Mr. Se?n Clancy:

-----the Defence Forces have not issued a medal. We do not intend to issue a medal in this regard to any of our personnel for the part they played.

Deputies Brady and Lawless mentioned the hybrid in both areas. I refer to the Commission on the Defence Forces as a starting point. The Commission on the Defence Forces was very clear on the capability gaps that exist in respect of defence policy outlined in the White Paper of 2015, the commensurate tasks applied and direct tasks that fell out of that, and the capacity of the Defence Forces within the means and capabilities provided by the State. That was very clearly identified by the commission. As a consequence, capability gaps have opened up over time. We are well aware of those and the commission outlined the areas on which we need to concentrate. The prioritisation that came from the commission report also lends itself to that.

Two very clear areas to which the Deputy referred are cyber and hybrid. In both of those areas, we are actively pursuing the commission's recommendations. As he will appreciate, capacity and absorption are key areas we need to be able to achieve and will form part of the development, redesign and restructuring of our forces as we go forward. As he rightly pointed out, areas of critical infrastructure, such as cables and other materials of that nature, are important to the State. However, this State very much takes a whole-of-government approach. For instance, the cables he mentioned fall under the responsibility of the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications. The Defence Forces are part of enabling and supporting the State in the wider whole-of-government approach, and that is the position we take. From a capability point of view, we have the capability development branch which is in development. We have our equipment development plan which will feed into that. That is a five-year plan, now taking into consideration the overall expenditure growth that we expect and the capital and infrastructural development that supports that. It is under an IDP. All of these are published on our websites and, I believe, on the Oireachtas website. They are freely available and are renewed on an annual basis. People can step through those to see where the priorities are and where they are changing over time.

The commission laid out very clearly the priorities for Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service at this point in time, some of which tie in directly to the cyber and hybrid space. The commission also identified the need for cyber command structures and hybrid command structures. We are very conscious of that in the redesign and restructuring of the organisation. When we speak about fit-for-purpose Defence Forces, these are the areas we need to grow. An agile organisation that is fit for purpose with a proper command-and-control structure will enable the organisation to reshape itself, change itself and reconstitute itself in response to the changing unpredictable dynamic security environment we face.

The Deputy mentioned the representative associations. He had a number of questions on the working time directive. I have already answered in respect of the Reserve, Cathal Brugha Barracks and the Naval Service in particular. I will try to address those now. The personnel and human resources challenges in the Naval Service are well known. They require us to adjust our posture with a certain number of vessels. We have decommissioned three vessels which were old and no longer efficient. Part of the commission's response is to build a new balanced fleet in the Naval Service that will support operations and outputs of the overall Defence Forces. As the Deputy knows, as part of that balanced fleet approach we have acquired two inshore patrol vessels. We will then move on towards the longer term approach to a multi-role vessel. That will bring the Naval Service fleet back up to nine ships.

If we look at the Naval Service in terms of its outputs, it takes two things - if I can be as straightforward as that - namely, platforms and human resources to operate those platforms. While we may have ships tied up and we may have decommissioned ships, this does not prevent us from knowing what the capability requirements are and how to fulfil what is laid down in that regard by the commission, and to have a medium to longer term view on that. That will support the redevelopment, regeneration and building of the Naval Service. I must be optimistic. I am optimistic that we can turn the position with regard to Naval Service human resources around. We are moving in many streams to try to achieve that.

The second part of this relates to the human resources required to man and operate those things. We do not downsize the platforms because that is counterintuitive to trying to grow the human resources to the specific level that is required to fulfil the roles, assigned outputs and capabilities required by Government of us. The commission referred to a nine-ship fleet in order to achieve level of ambition 2. We intend to achieve that and we are on course for a balanced fleet of nine ships in due course by the time we reach 2028 and beyond. Generating the human resources to fulfil that is part of that ambition.

As the Deputy rightly pointed out, up to 2016, the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána were exempt from the Organisation of Working Time Act. The change of policy at that time required a number of working groups to identify the impact and effect. The majority of routines, operations and daily outputs of the Defence Forces fall within the scope of the working time directive and fall within the working time directive itself at this point. At the moment, we are going through a process of trying to develop heads of Bill to transpose the impact of that into legislation which will come before this House in due course. We are engaged with stakeholders, primarily, as the Deputy mentioned, the representative associations as one part of it.

The European Court of Justice ruling was very instructive in informing what was within scope. It identified several areas that were a national prerogative for countries in terms of their own paradigm, their own security and defence and to define what was within scope. We are involved in an iterative consultative process with the representative associations at the moment. Another meeting will happen later this week. The Tánaiste has been very clear that he wants a determination and completion of this by the end of this year. We are all engaged in that - the civil, military and representative associations and other stakeholders - because it has a wide impact. I am confident that this will be completed by the end of the year.

Of course, a number of areas are impacted. As already stated, the majority of the activities of the Defence Forces fall within the working time directive as it stands. We are now into the consultative process of defining what is and is not within scope as a consequence of the European Court of Justice ruling as well as so the actual directive itself so that we can transpose it accurately. This does not fall within the gift of the Defence Forces; ultimately, it is a policy decision. The Attorney General and others need to be involved in this. It falls to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to transpose it into legislation. I am very confident that this will be done. We need to maintain a balance. Central is the protection of the rights of personnel serving in the Defence Forces. We also need to ensure that we maintain the capacity to deliver the outputs as assigned.

We can do both. I am confident we can get there. It takes, like anything, good negotiations and good proper thought and analysis to do so. I am confident we will get there at the end of the day with it.

Finally, on Cathal Brugha Barracks, the committee will be aware that there is a feasibility study, that is under way right now, that has been set up to establish the feasibility of Cathal Brugha Barracks, in terms of if we were to move it somewhere else. Cathal Brugha Barracks is a live operational barracks. That means that people work there and they live there. To move the barracks means moving where people live also and that is something that can often be lost in translation during these discussions.

The feasibility study, as agreed interdepartmentally to be undertaken, will look at the totality of that. It will look at the totality of the security implications for the city. It will look at the security implications for the Defence Forces and our ability to provide same to the critical infrastructures within the city itself and what are the alternatives for it.

I await the outcome of that with interest. When it comes, of course, I will engage with it and we will see where that brings us at that point in time. I would not like to be pre-emptive or prejudicial to the outcome of that feasibility study at this point in time, if that is okay with the Deputy.