Dr. Alan Wall:

However, I can say that the expansion piece is certainly still live, as far as we are concerned. From the HEA's point of view, as I said in the opening statement, one of the things we are charged with is maintaining a balance in the system, planning it and thinking in a strategic way around it. As the Senator quite rightly said, there is a world-class provision from UCD. It is one of the best in the world. There is a question regarding a too-rapid expansion. Given where it is and the space it has, what is the likelihood of that being in some way damaged? As I also said, the consumer protection people have raised with us that there is one supplier of this. Except for optometry, it is probably the only profession where there is only one supplier in Ireland. There is expansion in there and we see it as being part of a blended response to the needs, rather than being a case of if-or.

On the issue of the points system, the net answer to the Senator's question is "No". We have not done an analysis of the points achieved by students who go away because, from our point of view, it is not the immediate issue we are trying to address. This is to be absolutely honest. I know they have requirements that are slightly different from the CAO piece. I think they are required to do exams before they enter the institutions. Much of the time these are in chemistry, maths and biology. This is slightly different from how we do it. Some of them recognise the leaving certificate. The issue of points is interesting for us in higher education. It is always an issue because it is not an educational requirement. In fairness to UCD, it does not set out the number of points it wants for veterinary medicine. Rather, the market does. In other words, it is the demand. The demand for the 82 or 83 places in UCD is 7:1 or 8:1. The points are always, therefore, going to be used as a differentiator. It is the same with medicine, law and history, for instance, in some institutions. It is about demand. As the Senator is aware, if you look at UCD's requirements for veterinary, they are not 600 points. I defer, but I think they require H2s and H3s in biology and chemistry, and H5s and H6s in maths.

They are not at 600 points. The 600 points is how they differentiate between applicants. That is always difficult for us. It is, as was said, the system we live with. However, there are ways - UCD has started down this road - of using the points added to graduates from other like or key areas, such as agriculture, but also portfolios, which is another way in.

I have seen some in the press talk about interviews and that maybe the farmers' sons and daughters should have a special provision. The difficulty with that in a system like ours that is so small is that if you start to allocate scarce places on the basis of what parents did it becomes really problematic across a number of areas.

Also, the points system is one we all struggle with. It is a good system in some ways but there are alternative methods. UCD has led on that, on the portfolio piece.

I do not know if that is any help.