Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I am conscious as well that HIQA certainly does have those powers when going into Tusla's offices to examine things. The ongoing need to protect children was referred to, as was the ongoing framework in this regard. I am thinking of this context now in terms of a carrot-and-stick approach. Tusla needs the big stick of proper inspection and consequences, because this will aid compliance. I have no doubt that the services being inspected through the alternative care inspection or even social work offices are much more alive to the regulations because of the potential for there to be an unannounced HIQA inspection than they would be if there was not that possibility or if such an undertaking only looked at policies and procedures before the people concerned walked out the door. While I understand where Tusla is coming from, we should not downplay the importance of proper compliance and the need here for compliance. Based on what has been said, it would certainly seem that in some areas Tusla does have appropriate powers but it does not in others. This is concerning and we must be highlighting this situation.

Regarding the lessons learned from the past, in 2019, as we have discussed, the abuse being discussed was held to not be systemic. Since then, however, many things have emerged. We have about 16 people now making allegations. We also have Dr. Shannon's report around a structure and culture that facilitated these things. I refer to the significant awareness of serious threats within the organisation. Knowing what Tusla knows now, therefore, with the benefit of hindsight, admittedly, if the situation in 2019 were being assessed in this context, would it meet the threshold for systemic abuse?