happy to take any questions at the end. Jazz Ireland was a project I created with the primary focus of supporting the Irish jazz scene and helping it grow. For seven years I worked tirelessly on the project without any funding and determined to make a difference. I built the website myself and maintained and developed it over the years. I am proud of what I accomplished and grateful for the opportunities it provided. I got to work with some incredible projects and amazing people, some of whom are now lifelong friends.

Jazz Ireland is the only dedicated national listings website for Irish jazz. It promoted 5,000 events in over 500 venues across Ireland. There were 97 podcast episodes and just under 3,000 newsletter subscribers, as well thousands of social media followers. It reached 139,000 website visitors from five continents and more than 40 different countries around the world. Jazz Ireland played a vital role in promoting Irish Jazz for musicians, venues, fans, organisations and researchers, as well as being a representative body for Irish jazz overseas.

On 1 May, I issued a statement of closure in which I explained the systemic barriers I face as a disabled person and how I could not continue anymore. In the three weeks since that announcement I have received messages of support from all over the world. At the very least, I can now put my arms around my work and call it a success. I am unable to apply for funding without penalties to my disability supports. The absence of funding has limited my professional growth and development. It has kept me on the fringes of a community I have supported for seven years and that barrier alone has hindered the realisation of my full potential. I am but one example of the untapped talent that will now remain dormant due to the lack of support and resources. If given the necessary assistance, I could have created employment opportunities for myself and others and contributed not only to the arts but to society as a whole. I stand before the committee today not to inspire members with tales of resilience, but to demand change. I implore members to reassess the rules and regulations that perpetuate systemic barriers for disabled artists. We need members commitment and tangible support, so I ask them to please listen to DADA's recommendations. I am grateful for the time.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Keane so much; it is very much appreciated. We will now hear from Ms Soraghan and Mr. Kearns of ILMI.

Ms Paula Soraghan:

I thank the Chair. Independent Living Movement Ireland is a cross-impairment national disabled persons' organisation. Our vision is an Ireland where disabled persons have freedom, choice and control over all aspects of their lives and can fully participate in an inclusive society as equals. Central to the way we work is to ensure policy decisions that impact on the lives of disabled people be directly informed by those whose lives are directly affected. Our philosophy can be summed up as "Nothing about us without us!" and "Rights not charity". Our vision is an Ireland where disabled persons have freedom, choice and control over all aspects of their lives and can fully participate in an inclusive society as equals.

ILMI, as a grassroots DPO, has many artists in its membership. As a DPO we have created spaces and workshops locally and nationally in discussing and developing disability arts. Most recently, we have worked with the No Magic Pill production to provide a strong disability equality lens to the development of this groundbreaking drama, which has disabled actors at the forefront of a play about disabled lives. ILMI as an organisation was directly involved in the multiple award-winning play No Magic Pill, which broke new ground in disability arts in Ireland. ILMI want to speak to this committee about the development of local and community arts not only from the perspective of disabled people as audience members, but as art creators, producers, directors and technical crew. ILMI also work from the arts movement concept of disability art, which is art made by disabled artists which reflects the lived experience of disability.

At its core, the UNCRPD is framed through an understanding of disability that is known as the social model of disability. From ILMI’s perspective, it is vital that there is a clear and full understanding of what the social model of disability is and how it should inform future discussions on policy development and improvement and policy implementation, including discussions on developing and supporting local and community art. The social model looks at how society is structured and how it disables people. It is not based on a person’s impairment, but focused on the barriers that exist in terms of attitudes, policy development, access or lack of supports that prevent people from participating in society as equals with choice and control over their own lives. In this model it is society that disables people from achieving their hopes and dreams, not a person’s impairment. The social model informs all aspects of the work of ILMI. Where disabled people are referred to in our presentation to the committee, this should be understood to include all disabled people, including those with learning difficulties, people experiencing emotional distress and physical and sensory impairments.

Ireland ratified the UNCRPD in 2018 and under this there are a number of articles with relevance to the development of local community arts, specifically Article 30 which concerns "Participation in cultural life, recreation, leisure and sport". Article 30 relates to the disabled people accessing arts and culture, but also to removing barriers to the participation of disabled artists in the creation of art and management of local arts centres. ILMI believes any development of policy relating to the inclusion of disabled people in local and community arts needs to start with an understanding of the social model of disability by national, regional and local arts mainstream resources.

In framing disability as how attitudes, systems, legislation and policies disable the participation of people with impairments, we can begin to design systems that remove these disabling barriers and look to invest in structures and supports that promote effective cultural inclusion for and with disabled people - no arts about us without us. Through a social-model lens and informed by the UNCRPD, ILMI as a cross-impairment DPO welcomes the opportunity to inform discussions of community and local arts from a disability equality perspective. I will now pass over to my colleague, Mr. Kearns, who will talk about the role of DPOs in the development of local art strategies.

Mr. Peter Kearns:

A DPO is a disabled persons' organisation. Unlike disability service providers, it is led by and for disabled people.

DPOs work on a cross-impairment basis with disabled youth and adults. DPOs are about bringing disabled people collectively together to bring about a more inclusive, equal society through community development approaches. DPOs are social inclusion and collective spaces for disabled people, informed through an equality, a human rights and, especially, a social model and lens of disability. DPOs should be the voice of disabled people such that statutory, non-statutory, media, cultural, sporting, economic, employment and social inclusion dialogues will reach directly out to local DPOs as the voice of disabled people.

At their core, an autonomous collective space for disabled people is best placed to inform strategic decisions relating to the inclusion of disabled people. DPOs are also informed by the importance of social education through art and the need for disabled artists to be actively involved in developing local arts spaces.

This is consistent with Article 30 of the UNCRPD, as my colleague, Ms Soraghan, said. That article calls on state parties to take appropriate steps to ensure that disabled people "have the opportunity to develop and utilize their creative, artistic and intellectual potential, not only for their own benefit, but also for the enrichment of society". In the development of a local and community arts programme, policy and funding decisions on disability arts need to be led by discussions with DPOs locally and nationally. ILMI, through our work, whether our Department of Rural and Community Development-funded virtual online inclusive community empowerment, VOICE, project or the work we are doing in the cross-Border region, is supporting the emergence of autonomous, collective spaces to develop organic DPOs to inform local policy and work to co-create with statutory bodies to build inclusive, equal systems of service delivery.

There is a lack of disabled people involved in all aspects of local and community arts. That is not just in respect of disabled artists but also as disabled people actively involved in the management and direction of community spaces that host art events and in the design and delivery of productions. Any discussion on community and local arts needs to work with DPOs locally and nationally to develop access routes for disabled people interested in arts production to ensure the involvement of disabled people in creating disability arts.

As regards policy development and best practice in community arts, ILMI feels that any disabled roles must be played by disabled actors, especially at a local level. That would lead to disabled people being more socially included in their communities through mainstream professional and community arts groups. There is now best practice as regards effective access for all to arts and cultural process and product with dialogue and artistic engagements with local and national DPOs.

The UNCRPD calls on state parties to take "all appropriate measures" to ensure that disabled people can enjoy access to cultural materials in accessible formats. It is imperative that local arts officers, the Arts Council and local community arts groups work with DPOs to avail of disability equality training. Disability equality training is led by disabled people and informed by the social model of disability. Disability equality training can inform the development of best practice as to how community arts groups can engage with disabled people and build processes to ensure disabled people can access arts locally in their communities as creators, participants and consumers.

Lessons on the provision of access for disabled people to attend local and community arts can be learnt from the production of No Magic Pillas a process for learning not only how to promote inclusion of disabled actors but also how best to make a drama performance accessible for disabled people attending their local community arts space.

Like Ms Soraghan, I thank the committee for listening. We look forward to members' follow-up questions.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Kearns and Ms Soraghan for those comprehensive statements. I call Dr. Aideen Hartney, on behalf of the NDA, to make her opening statement.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

The National Disability Authority thank the Chair and the members of the committee for the opportunity to present on this topic. The authority provides independent and evidence-informed advice to the Government on policy and practice relevant to the lives of disabled people. We also incorporate a centre for excellence in universal design, promoting the design of physical and digital environments in order that they can be accessed, understood and used by everyone, regardless of age, size, ability or disability.

Census 2016 figures indicate that disabled people make up 13.5% of the population, with census 2022 figures likely to show an increase. While we do not have an accurate figure for the number of disabled artists in Ireland, the Arts Council 2020 report on its awards indicates that less than 7% of those awards went to artists who declared a disability.

The NDA is aware from its work that some of the key barriers to attending artistic events relate to accessibility. In a 2022 survey we commissioned on well-being and social inclusion, 27% of people with a disability found visiting a cinema, theatre or cultural centre somewhat or very difficult, compared with 12% of people without a disability. Part M of the building regulations sets out minimum provisions for the access and use of buildings and requires that new buildings are accessible and usable by people with disabilities. We advise, therefore, that to facilitate participation in artistic and cultural activities, those responsible for venues should work to increase their accessibility and, where possible, to move beyond minimum compliance. Improvements will benefit not only disabled people but also older persons and families with young children. Where local authorities have the opportunity to make the approaches to arts and cultural venues accessible, they should do so and, where possible, those venues should be located close to accessible public transport hubs. Accessibility encompasses not only the physical premises in which an event takes place but also pre-event information and booking processes. Websites for events or venues should be accessible to all users, and electronic terminals for ticketing should be designed and procured with accessibility in mind. That will shortly become mandatory on transposition of the European Accessibility Act into Irish legislation. We advise that there are a number of ways in which artistic performances can be made more accessible, including blended or streamed performances, audio description, ISL translation and provision of induction loop systems, captioning or relaxed performances for those with sensory difficulties.

We also advise that consideration be given to ways in which disabled people wishing to make a career in the arts can be supported. At present, there are barriers in terms of income thresholds that can mean that disabled artists risk losing some or all of their State supports if they earn in excess of a certain amount. We heard about that earlier. Research also shows that having a disability can generate additional costs of living and, therefore, we advise that the earnings disregard for people on disability allowances is kept under regular review.

During 2023, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth will lead the development of a UNCRPD implementation strategy. That strategy will set out a series of commitments for all Departments to ensure progressive realisation of the goals of the convention. Article 30 commits states to taking all appropriate measures to ensure that disabled people enjoy access to cultural materials and activities and have the opportunity to participate as artists. The NDA advises the importance of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media considering priority areas for attention within its remit, informed by engagement with disabled people and their representative organisations, as well as engaging constructively with other Departments and agencies relevant to improving access to the arts at local level, in order that clear goals can be committed to and delivered under the forthcoming strategy.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Hartney. We will move now to Ms Gráinne Hope on behalf of Arts + Health Co-ordinators Ireland. At this point I have another commitment that coincides with this meeting. I have to excuse myself for half an hour. Senator Malcolm Byrne will take the Chair while I am absent, if there are no objections from colleagues. I hope to be back to hear the remaining questions and answers. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise if the witnesses see a vote sign coming up on the screen. We are moving on to Ms Hope on behalf of Arts and Health Co-ordinators Ireland, AHCI.

Ms Gr?inne Hope:

AHCI thanks the committee for the invitation to join it today. AHCI is 20 years in existence this year and is a national voluntary network of arts and health managers and co-ordinators. We work across Ireland in a range of health and community contexts, often in collaboration with national and local government organisations. We come together to support the sector, collaborating across our expertise and leading on a range of innovative projects to support and benefit those we work with and for.

With regard to the topic today, our network commissioned an in-depth mapping of arts and health activity across Ireland in 2019. One of the key findings of the report was the significant role of local and community arts, health sectors and local government in the funding, development and delivery of arts and health projects and programmes across Ireland.

Arts and health is a field of professional practice that embraces all art forms and healthcare contexts. Programmes are delivered through partnerships between health service providers, arts organisations and professional artists specifically trained with additional skills to work in healthcare settings. Improving quality of life and cultural access in these settings is at the heart of arts and health work.

It is also important to state that arts and health is not arts therapy, nor is it an arts experience simply relocated from a traditional art space such as a gallery, concert hall or theatre into a healthcare setting. Arts and health is a field of professional practice that brings together the skills and priorities of both arts and health professionals. In best practice, it has arts and health expertise at its core with clear artistic vision, goal and outcomes and is delivered by paid professional arts and health artists.

The arts and health sector is growing in Ireland and AHCI recognises and welcomes recent significant developments, including the formation of the RENEW working group, an interdisciplinary government collaboration, the extension of the creative Ireland programme and the appointment of an HSE arts and health project lead.

However, there are still a number of key challenges, including the lack of an up-to-date national policy for arts and health, the inclusion of a framework for implementing and delivering arts and health in local government policies, and inadequate long-term funding and inconsistent governance arrangements. Most significant is the need for ongoing arts and health expertise and leadership within these structures to better support best practice and standards.

Our knowledge, leadership and expertise, as it relates to arts and health and local and community arts, enables us to contribute to this conversation and offer some important recommendations to the committee today. These include: a call to relevant state bodies and agencies to commit to prioritising and improving policy frameworks that support arts and health at national and local government levels, including updating the Arts Council of Ireland’s arts and health policy; a call for the inclusion of arts and health professionals as key experts in the design and development of arts and health policy and programmes both nationally and locally; and a call to improve sustainability and standards for the sector through greater investment and better resourcing for education and training in the field of arts and health, including good conditions and fair pay for artists.

It is the assertion of AHCI that local and community arts and the role of local government in the process are, and should continue to be, vital partners and collaborators in the design and delivery of excellent arts and health practices across Ireland. It is also our assertion that the continued success of these valuable collaborations is dependent on a well-resourced, well-funded sector that is supported by excellent policy frameworks. We ask the committee to support the implementation of our recommendations.

In closing, we ask members to consider holding a future meeting of the committee on arts and health with key Government stakeholders from both arts and health agencies. We would welcome an opportunity to contribute to this discussion.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our final speaker before we go to questions and answers is Dr. Byrne on behalf of Age & Opportunity.

Dr. Tara Byrne:

I thank members for the opportunity to discuss the important topic of arts and older people. Age & Opportunity’s arts programme focuses on older people’s artistic creativity and creative potential and supports the meaningful participation and representation of older people in cultural and creative life. Age & Opportunity is the national quality of life organisation for older people, just in case a reminder needs to be given.

Our arts programme is anchored in the annual Bealtaine Festival. I hope members have seen this pamphlet. It is on all month; it is on at the moment. It celebrates the arts and creativity as we age. The programme also includes a year-round resource and development set of initiatives that support older artists and arts participants and enable arts organisations to work more effectively with older people.

Like everyone present, our submission rests on access and equity issues regarding the arts and older people, specifically. As well as our own evidence and experience, which is quite substantial, there is growing national and a significant body of international research that shows the social and health benefits of engaging with the arts. This is distinct from what might be called the intrinsic or primary benefits of the arts, which might be a sense of self-expression, self-actualisation, deep flow, enjoyment and so on. Cultural access, of which the arts is a part, is not just a "nice to have" participation in the cultural life of the community; it is a human right under many international conventions and treaties to which Ireland has committed and which it is directed to respect, protect and fulfil. The State is a duty-bearer to all its citizens in this regard.

Arts access includes provision for older people in harder to reach residential and community care and social settings such as nursing homes, home care and day care centres and, therefore, we will focus our contribution to the discussion on access to the arts for these citizens in particular. What is the position regarding access for people living in those settings? Although many nursing homes and only some day care centres have activity co-ordinators, there is no onus on the everyday provision of arts activities in particular or at all, or the involvement of professional or trained artists, which my colleagues mentioned. That is absolutely critical to a quality experience. In addition, and my colleague on the left have talked to this, disabled people over the age of 65, that is, older disabled people, are not eligible for personal assistance, which curtails their own creativity, potential ability to earn and access to the arts.

The potential acquiring of age-related disabilities in later life more generally also makes physical access to arts venues in cities and towns difficult for all cohorts of older people. In addition, and from a broader cultural perspective, there are psychosocial access issues that relate to the lack of historical arts education at school. This is for people mostly born in the first half of the 20th century when there was almost no arts education at all. This means that many older people feel that the arts are unfamiliar and potentially elitist and, thus, not for them. All of these of course exist in respect of people who live today and have contemporary education, but particularly for those older people.

These factors mean that many older people live out the last third or even the second half of their lives without any, or a poor standard, of arts access and engagement. There are enormous benefits of the arts and, in particular, meaningful activity to identity and personhood for those living in care settings is important. We know that is absolutely critical that continues when one moves from a familiar family-surrounded home situation to an unfamiliar situation in a setting. Identity is absolutely critical to that. The lack of arts access represents a significant cultural loss to older Irish citizens but also a loss to the taxpayer, who supports the health service, and a consequent deficit to the State. If we look at these instrumentally, there are savings, arguably, to be made to the health service in terms of access to the arts bringing down healthcare costs.

What actions are needed? Access to the arts and culture for older people living in these harder to reach situations is currently not protected in legislation, policy or even ongoing funding programmes. As long as this is the case, these rights will not be realised and the State will fail its older citizens. The kind of arts activity that people generally have in nursing homes and day care centres is completely ad hoc, usually unprofessional and very rare. There is a need for a transparent State policy framework that charges all the duty-bearers - the Arts Council, the HSE, local government and care settings, including home care - to provide everyday access to the arts for all older people, regardless of where they live and what disabilities they might have acquired.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for their statements and their work. I wish Age & Opportunity the best of luck with the Bealtaine Festival as well.

We have run a bit over time. We have approximately 20 minutes left for questions and answers.

There are four-minute time slots. I will be a little generous but I ask members to bear the time in mind. It is four minutes for questions and answers. I am not going to be rude but I want to let everybody in. I call Deputy Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to be brief. I will ask my questions and hopefully we can get an answer in that slim time slot. I would first raise the issue of the basic income for the arts scheme. Just before it was rolled out, the Minister gave a promise that she would work closely with the Minister for Social Protection to ensure disabled artists could participate. At the time I do not think any reassurance was given that people could hold onto their disability supports and would not lose them or any other basic supports. There was a case recently where someone had availed of the scheme and was on jobseeker's allowance. They had been in receipt of both for a while and were told several months later that they owed €3,000 and were forced to pay that back. They are paying that back now through their basic income scheme. They have less income now than they ever had. Are there similar cases for artists with disabilities? Were artists in general wary of applying for it in case they lost their supports? Is the scheme fit for purpose in its current format? I think I know the answer to that but I just want to hear it from the witnesses so the Minister will hear it as well. That is for Mr. Keane and Ms Conway and maybe Dr. Hartney.

Ms Soraghan and Mr. Kearns made reference to the UNCRPD. I am curious about the issues they highlighted today. Do they believe the Government has fallen way short of delivering on what it signed up to in 2018, particularly in relation to policy areas around access and participation in local community arts etc.? I ask them to outline some of that for us.

Dr. Byrne spoke about nursing homes and day care centres and the fact that there is no onus on activity co-ordinators to provide everyday provision for arts activities. I know there has to be some protection in legislation. Have the witnesses or anyone else been in touch with the HSE or Nursing Homes Ireland, or other nursing home groups? They have the activities scheduled every week. They charge residents additional charges for those activities and they already have their budget there. Have the witnesses got a sense of why they do not actually broaden it out and provide additional activities in arts? What is the reluctance there when they have the budget and residents have paid additional money for it? Why do they not broaden it out for people's enjoyment? Sometimes you might see a busted box of a jigsaw opened and thrown on the table in a nursing home setting-----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not mean to be rude and interrupt but I am conscious of time so we can get everybody in. I ask the witnesses to give brief answers.

Ms Emilie Conway:

There are huge problems with the basic income scheme. I would source that to the task force, which was devoid of disabled artists or disabled people working in the arts to inform the creation of the scheme. We raised this with the Minister. We got a meeting pretty much after it was a done deal. We have experience with other disabled artists who have had their disability allowance cut. They are now afraid to do any work at all or apply for any grants because if it is cut more they will be in more trouble and could risk losing their medical card. There is also a problem with the research that has been issued. It does not allow disabled artists to share this experience. It is not structured in a way that disabled artists can actually show the additional stress and medical problems they are having as a result of having gotten the basic income scheme. There is no excuse for this. We raised this at a stakeholder meeting in December 2021 and something could have been set up with the Department of Social Protection so that any disabled artist would be put through a streamlined process. Instead, every disabled artist is having an individual harrowing experience. I also know of people who have had staff from the Department of Social Protection come to their house and literally rifle through their drawers because they got the basic income scheme. As I said, we had a meeting with the Minister in September and commitments were made that were not followed up on. There has been no consistency and no follow-ups at all. We are very disappointed about that.

Mr. Peter Kearns:

I thank the Deputy for the question. Regarding the UNCRPD, I actually worked on the UN convention 20 years ago in New York, on the arts and DPOs. It might be better to show the Deputy a good example of the State working with local DPOs. I live in Sligo so we work with the local authority. There is a Sligo DPO and they are working with the county council to inform its culture and diversity programme. I am chairperson of the Glens Centre in Leitrim and we have disabled acts through the whole programme not just for disabled people but right throughout the whole programme of the arts centre. I am not saying there should be special arts programme but to have disability arts running through the whole programme of the arts centre. There are examples around the UNCRPD, especially going back to Article 4.3, which says states should engage with DPOs both locally and nationally. We have some good examples of that. In terms of my big film, I was the dramatist, actor and executive producer on that for six years. When it worked with the Arts Council, ILMI had a really positive experience, which showed how a DPO could not only engage the actors we worked with but also, more important, the cultural and aesthetic area of representation of impairment. We have disabled actors on stage. I worked with the Abbey Theatre 20 years ago and we had no disabled actors. We had ten plays that looked at disability but no disabled actors or writers. We have shown the intended power of the collective voice of DPOs. There are examples of good practice out there where we can realise Article 30 of the UNCRPD.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry but I am conscious of time and we have two other members of the committee and Deputy Ó Snodaigh to come in. I ask members to keep their questions as concise as possible.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for their very powerful and informative testimony. I have encountered Ms Conway and her work before. She tells really compelling individual stories of people who have a disability who are seeking to be included in the world of arts and culture and creativity. That should not jeopardise the very worthwhile and well-deserved support they get from the State.

The basic income scheme for artists is a pilot and it is happening as we speak. It is unprecedented in terms of the State reaching out a helping hand to those at the cutting edge of creativity in Ireland. It is establishing Ireland as an exemplar worldwide for how to do this well. We are going to learn awful lot from that experience. I agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be far greater input from people with a disability as to how the basic income scheme for artists is shaped and developed in the future. In that context, what country does it well? What is the global exemplar for supporting people with disabilities who want to pursue a life of culture and creativity and the arts? As policymakers, we all need to be better informed as to how exactly this is done and how we can support people who bring a unique perspective and have so much to add to the colour and cultural richness of our country.

There will be a very in-depth and forensic analysis of the basic income for artists scheme as it operates right now at the end of that pilot process. Who does this well? I know Mr. Kearns was citing examples of good practice here in Ireland where some local authorities were especially affected. However, who does this well internationally? Who should we be following? That is my basic question.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who would like to take that question? Contributors can be relatively succinct in their answers.

Mr. Peter Kearns:

Internationally, there are some good examples, although they are not fully thought-through examples. The Dutch have some good local community arts infrastructure. I worked there myself. It is down to the local infrastructure and, again, the inclusion of disabled people's organisations in that structure.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do our arts officers in each local authority need to have a specific remit or role to play?

Mr. Peter Kearns:

As we said, they need to have disability equality training in terms of what they think about disability. I had to repair my life with cerebral palsy. That was 30 years ago I was forced to change. That is not my identity. I identify as a disabled artist. It is about buy-in. It is about the current structure engaging with disabled people through disability equality training, but it is also about recognising that disability arts is a movement. It is an arts movement. It is quite exciting. It is not just about grants and accessing audiences. Disabled people are as useful as the rest of us and we have great evidence of that.

Ms Emilie Conway:

For a long time, I have been begging for a task force of disabled artists to disability-proof policies, regulations and initiatives as they are coming out because afterwards is too late. I have real concerns that the framing of the research for the basic income scheme will not bear witness to the experience of disabled artists. Also, it does not benefit disabled artists, because their disability supports are cut, so they have to pay for their disability out of their basic income. It is also devaluing their work.

In terms of a broader European context, the follow-up of On the Move's report, Time to Act, was published today. I recommend that everyone researches that to see what is going on in Europe. From my research, however, no place is doing it perfectly. We had a chance with the basic income scheme and it seems like we have missed it, sadly.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious that Dr. Byrne wants to come in. She may have a brief second because I need to get to other questions.

Dr. Tara Byrne:

Actually, it was in relation to a question that was asked earlier.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. Let me see if I can get back to you, because I am conscious that I need to get to Senator Hoey. I want to get the Senator in before that.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If they want to use my time to answer that question that is okay. It is the representatives' opportunity to speak.

Dr. Tara Byrne:

I think it is important to answer the questions that the Deputy posed, the first of which was about whether we had spoken to the HSE. The HSE is well aware of the situation in relation to the arts in nursing homes, as well as the arts in health. Earlier, my colleague, Ms Hope, mentioned an agreement that exists, but that does not seem to be communicated very well or does not seem to have moved on. It is called "Renew". This is the name of the agreement. They very well aware of the situation.

The second point was in relation to the kind of activities that are provided. There are activities. The issue is that they are arguably not all necessarily meaningful activities. Obviously, this is a very subjective thing, so bingo, mass, games etc., are regular activities. A lot of people really like that, and that is important for those people. Yet, what is not provided regularly are arts activities, or they are provided by people who are not trained and are not artists. It is therefore arguably not really an arts activity in the sense that we would understand it, which is a professional arts activity.

We work with Nursing Homes Ireland on an initiative called National Arts in Nursing Homes Day. We started it two years ago, and it has been a huge incentive for nursing homes to do it. Yet, they are doing it from a very low budgetary base, which brings me to the Deputy's third question. Because there is a private or public-private model of nursing homes in Ireland, it is obviously complicated by what their budget is for and what they may consider their budget is not for. In terms of professional arts activities, it is very based in human resources. That costs significant amounts of money but it is extremely rewarding and it is cost-saving in other ways. Therefore, no, they do not have the budget to provide that kind of everyday activity. It is very rare in nursing homes.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just have one question. Many of my questions have already been answered in the opening statements by the representatives. I was concerned when the basic income was brought in that there would be these side consequences where people would potentially lose other supports. Ms Conway is right to highlight that we have perhaps missed the boat. While it is better to pre-empt these things or not do them in the first place, hopefully we might find a way forward. I am concerned when the witnesses say they do not think the research will include the disability allowance. That might be something for us as a committee to be aware of.

In many areas of the arts there is the issue of equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, which is an enormously broad area. Of course, it is. I was an equality officer for a trade union once, and I nearly collapsed under the weight of it. Our guests have said that disability officers should have a very tight focus. Is that where there needs to be a slight unpicking? If everywhere has an EDI or belonging focus, it puts an enormous amount into some very broad areas. The flip-side is that if you start focusing in, you will lose the intersectionality. I do not know that we are getting the intersectionality anyway under these very broad EDI categories. All of us have filled out arts forms which are basically trying to figure out how many disabled people there are, or how many people of a certain category there are. They ask a million different questions in a million different ways, without being so blunt. Many of those arts forms are basically asking us what we are doing to tick the EDI requirements box. Is there a need to start to separate and delve down into this to give that space to various elements of EDI? We are speaking today about disability in particular. I am pre-empting the answer. I am worried that if we do not look at this in depth, we will continue with an EDI that is slightly about ticking boxes, just because the area is so enormous. It is a really broad category that takes in everything. People may ask whether we should go into this, that and the other and take in minutiae. However, if we do not do it, we might not get this right. I would be interested in hearing the representatives' thoughts on that.

Ms Paula Soraghan:

I will come on that. I thank the Senator for her question. As my colleague Mr. Kearns mentioned in the opening statement, disability equality training is key. Great work is being done in some diversity, inclusion and equality initiatives. As disabled people are unfortunately not being genuinely included in this instance, they are not being given genuine career opportunities, so there is a lot of tokenism. There is still very much an emphasis on disability awareness training, which is not sufficient, to be honest. It is not good enough because the focus is solely on the idea of the impairment as a person's disability. It means that they do not get to see the person as a whole individual. They are just seeing their impairment and their limitations. There is therefore tokenism.

Although some great work is being done, the EDI initiatives could certainly be improved. That is where engagement with DPOs locally and nationally would really help and would really improve it. It would also then mean that there would hopefully be a commitment going forward for actual tangible change. There would be disability equality training delivered by a disabled person who understands what the social model of disability is and why that is so important for them. Slowly but surely, it would start to move away from the prevalent tendency in society to see disability as a personal problem or deficit and we would start to understand it more widely as a political issue. It is something that is done to somebody with an impairment, it is not something that somebody has.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have questions for disability artists and disability academics and disabled artists and disabled academics. I think it was last September that Ms Conway met with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, along with the National Campaign for the Arts. As far as I remember, a commitment was given for continued engagement. I do not know whether that engagement has continued. Does that add to the frustration?

Ms Emilie Conway:

Yes, it does. We need consistent, sustained engagement that also meets our access requirements. One of the things we asked for was that we would not have to be emailing so much and that we could have regular, efficient, short meetings because none of us have much time. That has not happened. Those access requirements have not been met. Follow-up has not happened. The commitments that the Minister made have not been followed through. We are therefore at a point now where we are here and there has been no change.

Red's story and what he created are particularly poignant. He is basically having to deconstruct the beautiful Jazz Ireland community resource he made, on which the jazz community has depended for the past seven years. As a result of the inaction and lack of interest, that is where Red is at, sadly.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have others who have met the Department, the Minister or whoever experienced similar frustration with regard to commitments to meet or follow up that fall by the wayside?

Mr. Peter Kearns:

There is no structured communication with DPOs. The State structure is really tied down in the context of DPOs. There is a need for regular genuine dialogue between Departments and DPOs.

Ms Fiona Smith:

The national arts and health strategy is more than ten years out of date and we are sort of at sea. We do not know our direction, how the Arts Council engages with the HSE or how all of us fit in with that as programmes are developed or not developed or funding is not aligned to the work. It creates a lack of certainty in respect of how the sector can be professional and high quality and deliver for the people with whom we work. We are calling for real engagement on a national framework for arts and health alongside the other actions our colleagues have called for today.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a follow-up question. Many of my family members are artists. They often experience frustration when they create art as it is discussed as though it is a financial package or that everything in the arts must have a financial outcome. There is a lack of appreciation in the system - that is not the fault of a Minister or a Department - that the value of art is not always financially tangible. I know how relatives of mine who had Alzheimer's disease perked up at a piece of art, music or something else. One cannot put a price on the relief it gives them and their family and so on. As a society, we have moved somewhat towards everything needing to have a price. Departments may believe it is difficult for them to move money in a certain way or to allocate it without seeing from where the benefit will come.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

I will not comment on that specific point but, based on all the conversations we have been having, the development of a UNCRPD implementation strategy offers a real opportunity to tackle some of these pieces and maybe catch up on some of those areas that have been left behind. As regards the income side of things, it is at pilot stage. The Department of Social Protection is currently considering all its disability allowances to see what interacts with what and how it all interacts with employment and self-employment. Now is an opportunity to bring these voices to the table. The NDA produced participation matters guidelines in the past year through which we are guiding public bodies on how to have that constructive engagement, recognise the accessibility needs of all the different groups with which they are engaging and close the feedback loop which is often missing, such as when people come in for meetings but then hear nothing further in respect of their recommendations or suggestions. All that practical guidance is now set out and, as we head into the development of the new strategy, it behoves all Departments and agencies to take the guidance on board.

Ms Emilie Conway:

A concern arising from my research is that it appears there is no disability consultative group with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media. It is meant to engage with the disability stakeholders group for the implementation of the national disability inclusion strategy. If there is no structure of engagement with disability within the Department, it is difficult to see how it will implement that strategy or the UNCRPD. There is a fundamental gap in the Department that needs to be closed.

Mr. Peter Kearns:

I will give a quick example. Up in Belfast, which is not too far away, there is the arts and disability forum, which is funded as a disability arts DPO. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland actually had a seat on the forum. There is a direct quality connection between the disability artists DPO and the Stormont structure.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Stormont structure was up and running.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are well over time but I will allow the witnesses to wrap up. The purpose of these meetings is to inform the committee in the context of its producing a report on the development of local and community arts. What are the recommendation of the witnesses in respect of accessibility to local and community arts for older people or people with a disability? That need not necessarily focus on national policy. In particular, I am thinking of supports with regard to local authorities. As a final comment, I invite the witnesses to focus on that local and community aspect.

Ms Catherine Marshall:

I would love to see far more emphasis on the community and place-based art that embraces everybody in the community.

Ms Gr?inne Hope:

I have called for arts and health expertise in the development and the design of local policy. There is amazing work going on at grassroots level but it is not getting recognition or funding. The funding needs to come not just from the Department with responsibility for the arts, but also from those with responsibility for health and social care.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious of the point made by Mr. Kearns, which may help to influence our thinking. If the witnesses have examples of good practice, it would be helpful for them to be shared with the secretariat.

Mr. Peter Kearns:

In terms of local authorities, there is a need for them to speak to local DPOs which are usually populated by disabled artists.

Dr. Aideen Hartney:

We advise that all local authorities and actors in this space take a universal design approach. If a project is developed universally, with consultation and participation from the outset and a co-design approach, that will give rise to something that meets the needs of everybody and there will be no need to renovate or retrofit a policy, building or anything else to make it accessible. If that approach is taken from the start, it will benefit older people, disabled people and everybody else.

Ms Emilie Conway:

There is a need for a task force, as well as working groups distributed throughout the arts sector and local communities, to work in the development of all this because they will inform with their lived and real experience on the ground. There is also the simple step of co-ordination between the Departments with responsibility for the arts and social protection such that people who win an Arts Council award will not lose their disability supports.

Dr. Tara Byrne:

There is a need to ensure nursing homes, day care centres and home care situations are resourced and required to regularly provide professional arts activities.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious that we are well over time. I thank the witnesses for what has been a fruitful and useful discussion and their input into the report. If they have examples we could use, I ask them to please share those with the secretariat. I thank them for their time. The committee will now suspend to allow the next group of witnesses to come in.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee is considering the development of local and community arts. As part of our consideration, we are looking at the area of arts and cultural diversity, including intercultural arts. At the end of our deliberations, we will produce a report with recommendations on how we can enhance participation in local, community and voluntary artistic activity. This meeting has been convened to continue our consideration of those matters. We are pleased to hear, in this session, from representatives of the Irish Traveller Movement, the Irish Network Against Racism, Pavee Point and the Centre for Creative Practices. The witnesses are all very welcome. From the Irish Traveller Movement, I welcome Mr. Bernard Joyce, director, and Ms Jacinta Brack, co-ordinator of policy and advocacy. From the Irish Network Against Racism, I welcome Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa, human rights and community development lead, and Ms Chandrika Narayanan Mohan, writer and cultural consultant. From Pavee Point, I welcome Mr. Martin Collins, co-director, and Ms Caoimhe McCabe, information and communications. From the Centre for Creative Practices, I welcome Ms Monica Sapielak, artistic director and CEO.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. I ask the witnesses to try to stick to the time limit. They will see the clocks in the room. As they are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its web page. After the presentations, we will move to questions from members.

Before we proceed to the opening statements, I have to go through the legal position. I must explain that there are some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses around references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as the Acting Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction. Where witnesses give evidence remotely from a place outside of the parliamentary precincts, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity.

Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given, so they should stick to the topic. They should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the person or entity's good name. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction. I hope all of that legal jargon is clear but I am quite certain there will not be any need to be concerned with it today.

I propose that we proceed to hear the opening statements in the following order: the Irish Traveller Movement, the Irish Network Against Racism, Pavee Point and the Centre for Creative Practices. The representative will have three minutes each.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I thank Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to present to the committee today. This is a timely discussion given that Ireland is preparing its fifth State report to the Council of Europe under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities which was ratified in 1999. Travellers are recognised by the State under this treaty which sets out rights and complementary obligations. Article 5 deals with promoting the conditions necessary to maintain and develop Traveller culture and the preservation of Traveller identity in areas of religion, language, traditions and cultural heritage. Article 14 recognises Travellers' right to learn their own language and Article 15, among other things, requires the State to create the conditions for the effective participation in cultural life. The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights has similar protections, as does the UNESCO Convention, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child. Before we address the committee's theme of local focuses, it is important to look at how those matters might be supported at a national level.

The development of local and community arts to ensure Traveller inclusion is absent from a centralised national strategy with ring-fenced funding. This would give direction and authority to localised community arts to be more inclusive and targeted in their plans, funding schemes and outcomes. A number of related actions were included in the National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy 2017-2021, but it too had no ring-fenced moneys or a leading Department to drive them on. In 2022 Creative Ireland was tasked to support the successor strategy, due in 2024, which is reassuring but there is no engagement on how that will happen.

It is notable that the Arts Council in its discussion with the committee this month recognised that barriers persist to growing and diversifying audiences. The council said that it is committed to breaking new ground. While a welcome recent focus on gender and disability is noted, there are no dedicated Traveller funded schemes and bursaries and no ethnic equality monitoring metrics applied to Arts Council or Creative Ireland funding streams. This would help better targeting and monitoring. We support the recommendation of the National Campaign for the Arts for the commissioning of research into diversity in the arts and the creation of a diversity task force to address any obstacles.

Up to 2022, national and local Traveller organisations were not resourced to work in the area, with one position created since then. Elevating and making visible Traveller culture and heritage has a role in combatting racism and discrimination but this is not being considered enough. National cultural institutions and arts authorities, as allies, protectors and funding guardians, are critical to how we preserve and elevate Traveller life and history in the national consciousness and story, and how we work towards correcting historic cultural erosion.

Planning and designing ways in which Travellers can enjoy and participate fully in cultural rights should be underpinned by dialogue with the community on what that looks like. For example, each national cultural institution might develop a Traveller community engagement strategy and individual action plans which link to a centralised action plan for all national Traveller collections and to localised plans. Public art could be more diverse to reflect the Traveller voice and visibility in its designs and content.

Travellers were not evident in the broad consultation informing the five-year Culture and Creativity Strategy 2017 – 2022, and benefitted from only a very small number of projects noted in the €6.6 million allocated in 2022. The procedure for accessing the fund-through local authority community or county arts offices is problematic for Travellers, where systemic discrimination is ingrained. Traveller participation in local tourism, heritage and the arts settings through active targeting onto boards, committees and decision-making forums, would be welcome, as would a fund for Traveller community arts workers, nationally and locally. Anti-racism and cultural competency training for arts staff across bodies and locations is needed. We would welcome more discussion with the committee on the matters raised in our submission. We have also submitted a list of further recommendations to the committee for its consideration.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

On behalf of the members of the Irish Network Against Racism, INAR, I thank the committee for the invitation to contribute today.

Despite the heart-warming diversity we see around us on the streets of Ireland our arts, culture and sports have been slow to truly reflect our multifaceted society. In Ireland, 17.8% of the population identify as something other than white Irish. This includes people from ethnic and racialised minorities, people with disabilities, LGBTQI+ people, those living in poverty, and some of our quarter of a million children. Our equality statistics and iReport data show a society grappling with everyday discrimination yet we know that arts, culture and sport have countered this, reminding society of the value and enrichment that our diverse voices bring to Ireland.

The human right to participate in the cultural life of communities and the principles of non-discrimination are echoed in the Arts Council’s Equality, Human Rights and Diversity Policy and Strategy. The right to participate in culture also underpins the new national arts policy, Culture 2025. According to Creative Ireland creativity contributes to individual and societal well-being, bringing cohesion and a flourishing democracy. However, the State’s good intentions sometimes founder in a policy-rich and action-poor landscape, where funding can be critiqued as scattergun and piecemeal. Our communities require meaningful engagement by the State to ground these policies in legislation and in action plans that breathe life into our visionary public sector duty. All Departments and bodies that receive State funding, including the Arts Council, should show how they meet this duty to promote equality and eliminate discrimination. Public work should also mirror the intersectional diversity and richness of our communities.

There is still little official research on diversity in Irish publishing, arts and media, particularly viewed through the lens of researchers from those communities. However, enterprises like Skein Press demonstrate that even if small-scale, operating to tight budgets and working with a niche profile, it is possible to create beautiful works that tell the tales of our lives. While some publishing houses have specific policy statements encouraging submissions from minority ethnic communities, the mainstream has far to go. Regarding the media, a Maynooth study showed that many independent production companies wanted to generate change. The writers’ and directors’ guilds understand the need to diversify membership, and Screen Producers Ireland noted that more work is needed.

Our research shows that there is little meaningful inclusion and representation in the Irish arts, literary, publishing and media sector which results in fewer writers, creatives or other professionals being employed from under-represented backgrounds and communities. This needs to change to ensure that the cultural lens reflects today’s diverse Ireland. I will now outline a number of key considerations for local and community arts policy making and funding which are recorded in the National Action Plan Against Racism, NAPAR, the shadow NAPAR, and the INAR submission to this committee. Minority ethnic researchers should report on the barriers to access and inclusion for writers, artists, creatives, sports people and those in related professions from traditionally under-represented backgrounds. This research should inform policy making and create measurable actions. We need positive action measures that would bring a radical change to the industry by creating diversity in these sectors, bringing professionals and creatives from backgrounds traditionally under-represented to work in the Irish arts, literary, media and sports sectors, particularly when employed at decision making levels. The racial equality officers mentioned in the NAPAR who will fund projects must be internally supported by high-level decision makers, including those recruited from minority ethnic communities, to create institutional change. Minority ethnic communities' experience of discrimination within the tourism industry is a largely unexplored area and warrants further peer research and cross-departmental collaboration with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Sustained investment in writers, artists, creatives, and related professions, would give a voice to the lives of racialised minorities and under-represented groups and allow Ireland to meet obligations listed in the International Convention of Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Data needs to be collected systematically to track current investment in diversity in the arts, culture and sports and measure impact and outcomes, to inform future policy direction and funding. The media should consider ethnic and racial diversity in its programming and add this as a criterion for funding. We need local and national grants and programmes that are underpinned by a community development ethos and nurture and capacity build minority ethnic talent, particularly in young people, over the long term. Peer mentoring programmes like Play It Forward are strong models to follow, forging common bonds between people.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry to interrupt but I must ask you to finish now so that the other speakers will have time to present.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

Okay. I am just going to finish. Cross-departmental work is needed to create systematic pathways in the form of targeted programmes at a local and national level to support writers on their creative journey. That includes the State scrutinising its visa and immigration policies which can hamper their ability to work autonomously in this field.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Costa Sa. I call Mr. Collins from Pavee Point.

Mr. Martin Collins:

I thank an Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputies and Senators. Pavee Point is extremely grateful to be here today to present to the committee on what further steps and actions need to be taken to further the inclusion and visibility of Travellers in the culture and arts sector.

Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre has been working to challenge racism and promote Traveller and Roma inclusion in Ireland since 1985. The organisation works from a community development perspective and promotes the realisation of human rights and equality for Travellers and Roma in Ireland.

I will quote the then Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, on 1 March 2017 when he made that historic statement in the Dáil: "Our Traveller community is an integral part of our society for over [a millennium] with its own distinct identity – a people within our people." He went on to state:

As Taoiseach, I now wish formally to recognise Travellers as a distinct ethnic group within the Irish nation. It is ... a historic day for Travellers and a proud day ... for Ireland.

That was indeed a very symbolic and historic statement where our ethnicity was acknowledged by the State. However, that statement will ring very hollow indeed if we do not build on it. While Travellers have made a massive contribution to Ireland’s cultural heritage, Travellers as a collective are still invisible in today’s culture and arts sectors.

Since our inception, Pavee Point believed a community work approach could empower and develop self-awareness, self-esteem and confidence to enable greater Traveller participation in Irish society, including in the arts and culture sector. Pavee Point undertook a series of activities to promote Traveller culture and identity, often incorporating arts work. We put forward our ideas in a book called A Heritage Aheadand carried out activities in music and singing, the Traveller language, Cant, and publications including Traveller folk tales and songs. We were a lead on nominating the Traveller language, Cant or Gammon, and Traveller tinsmithing to the national inventory of intangible cultures, which we are glad to say met a positive response at the Department shadowed by this committee.

Since the recognition of Traveller ethnicity in 2017, we are glad to have been able to work with a variety of arts and culture institutions to promote Traveller inclusion in these mainstream institutions. Very recently, we embarked on a partnership with the Arts Council to support the further development of ambitious Traveller arts and culture initiatives and practices. Local and community arts are vital to Travellers, as it is at this level that there currently exists a strong network of Traveller organisations. However, it is our belief that local authorities and arts bodies need to explore how they could develop collaborative work with Traveller organisations and close the gap between policy commitments and implementation. Active participation and engagement with Traveller organisations to identify the supports required to further develop this work will be crucial in building better Traveller inclusion in local and community arts. In doing this, we need to create the conditions where Travellers have ownership over the interpretation and articulation of our identity, culture and history. Quite often, this has been done through a settled lens and that is not acceptable. This means developing long-term, sustainable approaches to building relationships and capacity. There need to be targeted measures that provide ring-fenced funding at both central and local level for Traveller arts projects led by Travellers and Traveller organisations. An essential step is for Travellers to be explicitly named in local authority and national arts and culture plans. It is our experience that unless Travellers are named, we are generally ignored and left out. While there are some good examples of Traveller inclusion in arts around the country, we need to make this the norm. In addition, to understand the lived experience of Travellers, anti-racism and anti-discrimination training in line with the new national action plan against racism needs to be delivered to local authorities and other key stakeholders. Part of the overall process is for Travellers and Traveller organisations to be able to talk to this committee today. We thank members for the opportunity and hope it will be the start of what could be a really positive and empowering process. We have detailed our points in our submission, which members can read at their leisure, and my colleague, Ms McCabe, and I will answer any questions the committee may have.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Collins very much. Finally, we have Ms Sapielak from the Centre for Creative Practices.

Ms Monika Sapielak:

I thank the honourable members for inviting me to address this esteemed committee today. I would like to discuss the importance of providing resources for supporting the integration and showcasing the talent of migrant artists as a vital part of developing local and community arts.

Embarking on an artistic career is a challenging endeavour with artists often facing precarious existences. Being a migrant artist only amplifies these difficulties. Many Irish writers and artists who had to leave the country to pursue their creative careers abroad can testify to this at first hand. At the same time, cultural vibrancy and creativity are the lifeblood of sustainable societal development. They enhance the competitive advantage of villages, towns, cities and regions, create local employment, foster social inclusion, cultivate local identity, improve quality of life and mental health and contribute to tourism and the economy. For all these reasons, supporting, promoting and integrating migrant artists into the local cultural landscape is a visionary investment that helps create an open, inclusive and tolerant society. It enriches the local cultural fabric through cross-pollination and utilises the enormous human and creative potential brought to Ireland.

Since 2007, the Centre for Creative Practices, which I founded, has been offering migrant artists curatorial support, professional advice, mentoring and training. We have provided high-quality and fairly paid opportunities, showcasing their work through concerts, exhibitions, readings, performances and screenings that have reached over 30,000 audience members. During the last recession, we operated a dedicated gallery and event space that became the go-to place for local and international audiences in Dublin. Today, however, our organisation has gone from five people to just one. Due to the lack of funding, we are not in the position to employ even one full-time staff member, while a minimum of two are essential to our operations. The absence of a dedicated space makes our programming and planning very difficult. At the same time, our services are needed now more than ever.

In the last year alone, more than 120,000 migrants have arrived in Ireland. Among them was Manar Al Shoulha from Syria, a really gifted painter who without our assistance would not have had access to a studio space and art materials while living in direct provision. Through our support, an exhibition featuring works she created in Ireland, showcasing the immense talent and resilience of migrants, attracted nearly 1,500 visitors to Rathfarnham Castle. Also last year, we had the privilege of connecting with and organising concerts by Ksenia Rusnak, a Ukrainian bandura virtuoso who arrived in Ireland with nothing but her instrument and a small rucksack. These are just two examples from a long list of remarkable individuals whose talents and abilities deserve recognition and support. By showcasing their work, we bring pride to their communities and foster a sense of appreciation among their neighbours. Celebrating great art will not diminish the housing crisis and other challenges we face but it helps us cope, reflect on and appreciate the beauty of a culturally diverse population.

For more than 15 years, our organisation has proven our ability to deliver ambitious, sustainable high-quality programmes and services that contribute to creating an inclusive and diverse cultural landscape and society. To continue and expand our work, we require resources. By securing adequate funding and dedicated space, we can expand and sustain a service that has already been recognised in the EU as cutting-edge and best practice in integrating migrant artists and making a lasting impact, not just on the lives of individual artists but on society as a whole. I am grateful for members' attention and would be happy to address any questions they may have.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses. As I said, the focus is on local and community arts. Each of the Deputies and Senators will now have four minutes for questions and answers. I will, therefore, ask people to be relatively succinct in their answers. The first speaker is Deputy Munster

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to be fairly swift with this. Mr. Joyce made reference to the culture and creativity strategy and how there was no meaningful engagement with Travellers on that, and that Travellers did not fare in any way, shape or form and got very little of that fairly sizeable funding of €6.6 million. He also said the procedure for getting funding through the local authority community or county arts offices is problematic "where systemic discrimination is ingrained". I could use the word "shocking" but it is not either if you know what I mean.

It is unbelievable that they are still experiencing that at local authority level and in terms of local authority status. Can Mr. Joyce outline an example of that sort of thing or of where there is no engagement and no outreach. Where they feel there are obstacles, what mechanism have they to reproach that?

I have a question for Ms Costa Sa on her point that the funding is scattered. Does she think a central database of funding would be easier and more accessible? Does she think that could do away with some of the obstacles and problems, and that it could be considered to make funding more accessible?

Mr. Collins asked for Travellers to be explicitly named and he said that if they are not named in local authorities, they do not register at all. Again, it is shocking that they still have to flag up those sorts of issues. If it is not happening at local authority level, what needs to happen at Government level to cut that out altogether? With regard to ring-fencing of funding, has his organisation made approaches to the Minister or to the various Departments about ring-fencing funding, what response has come back and what obstacles have been put in its path? How do they right this wrong if that is still going on and if they have to constantly battle every day, even at local authority level?

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are three questions and just one minute left. I will allow some latitude but I ask witnesses to be succinct.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I will try. On the first question on the local authorities, the arts officers and participation and engagement, I would say that, at some level, it is very minimal. In general, Travellers do not see themselves within the arts because they are not supported or enabled to participate within that. They see everything else but they do not see themselves. It is down to the goodwill of individuals in terms of their approach and engagement, but it is not driven in the policy, so it is not embedded.

That is reflective of the other challenges. There is a general sense among Travellers that local authorities are providers of housing and accommodation, and that is where the challenge is because they are seen as a kind of body where tensions already exist. The policy is not down to individuals. We need to ensure it is embedded within the policies at a national level and then filters down to a local level, and is supporting and enabling participation of the wider society and Travellers within that. At the moment, that is not very evident at a local level.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

On the question of whether it should be local or one body, for us, it is actually about giving autonomy to those local community groups and embedding it in those communities, who understand their needs. Minority ethnic groups need to be part of that decision-making so it is not necessarily whether it needs to be one organisation but what that organisation achieves through its funding, so we would look for monitoring of those programmes and a longer-term outcome. Perhaps Ms Narayanan Mohan can talk to what those outcomes should be.

Ms Chandrika Narayanan Mohan:

Skein Press did an evaluation of a recent programme and one of its findings was that consultation with potential participants is key to good programme design. Rather than reinventing the wheel, it would make sense to improve the consultation processes with local authorities and with existing funding structures, and make sure there is a proper way of inviting people in; for example, there is no way of helping people for whom English is not their first language to apply for funding pots. All of these things could be done with a lot better support within these existing structures. Local authorities are very important because they are already on the ground, they already know their local communities and they are already working with those groups and empowering those groups to be in decision-making positions and, specifically for non-EU workers and those from minoritised backgrounds, to be moved from service user artist into decision-making positions. That would really help those consultancy processes and help to make the outcomes of so many of these funding and reporting structures more sustainable and take those results into the future more, essentially bolstering what we already have with better consultancy processes and involving the people for whom it is supposed to be working.

Mr. Martin Collins:

It is obviously something the Traveller organisations collectively are pursuing so there would be ring-fenced funding available that would support what we would call targeted interventions or initiatives to support and enhance Traveller inclusion in mainstream cultural institutions. We see that as an affirmative action measure, which is allowed under the Equal Status Act and is something Mr. Joyce also referenced. The framework convention on the protection of national minorities also talks about affirmative action to support and enhance Traveller inclusion and disability inclusion in mainstream cultural institutions. However, in order to achieve that, we also need targeted interventions and ring-fenced funding. Travellers are well-placed to access that funding and to pursue special measures that would support that.

Let us be honest, we are completely invisible and excluded in our mainstream cultural institutions. They only reflect a white, settled perspective on life, and minorities, including Travellers, of course, are not represented. That is a wrong that needs to be addressed. Our people have been on the island since the fourth century yet we are a mere footnote in any historical text. As I said, we are certainly invisible in the cultural institutions. This is about acknowledgement, affirmation, validation and acknowledgement of our culture, our identity and how that gets supported and respected by the State.

The State has an obligation. Irish history and culture are not the sole preserve of the majority population. We have a shared experience and a shared identity on the island going back to the fourth century but we, as a community, also have a very distinctive experience, a very distinctive identity and a very distinctive outlook on life, and we need to see that reflected in the school curriculum and in our cultural institutions.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise that I am only now getting to join the meeting as I had another commitment. I thank Senator Malcolm Byrne for chairing while I was away. As Deputy Munster has concluded, I call Senator Hoey.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank everyone for coming in today. The session today and the previous session have been very interesting in terms of how we ought to diversify our arts community in our communities. There is a lot of discussion around the universal basic income for artists, who that has been working for and who it has not been working for. I would be interested in delving into that in terms of organisations, communities or people that the organisations here today represent with regard to its accessibility. I know it is only a pilot programme and all of these learnings have to come from it, but we have already heard today from groups for whom it is not working because, for example, it is costing them other supports, and I could hazard a guess as to the people able to access it or be included in it. I was struck by what has been said in terms of people feeling that they even belong to that artistic community, and whether it is working or how it could work for the communities they represent. The whole idea is to create that floor below which people do not fall but if people do not see that as something they would necessarily be a part of, how do we address that?

I think every artist should get a universal basic income and I would go as far as to say there should be a specific universal basic income for certain communities, entirely separate to the universal basic income, but maybe I am making that a little too complicated. I direct that question to all of the organisations.

Ms Jacinta Brack:

In terms of the initial rolling out of that scheme being a lottery, a lot of the time we are looking at how Travellers are not included in those more mainstream strategies, research samples and national population samples, and there would be a merit to having a cohort of some of those or setting a quota within all of those strategies. For instance, I know offhand of two Travellers who applied under that scheme but they were not successful in the lottery, let us say, so there is a question of how Travellers broadly are viewed in terms of being artists already working in the sector.

One of the issues that arises is where there is 20% disability in the community. Some have advocated for changes to the income thresholds in that regard because then they are losing their payments from another social protection measure. There are structural obstacles generally in the system and the basic income living for artists would have to be viewed in that context. It is a very broad-stroke measure. If you consider that it will include groups with additional needs, then that has to be met whether in disability or something else.

Ms Monika Sapielak:

From the perspective of individual artists, what I have heard so far is that it is a positive scheme. The majority of them have two or three jobs and the number of hours they need to work to support themselves is ridiculous. That would balance that aspect. From that perspective, it is definitely important but, as mentioned already, it has to be negotiated along with other supports that might be cut or withdrawn.

Ms Chandrika Narayanan Mohan:

It is a bit difficult at the moment because the valuation of the whole process has not happened but just look at the application process. Take the need for a professional body approval as one way to apply; many people from minoritised backgrounds or non-EU workers would not have that. Then there is even the process itself for someone for whom English is not their first language. It is a bureaucratic, form filling system that is new to everyone. The Skein Press evaluation and others also found that artists from migrant backgrounds have a lot of trouble identifying as artists and writers. When they are empowered through programmes, including development programmes, and where they have been consulted they gain confidence and have said they did not identify as a writer before now and they do. It is about having something that is a call-out for artists from minoritised groups which have trouble even identifying as artists. Then there is the question of how it even applies to non-EU workers who need work permits. Legally, they cannot even do one freelance gig outside of their full-time job. It is not even legal. They might not know this exists or that it is for them so it is excluding a huge swathe of potential creatives, artists and people who can move Ireland forward in really exciting ways through their work. At first sight, it looks as though there are a lot of barriers even with the application process. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mr. Martin Collins:

On funding and who can access it, often it is about capacity and having the skills to navigate a very cumbersome and awkward system of applications which not everyone can do. That needs to be simplified. As part of the funding allocation process, Pavee Point will call for the introduction of an ethnic identifier so that we can map and measure which groups, communities and minorities are accessing the funding so as to ensure that minority and marginalised groups are being well represented when it comes to funding allocation. We do not have a real sense of that now therefore we would encourage the inclusion of an ethnic identifier on the application form. If we can establish from the data that minority groups are not accessing the funding to the extent they should then we would have to rethink our strategy. That data and that information is crucial. We need to know who is accessing the funding.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

The visa and immigration issue is a barrier similar to the one that the committee will have heard about in the hospitality industry around tourism. It is prohibiting growth in the field.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To follow up on the ethnic identifier, the ring-fencing of funding is all very good but once it is ring fenced it could all be spent on one project and it does not filter down. That is the danger. I am on another committee that deals with the Irish language. The Arts Council was before us on something else altogether. In the middle of that discussion, there was a question about how to ensure that Arts Council funding goes to the Irish language because that has always been a criticism, at least against some of it. We were told that the council could set a percentage of every festival that gets money from the Arts Council, so that a certain amount has to be set aside for Irish language events as part of the festival. It may be that part of what is intended here is that when public money is allocated that there has to be a percentage if it cannot happen automatically. The evidence is that it is not happening and it is an afterthought for the Irish language and it is for diverse communities in Ireland. For Travellers, it is not even an afterthought, but it is well after in most cases. How do we force the State sector, which is the biggest funder, to look to ensure that funding goes the way it is meant to go rather than how it has gone to date?

Mr. Martin Collins:

From a Traveller organisation perspective, we are in the process of developing the new national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy. The previous strategy has come to an end so we are working with the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, and his Department to develop the next one. We will push for actions in that strategy as we did with the last one for 2017-21 around culture, identity and inclusion of Travellers in the arts and so on. As part of that we will recommend that funding would be put aside or ring-fenced to support Travellers’ capacity positively to embed ourselves further in the arts and cultural sector of the country. I do not think there would be any resistance to that. Our community has not been invested in in the area of culture and the arts and the validation of our identity and our contribution to the arts through the years.

I am struck by a profound observation Dr. Bairbre Ní Fhloinn from the Centre for Irish Folklore in UCD made in 2006. She said if any village or town in Ireland that had a population of 30,000 people - that is what we had at the time; it is now around 60,000 - produced as many artists, singers, poets and fantastic musicians such as the Fureys, the Keenans and Johnny Doran it would be deemed by the UN to be a heritage town. It would be given that status. That is what our community has done. It is a small community and we have produced so many artists of a very high calibre yet we have not had the acknowledgement, recognition or the validation it deserves. That is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

To add to what Mr. Collins said, as a community we look at the richness, culture and arts but it is done in a completely different way. It is recognised by Travellers but it is not entirely recognised by everybody else. The community is very gifted in what its people touch and what they do between the music, arts and stories. There are so many people in the community. Given that we are enriched with this culture, recognition from 2017 has not gone far enough to embed that richness and culture in the broader society. Our community is asking how do we really ensure that our culture is safeguarded into the future. How do we really embed that? It is not just about funding but about the richness of that and for everyone to see what we see in the pride and the culture. The challenge is there is no drive or lead. Yes, there is the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy but I do not think we necessarily have to wait for all these strategies to be in place for someone to drive it. It should be happening and we need to see it being driven at a national level by the relevant Department and the Minister to ensure it is supported in a way that it should be.

The other side of that is that there can be a small ring-fenced budget which can just go to one project. We do not want to see that. We would like to see a national Traveller advisory forum comprised of local and national organisations working to support a deeper engagement with our community on arts, culture, strategies and plans, and on funding for Traveller-specific workers to be part of that. That is what we would like to see. We want to see ourselves in it, not see ourselves as recipients of it. We want to be embedded in it, be part of it and be part of the richness that we want to see. We are just not even close to that now. What we are talking about at the moment is anti-racism and the cultural competency of those who are in those areas. We are talking about the need to train and support them, whereas we should be supported as a community going into it. I hope that answers the question.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

We work collaboratively as communities and sister organisations. We think that if we carry out positive action measures to recruit people from minority ethnic communities into those posts in which they disburse funding, as communities we do that fairly.

Ms Chandrika Narayanan Mohan:

I agree with what was said about not just being on the service-user end of things but being part of everything. There have been amazing and encouraging movements throughout the arts sector of specific initiatives and programmes that are helping people from minority ethnic backgrounds and minoritised groups. However, if the decision-makers are not from those backgrounds, we will not get long-term results because that will eventually evolve until the need for these specific ring-fenced things hopefully fades away and the next problem of the time is dealt with. The idea is that from my specific angle of non-EU workers, it is impossible to get any job within the arts because work permit restrictions are so strict that everyone's applications tend to get rejected the first time around. It is extremely hard for non-EU workers to get any work within the arts and besides that, it is fully illegal for them to be freelance workers at all. As artists and creatives, how do they move into those decision-making positions? I mention the distribution of funds into those projects that help elevate people from minoritised backgrounds. It is likely they will be allocated and used in meaningful ways when the members of staff are from a variety of backgrounds and when it will not always be a homogenous group stating that it will help the other group. That just means that once that project is over, it is over and it will not go forward. Recruitment and having the people who would benefit from these processes be part of and leading them are the most important ways of distributing these funds.

Ms Monika Sapielak:

I echo those points. This arm's-length principle that guides the operations of the Arts Council could be expanded to these minorities-led organisations. A number of them that work directly with final recipients know what their needs are, they know the way to operate and they know how to support them to benefit to the best extent. That is the critical aspect that came up in all these previous suggestions. At the moment, even if the strategy or implementation by the Arts Council has been put in place to represent the minorities more, the majority of funding still goes to long-established organisations that just twisted it a little bit or added new aspects to the strategy. While that is brilliant and welcome, it is still an add-on for them and not the core mission. This affects the impact of the whole process.

Mr. Martin Collins:

I will make a final point. We are in an interesting time when there is a lot of positivity and development. There are good initiatives on Traveller inclusion and visibility in the arts and cultural sector and we need to develop those and build on them. While we are here as Traveller organisations and while we have a role to play in supporting Traveller inclusion and visibility in the arts and culture sector, it is also important to acknowledge that there are individual Travellers who have the capacity and are, in their own right, developing their own projects, including plays, writings and other initiatives, in the arts and culture sector. They are doing well and they should be supported as well. Not everything has to be conducted through a Traveller organisation. We have an important role to play but there are also many individuals in the community who are doing pioneering work in culture, arts, playwriting, music and other arts initiatives and it is important that this is acknowledged as well. That is all I am saying.

Ms Jacinta Brack:

I will make a comment on the pace of progress that is needed. We see in the past two or three years in particular, and since the introduction of the public sector duty, that a lot of bodies are reflecting on their equality, diversity and inclusion strategies and there tend to be new measures with some of the groups that are covered under the equality legislation over others. These should not be competing interests because Travellers often come as a footnote or come last on the charter of priorities within those. Something that is needed as a further effort would be an analysis of the funding that is available across the mainstream arts and culture strategies because that in itself could be happening at a quicker pace for Travellers. As Mr. Collins noted, there are a lot of community people engaged in some of these schemes already. However, a Traveller-specific bursary would be valuable in the interim.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

In 2023, there was a €130 million investment. That comes back to my colleague's question of what investment is being allocated to those groups that are under-represented. What supports are being driven in terms of the Traveller community, the formal recognition of which we had to fight tooth and nail for in 2017? That was probably one of the longest running campaigns in the State and people would argue that it was the denial of Traveller ethnicity, rather than formal recognition. As an Irish Traveller, it was never a gift of the State to recognise my ethnicity. My ethnicity was always who I was. I was born a Traveller and will die a Traveller. I want that point to be acknowledged.

On the other steps that are needed, investment, targets and supports have to be put in place. That is, as Mr. Collins said, to right the wrongs of the past and to do what needs to be done; to invest and put that in the right places with the right supports. This will ensure that as we move forward, our community and other communities are central and embedded, are part of that and are supported and enabled to be engaged. Some people will look at our musicians and say they are great musicians but they do not see them as they are - as Irish Travellers. They just see them as musicians and that is part of it. We need to change that story. Other than that, I will revert to the key recommendations we made for members.

Mr. Martin Collins:

This is genuinely my last point. I sound like Miriam O'Callaghan saying the word "genuinely". As I said, we are at a positive time in Traveller inclusion and visibility in the arts, and there are good relationships developing between Traveller groups, the Arts Council and the Heritage Council. Travellers are named in the Heritage Council's strategic plan that was launched here only a couple of weeks ago and that Ms McCabe, I and others attended. It is important that we are named in it. There is an opening to working with Traveller groups to develop this area.

As I said, there are Travellers who are well established. These are the likes of Rosaleen McDonagh, John Connors, Martin Beanz Ward, Michael Collins, Leanne McDonagh and many others.

They are fantastic and are doing great work.

As Traveller organisations, we have a role to play so that we do not end up replicating what happened in the settled community. Let us be straight about this: at one stage - not too long ago in fact - arts and access to arts and culture was very elitist. Ethnic minorities were not the only ones who were excluded. There was a class issue as well. It was primarily for the middle and upper classes, who were able to access and participate in culture and the arts. Thankfully, that is now beginning to be dismantles. Many groups that were not represented in the area of arts and culture are now beginning to access them. However, we are not at the place we want to be. As a result, we need to encourage and promote that further.

The role of Traveller organisations is to make sure that we do not replicate what happened in the settled community. In other words, that it becomes elitist in the Travelling community and only certain individuals are able to access and participate in the arts. We have an obligation to ensure that as many Travellers as possible are encouraged, and that we create the conditions where they are able to contribute to or participate in the arts. I would just caution against that: we could replicate what happened in the settled community, and we need to avoid that.

Ms Monika Sapielak:

From my perspective of 15 years of supporting migrant artists in Ireland, what I notice is that the barrier of going to the local established organisations is much bigger than coming to us and sharing whatever difficulties they face or whatever needs they have and supports they require. This is quite important because the bridging element is very critical.

In terms of the elitist aspect that has been mentioned, the traditional arts were not elitist. Traditional arts happen naturally on the ground at the grassroots in terms of development and activity. People celebrate it in a very direct way. That is what needs support, and maybe more celebration, focus and funding at grassroots level. The elitist arts are the arts sold in big galleries and on the big stages, far away from the audiences.

Mr. Martin Collins:

Even at a local level we are excluded. I will give an example. I live in Finglas and there used to be a festival there. We were not participants or included in that festival, so we made demands on them to be included. Even at local level, there has been exclusion. It is not just at the national level of operas and plays in the Abbey or the Gaiety; at local level, the exclusion was very visible.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I will just to add to that point. There are very clear examples. I get the question in terms of community, which is what we are talking about. We are talking about community engagement and the arts. But in those spaces where there are community arts, Travellers can also be left behind. They are not participating and they are not part of the decision-making or they are not engaged. I refer to festivals such as the fleadh festivals that happen across the country. Travellers are not being targeted. They are not being engaged. There are local festivals in Meath, Cavan and elsewhere across the country where Travellers are not being targeted or approached. The festivals are not reaching out to local organisations. We are just talking about music, arts and storytelling. There is the Living History project in which Travellers showcase their culture. We are as much a part of the community as anybody else, so why does it become selective in terms of what we showcase? People showcase what they want to see or what they think is of value to them, but we are not seen in it and we do not participate in it. That is really important. I say that, not just about Travellers but other diverse minority ethnic groups as well.

Ms Maria Elena Costa Sa:

I just want to make a comment about how arts and culture can be so good when adequately funded at bringing communities together to collaborate and learn about each other and build massive solidarity from the ground up. It is in valuing our differences that we learn to work cohesively together. It is about adequate funding and not pitting us against each other.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am glad I asked that question. The witnesses answered a lot of questions. It has been a great debate. I hope it goes right down to local authorities and whatever organisations and Ministers appoint people to boards. The State has a lot more power to interact and to frame policy.

If we were all the same, we would have no art. We would be bored to death with it. It is our differences that create good art, where we mix and we enjoy other's backgrounds and individuality. I say well done to the witnesses.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that very positive note, we will give Deputy Ó Snodaigh the last word. I thank the witnesses for being with us today. I apologise as I had to miss part of the meeting. I look forward to going back on some of the footage and the opening statements. I thank the four organisations who are represented here: the Irish Traveller Movement, the Irish Network Against Racism, Pavee Point and the Centre for Creative Practices. I thank them all very much indeed.

That concludes our public session today. We will now move into private session. We will continue when the witnesses have left the room.