Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 21 March 2023
Joint Committee On Children, Equality, Disability, Integration And Youth
Youth Work and Integrated Care and Education: Discussion
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I need to go through some housekeeping matters. I apologise that another committee meeting is happening at the same time and I also need to attend that. I will chair this meeting for a bit. I will get a nod through the window here. I will need to run away to the other committee and I hope to come back. If I get up and walk out, it is not down to anything the witness might have said. I apologise in advance for any interruption.
Deputy Whitmore will be standing in for Deputy Cairns this week. We have received apologies from Deputy Funchion and Senator Seery Kearney who cannot make it today.
We are here to have an engagement with stakeholders on youth work. We are joined from FamiliBase by Mr. Brendan Cummins, youth work project leader; and Ms Fiona Kearney, interim CEO; from SOLAS by Ms Leanne Lowry, youth programme manager; and Ms Amy Carey, CEO; from Connect 4 by Mr. Paul Perth, team leader; and Ms Grace Hill, Tallaght Drug & Alcohol Task Force co-ordinator; from Bluebell Youth Project by Mr. Gerard Roe, youth worker; from Crosscare by Ms Sinéad Harris, manager Ronanstown youth service; and Mr. Greg Tierney, youth work manager; from St. John Bosco Youth Centre by Mr. Stephen Sharpe, project leader; and Ms Emily Boyne, youth worker; and from St. Ultan’s Cherry Orchard by Mr. John Scanlon, finance, services and campus manager; and Ms Susan Menton, integration adviser. They are all very welcome. If I have anyone's names or titles wrong, please shout.
I advise everyone that the chat function on Microsoft Teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of technical issues or urgent matters that may arise and not to make general comments during the meeting. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present in the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot let a member who is not adhering to this constitutional requirement speak. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask members partaking via Microsoft Teams, before they speak to let us know they are in Leinster House. We do not have anyone on Microsoft Teams at the moment.
In advance of inviting our guests to deliver their opening statements, I wish to advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses participating from the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses will be allocated three minutes' speaking time. The opening statement will be followed by questions and answers with the members of the committee. That completes the announcement of housekeeping matters. I now call Ms Kearney from FamiliBase.
Ms Fiona Kearney:
We are grateful for the invitation and the opportunity to contribute to the discussion on the direction of children's and young people's services. We are here today to tell the committee about the experiences of young people and families we work with in the community of Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard and to suggest some solutions. It is important to say that we are not here to represent the youth work sector as we have not consulted with other services or youth workers, and we are not solely a youth service.
I will start by telling the committee a bit about FamiliBase. FamiliBase has three strands within its service delivery: early years; child and family; and youth and community. We offer a continuum of programmes and services within these strands. Programme delivery in FamiliBase occurs at a range of different levels, from universal level, for example drop-ins, youth cafés, arts events and early childhood care and education, ECCE, to intensive wraparound practice for those with multiple or complex needs, for example intensive family support, systemic family therapy, case management and therapeutic key working. Given the national policy landscape on integrating services for children, young people and families, FamiliBase has worked to integrate programmes and service delivery to develop an easily accessible one-stop shop of services to support the children, young people and families in the Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard community.
Post the Covid pandemic, it is our view that children and young people from our community have been disproportionately impacted from an education, mental health and welfare point of view. This is compounded by significant challenges in statutory services for children and young people, for example child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, primary care psychology etc., as well as the housing challenges and cost-of-living crisis we hear about. These issues have landed on top of a community already experiencing significant structural inequality and are impacting severely on young people and their families. Youth services are often the first port of call for families and young people when they are experiencing these challenges. We are ideally placed in the heart of communities to respond and support young people. However, we need the other services to work effectively if we are to properly support young people.
We would like to acknowledge all of the Departments that fund our one-stop shop of services as we believe this is a very effective and efficient way to provide services. Today we have two requests that will provide a significant improvement to the lives of children, young people and families in our community. The Government needs to increase resourcing to youth services which recognise, as we do, that some young people with complex needs require an intensive case-management approach. This work should not take away from the targeted group work we are funded to deliver but be in addition to our service provision. The Government should consider models of community mental health support for young people in the context of the significant problems being experienced in CAMHS and primary care psychology. There needs to be a recognition that young people would find it easier and more accessible to receive mental health support in an environment where they are comfortable. Youth services are ideally placed to offer therapeutic services to young people and their families in addition to their youth work provision, if effectively resourced.
The model we use in FamiliBase, is systemic family therapy.
We are looking to develop this to a trauma therapy centre while recognising that a whole family approach is necessary if we are to get real results and deal with intergenerational trauma. We cannot meet the demand for this service currently, due to the level of resourcing we have, but we have identified significant outcomes when we do use this service with families.
Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Kearney and invite Ms Carey to deliver her opening statement on behalf of Solas.
Ms Amy Carey:
I thank the committee for having us here today to talk about our work and the issues that our young people face. We are based in the Liberties in Dublin and we are a wraparound youth work organisation. We run a range of programmes including after-school and in-school programmes, youth work, youth justice, street work, programmes in prison and a social enterprise. Our model is one of long-term consistent intervention. We aim to provide support to the young people most in need in our community from the age of five right through to their mid-20s. A young person starts in our after-schools and is supported right through their primary education, then through the transition into secondary school through our in-school work and our UBU youth work team, which continues through their teens and into their 20s. Young people who leave school early can be supported through The Yard social enterprise and young people involved in criminal behaviour are supported through our range of justice programmes. Our model strives to provide somewhere for everyone.
One of our core values in Solas Project is love. We believe that every young person deserves to be loved. We do not give up on any young person. We are relentless in our pursuit of building long-term relationships and persistently target young people who are seen as hard to reach. No matter how challenging a young person is seen as, our wraparound model means that we are known as a place for everyone. A young person is not labelled for coming to Solas Project.
Last year I spoke to this committee as part of the Dublin 8 After School Alliance. We were advocating for the restoration of funding for after-school projects in disadvantaged communities. Sadly the situation has since been exacerbated. Young people under six are supported through early years supports and those aged ten and up are supported through youth work funding streams. However, at-risk children from age six to ten have no statutory funding to support them in their communities. Waiting to offer a young person support until they turn ten is too late. We all too often see young people under ten who have experienced significant trauma in their lives. Some have already disengaged from school and are being drawn into antisocial behaviour. Our inability to offer them the supports they need will inevitably lead to further cost to the State in the years ahead.
A key part of our approach as an organisation is working with schools. We run programmes in schools supporting young people through that transition into secondary school. In addition to the direct impact of the programmes that we run, they also ensure that every young person in the community knows Solas Project. It enables us to identify those who are high-risk in our community and offer them additional supports. Our youth work in schools is completely privately funded. Under the UBU rules, our youth work team is not allowed to work in schools as it is wrongly seen as double funding. We are part of a collective of UBU projects petitioning to allow up to 10% of our youth workers' time to take place in schools.
Finally, being based in the south-west inner city, an area experiencing significant gentrification, we face the additional challenge of space with a complete lack of suitable youth work space in the area. Our community is categorised as very disadvantaged due to high levels of poverty, substance abuse and youth crime. We are passionate about breaking the cycle of poverty and believe that youth work is central to this. However, the absence of a safe space limits the depth of our work. Historically the young people of our community have been overlooked and we believe our young people deserve a safe space where they can be supported to reach their full potential.
We are calling for three things today - funding for earlier intervention with high-risk six- to ten-year-olds; for the UBU programme to allow 10% of youth work time to be spent in schools; and for support in developing a designated youth work premises for the young people of the south-west inner city.
Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Carey and call on Mr. Perth from Connect 4 Project to give his opening statement.
Mr. Paul Perth:
I thank the committee for the invitation to present here today. I am the team leader of the Connect 4 pilot project under South Dublin County Partnership. My colleague is Grace Hill, who is co-ordinator of the Tallaght Drug & Alcohol Task Force. Connect 4 is a pilot project which uses street work to engage young people aged ten to 24 in west Tallaght. Our target group would be young people who are disconnected from community, family, and themselves, often due to drug use, poverty, poor mental health, or trauma.
Currently we believe there are huge numbers of at-risk young people not being reached by youth services in Dublin. A common phrase heard in youth work is "we work with young people where they’re at.". We believe an unacceptable percentage of youth work is not succeeding in its mission because it is failing to follow this principle. Over the years, youth work in Dublin has become increasingly based out of centres. What I mean by this is that there is a building where the youth services are set up, and young people are required to attend the centres in order to access the services. Youth workers do not tend to leave the safety of their centres, and instead hope that young people will come to them. Many young people do not want to come into these centres for many different reasons. When we invite young people into our spaces, it is always on our terms and of course we are the ones with a huge majority of the power. This creates a level of discomfort and distrust for young people who may already be distrustful of authority. In my experience, many young people tend to stop engaging with these centre-based services around the age of 14, that is if they have engaged at all.
So, once young people disengage from centre-based services, how are we as youth workers supposed to reach them? The answer, we believe, is through street work. Street work means youth workers going into the community attempting to engage with young people where they actually are, rather than hoping they will take the initiative to come into centres. This is primarily what we do at the Connect 4 project. Street work is a tool that we passionately believe is an effective way of positively engaging with a large section of our young people. We have seen incredible results through street work at Connect 4.
To give an example of one of the interventions we have made, we identified a lot of young men in west Tallaght who would have been eligible for medical cards or social welfare but for many different reasons, including a lack of confidence or undiagnosed mental health issues, had not made applications. We put in a successful funding proposal for a marquee for many different purposes, one of which was to support these young people with filling out forms. We also provided tea and hot noodles which was much appreciated. This helped to start them on the path of financial independence and self-care, and introduce them to the many training opportunities available to them. It also turned a space deemed antisocial into one that was pro-social. This has been a huge success and has allowed some of the most disconnected young people in our society the chance to reconnect. This is just one small example of the street work we do, and I have provided more examples in our written submission.
Street work shifts power back to young people. Engaging with young people in their social spaces, within their rules, allows them more opportunity to be themselves. I firmly believe that by providing more resources for street work, we will see significantly better outcomes and engagement from youth work. While youth work has become a lot more educated and skilled as a sector, we believe we are not utilising these assets to their full potential unless we leave the safety of our centres and go out to engage with young people. Through street work, we can genuinely meet young people where they are at and build these crucial relationships with them. Through these relationships, young people can become empowered to make informed choices and further change their lives.
Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Perth and invite Mr. Roe from Bluebell Youth Project to make his opening statement.
Mr. Gerard Roe:
I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to present to the committee on the current issues facing youth work and for considering our recommendations on the future of our profession. As youth workers, we do not often get these opportunities to talk about our work with decision-makers so I am grateful to have the opportunity to do this now. I am a youth worker, activist, and father from Dublin. I am a graduate of the community and youth work programme in Maynooth University and have been involved professionally in youth work for the past 15 years. I am passionate about youth work and supporting young people to reach their full potential. It is difficult and challenging, but hugely rewarding, work.
Often youth workers feel as if we are firefighting, but in reality we are just dealing with symptoms of wider social policy problems. As the country is in the grip of multiple crises - housing, drugs, health, cost of living - there has never been more of a need for youth work, as young people often are the ones who suffer the fallout of policy failures. We are asked by our funders to achieve specific outcomes for young people, and we do to a large degree, but so many of the issues that young people are experiencing are out of their control, and ours. Youth work has become so outcome-driven that it often overlooks the complexity of young people’s lives and their lived experiences and what it takes for them to engage meaningfully. The effort it takes for a youth worker to build and maintain trusting relationships is difficult to measure or quantify, yet this is the most important aspect of the work. If you have no relationship or trust with young people, you cannot run programmes and therefore you cannot deliver on predetermined outcomes. Decision-makers need to realise the importance and value of building and maintaining relationships, and should make funding decisions on this basis.
Since 2008, the youth work sector has experienced successive funding cuts.
Funding has never been restored to pre-2008 levels. The landscape has changed over the past decade. Newer challenges have arisen, and problems in communities have gotten worse. Youth workers are expected to do more to address these challenges and deliver on outcomes, but we do not have enough funding or resources to do so. These conditions have led to a problem of recruitment and retention of experienced youth workers and these workers end up transferring their unique knowledge, skills, and values to other sectors where they find better pay, terms and conditions, and pensions. It is disappointing for youth workers to see their sector in decline over the last ten years. The responsibility for youth work also keeps getting moved around Departments. We are operating without a national youth strategy, and it feels like our sector has become rudderless and lacking in leadership by those who are supposed to be responsible for driving the sector. It is no surprise that the morale of youth workers is at an all-time low, and that they are reconsidering their careers.
Youth work plays a vital role in helping the State to deliver on its responsibility to young people. It is vital that the sector is prioritised and given the resources it needs to retain valued workers. I have made a number of specific recommendations in my written submission. Broadly, it is time for the State to take responsibility for developing an interdepartmental, whole-of-government approach to youth work, and to develop a national youth strategy to this end. We need meaningful funding restoration, and better pay, conditions, and pensions for the youth workers who play such a vital role in keeping our statutory services going.
Ms Sin?ad Harris:
I manage Ronanstown youth service which is under the remit of Crosscare. Mr. Greg Tierney is our senior youth work manager. The title of our presentation today is "Leave No One Behind", so it is looking how society is moving on but we are still dealing with those young people who are being left behind. For me and the community in which I serve and work we can see the impact the pandemic and previous years of neglect and lack of appropriate and adequate services to address the real need has led us into a crisis in young people’s mental health. This is highlighted when we look at the sustainable development goals, SDGs, which all Government Departments have signed up to and think how attainable they are in a local sense. The world continues to move and grow and everyone is looking at and talking about climate action, climate change and climate justice and all we can see is young people who cannot function on a daily basis in today’s society. I ask myself whether they are going to get left behind, who is going to look after their needs and how they can make an impact locally so that they can change the future for them and their community.
If we look at the community of north Clondalkin where CAMHS is operating a skeleton service, waiting lists are two years long. Jigsaw left our community in 2019 and promised a satellite service. To date, this has still not materialised. The young people we work with have no access to real-time, easy accessible, fit for purpose youth mental health services. Young people need quick solution-focused access to mental health services. There is no under 18s dual diagnosis. A young person presenting with dual diagnosis will find it nearly impossible to be seen by a professional.
Young people in lower socio-economic communities are getting left behind because of a lack of services available to them and their families. We have noticed in the youth service that we can only hold these young people for a short time. They are becoming dependent on the staff and we do not have the training or experience to deal with clinical issues. We have nowhere to send these young people and access to private counselling or therapy is not an option.
What frightens us working in the community is that in 2007 and 2008 we had a spate of copycat suicides among our young people. It is now 2023 and while the community has engaged in the conversation around mental health and, in general, society is more aware of and open to the topic, our young people are still not receiving any additional services. If we cannot provide the generations of the future with basic coping skills and safe places to talk what hope do we have of enabling them to make longer societal changes around climate action and climate justice when their basic needs are not being met? When there are no services for them to turn to, who will look at the trauma they have encountered in their lives or who will be able to put building blocks in place so that in the future they are equipped with skills to deal with life?
I want to take this opportunity to highlight a few issues and remind people of some reports and resources that have been published around youth work. In 2012, which is a long time ago, there was a report on the economic value of the sector. It indicated that for every €1 spent on youth services the State saves €2.20. This report, Assessment of the Economic Value of Youth Work, was prepared by Indecon and published by the National Youth Council of Ireland, NYCI. What our sector is lacking is resources to be able to fund this type of valuable information. We know that youth work makes a real difference in the lives of young people and the communities they live in, but this report provides hard evidence that youth work is also value for money and makes economic sense. In 2023, the NYCI pre-budget campaign highlighted that an extra €12 million investment in youth work could provide so much but, instead, the sector got an increase of €2.4 million.
We are also asking for the professionalisation and recognition of youth work by the State and for funding and salaries to be brought in line with our counterparts in the public sector, for example, in Tusla and the HSE.
Mr. Stephen Sharpe:
The St. John Bosco Youth Centre, known locally as “The Bosco”, was established by the community in Drimnagh more than 70 years ago and has proudly provided services for generations of young people. We are located on Davitt Road opposite the Drimnagh Luas stop along the Grand Canal. Since being divested from the Catholic Church to community ownership in 1996, the centre has continually adapted and developed its services to young people and the broader community, supported by various Government bodies and user group contributions.
Currently, our centre operates seven days a week with a very diverse range of services and activities, including a Montessori school, Merchants Quay aftercare programme, English language classes, a full-time gym, a youth justice initiative for the broader Dublin 12 area and narcotics and cocaine anonymous meetings. It is also the location of the Irish Filipino consulate and it hosts numerous sports, dance, and drama groups and various other activities for all ages. In excess of 500 people access the centre each day.
I could talk in further detail about our history and current activities, but today I am here to talk about our youth work provision. Our youth work programme is a UBU-funded project and consists of a small team of two full-time youth workers and me as project leader. Last year, we had 202 young people access our programme. Our service engages young people through a broad range of programmes and supports, including our youth café, structured programme groups, and one-to-one supports. We have recently secured funding from the Dublin 12 local drugs and alcohol task force to fund a centre-based art therapist.
While the practice of youth work continues to evolve, the root antagonists of young people’s development and effective participation in society remain the same. Familial addiction, mental health issues, cultural marginalisation, low education attainment and limited life opportunities have a pernicious impact on many young people long before their initial engagement with youth services. With UBU-funded programmes limited to working with young people of ten years of age and over, many young people have already been severely impacted by difficult life circumstances prior to navigating what is aptly described by G. Stanley Hall as the “storm and stress of adolescence”.
Currently, one area of real concern our programme encounters is mental health difficulties affecting young people. Navigating the world of social media is also presenting challenges for many of our young people, and no doubt contributes to decreases in mental health and well-being.
While the St. John Bosco Youth Centre will continue to ensure our work is relevant and responsive to the needs of local young people there are challenges that impinge on the quality and effectiveness of this work. Despite significant investment, the St. John Bosco Youth Centre building is no longer adequate for the needs of the community. Our local community network, Dynamic Drimnagh, is currently lobbying for a new purpose-built youth and community facility.
Our youth work programme is currently under-resourced and with just three staff members sustains constant pressure to meet the needs of young people. Drimnagh is currently experiencing population growth, with a substantial increase expected over the coming years. It is vital that Drimnagh receives adequate resources to ensure the continued and effective delivery of services to young people. Due to changes in funding structures, the centre has, over the past ten years, lost two full-time youth education courses and a experienced a significant reduction in our after school service.
Finally, the difficulty in recruitment of youth workers is an issue affecting the sector as a whole. It is currently nearly impossible to recruit staff. This having a country-wide impact on services to young people. Our service has operated without one of our three posts since October 2022 due to this issue. I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to speak today on behalf of the St. John Bosco Youth Centre.
Mr. John Scanlon:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak. We are here to speak about the integrated care and education model in St. Ultan's. The care and education model is a response to the needs of the children of Cherry Orchard. St. Ultan's is a campus for Cherry Orchard, not just in Cherry Orchard. We cater primarily for the populations of the electoral areas A and C.
Cherry Orchard is a very disadvantaged community. Some 80% of the children who attend St. Ultan's live in the lowest quartile of disadvantage. Children grow up in a community that suffers from addiction, trauma, unemployment, high anti-social behaviour, and poor and unco-ordinated planning that still exists today.
This trauma plays out in the lives of children and presents as behaviour issues and self-esteem issues and they grow up with little hope. This trauma plays out for the community in addiction, unemployment, anti-social behaviour and fear and mistrust of authority.
The founders of St. Ultan’s, who were community-based, recognised that a different approach was required to tackle the needs of Cherry Orchard. In looking for a solution, no precedent in Ireland could be found. International models of best practice were harnessed. Education was recognised as the key to breaking disadvantage, but the social problems that existed were a major factor that took away from the drive to be educated. From there came the model of a care and education approach to meeting the needs of children and breaking the cycle of disadvantage. A formal Government decision in 2007 was instrumental in the set-up of the campus.
Over the past 16 years, a multidisciplinary team of teachers, special needs assistants, care and early year practitioners, therapists and community service staff have developed a model of working closely with each other and with other health and social care professionals and service providers with the objective of providing a combined and consistent education, care and support model for all children and families of this area.
Early intervention is the most cost-effective way to help break the cycle of disadvantage, to help each child fulfil his or her potential, and to reduce the long-term cost of social problems such as unemployment, social housing, addiction, anti-social behaviour and juvenile and adult crime. St. Ultan's Primary School is the only school in Cherry Orchard. It is a DEIS band 1 school catering for 370 children and has an autism unit with three mainstream school classes.
The St. Ultan's model is an integrated, holistic and wraparound service for the child, who is at the centre of everything we do. We meet the holistic needs of children and young people through our unique integrated approach of education and care that includes an early education centre on campus, with strong co-operation between early education practitioners and primary school teachers creating a smoother and more school-ready transfer of children to primary school. It currently caters for 92 children and the number is planned to increase to 130 next year. The model includes a care service offering social care support across campus during the school day and an after-school service for those identified as most at risk and allowing for programmes to be put in place for children with high needs. There are 52 complex children in receipt of care service each year with a further 40 requiring play therapy. There is interagency networking both within St. Ultan’s and with external agencies. There is continuous learning catering for children from as young as three months to 18 years and, in addition, with parents and families. We have a culture and arts programme. Since 2011, we have provided a nutritious hot meal for every child in the school as hunger has been a significant issue. There is a policy of local employment where over 20% of the staff of St. Ultan's are from the local community services team. We also provide parental support programmes.
We have been acknowledged by the Department and philanthropic donors, which has allowed us to run the programmes we run. We have a flat campus management structure that includes the principal, the care service manager and finance and services manager.
St Ultan’s meets the aims of the programme for Government by prioritising early years. We work with and support young people educationally and socially to give them the best chance in life to break the cycle of intergenerational disadvantage. We promote excellence and innovation in school by use of progressive and innovative approaches in implementing the primary curriculum and evidence-based programmes. We aim to tackle disadvantage in everything we do and to empower children and parents so that they can create a better future for themselves. We already make extended use of our building at evenings and weekends.
Breaking the cycle of disadvantage, in particular intergenerational disadvantage, requires an integrated approach. Working through the education system on its own is not enough. A child cannot learn if he or she is hungry, scared or tired. The needs of children and young people can only be met through a multi-agency and interagency approach. St. Ultan’s campus provides that holistic approach to meeting the needs of children. We can break the cycle of intergenerational disadvantage if we are resourced to do so.
St. Ultan’s needs resources to consolidate an integrated care and education approach. Demand for care services exceeds the allowed quota. Managers and staff work to an integration agenda in addition to their other duties. The campus has two boards simply because it is restricted by the Education Act. We would therefore ask the committee to consider the following. I extend an invitation to the committee to visit St. Ultan's as it is best experienced in person. We need to be properly resourced to support the children of Cherry Orchard, including access to a multidisciplinary team on site in St. Ultan's. We need support to work with parents and families to enhance the work we do with the children. The model of integrated care and education needs to be formally recognised by Government. The Government needs to provide a targeted, holistic and co-ordinated approach to the area of Cherry Orchard rather than the individual unco-ordinated responses that exist at present. We need political support and action to renew our mission in the challenging times ahead.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am filling in for the Chair momentarily. I thank all our witnesses for their concise and compelling testimony today.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I am a big believer that we need to take conversations in here right down to that, so whether it involves community work or whatever the sector is, it needs to have insight into what is happening on the ground. Today's presentations are as close to the ground as possible in the absence of young people themselves. I was happy to see the themes that emerged. One of those themes is resourcing while another is societal issues, which have been namechecked by each presentation, be they poverty, trauma and the intergenerational impact of trauma and mental health. It is really encouraging to have a committee focusing on those things instead of the conversations that happened to date, which have focused on the young people as if they are the ones failing in terms of how poverty, mental health and neurodiversity manifest themselves in unequal conditions and young people are then seen as the problem. Today's presentations truly reflect what the issues are in society in terms of what young people have to contend with.
Another theme that came up was the culture of youth work, which has become a bugbear for me. I first encountered what I feel was real youth work when I worked in Bluebell, which Mr. Roe would be aware of, when I ran the drugs services there and the type of interventions that were necessary in a community experiencing not only a significant amount of upheaval but loss of life and violence. There was no fear in working with young people who were experiencing the harshest of conditions. This has been lost somewhat in many youth sectors around Ireland. It goes to what Mr. Perth was talking about, and I might get him to address this, namely, the idea that outreach somehow was not needed anymore when everybody got their centre or space, and that idea of working with people in their own communities, whether that is hanging around the Centra while they are wrecking everybody else's head - that does not matter - or at a bonfire or at whatever corner while people are smoking weed and selling drugs. They are where we need to be but I feel it is not happening enough anymore. Will Mr. Perth discuss the importance of working with young men in particular but also young women who nobody seems to want to work with and, if anything, are at risk of being scapegoated in the conversation about young people? Will Mr. Perth elaborate on how he has engaged with young people in that way?
Mr. Paul Perth:
It is good to see Senator Ruane and Deputy Ward. It is no coincidence that they are both here talking about this and inviting us here. What we do is street work, primarily. I have been engaged in different types of youth work and I am passionate about youth work in general. I am not here to testify that street work is better than centre-based youth work. I believe there is a place for all forms of youth work.
Our young people have so many different complex needs, including those relating to mental health and generational trauma - all the things everybody else has talked about. There is a major disconnect. I do not know if it is a fear. I see and know what the Senator is talking about. I spent years in different meetings, as did other people, listening to youth workers saying that when young people hit a certain age, they stopped working with them. I and other youth workers said it was actually us who stopped working with them.
I will talk about the past 11 months in Tallaght. When I first went up there and got the job, there were some areas in west Tallaght that people referred to as hot spots - I am sure we all know them - and said not to go into them. They said that it would be mad to do so and that we would not get out alive, and all these kinds of comments. We have risk assessments and we follow protocols. We have all the code names, code words and everything like that. We wear high-visibility jackets, and people identify us as youth workers. We do all that and we have never once been threatened or felt threatened. I am six feet tall and have a bald head. This is sometimes to my advantage and sometimes to my disadvantage. A fellow might think I want to have a go off him or else he might run away from me, depending on what kind of humour he is in. I work as part of a diverse team, and young people are so open. I say this a lot and I mean it: I am passionate about what I do.
The young people of west Tallaght, and I am going to talk on their behalf, have lost of stories. Many of them are so disconnected that they have no one to tell those stories to. They cannot walk into the centre. Some of them are barred from it. They cannot come in because they will engage in antisocial behaviour. Until they can respect the centre, they cannot come in. I understand that kind of thinking. I do not believe in it, but I understand safety. I have never once been threatened nor have I felt threatened on the streets of Tallaght. I refer to Jobstown, the Mac Uilliam estate and places like that. We had a lad start with us a couple of weeks ago. He said he used to put the foot down when he passed a certain place in Tallaght because he was afraid of his life. He is in there now and laughing, joking and meeting people where they are really at.
We engage with young men and women. On a Monday night, as a quick example, we engage with around 30 young people. Some of them sell drugs and some of them will never need our service because they will do fine by themselves. The school will look after them. We just create safe spaces for an hour where there is no pecking order. People can just go for the same ball with the same intensity and aggression and then get up and get on with it. This is what youth work brings: a level opportunity for everyone to be themselves and to tell their stories. It gives us an opportunity to talk to them and to treat them like people, like humans. We might signpost them on somewhere else or maybe just listen to them.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Perth. Can I continue, particularly as there are only two of us?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Grand. I was looking at the clock going around and thinking that I would ignore it.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am hardly likely to say "No" to Senator Ruane.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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In looking at the societal issues, I will turn to Mr. Roe. Regarding investing in youth work, it can be seen from the work of this committee and the Minister's portfolio that there are many things to contend with in this context. It feels like the topic of youth work has not had any airing in terms of focus. I refer not only to investment but also to focused conversation in the context of understanding what youth work is and what the future of youth work looks like. From the perspective of a youth worker, does it feel like there is a disconnect or a lack of understanding regarding the importance of youth work? How can a State or the Government of the day come around to accepting the importance of youth work? This aspect ties into resourcing as well. How can we better communicate this message concerning the importance of youth work? Youth work is not going to solve poverty, even though it might solve an individual's experience of it. All these interventions may help individuals to overcome situations, but the State is responsible for helping everyone in situations to overcome them and for whole communities being able to flourish. As a youth worker, what are Mr. Roe's thoughts on this matter? Does he feel the sector has been left behind a little? What could and should be done to ensure we are progressing as a country and put decent investment into youth work?
Mr. Gerard Roe:
I thank Senator Ruane. That is a good question. We only have to look at each election cycle lasting five years. Then there is another election, and you end up asking yourself where youth work is going to end up. I can only look at the recent example. This used to be the Joint Committee on Children, Disability, Equality and Integration. We had to fight to get the word "Youth" included in the title. It was forgotten about. Before that, it was the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We were getting somewhere then because there was an actual Department dedicated to this area. I do not know about before that time.
As I mentioned in my submission, we are operating without a youth strategy. It is being forgotten about. We are living in challenging and unprecedented times. These are cynical times we are living in, but we cannot forget about our young people. I would not like to be growing up now. Would Mr. Sharpe like to be a teenager again? I do not think so. Young people are up against it now, and we are moving too fast. Youth work fills a void that things like school, the justice system and Tusla cannot. We are like the janitor mopping up the mess here in the middle but we are not recognised for what we actually do. Youth work is crucial and has never been more needed.
I might sound biased, but I am at the coalface. I see the realities young people are living with, and it is my job to communicate that to the committee. There are communities which are probably not affected in the way young people are where we work. Ireland definitely has communities that are insulated from these problems. We are not talking about those young people because their needs are met. We are talking about the thousands of young people in this State who have unmet needs. Those unmet needs are not down to the poor choices parents are making. It comes back to what I said. It is the failure of the State and its policies. We are not reviewing them.
Going back several years, a value-for-money report on youth work was published, as if to say that children and young people are not worth investing in. I would love to see a value-for-money report done on the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 and its application since then. We have spent billions and not one outcome has resulted from it. Give us that money. Put it into youth work and real outcomes will be seen. That is my answer to that question. I am sorry I got very passionate and animated, but this is how strongly I feel about youth work.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I think the value-for-money conversation is an important one that we are not having. Someone touched on it in the context of predetermined outcomes. It may have been in Mr. Roe's submission.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I refer to the idea of the neoliberal market language being placed on something that cannot be measured in those terms.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Youth work cannot be measured in those same ways. It is the same with community and addiction work. As well as being able to challenge the investment made in youth work and how young people are being treated, there must also be a real conversation about the structures the State is imposing in respect of how we speak about this work in the first place.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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This is very important. I thank Mr. Roe. I will hand over to Deputy Ward. I will come back in later.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is important that we have opportunities to have good and wide-ranging conversations, but I am going to move on to Deputy Ward now. I will then come back to Senator Ruane, so there is no problem there. I call Deputy Ward.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Senator Ruane. It is good to see her. This is my second meeting today. Earlier, I was at the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health where the subject of dual diagnosis was discussed. Ms Harris touched on this topic also. This is important. At the meeting in question, we discussed community-based organisations working on the ground directly with the people affected by the decisions we are making in this Parliament. To have two conversations like this around youth work in the one-day is fantastic. Ms Harris asked me if anything comes out of this committee and if anything really changes. We only really see this outcome when we are working on the coalface and see the changes that will make a difference to the young people we represent. I would like to think that sometimes this place does work and does bring about the changes Ms Harris wants. She is preaching to the converted here.
I am a product of probably one of the first informal youth diversion projects. It was 30 years ago and involved Ronanstown youth centre. I am showing my age now. It was a facility that was there and open for me. It was targeted to me, and to others like me, who were disengaged and disconnected. We had nowhere to go. We were probably barred from many of the centres. I was out of the football teams at the time because of my behaviour. I did not fit into the norms of society back then. The community then reached out, wrapped its arms around me, looked after me and gave me a start. I have always been very grateful for that.
I was listening to Ms Harris when she was talking about youth suicide in our area, in north Clondalkin in 2000. I remember it well. I get emotional when I think about it. Many of the children or young people who died were children of friends of mine. I remember the impact that it had on the community and how frightened we were as a community about where the next one would come from and who it would be. Any time something happened, you would bring your kids in, minding your kids and keeping an eye on them. But I was never so proud of how the community engaged and everyone put their loving arms around one another at that time. The outcome of that was Jigsaw. Jigsaw was absolutely fantastic in our area until it decided it would not be in our area any more. We had our battles over that. Mental health came up a number of times today in relation to the lack of mental health services across the different communities in here today.
One question I have relates to something that Ms Harris, Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Roe mentioned around recognising youth workers. I acknowledge that Senator Ruane spoke about it a minute ago. At present, youth projects are holding young people in many areas, including that of mental health, as I mentioned because the services are not there, in judicial areas because the Garda diversion projects are probably full or are not always there and in respect of early school leavers. Moreover, poverty underpins all that, as we know. The people in the youth projects are those in our communities who are dealing with that daily. There are challenges around not recognising youth workers. Ms Harris said that they are asking for the professionalisation and recognition of youth work by the State and for funding and salaries to be brought in line with counterparts in the public sector such as Tusla and the HSE so that there is parity of esteem and recognition. What would it look like? How would it benefit our communities and the young people they represent? I know the answer but I want to give people the opportunity to put it on the record.
Ms Sin?ad Harris:
It is even in connection to the problems we are having in recruitment in the sector. We are not seen as an attractive sector for people to get involved in. We work late nights and on weekends. We are dealing with all the traumas going on in someone’s life on a daily basis. You have to take time out in the day to reset yourself or have a conversation with yourself about what you are facing, what you have listened to and what you have heard about that day. We are the scapegoats for many of the statutory agencies, such as Tusla and the HSE, in our communities. They might pass a referral on or phone you. The youth workers are the ones picking up all the pieces. They are doing all the hard work and all the donkey work. They are the ones engaging with the schools, the family, the Garda, going to the courts with the young people, sitting on the meitheal meetings and we are not getting the recognition. Take the meitheals. Nine times out of ten, the youth worker knows the young person. They know the triggers for the young person and what is happening in their life where the social worker is just ticking a box. Even when we sit at those meitheals, we are not seen in the same light as the social worker, school principal or the garda who has been the one to come down hard on that young person. We are the people who are there supporting that young person. As our service in Ronanstown has a family support service now as well, we have a kind of holistic approach when there are meitheals, in that the youth worker is there and the family support worker is there so we are supporting the whole family; not just the young person but the parents are involved as well.
We need the recognition to get more funding. Funding is the big issue. We are under-resourced and people are leaving the sector because there are more attractive jobs in other sectors. People are losing the grá for youth work. We would always say that it is nearly like a vocation. Those of us who are in youth work a long time are not there because the pay is good. We are there because we are invested in the community we work in and are invested in the young people. You see the impact that one good adult can have on a young person’s life. You can see when young people walk in the door with the hood up or you meet them out on the street and they will not come into the centre but then they walk out of a centre and they have an apprenticeship or they come back and they have kids. You can see the longevity of what youth work does and it takes a long time. Trying to measure youth work is nearly impossible because you could have a young person who came into a service six or seven years ago and you might not think you made any impression on his or her life but then such people come back in and might say, “Remember that time you sat down with me and gave me a cup of tea and you had a game of pool? That changed my life.” And you think, that changed your life? That is how simple it can be to change some person’s life. It is definitely around investment. We need to be put up there. We need to be at these things more often. We need to come together more as a sector and bang the same drum and get out more the work we do and the recognition that is needed for it.
Mr. Stephen Sharpe:
Senator Ruane touched on the whole neoliberal approach to youth work and about measurement. As for certain aspects of UBU, there is a responsibility on the youth work sector to ensure we are focused and doing what we need to do but they are missing the essence of it in what they are trying to capture at the moment.
I will give an example from the Bosco centre. Going back ten years, we had an after-schools programme, a youth work programme and an early school leavers programme. We can have a young person coming in from the age of six or seven years and he or she can go right through to 18 and 19 and be engaged in the programme with the same workers. Ms Boyne is sitting beside me. She is up in Dundalk and will be a qualified youth worker in a couple of weeks. She has been in the Bosco since she was seven. We have a gym run by a guy called George McCabe of G-Force Fitness. George was the first young person I worked with in the centre when I went in there 18 years ago as a youth worker. There was that continuity of service, contact and relationship and that is being dismantled. We lost a huge chunk of our after-schools programme. Our early school leavers programme is gone. Now we function with two youth workers and a project leader. It is a lack of acknowledgement of what we do as a sector and its importance in the lives of young people. Our work is now more reactive than proactive. It is constantly reacting and trying to clean up issues. We are trying to support families and young people. Personally, in the Bosco, we talk about being youth workers, working with young people, but it is much broader than that in terms of families and advocacy. There is so much involved in it. There are definitely issues around resourcing. And it is about recognising that the ground starts to inform the policy. Sometimes, I look at some of the national organisations and it does not seem to fit with what I see. I can only speak for myself but there is definitely a gap.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I get that about that kind of bottom-up approach. The people who are here today are informing us but the disconnection is there from the top down as well. I get that.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Can Mr. Sharpe stay with that a second because we are getting into the weeds of it now which is where we want to go. We have plenty of time and I will let Ms Kearney in again, there is no problem.
Can Mr. Sharpe unpick what he said a little? He talks about that gap. Can he give it to me warts and all? Is he saying that national organisations, statutory organisations and Departments are not getting what the youth workers are doing on the ground or have no conceptual understanding of what it is that they are doing on the ground and therefore, there is a mismatch between policy and what they expect of youth workers and how the funding flows and what they are actually doing on the ground? He does not have to couch his language here.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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If it comes back to me, I will say it; it is grand.
Mr. Stephen Sharpe:
Our issues are day-to-day issues. Trauma was mentioned. I mean young people not having enough food or violence in the home. There are all these day-to-day issues that are directly related to poverty, unemployment, mental health or addiction. People are trying to get that young person through the day to the next day to try and support them at this level. Then at a higher level, it does not seem to match.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am conscious Ms Kearney wanted to come in.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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This is an example of collaboration. We are working together now.
Ms Fiona Kearney:
In terms of the recognition of the sector, there are a couple of things from our perspective. That was the original question, although we have moved into consideration of another piece. As everybody mentioned, the fundamental point is that youth work is based on the relationships between young people and youth workers. Everything we do is based on that. It is why the way we run services and do things is so different. It is about the people and the relationships that are built. The sector is losing experienced and good quality youth workers. At a basic level, the terms and conditions for youth workers need to be reviewed. We need to recognise that the starting point is that relationship. We want to retain good people in the sector.
We must also consider change when talking about the recognition of the sector. We talked about centre-based models, street work and all of that. Things have changed for young people because of Covid-19. Things have changed in our statutory services and in respect of societal issues. As those things change, they change the situation for young people. Things are worse for young people on the ground. We are trying to deal with the day-to-day issues that young people face. We want to run groups and drop-ins. That is all the stuff we are encouraged to do. We are sometimes asked why we work with all the bold kids. We are actually asked that question. That is who we are supposed to work with.
We need to think about adding to youth services and not waiting until young people interact with the justice system. We need a case management model to allow us to free youth workers so they can be responsive on a day-to-day basis. Consider young people who come to us because there has been violence in their homes. They are in bits. Perhaps they brought their little sisters to school but are not going into school themselves. Those young people need assistance from their youth workers there and then. They cannot be told they need to go into a group now because it does not work like that. We need to be able to be responsive to young people in the contexts they are currently in. We need to recognise that. The statutory services are not working for young people. The child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS, does not work for our young people. It is a centre-based model and it does not work. It did not work even before the situation in respect of waiting lists arose. We are trying to drag young people to appointments. We are spending hours going out to their homes to get them. They are then being discharged because they are being told they are not engaging with medication even though there are no reviews or therapeutic services in place. We need to recognise that youth workers are doing all of these things, connecting young people with these statutory services that do not work. We need the time on the ground to do this. We hope the politicians will sort out all the biggest statutory and societal issues and let us do the work on the ground. However, we need to be resourced to do that. We need to be able to be responsive as youth workers or case workers, whatever we are, alongside all the other stuff. The other stuff, including drop-ins, groups and all the issues-based stuff, is great. We will meet all the outcomes of the UBU model through that but we may not meet them through this. We need to think about crisis management and day-to-day services. Ultimately, that work, if we are allowed to do it, gets young people to a certain point, whether it takes place at the Canal Communities Regional Service, the house in Cherry Orchard or in the streets by the shops in Ballyfermot. Wherever we need to do it, we will, but we need time, space, resources and the ability to be responsive. The sector needs to change in response to the current issues we are facing. The first step is to recognise the value of youth work and pay youth workers properly.
Mr. Paul Perth:
I will offer a real-life example in response to what Mr. Sharpe said. I was at a meeting in Leinster House two weeks ago with some politicians. I was grateful to be able to speak on behalf of the young people with whom I work. I am sure everyone here has heard a story about young people, male or female, between the ages of 14 and 16, who are allowed to smoke weed because mum and dad have noticed it calms them down and they are okay. When we were growing up, we were told parents do not mind their children drinking in their presence because they know what they are drinking and where they are. The same thing is now happening with weed. I am sure everyone has experience of such a situation. When I brought that point up in a conversation with politicians in Leinster House, I was stopped. That is the disconnect. One of the Deputies told me it was some statement I was making. I was shocked that he was shocked. I and everyone else in this room know that young people are self-medicating. Families, mothers and fathers, are saying it is okay because when their child is stoned and calm, the dynamic of the house works better. The child sleeps, as do his or her siblings. The child might or might not go to school but things are better.
The media create fear in communities. As a sector, we have a responsibility in that regard. I know there are people here from Ballyfermot and they will know that not every group is a gang. It seems to me, as a street worker, that when I approach a group of young people, they ought to be planning the next robbery of a Brink's Ireland van. The case is, in fact, that some of them are talking about Senator Ruane, Deputy Ward and politics. They are having critical conversations. We do not only need to work to change and empower young people. We need to work with the communities. Community groups and youth workers need to come together and try to work on the fear in communities. A lot of things that hit the news on television and radio are untrue. A lot of it is not real. It is manufactured for headlines. There is not as much intimidation where I work as people are led to believe. That is important to note.
Ms Grace Hill:
I wanted to touch on the issue from the perspective of a drugs task force. What Ms Harris said earlier touched me. She said they do not get recognition as youth workers. I feel a bit of an imposter because I am not a youth worker but there is a connection there that is part of the reason I was so passionate about having a street work programme in Tallaght. That was the missing link in the chain for us. There is a considerable amount of youth services but nobody to go out and talk to the kids at the Topshop, at Kiltalown or wherever. Schools are connecting to us and asking us to come in and talk, to introduce ourselves to the young people who they know are going to need us. They are desperate for some connection. There is a real lack of positive role models in the community. It is obvious that a cross-departmental approach is required. These issues touch on health, justice and youth affairs. This committee and its equivalent Department might be blamed but there are surely other Departments that must share the burden. Part of the reason to have a street work programme and provide sufficient youth services is to break down the stigma, as Mr. Perth said.
There are also issues in respect of intergenerational drug use. We do not want young people who cannot get help, or adequate help and support, and who cannot get somebody to come out and talk to them where they are, to go down the same road their parents might have gone down or which their friends are now going down. These issues do not require a youth work approach alone. The response needs to be cross-departmental. That is one thing I would love to see coming out of this committee meeting and the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use. I would love to see suggestions coming from the citizens' assembly that touch on these issues, that try to prevent people from self-medicating and which will put supports in place for young people who feel disconnected and have a need to self-medicate.
I fully support what has been said about recruitment issues and the lack of funding to the sector. Our project is a pilot, which are we are desperately seeking to sustain and develop out. It is needed in every community. There are excellent youth services out there but many of the young people who use substances and engage in drug dealing and drug-related crime will never go into those centres. I understand there are barriers in terms of the UBU stuff. Perhaps those projects do not go far enough. All of these are complex issues that are impacting young people and are challenging for them. We can see the issues through a number of different lenses, including, of course, the prevention of the use of drugs and the provision of support to people who feel a need to self-medicate.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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This has been a compelling and educational meeting. I have been a Deputy for some time and this is the first opportunity I have had to listen to perspectives such as those of our guests. I have a particular interest in CAMHS because I do a lot of work in that area, as does this committee. CAMHS has come up as a red light in each of our guests' submissions.
Ms Kearney was the first to bring it up in relation to primary care psychology and Ms Carey, I think, brought it up as well in relation to the at-risk children between the ages of six and ten. I just want to get a clearer understanding of the witnesses’ perspectives. I will ask Ms Carey specifically because she referenced the six to ten group. What is her perspective on kids' access to CAMHS and the six to ten age cohort piece? There is a gap in my knowledge there, if she could please fill that in.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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There are a couple of people nodding in assent. It is a common feature. Okay.
Ms Amy Carey:
That is the first piece. CAMHS provides for and has a specific role. I know people who work in CAMHS and are passionate about their jobs. They provide a therapeutic space for a very particular type of young person. Many of the young people we are working with, from what I am hearing in the room, are those who have experienced significant trauma, which is not something I have seen CAMHS respond well to. Somebody with a mental health diagnosis is where CAMHS can play a part and be effective. Perhaps Ms Menton wants to add to that. That is my response on the CAMHS piece.
On the six- to ten-year-olds, perhaps Ms Lowry wants to come in on that.
Ms Leanne Lowry:
I will give an example, as Mr. Perth did. I am youth worker, so I engage with people from the age of ten. As a project and in the Liberties community, we are struggling with support for our six- to ten-year-olds. Currently, Solas Project engages with six- to ten-year-olds but they access that through a private fund that we fundraise for to allow engagement with that cohort. When I meet a ten-year-old, sometimes, as Ms Kearney said, they cannot just come in and go into the programmes as outlined through the UBU fund because they are not at a level where they can. Already, by the age of ten, they have disengaged from school, they are involved in antisocial behaviour and they are smoking weed daily. This is the real-life story of an 11-year-old who we are working with at the minute. We just do not know how to engage them in the youth work process as we are prescribed to do it because they do not fit within the targets or remit that we have been given. Similar to what other speakers said, that provision works for some young people, which is good and has a place in youth work. However, there is a gap for that young person who has gone beyond a point of that level of engagement. We need a more intensive support. We need to get there earlier. Ten is too late in their experience.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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That is utterly depressing but it is important we hear that. I wish to unpick that a little bit more. Where are the statutory agencies in that process? Again, we need to hear it warts and all.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Ms Harris said it earlier.
Ms Leanne Lowry:
We are the person who sits beside the young person at those meetings. We are the people who walk to the meetings with them and their parents. We leave the meeting and we go for the hot chocolate after the meeting with that young person. The statutory agencies are there but it is the unique relationship the youth worker has that allows us to go further. We do not have the resource and remit to go further and that is what we are calling for today.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Fair enough. What I would love to see arising from this session is that we crystalise, synopsise or create a synopsis of everything that we heard today. We should put all of the submissions together perhaps to form the basis of a submission directly to the Minister, bring the Minister in here and go through each of the line items that were addressed today to see if we can, to use a culchie expression, take up the cudgels for the witnesses.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What is that?
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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You of all people should know what a cudgel is. Ms Menton was going to say something.
Ms Susan Menton:
I am sure we will be talking about the integrated model of care in education in a few minutes but my background is youth and community work. That is the approach we take within St. Ultan’s campus with young people.
Relationship has been mentioned a couple of times. The value of that is so important. That relationship is what other people do not get. We are asked to sit into boxes, so to speak. There is much frustration around funding criteria of age groups and so forth. They do not box off into little age groups. They do not stop at six, need something at seven or need something at one stage around ten. There needs to be a continuum across the way.
Returning to CAMHS, which was the original question, it is one thing not being able to get a young person into CAMHS; it is another thing now that the system changed and you have to go through GPs. There is no GP available. I know there are other people here from Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard. It is one of the crises we have at the minute. We talked about other societal things that affect youth work. That is one of them that is absolutely critical for young people and families trying to get their young people support in mental health services.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is not just in Dublin; it is everywhere. I am from Cork and we have the same challenges there that exist here. It is the same thing. Looking at the system, when the child, person or young person presents in, say, a judicial scenario, there is a guardian ad litem. I do not see why there could not be some sort of a similar model where the child has an advocate when interfacing. I do not see why people, such as the witnesses, could not fit into that role and have that properly resourced. That is perhaps something we as a committee should consider.
Regarding the terms and conditions of employment, recruitment and retention, and I think Mr. Roe spoke specifically on that, in terms of the witnesses’ employer-employee representatives and the terms and conditions of employment, where is the conversation happening in relation to a rate for the job, given that it is antisocial hours, all hours and probably Mondays to Sundays, depending on who is calling and when? Where is the recognition of what I would call the piecemeal? Every job has a value. Our job has a value. Civil Service jobs have value. Civil and public servants were referenced specifically, for instance. There is a rate for the job. It seems that the witnesses’ sector operates on a very ad hocbasis without any formalised, structured process of engagement with the architecture of the State, that is, the Labour Relations Commission and so on. How are the witnesses organised? If they are not organised, how do they become organised?
Mr. Gerard Roe:
I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for another good question. Youth workers have, on the ground, taken it upon themselves to try to address this and establish something like what Tusla and social care have – a career that protects them. Youth work does not really have that. There are different youth work bodies around the country which all pay differently and offer different pay scales. That is where it stops. If you want your pot of gold, you will not go into youth work, as someone mentioned. People are drawn to it because they like working with young people. It is more vocational. They are happy to accept that and they are going in with that knowledge they will be on a pay scale. However, then they get older and everything else. They are doing this without a pension as well. It is challenging, difficult work. Every year, it takes its pound of flesh from them, so they want some sort of reward. I just think this has all caught up on people. The goalposts are moving and the landscape is changing. Society is different now and it is moving at such a fast pace that, while perhaps we did not think like that before, we have been trying to get organised. Youth workers themselves are coming together. It is not being led by any organisation. If anything, it has to be done separately from the organisations and organised independently away from them because the old argument will come down about not to be doing that because the funding could be cut, and all these kinds of things. It is that kind of culture. At least, that is what we see.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Looking at the childcare sector, the previous Minister actively encouraged people to join a trade union so that an employment regulation order, ERO, could be put in place for a sector. Could that be looked at similarly for the witnesses’ sector as well?
Mr. John Scanlon:
The reality is that most of the youth work that happens, including in our case, is done by voluntary organisations. They are charities with voluntary directors. Everything is channelled through that framework and, as stated, the funder sets out the terms and conditions. People are told that they must fit in a particular box or the proposal will not work and their funding will be pulled. The fact it all goes through a voluntary channel takes some of the pressure off the State. Of course it does. The terms and conditions for people are not as good, the service does not cost as much to deliver and there is far more value for money for the State, as a previous speaker mentioned. That issue should be addressed.
Mr. Stephen Sharpe:
The issues within recruitment have been coming down the road for a while. We could see them coming a couple of years ago. One of the suggestions we made to the City of Dublin Youth Services Board was to develop some sort of internship or apprenticeship programme. I was doing youth work before I was qualified to do it. Back then, community employment schemes were a great way for people to get their first experience of that type of work. That is not really the case any more. It is more about younger people doing a degree and then coming out to work without having any real experience. We have a small team and we need to employ someone with experience. Having a number of positions around the country that would give people a chance to spend a year or two in an internship could start to increase the numbers with that experience. The other problem is that positions do not often become available because it is a small sector. People are not going to wait around and will instead move into other aspects of work.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses. Does the Leas-Chathaoirleach wish to resume the Chair at this point?
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I do not mind.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I have another commitment to which I must attend. Before I vacate the Chair, I would like to get members' agreement to synopsise the issues that have arisen today.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We should do a report on the subject.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Yes, we should do a report and then ask the Minister to come back before us. There has been a lot of good discussion today.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We are due to have representatives of the statutory organisations, including the City of Dublin Youth Services Board, before the committee in the coming weeks.
Ms Sin?ad Harris:
The statutory organisations, including the City of Dublin Youth Services Board, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, are all singing from different hymn sheets. That is where the disconnect arises. Even the statutory bodies that are funders are not in connection with each other and are not giving the same message to the different projects. In Dublin city, service providers will get one message, while people in Tallaght or Ronanstown might be getting a different message. There is a total disconnect.
Mr. Paul Perth:
Not only is there a disconnect, it is dog eat dog for funders. If we want to set up a pilot project, there is a huge amount of work to be done to enter an area because doing so threatens somebody else's funding. There is a politics to it that is unreal. We have talked about this a lot over the past 11 months. There is politics involved in trying to manoeuvre one's way into an area without stepping on anyone's toes. This is in a community where we are all working together under the banner of helping, supporting and empowering young people. People have to watch their p's and q's. We have to think about whether a young person is already being worked with by someone else and whether we should talk to that young person. I am being serious here. It is nearly a question of who owns these young people. These are real conversations we must have. There is one young girl I spoke to previously to whom I can no longer speak. I have to avoid her because of the repercussions of doing a small intervention with her. I am not talking about anything therapeutic but just something really simple. It is dog eat dog in terms of the different funding strands.
Ms Fiona Kearney:
The model of funding for community and voluntary sector organisations is set up to be competitive. A small bit of money is put out there and we are all competing for it. In the next breath, we are being asked to work together in an inter-agency approach. That does not work. There must be a reconsideration of the funding model.
The really important point on which I wanted to come back relates to CAMHS. I cannot stop talking about this because of the impact it is having on young people and on primary care psychology. In my community of Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard, there is a waiting list of three and a half years to access primary care psychology and a six-month waiting list for CAMHS. However, it is not just about the waiting lists. We often refer children at seven years of age. With boys and girls of that age, we start to see whatever is going on for them manifesting in their behaviour. We refer them but by the time they get a response from primary care psychology, their needs have increased. We have done what we can with the family locally and all of that. Then there is a referral to CAMHS. When the children get in the door of CAMHS, they are not getting a therapeutic service. Young people are getting prescriptions, if that is what is required. We really need to think about trauma and its connection to mental health diagnoses, which is something CAMHS says it does not deal with. A lot of trauma ends up in a mental health diagnosis. There is a huge crossover there.
We are not sorting out CAMHS and primary care psychology for the immediate future. I ask the committee to consider the models of community mental health provision. We need to be able to do something really quickly, such as piloting ten or 12 projects around the country to provide mental health services alongside youth services, where a young person is comfortable with that approach. The Jigsaw model is considered a level 2 intervention with primary care psychology before a young person gets to CAMHS. I would argue that the youth services are better placed to deliver that service. We have built the relationship with the children and their family, done the crisis intervention, met them on the street and brought them so far. The next part is proper recovery. That is the bit we can do if we are given the funding to offer mental health provision alongside youth services. I would really like the committee to consider that as an immediate response to what is going on in CAMHS.
Ms Sin?ad Harris:
We can see how that could work. We are always taking about this in north Clondalkin. When Jigsaw was involved, it started a conversation around mental health within the community. The Jigsaw people were in the schools and the conversation was happening. However, they were not really meeting the needs of the young people with whom we were dealing. We would send them over and the Jigsaw people would make a telephone call and then send them off somewhere else or send them back to their GP. These young people are dealing with trauma and bigger issues than relationship breakups, fallouts with parents or whatever. While it was a good service, it did not really meet the needs of those young people. If someone based within a youth service two or three days a week is on hand at the crisis intervention level meeting, engaging with the young people where they are at and while they are in that crisis, it would be life-changing.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The gatekeeping that goes with CAMHS is appalling.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I have a number of questions and I hope I can get to them all. I will try to do so.
Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I think Senator Ruane is saying, "Try and stop me."
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The conversation about funding is very important and so is the discussion around the territory of youth work. There is a perception of the young people being the threat but when people go into a community, they realise they are not the threat at all. It is other workers or organisations one has to be watchful of, rather than the young people who are so vilified. That is very scary. If someone is getting two or three interventions, it is obviously about a need for collaboration more than warning people away from working with particular groups. It just does not make sense to me. There is then the conversation around how to know whether something is a vocation for people versus a profession. Although I completely agree regarding parity of pay, we need to be very careful in that when a sector is completely professionalised, it pushes out the local knowledge of the local young people. Who will be willing to take a risk on them?
It comes back to the youth apprenticeship aspect, which is so important. When I was hired to work with young people who were using heroin, I was not a youth worker or a drugs worker at the time. That would not happen now. I was 17 years of age when Fr. Liam came to me and said I was the gateway to accessing those young people. I was only three or four years ahead of them and was not long out of my own chaotic drug use and my own criminality. Everybody else had a judgment apart from Fr. Liam. He was not judging me; he was only seeing potential. That gets to the crux of it. How can there be a relationship if people are carrying judgment into all their interactions with the people with whom they are supposed to be working? It ties into that comment about being shocked that parents would allow a particular amount of drug use because it is safer than the alternative. When people do not understand that, it seems like a big, scary thing. For many of us, however, it is quite a normal thing. That is the distance between what is happening on the ground and what is happening at a national level.
I will name-check some of the issues that stand out to me that may need to be addressed. If I do not, they will not end up in the report. The witnesses can tell me whether they are issues we should explore. Under the youth work strategy, we are looking at 18- to 24-year-olds. Adulthood is a consideration officially when it comes to the justice system or being able to intervene or advocate for a young person. All of a sudden, the young person is deemed to be old enough.
We can no longer deal with that young person by making phone calls to adult mental health services or whatever he or she might be engaged in. How much of an issue is this? It probably ties into Deputy Sherlock's comments about guardians ad litemand advocacy. What does intervention look like and what needs to be addressed in terms of 18- to 24-year-olds, especially in mental health services? HSE adult mental health services will only see you if you are about to kill yourself or are experiencing psychosis. They do not want to know about any mental health issues outside of those. What special youth work intervention is needed for 18- to 24-year-olds?
The representatives from St. Ultan's might comment on my next questions, which relate to education. Through my work in prisons, I am conscious of the large number of young neurodivergent men who did not have access to any form of intervention while in education and ended up in prison interacting with the criminal justice system. As they engage in the world with unmet needs, they suddenly become kids who need interventions, but the world sees them as criminals. Where do they pass from people who need intervention to people who should be in prison without any understanding of what is happening? Has St. Ultan's experience of this?
My next question is on minority groups. Youth work and society are changing, but how have the models and resourcing of youth work progressed in terms of culturally appropriate youth work and ensuring we are providing adequate interventions? Intervening is difficult when you are not being resourced because you cannot move into the creative space to examine the cultural element. Will any of the representatives comment on this matter as it relates to minority groups? FamiliBase would be in and out of Labre Park working with Travellers. Where do minority groups fall into youth work strategies and in the composition of youth workers? I constantly speak about social class and ensuring that people from a certain social class are in particular professions. The same needs to be said about ensuring representation in the form of Traveller and black youth workers. How much does this issue impact on culturally appropriate youth work?
My final question is on youth apprenticeships. They are important. Some work was done on them recently, but people have since washed their hands of them and said that they cannot support them. I do not know whether Mr. Sharpe and I are speaking about the same issue, but the information I have received is that whichever Department was taking responsibility has said it cannot provide youth work apprenticeships because it cannot guarantee funding for four years. Am I correct?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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The idea. There is work-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I will need to double-check my information about the Departments. It is an amazing idea. As a young person, I basically had an unofficial apprenticeship in my community. It is important. Be it the Department Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, which our committee relates to, the Department of Education or the Department of Social Protection, someone needs to take responsibility for youth work apprenticeships and provide multi-annual funding so that young people can come up through the ranks and move from being youth leaders into working in their own communities. There is a lack of judgment if people are from the same community. People do not judge themselves.
I have said a great deal, so whoever sees the need to comment on it should feel free to do so.
Ms Sin?ad Harris:
It is important that we hone in on the issue of 18- to 24-year-olds. Just because someone turns 18 years of age does not mean that he or she suddenly has life skills and is able to take on the big bad world. Two Garda youth diversion projects are based in Ronanstown. When young people turn 18, they come off the books, but we still try to engage them through youth services so that they can still get the supports they need, be it in terms of employment, training or just getting out of the bed in the morning. There is this idea that someone becomes an adult when turning 18, but we still need to fund services for people aged 18 to 24.
A good cohort of people in that age group engage in the upper end of youth supports. They came up through youth projects and have reached a stage where they are able to take on other projects and start making a difference in their communities for other young people. They join committees or local clubs, return to youth services and get other young people involved. It becomes cyclical when they turn that age.
An open-door policy is necessary. Even if people leave a group or youth service, the door should always remain open to them so that they know they can return and access the service whenever they need it. We have a 23-year-old who is in addiction. He came in seeking help from us. It had probably been three or four years since we had last seen him, but he knew the door was open. The relationship we had built up over previous years meant that, having found himself in that situation again, he felt comfortable enough to come through our door and get the same service he got when he was 16. That is important.
Ms Amy Carey:
It is through our justice work that we work with many young people in the 18-to-24 age group. A large part of the mental health challenge is the lack of dual diagnoses. No one wants to touch them and they do not fit into any service. There is a significant gap.
Another issue is that of young people experiencing suicidal thoughts or who are at risk of suicide. Recently, one of our youth workers went with a young person who had been referred by a GP to an accident and emergency department. Within two hours, that young person was sent home despite being actively at risk of suicide. We were left with the responsibility for this very vulnerable person. That he was over 18 years of age was another issue. An accident and emergency department is not a suitable response for someone who is at risk of suicide. We have been trying to get therapeutic support for this young person for years but have not been able to do so for many reasons. If we had someone in-house who could do that, he would engage, but he will not engage with anyone. He has been let down by every other service his entire life and will not go to other spaces. If there was an in-house space, it would be helpful.
Regarding minorities, it relates to what we said about schools. Does Ms Lowry wish to comment?
Ms Leanne Lowry:
Yes. I will speak on behalf of the south inner city project leaders forum, or the UBU forum. We have petitioned for 10% of our working hours to be spent in schools, where necessary, to meet the needs of young Muslim women who cannot come to our youth projects because their families see what happens in Solas projects and do not believe it is okay for those young women to attend. If we had access to them in their schools, though, we could run programmes and try to build trust and relationships with the families.
The situation as regards young people from gated communities and homeless hubs is the same. We cannot get to them in the evening. We cannot reach their parents to get their consent or to explain to people from a different culture what youth work is and what we are trying to achieve. We are advocating and fighting to be allowed, where necessary, to reach young people in schools and provide them with those three and a half hours.
Mr. Brendan Cummins:
The issue of over-18s is a funny one and similar to the issue of young people aged between six and ten. Where do they fit into youth work? Generally, 18-year-olds are not going to come in to do the squashy couch programme. Well, they should have done it beforehand or they are coming in as teen parents because we did not do our job. They do not naturally fit into-----
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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We did not get that programme. That is why.
Mr. Brendan Cummins:
Did the Senator not? Anyway, they generally do not fit into the traditional group work methodology and they require a different response. We have been hearing about this constantly because it is recurring. Youth work has changed, as have the needs of young people, regardless of their age. If an 18-year-old is coming to a youth worker, that youth worker has done a great job of working with him or her and building that relationship. The worker is the one person in that young individual's life who he or she trusts. There might not be someone else.
When we have a little crisis, we might ring our mammies. These people might not have that luxury. A youth worker may wake up on a Monday morning to 12 text messages from a young person and may be the only one in their life that they see as responsible. There is a huge weight on a youth worker to be that person. It is not just one; 200 such kids might be relying on that youth worker. When they reach the age of 18, if they are still engaging with a youth worker, that worker should be privileged and humbled that they still want to talk to them. Their needs will be completely different from those of ordinary 18-year-old civilians, if we can call them that. They will need the flexibility the worker has shown them throughout their lives at different times. The worker cannot respond as part of a group-work response. The people in question require youth workers to be flexible and available when they need them. An 18-year-old does not always have a crisis at 3 p.m. when the arts programme is happening and the youth worker can respond. It happens at all sorts of hours, including out of hours and at weekends. We need this flexible case-management approach to address those needs and to hold on to those young people.
We need to look at the complex needs of 18- to 24-year-olds. When they reach the age of 25, we are still not finished with them. We end up with the UBU scheme again that we are not supposed to be engaging with when they are 25, 26 or 27. We do not just abandon people. Youth workers are the tool. We cannot just go into B&Q and pick up another one. We cannot just go and get another Sinéad Harris and sit her there. The youth worker is the only support that young person has for much of their life.
Regarding 18- to 25-year-olds, they are probably coming in because they want to get off the weed. They are probably coming in because they have taken 12 trays of zimmos and they cannot function. In many cases their mothers may have kicked them out and they are experiencing homelessness. They might have forgotten to sign on for the fourth time and have smashed the window in the post office because the woman behind the counter would not give them the money. These are the types of things that are happening in the lives of 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds.
We will get in the car and go to the social welfare office straight away within the hour. That is what they need. For that to happen youth workers need to be available and not tied to the indicative timetables the UBU scheme asks for. Where are our youth workers at 3 p.m. or 6 p.m.? We need to be able to have one or two youth workers just as case managers who do not deal with groups so that they can be responsive all the time. A young person will understand if they cannot be because the youth worker is with Johnny instead of Paddy. They can be told that Brendan will be back in a while and he will sort them out then.
These are the difficulties that youth work has fallen into. All agencies and State agencies have let young people down time and time again. Young people end up with compound complex issues. They have been consistently let down by the system. Youth workers that are the ones who picked her up again and again. It has nearly just naturally fallen into the youth workers lap to be that one-size-fits-all - every State agency in one person. I have been on a ramble there.
Ms Susan Menton:
I want to talk about integration. Before I do so, I refer to the Youth Work Act. The latter covers people up to 25 years of age. We should be allowed to work on that. That has been in place since the early 1990s or whenever. Perhaps we should even go beyond 25. That case management should be allowed to happen without having to have loads of contact hours recorded for the UBU scheme and all the other complex funding.
Senator Ruane spoke about neurodiversity, neuro interventions and stuff like that for young people. St. Ultan's is an integrated project, and we do not say that lightly. We have different professionals working with young people. One of the things we do is to bring services into St. Ultan's. As we mentioned here a few times, young people right down to very young children are frightened of going into formal settings such as medical centres, etc. Their parents have their own life experiences and many of them are still young people themselves.
Youth work, community work and integrated services like St. Ultan's are trying to respond to generational disadvantage. That will not happen by boxing everything off into little boxes. It must be interdepartmental. The latter is extremely important for all of us in this room. We work in an integrated way on the ground but the Departments do not. A lot of negotiation needs to happen. We need to fit into one Department for this and another Department for that. It is really frustrating and time consuming for those of us who are trying to work on the ground.
Mr. Cummins mentioned case management. Ideally, that is what many of us need. We need family case managers who are able to manage entire families. None of the funding streams allows us to do that. From an integration point of view, as organisational services we have always done it really well on the ground and then Tusla or someone comes up with the idea of meitheal, which is absolutely brilliant, but sure we were doing it for years. I suppose it formalised the service and allowed us to do it in a more formalised way.
The earlier intervention with young people is obviously the best way to go. While we are doing it with young people, we need to be doing it with the parents and families as well. I am not sure how that can happen. There needs to be some sort of family case management system there. In our model, we can show that young people benefit more from having that earlier intervention. We work with the integrated youth services of Cherry Orchard and the equine centre family base is very involved. We do a huge amount of interagency work together. Different services have different expertise. We cannot do everything and so we need to rely on interagency work.
Cherry Orchard has been in the news a lot recently for all the wrong reasons. Considerable investment is needed. Interagency work is needed. Agencies and organisations on the ground need to be able to do multiple things and not just to be boxed off for youth work or whatever. We need to be able to do stuff across sectors in an integrated way. Families, parents and young people will gravitate towards certain services and it comes back to the relationships that they have with organisations. We bring to St. Ultan's services such as speech and language services and therapeutic services. Ideally CAMHS, GP services and all the other services that we need would be linked directly into the service.
Earlier intervention is crucial for anything to work for us. If there was one thing this committee could do it would be to ensure proper funding for case management. Ms Kearney and I were talking earlier and we were saying that we know what we are doing but just need the funding. We do not need to be boxed. We do not need the outcome of a policy to be prescribed. We just need to be given the money and let us do the job that we know we can do really well. We are all qualified and trained. Many of us have gone back to Maynooth, Dundalk and other colleges to train. Just let us do it.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I have really enjoyed this meeting. It has been very informative. It was mentioned that a report would come out from this. This place just publishes reports and nothing happens to them. It is incumbent on the witnesses and us to make sure that there is action on that report and that we follow up. If the committee runs into barriers in getting actions on the recommendations of that report, it is up to us as legislators and public representatives to ensure we get over these barriers and be that voice because otherwise it will just be left on the shelf. We see reports all the time and they are just left there. We might follow up a year later to find out where that report is and nobody knows where it is. It is a regular thing.
Ms Kearney and other people mentioned early intervention for mental health. I am my party's spokesperson on mental health and I know that early intervention piece is just not there. Primary care psychology was mentioned with 11,000 children on a waiting list, with 4,000 children waiting for more than a year. Somebody mentioned there is a three-and-a-half year waiting list in Ballyfermot alone That is the primary care. If a young person or a child does not get primary care at that stage, they are likely to need more acute care which CAMHS is meant to give. The multidisciplinary approach by CAMHS is not there at the moment. We have seen two recent reports, the Maskey report and the Mental Health Commission report, which stand as a damning indictment on how CAMHS is not working, not how it is working. People cannot access the care they need when they need it and where they need it.
Young people's and children's access to community disability networks teams has not been mentioned today. As Ms Harris will know, that has a big impact on my community. When young people are not getting that therapeutic intervention at an early stage, they are more likely to need more mental health support and the supports provided by the organisations represented here today. They have to do that because nobody else is doing so.
That piece - the interaction between child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, primary care and the community disability network teams - has to be there, and the youth services. There was mention of 2025. I will put my hands up to something that I have omitted to do. I refer to this conversation around extending services out to 2025. If you look at Sharing the Vision, it states the timeline for CAMHS should be extended to 2025 as well. Instead of a CAMHS model, it is a school inclusion model, SIM. My party has been working on our own policy document on that. I have reached out to all sectors and I have not reached out to the youth. That is an omission on my part. When I am reaching out, I am thinking of the statutory mental health services that are out there already providing the services instead of the groups that are holding our young people in that space. That is an omission of mine. That is something that we need to learn as legislators, not only to think outside the box but also to go to the people who are delivering it on the ground.
I will ask my two questions because I do not want to use too much of my time. The first is around that community mental health model that Ms Kearney was talking about. Where is that and what conversations has she had on that?
My second question is about that street work. It is vitally important, as Mr. Perth said, to meet young people where they are at. It is not where you think they should be; it is where they are at. As Mr. Perth will be aware, I worked as an outreach worker. I worked with young people under the age of 18 who were using substances as a coping mechanism or a way of dealing with internal trauma. The work was funded, it was doing well, and then we had a new manager come into the service that I was working in who decided that we were not funded for that. After him having the conversation with the young people, they said that I never talked about drugs. When he came back to me and said that I was not even talking about their drug use, I said that the drug use was only a symptom. That was not the problem. It is a symptom of whatever else is going on with these young people. I believe in street work. It has a vital place in youth work and in substance use, etc. On the pilot project, I was wondering where it is at present. Will it be rolled out further? Are there any plans to expand that into other parts of Tallaght or other areas as well?
Ms Fiona Kearney:
There are two pieces for me in terms of the community mental health. The first is in response to both Deputy Ward and Senator Ruane. When you think about the lack of access to the community disability networks, when you think about primary care psychology, when you think about CAMHS, and Senator Ruane's piece around the over-representation of neurodivergent people in prison, as we know, they are all linked. Because we do not get access, it manifests in behaviour, it manifests in criminal behaviour then and we lock people up. I am not interested in moaning about what is not working. I am interested in solutions. I have offered two already today in terms of a case management approach with youth work services and the community mental health model.
There is something else that responds to this piece here and I have spoken to St. Ultan's about this. It is about multidisciplinary teams wrapped around the primary schools and the early years services. If you wanted to pilot one, St. Ultan's would be the place to do it. We are talking about speech and language therapists, occupational therapists and psychologists in and wrapped around the schools. When they get their two-year-olds in to the early years services and they are starting to screen for those needs, we are in there early and we have a team of specialists. We are piloting this in the Department of Education with OT and speech and language therapists. We do not have psychologists there. We need to add them to the package. We need to pilot it in St. Ultan's with all of the issues for Cherry Orchard. That would solve a lot of the issues around disability network access, etc. That is one piece of the puzzle for me.
The second piece is dealing with trauma and inter-generational trauma. A community model of that is what we are operating. We only can operate this one day a week working with six families at a time. It is basically trauma therapy; it is not trauma-informed therapy, it is recovery from trauma. If people need to shake in the room with a skilled therapist to release trauma, a mixed modality offers ways of doing it. We are working with a skilled family therapist, Ms Joy Winterbotham, who is delivering this for us. We would like to develop that to having a family therapist, an adult psychotherapist and children's play therapists to work with the whole family because the family has sub-systems. All communities need this. There is focus on the parent-child relationship, direct work with children and direct work with couples. If you think about domestic violence, we are working with the mammy and her children all the time. We need to work with the daddy. We need to work with dad because he will always have contact with his children and children will want that relationship with their dad, and then they will go on to have other partners as well. We need to resolve trauma. We need to ensure that those relationships can be functioning relationships. For us, it is about a trauma therapy centre in a community so that we do not need to get to CAMHS level. They can be prescribed by CAMHS if they need something but they need to do their recovery work somewhere.
This is really important for us and is two-fold. It is about early intervention multidisciplinary teams wrapped around schools and early years services and it is about a trauma therapy centre to deal with inter-generational trauma.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Kearney.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Does Mr. Perth want to respond?
Ms Grace Hill:
When we knew street work was a missing piece in Tallaght, we looked at how would fund this. As Deputy Ward can imagine, there was not a lot forthcoming. We initially got funding through the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, and through the local community development committee, LCDC, in south Dublin. We are on a shoestring now for two years trying to evaluate it and make sure that we can clearly show the impacts and the positive outcomes, of which, not even a year into it, there are so many so far. We are starting the evaluation soon and then we will be looking at other funders. We have an advisory committee. There is already some thinking around SICAP.
We also have applied for the prevention fund under the Department with responsibility for the drug strategy as well. For me, that really plays a part. It is €100,000 over three years. It is a cross-party piece. It is about prevention. It is about supporting young people, many of whom are engaged in drug-related crime and drug use as well. I am waiting to hear from that, having applied last November.
Through the SICAP, it was great to have a partnership that strategically viewed young people are part of its target group. They are providing safe passes and the education piece.
I want to highlight the benefit of the street work piece. A number of groups, including the joint policing committee in south Dublin, have come out and said that this is amazing and that these are the young people they could never have approached or reached. There is huge support for this work, we just need the money. Hopefully, the evaluation will show the huge impact that we are having, not only with the young people Mr. Perth and the team are working with but also through the other organisations. We have other youth organisations now saying, for example, "There's Jimmy, I have not seen him in a while.", because there is another piece of work being done with him through the street work and maybe he has the confidence to approach a youth service which he would not have had in the past.
Hopefully, the evaluation will show these amazing outcomes and the value of them in Tallaght and beyond. As many alluded to, there has been much in the media about similar disadvantaged communities that could benefit from this. It has been proven in Ballymun, through the Ballymun Youth Action Project, BYAP. It has been proven in the Targeted Response with Youth, TRY, project in Dublin 8 as well. We find it is working for us and is complementing the other services.
Mr. Paul Perth:
Street work is different, as Deputy Ward knows. It is unique and humbling. It is about humility. When somebody enters this room, they have to speak a certain way. There is an ethos to this room, to this building. As a street worker, when we enter a young person's space, the first thing we do is ask the young person if it is okay if we come over and talk. With humility, the power balance completely changes. The young person is in control. All we can do is what they do when they come into our building. We can either walk away or use all these ways we have of putting up boundaries. We learn their different codes of the street. There are all these different codes out there. We learn how to interact. We just have fun with them and treat them like humans.
I am losing my train of thought.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Perth is grand.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Senator Ruane will respond and then Ms Carey and Mr. Scanlon may contribute.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I speak not as a politician but as a resident of Tallaght west because I was a young person who needed services. The standard to which I hold services is fairly high and I am fairly intolerant of services that do not go above and beyond for young people.
I have to say what I have noticed in the 11 months that Connect 4 has been in Tallaght west. I am still very involved with my community. My friends' kids are the kids who need the service now, it is not us any more. The amount of messages that I receive saying "I just seen Paul Perth jog around with so-and-so and so-and-so, he is up there jogging around Kiltipper Hill, what is he doing?" I have never experienced that. Everyone is commenting on the presence of him and the team in Tallaght west in such a positive manner. Men who would have been engaged in all sorts of things with me are ringing saying it is absolutely great to see Paul Perth and his team out working with the young fellas. I have not experienced that probably since way back when the likes of the community addiction response programme, CARP, was originally set up. I have not seen that type of response from a community to a service. It shows the need but it also shows the personality of the person involved. We can have a service and an intervention but there has to be the right people providing those interventions. I think that is a testament to Paul and how he engages with young people on the streets of Tallaght west. I want to thank him for that as a resident of Tallaght west rather than a politician.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I want to make a few comments myself and am conscious of time ticking on. Does Ms Boyne want to come in herself and say a few words at some point? I will give her a few minutes and will take Ms Carey and Mr. Scanlon first.
Ms Amy Carey:
To follow up on street work, the TRY project in Dublin 8 was mentioned. It has been in existence for about five years as a street work model and for the last year has moved in to Solas Project so it is part of our organisation now. The journey of TRY, similar probably to Connect 4, has been one of scrambling for funding. It has not necessarily fit anywhere. If this is a model that we are seeing the value of in different communities, we should look at how we streamline and mainstream that so it is not cobbling together bits and pieces of money. It was initially funded through a regeneration project in St. Theresa's Gardens and then it was under HSE drugs funding. Now it has moved into the Department of Justice in terms of funding. It is kind of just being thrown around the place. It is probably something that needs to be looked at in the context of youth work generally and not just as a justice response, which is where it is now. It is that piece of bridging and reaching the young people who are not connecting with services.
Mr. John Scanlon:
On the area of early intervention and trying to address cause where possible, we have a programme in St. Ultan's called integrated care and education, ICE. It is a specific programme that provides supports and wraps around the child. Going through the list of 70 or 80 kids in the past 12 months, they have needed emotional support due to bereavement, separation, violence in the home or whatever. They are aged three, four, five and six. We can actually support them if we are given the resources to do so. They already trust us, they are in and out of the building. It is a model that can be replicated. It is important for people to take note of that. It could do with additional resources. We provide play therapy and a lot of other resources but we have to fund those ourselves through philanthropic and various other ways. We put the child at the centre of everything we do and we really do believe in early intervention. Schools can be the source and the place for that because the child is going to school anyway. They know the child best and are seeing the child every day. It is a perfect place for this to happen, once the relationship exists between the school and the support services that go with it. We have had 14 or 16 years of it in St. Ultan's so we have had time to build it. It takes time.
Dealing with the other side of it, how to address a lot of these issues on a bigger scale, it may even seem too big. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has been really good to St. Ultan's. We have a really good working relationship with them. The Department of Education does not really engage with the campus as a whole, it just specifically deals with the school. We are all working for the children. We had an assessment a couple of weeks ago where the Department of Education early years team came out to see the early years section. They are seeing that smooth transition, the care for the kids and so on and they are asking why this cannot exist in other schools. We know ourselves from past whole-school evaluations that there is no box for that in the Department of Education report so it will probably never appear anywhere in there. It is about Government working together. We are working together.
As a very specific example, Cherry Orchard is getting all of the wrong publicity but Deputy Costello has been through it and he knows that there are 7,000 people living with one corner shop. That is what it is. It is an example of really bad planning, no support services and those that are there are just not enough. Now we are putting more housing in on top and no additional services. What is going to happen in five or ten years time? The majority of these will be social housing. It is about having a whole-of-government approach. I know it is meant to come through the implementation board. Hopefully it does. It may seem too big an issue for this meeting because it is just about children but it is about every Department working together.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I do not know if Ms Boyne wants to come in. I figured if we are talking about youth work, we should hear from a young person herself.
Ms Emily Boyne:
I am sitting here as a product of youth work today. As Stephen did mention, I have been attending the Bosco since I was seven years of age but now I am lucky enough to say I am a part-time youth worker there. I am 24 now so technically I am still in the age bracket to be a young person. Somebody mentioned the open door policy earlier. When I was 21 I was in limbo. I did not know what to do. I was only 16 doing my leaving certificate which is very young. I went off and had a bit of fun and studied drama for a couple of years but then that got me to a stage where I was asking what am I supposed to do with my life now. I went in to Stephen at 21 years of age, I did not know where else to go. The first place I went to was walking through that door of the Bosco and I said to him, "I want to study youth work.". I even said it to Stephen on the way in that ten years ago nothing like this was on my agenda. Walking in here today, I never thought ten years ago I would be sitting here, even just listening to amazing workers talk about what they do.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Thank you. I was going to make some points myself but I think it might be better to leave it there. As Mr. Cummins says about the privilege and that, if people are coming back years later that is a fitting testament to the quality of decent youth work. I will annoy the secretariat with my points later instead of making them here. Does anyone want to make a last contribution before we close it off?
Mr. Gerard Roe:
One thing is sticking with me. It is something Senator Ruane said about mental health and the whole area of neurodivergence, which is quite a new concept and not many people will be familiar with it. Most of us can testify and know when we are working with young people from age ten, that large swathes of them can engage meaningfully but there are just some young people who just cannot co-operate and they are labelled the bad child. They are not. They need an assessment. They become that 18 year-old and the ones in the gap between 18 and 24 who go to prison. They are going to Oberstown or Mountjoy when they should be going to see a psychiatrist to be put on the medication they should be on. Then they would not be self-medicating with weed. I am not the expert there but I have the trained eye and I happen to be ADHD myself. I know what I am dealing with or when I see it in other young people. This is the worst country in the world, next to south New Zealand where the Maori live, for people walking around undiagnosed with ADHD. The intervention they actually need is to be seeing a psychiatrist to get the proper help. We know the child and adolescent mental health service, CAMHS is difficult and stuff like that but a lot of these young men and women are going into Oberstown and places they should not be in the first place. So many people are in prison who ended up there over things they did out of impulsivity because they cannot control it. They have been misunderstood. I know that opens up something and I do not have all the answers but I am very interested in it. It is something that has to be looked at. I believe youth work plays a very important role in that context.
Mr. Brendan Cummins:
This just came to me halfway through and I was hemming and hawing about saying it. With youth work changing so much and being so many things to so many different young people, we really need to go back and look at the Youth Work Act and the definition of youth work. This is where the disjoint between the top and bottom comes from.
When new people come in as civil servants, that is what they read and that is what they think it is and that is not what it is anymore. It is no longer just a planned programme of activities. It is life-saving shit that is happening on the ground. It is not just complementing the formal education system. For some people, this is their education. I will keep going if I do not stop there. Colourful language is about to emerge about bureaucrats. If we are going to be ballsy about making change in young people's lives, which is really important because we are talking about people's lives, it is not arts and crafts or bingo on a Friday afternoon with ten-year-olds. We are talking about people's lives and it is life-changing and transformative. Sometimes it is the only cup of tea someone will get. You are not supposed to hug anymore but sometimes it is the only hug a young fellow will get all week. We really need to scale back, pull it apart and ask "Is this what we are offering? Is this what we are funding?" If it is, fair enough. Some of us will probably just say we do not do youth work anymore. I suppose we do life-saving stuff. We are doctors on the ground. The definition of youth work is constraining and is choking what youth work is on the ground so that is the piece that needs to change. It will allow us to do that case management piece that allows us to work with the young person and the mammy. We cannot work with young people on our own because they go back to the mammy and live like that for the rest of the week. Sorry, I am on my soapbox now - game over. The clock has gone red. I thank the committee for listening and for inviting me.
Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us. It is really good to have had this discussion and lively debate. As Senator Ruane said, it will go into a report and as Deputy Ward said, we have a responsibility to make sure things happen, which is a separate conversation. Before we conclude, I propose to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.