Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from the Chairman, Deputy McGuinness, and Deputy Doherty. We welcome a new member to the committee, Deputy English. He is very welcome.

We now proceed with the usual notice in respect of mobile phones. I ask all those present to decommission them or do whatever it is that is required. I welcome members and viewers who may be watching the proceedings of the public session of the Oireachtas Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach on Oireachtas TV.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. It is not that I will not but that I cannot do so.

The Dáil has ordered that the Revised Estimates for the Public Services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this select committee for consideration: Vote 1 - President's Establishment; Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach; Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General; Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office; Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions; and Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Taoiseach. I presume all members have received briefing documents. The programme-based structure for Estimates should allow the committee to focus on what the Department has committed to achieving in terms of outputs, namely, to consider whether the performance targets included in the Estimates are a sufficiently complete description of the services provided by the Department and whether these targets strike the right balance in terms of the needs of society, and to consider whether the information provided by the Department makes clear how the moneys available are allocated between services and whether these allocations are the most appropriate in the circumstances.

I remind members that we have to vacate the room by 12 noon. I welcome the Taoiseach and call on him to make his opening address.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank members for this opportunity to appear before the select committee as they consider the 2023 Estimates for Votes 1 to 6, inclusive. A detailed briefing document for each of these Votes has been supplied to the committee in advance of the meeting.

While I have certain responsibilities to the Oireachtas for administrative matters in some of these offices, they operate independently of my Department. I will, therefore, mainly focus on the work of my Department in light of the proposed 2023 Estimate.

On Vote 1, the Estimate for the President's Establishment is just over €5 million. This includes €3.4 million for pay and administration, with the balance used to fund the centenarians' bounty.

On Vote 3, the Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General is €26.8 million. Some €15.8 million of this relates to staff costs and €2.9 million is allocated to the Law Reform Commission. The consolidation and revision of planning legislation subhead has been allocated €4 million, down from €12 million in the Estimate for 2022, as the planning and development Bill has now been published.

The Central Statistics Office Estimate is €72.4 million, down from a budget of €103 million last year because 2022 was a census. The figure includes €3.9 million for the ongoing 2022 census costs and €1 million for plans for the 2027 census project. Other areas funded are the household budget survey, the integrated farm statistics project, improving data security, accessibility and protection and the development of an online platform for the 2027 census so it can be done online.

The Estimate for Vote 5, which is for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, is €56.1 million. This provides €23.7 million in administration and pay, which is an increase of €4.9 million on 2022. Some €19 million has been allocated for fees to counsel and €8.4 million to fund the local State solicitor service.

Vote 6 is the Chief State Solicitor’s Office. The Estimate is €49.5 million, the bulk of which relates to salaries and administration. A provision of just over €20.9 million is allocated for the payment of legal fees incurred.

The 2023 Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach’s Vote is €38.7 million. Two thirds of the Estimate, €25.5 million, relates to staff and administration. The remaining €13.2 million provides funding for the citizens’ assemblies, the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, Covid-19 public communications and also several independent inquiries. The Department is currently developing its new statement of strategy for 2023 to 2025. This will reflect the central role of the Department in advancing a number of whole-of-government priorities over the coming period. One of these is helping families and businesses with the high cost of living. We all know that the past 12 months have been difficult for many people, with significant cost-of-living increases, particularly related to energy, and that is now feeding through to groceries. However, we face these challenges from a position of strength, thanks to the strong economy and the prudent management of the public finances in recent years. Despite an uncertain international environment, our economy continues to grow. We have record numbers of people in employment and we are seeing the highest levels of labour market participation in more than a decade.

Many of the measures announced as part of the budget in 2023 are only now coming into effect or they will come into effect shortly. This includes the payment of a further energy credit of €200 for every household this month, the abolition of inpatient hospital charges for adults in April, and the introduction of free schoolbooks and reduced costs for further and higher education - these relate to the student registration fee and improvements in the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grant - come into effect in September.

Two weeks ago, we announced some additional steps to help families and businesses, including a lump sum child benefit payment of €100 per child to be paid in June and a €200 lump sum to be paid in April to all long-term social welfare recipients, including pensioners.

The Government will continue to ensure businesses and families are assisted to manage rising energy costs. Alongside these short-term responses, we are encouraging continued investment in sustainable energy and the national grid to ensure that we rapidly decarbonise our energy and reduce our dependence on imported fossil fuels. We are also investing heavily in economic and social infrastructure to secure our future competitiveness, as well as ensuring balanced regional development, through the national broadband plan, the regeneration of our rural communities and job creation outside of Dublin. We are also promoting the digital transition across our economy and society, to the benefit of all.

On housing, we will do whatever it takes to solve this profound social crisis and reverse the trend of rising homelessness and falling home ownership. Housing for All is a comprehensive plan that will increase the supply of homes for our citizens and bring a fundamental reform of our housing system. Working with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, we are driving its implementation with quarterly progress reports. Last year, 2022, saw the largest annual completion of new homes in more than a decade, with roughly 30,000 new homes built. That does not include student accommodation and derelict homes being brought back into use. Some 8,000 new social housing units were built, which is the highest number since 1975. Commencement notices and planning permission approvals also increased in 2022. There are now clear indications that Housing for All is starting to work. However, the results will take time, given the scale of the challenge and the need for fundamental reform.

In the year since Russia’s brutal invasion, Ukraine has seen immense suffering and destruction and a wide-scale displacement of its people. To date, Ireland is accommodating almost 80,000 people who have fled here from Ukraine and also people applying for international protection who have come from outside of Europe. We have also enrolled almost 15,000 Ukrainian students in our schools.

This response is unprecedented in the history of our State.

The recently established Cabinet committee on the humanitarian response to Ukraine, which I chair, oversees the whole-of-government humanitarian response for people from Ukraine who have sought temporary protection here. Given the continuing volume of people arriving, sourcing suitable accommodation at scale and at speed is extremely challenging. The State has a moral and legal obligation to provide accommodation for people seeking international protection here and for people from Ukraine seeking temporary protection. The crisis began as an emergency, but we are now developing a more long-term sustainable response. We want services and assistance to be adequate, consistent and equitable. We are developing a more agile response to providing accommodation beyond the use of hotels and tourist accommodation. We are accelerating the refurbished buildings programme, continuing the unoccupied homes campaign, and providing pledged accommodation and rapid-build homes on suitable sites. The €50 million community recognition fund is being provided to ensure that access to public services and community centre facilities is maintained and expanded, and there is at least some reward for communities that are welcoming so many people from abroad.

The Government recently approved the participation of 30 Defence Forces’ personnel in the newly established European Union military assistance mission, EUMAM, for Ukraine. All of Ireland’s assistance to Ukraine, whether through the European peace facility in the form of bilateral aid or through Ireland’s participation in EUMAM, is done consistent with the principle of military neutrality and in full recognition that after a year of war Ireland has not, at any stage, been politically neutral in this conflict. We are on the side of Ukraine.

Climate change is the most pressing long-term global challenge of our time and Ireland is facing up to that challenge. The Cabinet committee on environment and climate change oversees the ambitious programme for Government commitments in this area. The updated climate action plan, published last December, sets out the actions required to respond to the climate crisis and meet our EU and national commitments to significantly reduce emissions. It puts climate solutions at the centre of Ireland’s social and economic development. The climate action unit in the Department of the Taoiseach drives implementation of our ambitious climate agenda, including by co-chairing the climate action delivery board and reporting on the implementation of the climate action plan. We have set the ambition to halve our emissions by 2030 and become climate neutral by 2050. The changes required will be transformative and will require the involvement of all sectors of the economy and all parts of society. We will continue to provide leadership and pursue more effective environmental and climate protection across our policies and programmes.

We are continuing our shared island initiative, to benefit the whole island and work with all communities for a shared future, underpinned by the Good Friday Agreement. The initiative is driven and co-ordinated through the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach. Over the past two years, the Government has allocated €191 million from the shared island fund to move ahead with long-standing cross-Border commitments, such as the Ulster Canal and the Narrow Water Bridge. New initiatives this year include the €3 million shared island civic society funding scheme and a €15 million electric vehicle, EV, charging scheme network of publicly accessible, community-focused, EV charging points at sports clubs across the island of Ireland.

Over the past 24 months, more than 2,500 citizens and civic representatives from all regions, sectors and communities on the island of Ireland have participated in the shared island dialogue series. A comprehensive research programme is also under way, working with the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, the Irish Research Council and other partners. A stream of high-quality work has been published to inform discussions and engagement by all communities and traditions on the island on the opportunities for our shared future. The continuing absence of the executive and inability of the North-South Ministerial Council to meet impacts on what is possible and there is an urgent need to get all of the political institutions of the agreement operating again. The breakthrough deal achieved between the EU and the UK provides the necessary certainty for trade in Northern Ireland. It also provides a firm platform for the future of relations between the EU and the UK to move onto a more positive and productive footing and paves the way for restoration of the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement.

Through the work of the Cabinet committee on health we will continue to invest in our health services to improve outcomes for all. Our health service has major challenges, which was evident during the difficult winter period. However, our health system has responded and expanded dramatically in recent years. We are treating more people with better outcomes than ever before. Life expectancy in Ireland is now one of the best in the EU. Waiting lists, using the Sláintecare targets, that is, nobody should wait more than ten to 12 weeks to see a consultant or have a procedure they need, fell by 11% in 2022 and are down almost 25% from their peak. We are targeting a further 10% reduction in waiting lists this year.

We are committed to expanding the core capacity of our acute hospitals, with more health professionals and more acute hospital beds. Over the past three years, we have added nearly 1,000 hospital beds to the system, with further additional beds planned for 2023. This does not include community beds, which are also being increased. We also aim to increase our public health and social care workforce by another 6,000 this year.

On access, under Sláintecare, last year we removed inpatient charges for all under-16s and this year we will remove them for patients over-16. We are expanding free contraception and GP care and introducing State-funded IVF. Regional health areas are being developed to drive integration between community and hospital medicine and the new public-only consultant contract is now a reality. This the beginning of the end of private practice in our public hospitals. Sláintecare is happening.

On child poverty, our vision is to make Ireland the best country in Europe to be a child. Poverty restricts a child’s opportunity. The first few years of life are so important. The child poverty and wellbeing unit will build on what has been achieved by the Government and give a greater focus to improving the lives of all children in Ireland. We want to ensure that unit brings added value, as well as strategic leadership and enhanced accountability, to the child poverty reduction agenda and makes a tangible difference in the lives of children and families. We aim to have this unit up and running by the end of this month.

The Cabinet committee on children and education will oversee the programme for Government commitments, with a specific focus on child poverty and wellbeing. This year we will reduce childcare costs, increase the child dependant allowance and the back to school clothing and footwear allowance, waive State exam fees, reduce the cost of school transport, introduce free school books in all primary schools in September, and hot school meals in all DEIS primary schools and all special schools. Members will see we are taking action on this agenda already.

We will build stronger and safer communities through reforms in policing and community safety, including oversight roles in the implementation of A Policing Service for our Future and the Dublin North East Inner City initiative. We will build on the work under way to reduce crime and antisocial behaviour. We will provide additional resources to An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, the Prison Service and the court system, as well as passing new laws to ensure we apprehend criminals and deal with them appropriately.

Last June, the Government launched a new strategy to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which is at epidemic proportions in Ireland. It is an ambitious five-year programme of reform aimed at achieving a society that does not accept domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, or the attitudes that underpin it. The Cabinet committee on social affairs and public services oversees implementation of the strategy.

I want Ireland to be a world leader when it comes to gender equality. We have new gender pay gap legislation, additional parental leave, and we are ensuring better gender balance on boards and increasing gender candidate quotas for Dáil elections. Last year saw many public and private organisations publish their first gender pay gap reports required under the new legislation. This is bringing much-needed visibility to the gap that still exists in pay levels between men and women. It will drive change and increase the promotion of women within organisations.

We have also agreed to introduce legislation to provide better gender balance on corporate boards; we have already done so on State boards. For too long, women and girls have carried a disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, been discriminated against at home and in the workplace, overlooked, objectified, and some have lived in fear of domestic or gender-based violence. We are committed to responding to the matters raised by the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality. As part of our response, earlier this week, the Government agreed that a referendum or referendums will be held in November 2023 to amend the Constitution as recommended by the citizens’ assembly and joint Oireachtas committee.

As a first step, we will convene an interdepartmental group to determine the policy scope of the referenda and to develop policy recommendations for consideration by the Government. The group will be convened by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and will include representatives from all Departments, the Office of the Attorney General and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the translators, and other agencies will be asked to contribute as the work progresses. While the detail will emerge from the interdepartmental process, at this point it is expected that two separate constitutional amendments will be proposed, one amendment to focus on equality in general, and the scope of the second amendment will be in relation to care.

Ireland is widely regarded as a world leader in deliberative democracy. Citizens' assemblies have become an important part of the Irish democratic process, and the recommendations of previous assemblies have influenced significant changes in how we live our lives, including through constitutional change, legislative change, and changes in the design and implementation of policy. Most recently, the Dublin Citizens' Assembly submitted its final report and recommendations to the Oireachtas in December. The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss held its final meeting in January, and its report and recommendations will be submitted to the Oireachtas in the coming weeks.

The Government has recently established a Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use. Selection of citizens is under way with the first meeting scheduled for April. The Department of the Taoiseach provides a secretariat for the assemblies. The assembly will consider and make recommendations in respect of the changes the State might make to reduce significantly the harmful impact of drugs on individuals, families, communities, and wider society. An important part of the assembly's work will be developing an understanding of the lived experience of individuals, families, and communities impacted by drugs use. The assembly is scheduled to conclude its work and submit its report by the end of this year.

Finally, provision is also being made in the Estimate for a number of independent inquiries, including the Moriarty tribunal, the Cregan commission, and the Cooke commission. The Estimate includes an allocation of €2.5 million for the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, for its work in providing forward-looking, strategic advice on economic, social, and sustainable issues. The current NESC work programme includes a programme of research on a wide range of important topics such as the private rented sector in Ireland, the nature of Ireland's economy, climate, biodiversity and transition in agriculture, and how Ireland’s new well-being framework can help identify inequalities. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and I look forward to discussing the Revised Estimates with Deputies.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach. It is now the turn of members who will have ten minutes each to start with. We will go through the Votes individually for approval as they must go before the House.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat a Leas-Chathaoirleach agus go raibh maith agat a Taoiseach as ucht teacht chun an Choiste seo. I welcome the Taoiseach to the committee. Given the time constraints outlined by the Leas-Chathaoirleach, I will start with housing. Obviously, a core activity of the Taoiseach's Department is the co-ordination role played in the delivery of housing policy. The Cabinet committee on housing is supported by his Department with the publication of quarterly progress reports on the Housing for All plan. Regarding this co-ordination role, I want to address something that was raised during the Taoiseach's parliamentary party meeting yesterday and was reported by media, which was that the Taoiseach said he estimated the current deficit in housing to be approximately 250,000 homes and that it would take a long time to close the gap. If that is the current deficit, it will take until 2029, under the Housing for All output targets, just to meet the existing shortfall which means the Taoiseach's current plan will not meet the additional housing needs that will inevitably arise in the coming decade. The Housing Commission has advised that we require between 42,000 and 62,000 homes to be built per year to close this shortfall, while the targets contained in the Taoiseach's plan are an average of 33,000 homes. Does the Taoiseach accept any responsibility as a member of Government for the last 12 years?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat a Theachta as do chuid ceisteanna. First, the Housing Commission has not yet reported or given us any advice on new targets. I think there may have been a leak from the commission, but we have yet to receive a report from it on new targets. I look forward to that report and I have met the commission so I have a rough idea of what it will propose but it has not done it yet. It is important to say that in the existing Housing for All plan, the plan is to scale up to 40,000 per year, so there is not a huge gap between what we have planned already and what we believe the Housing Commission will recommend. We need to scale up. I wish we could go from 30,000 last year to 60,000 this year but I think we all appreciate that is not possible. It has to be scaled up and we need to scale it up as fast as possible. Yes, as Taoiseach and as Head of Government, I accept absolute responsibility for dealing with the housing crisis.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat a Thaoiseach. I want to deal with the eviction ban. We see the number of people who are homeless at the moment and we see in particular people of my age group, people in their early 30s who work full-time and whose partner or husband might work full-time but who are living with their parents. I went to a number of weddings over the summer where people who had got married had to go home to their parents' house. They have not been able to move out because of this failure in housing.

I want to focus now on the eviction ban, which has no doubt been an issue under consideration at the Cabinet committee on housing, which is supported by the Taoiseach's Department. The emergency ban on evictions ends in a few weeks' time and a very large number of eviction notices will fall due in April and May. If the Government does not extend the emergency ban, which I genuinely believe it needs to do, we will see a significant increase in homelessness into the summer. I have been in the Dáil for the past three years but before that I was on the council for five years and I have to say that I have never seen homelessness or housing to be as bad as it is right now in Galway city. Without question, the number of rough sleepers and families with children being referred to Garda stations will increase as overnight emergency accommodation is completely at capacity in many areas.

Can the Taoiseach outline the number of available emergency accommodation units by local authority? I assume that when the Taoiseach made the decision to not extend the eviction ban, he did that because he had empirical evidence to suggest there was somewhere for those people who will become homeless as a result of the lifting of this eviction ban to go. I do not see that is my community. I know many Deputies across this State do not see that in their communities. I ask the Taoiseach to outline the number of available emergency units by local authority.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have had the same experience as Deputy Mairéad Farrell of going to weddings and meeting friends and colleagues who still live in the parental home. The average age for somebody leaving the parental home in Ireland is now 28 years of age. It used to be 23 or 24 years of age. I was 23 years of age when I left home and I want us to get back to the point where the average age for people leaving home in Ireland is 23 or 24 years of age. I appreciate that very few people are average and everyone's life story is different but it is the case that people now spend four or five years more at home than they would have done say 15 or 20 years ago and we have to turn that around.

We are making progress on home ownership. Some 25,000 first-time buyers got mortgage approval last year. Some 16,000 are real people and I meet them too. Thankfully, I know loads of people who have managed to buy their first home in the last year or so and 16,000 people, couples, have managed to buy their first home in the last year and that is the highest in 15 years. It needs to be way higher. It is happening, though, because of programmes like help-to-buy, and the first home shared equity scheme. I would really encourage opposition parties which do not support those programmes to reconsider that and change their minds on that. Many people have benefitted from those programmes already and a lot of those young people who have it in their mind to use help-to-buy or the first home shared equity scheme to buy their first home are really worried that it might be taken away from them if there is a change of Government. Any reassurance that opposition parties, which do not support those programmes, can give to people that they would not do that would be very welcome.

The Deputy is absolutely right about homelessness. I do think rough sleeping is a different phenomenon, and it is a complex social phenomenon. The number of people who are sleeping rough has fluctuated between 100 and 200 for a very long time now, for ten or 20 years. It is a particular and a very difficult phenomenon to deal with. In terms of wider homelessness, which is people in emergency accommodation provided by the State, there are roughly 11,000 people now in emergency accommodation provided by the State.

To answer the Deputy's question, I do not have the exact number of emergency accommodation units by local authority with me but I will provide them. I know that in the past three to six months, while the eviction ban was in place, we increased the provision of emergency accommodation by about 450 bed spaces.

I do not think emergency accommodation is the solution, nor does Deputy Farrell. The solution, to my mind, is preventing people becoming homeless in the first place. That is why we announced what we announced during the week, in particular the decision to authorise local authorities to buy 1,500 units where the landlord is selling up and there is a tenant in situ. When we think about it, there are 1,600 homeless families in Ireland at the moment, so authorising local authorities to buy 1,500 homes from landlords is not a small intervention. What we need to do now - the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O’Donnell, and I will do it - is to sit on the local authorities and make sure they and the AHBs as well. I know they will. I am disappointed with the extent to which this has been done until now. It needs to be accelerated.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are a few points to make in response. The first relates to home ownership and young people being able to afford a home and to leave their parents' home. A friend of mine, who is the exact same age, 33, was in touch with me this week. She got engaged at Christmas. Planning her wedding should be a lovely, exciting time for her but she says it is putting far too much stress and pressure on her at this time. She is in shared accommodation with her husband-to-be. They cannot plan a wedding because they will not be able to afford it with the amount of rent they pay. They have no chance of home ownership. They are very concerned that they cannot have children. They do not want to bring a baby into shared accommodation. They fear that by the time they can afford a home, she will not be able to have a child. That is a real-life impact that this is having. There are so many different stories about the different ways it is impacting, but that is one of them.

The Taoiseach referred to the likes of the help-to-buy scheme. He knows my party's position on that. The few friends who have had the opportunity to buy have all said the same thing. These are not people who are engaged in political activity on a daily basis or anything like that, but they all say the same thing, namely, that the scheme has increased the prices.

To go back to the eviction ban, I heard the housing Minister say on TV the other night that he knows it will increase homelessness. Given that we have record numbers of homelessness, I cannot understand how the Government would remove the eviction ban when it knows it will increase homelessness and knows the impact it will have on families. I understand the Taoiseach does not have the figures in front of him, but I assumed he would have a general understanding of how many free emergency accommodation units are available in each local authority. For the first time ever in Galway city, I have seen a waiting list for emergency accommodation. I have never seen that before. We have seen in Scotland that the decision has been made to extend the eviction ban until at least 30 September. I cannot understand how the Taoiseach can stand over this decision. Will he look back at it at all? Does he feel he can stand over it when he knows it will increase homelessness and the impact it will have on families and children?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The number of free emergency accommodation units varies from week to week. It is not a set figure. People come in and out of emergency accommodation.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach must have known what it was.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, obviously we are fully briefed on that by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, but there are different figures for the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, area and the various local authorities and the figure in Dublin varies a lot from the figures in other areas. We did take action during the period of the eviction ban. More than 5,000 new social homes were constructed. Some 450 emergency accommodation units were added. I can also give the Deputy the figures on leasing and voids.

What the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage acknowledged, which I also acknowledge, is that when the eviction ban ends, which it will at the end of this month, the number of homeless people in State-provided emergency accommodation, could continue to rise. Let us not forget that it rose every month that the eviction ban was in place. Unfortunately, the eviction ban did not reduce homelessness. We believe it is likely that the trend will continue. Some people say it will accelerate and increase at a faster rate. Some people say it will not. We do not know that for sure, but the main thing we want to do is do everything we can to avoid that happening. That means stepping up homeless prevention. Many of the NGOs do a lot of very good work in the area. We are keen to fund them to increase the amount of prevention work that is done. It often goes unseen, but it is the most cost-effective action we can take is to prevent homelessness in the first place, and also really stepping up the tenant in situpurchase by local authorities. I really want that to happen. I appeal to city and county managers to embrace this and use this mechanism to avoid people ending up in emergency accommodation in the first place.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make a couple of observations. First, regarding the previous discussion, it is important that we recognise that if we are to try to fix the housing market, in which the Taoiseach has taken a personal interest, along with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, to drive that through the Cabinet committee, we must have all stakeholders and parts of the housing market functioning. That includes the State playing its role and the private sector playing its role by people buying their own houses, but also a functioning rental market. The evidence clearly indicates that an eviction ban does not assist with that long-term goal. I find it strange that some people take a very different view of the evidence down here than those who are in charge in implementing policy in the North. It is very strange because the same evidence tells the same story but it is assessed very differently by people. To me, it is very clear. The Taoiseach has taken the right approach.

We must be committed to increasing the housing supply for many years ahead. That means activating all the levers in place today to achieve that goal. While an eviction ban might lead to some very short-term gains in some respects, the Government has put the resources in place to deal with the difficulties and prevent people becoming homeless and the Taoiseach has issued a very clear direction to local authorities to buy up homes. All Deputies have been asking for that for years. The option was always there but now there is a very clear direction, with money set aside to achieve that goal. That will prevent people being evicted from their homes and it will prevent homeless, which is very important.

When we assess the progress that has been made in recent years to try to deal with people who end up in emergency accommodation, thankfully that journey has been shortened for most people and their time spent in the emergency situation has been greatly reduced. All of us want to make sure that it never happens at all, which is key, but what is more important is that if it does happen, the State would immediately step in with all its resources to make sure it is for a very short duration. That is the progress we are making. The announcement this week will assist people to be able to stay in their home. I compliment the Taoiseach and all involved with that drive.

Second, I wish to comment on the scaling up of the housing delivery and the various targets we want to achieve. It is very important that this is done in a sustainable way so that when we scale up supply it is guaranteed to be there every year for the next ten, 15 or 20 years. If we do not do that and we decide to go to 70,000 one year and back down to 30,000 the next year, we are back to square one, which caused the problem in the first place.

The Revised Estimates are part of what the Taoiseach is trying to drive, namely, a sustainable increase in housing supply, so that we know when we get to 30,000 this year, the money will there again next year and the year after. That is what we need to do, or bring it up to 40,000, by guaranteeing those who choose to work in construction have a safe career path; and that those who choose to invest, be it a housing body, a local authority or the private sector, buy into a sustainable construction sector. That is how we fix housing, once and for all, permanently. That is what we are trying to do. As the Taoiseach said, we are providing for a long-term fix as well as dealing with today's issues. I compliment the work in that regard as well.

My final comment relates to the accommodation and solutions being provided for people coming here from abroad, mainly from Ukraine because of what is happening due to Russia. We must compliment all involved - the State, communities, local authorities and the various Departments. It has been an immense response from the country as a whole. The majority of people in this country have played their part in it. We now turn to a medium to long-term solution. The initial response was to an emergency. We had to find accommodation for up to 80,000 people. As well as the provision of housing accommodation, we had to find places right across the system in education, job creation, State supports and training and advice to people coming to live here. The response right across the system has been immense. We must compliment all involved in that, as well as the Irish people who played a role. The medium to long-term solutions and initiatives are happening as well. It is important that the Taoiseach is driving that through the various committees he chair as well. I compliment him on that. I will leave it at that for now.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I echo Deputy English's comments. I express my thanks, both personally and on behalf of the Government, to everyone who has helped to accommodate people coming from Ukraine. It is easy to forget, but we have never seen anything like this in Ireland before.

We were used to somewhere between 3,000 and 12,000 so 80,000 in one year is an extraordinarily big number. They are going to continue to come because unfortunately the war in Ukraine is far from over. I want to thank all of the accommodation providers, the communities that have welcomed Ukrainians and the people who have welcomed them into their homes. I also want to thank the staff in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That Department was set up to do different things. It was set up to bring forward the children's rights agenda, to reduce the cost of childcare, and to improve our disability services. It was not set up to deal with the biggest refugee crisis we have ever seen in the history of the State and the staff have really stepped up. I know they are under a lot of pressure and I want to record my thanks to them.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Tóibín is next.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Taoiseach agus lena fhoireann as teacht isteach agus as a chur i láthair.

I will focus on two different areas but I am not saying any of this in a combative fashion. I genuinely say it in an effort to tease out some of the problems that exist in government at the moment. If one looks at housing, healthcare, the cost-of-living crisis or the migration issue, there seems to be a big problem with competency at the heart of this Government. The Government is very able in many ways in trying to bat away allegations of bureaucratic inertia in housing and health and so forth but given all of the key performance indicators in all of these areas, a man of the Taoiseach's intelligence would have to admit, even secretly, that the level of progress is minimal. In fact, the Government is going backwards in many of these areas at the moment.

If we look at the healthcare system, we have record waiting lists for operations and record waiting times in accident and emergency departments. We had 120,000 people on trolleys last year, many of whom were old and infirm. Thousands of people waited for more than 24 hours on a trolley to get treatment. In 2021, we had 105,000 adverse incidents in the health service. In other words, the health service damaged 105,000 people through some manner of ill treatment, mistakes and so forth. The State paid €2 billion in negligence payments over a period of five years. Negligence payments are made because people physically suffered due to adverse incidents in the health service and that cost is being met by taxpayers. That is money that should have been invested in the health service.

Even today I am getting texts from the hospital in Navan to say that 39 patients were triaged last night but are still waiting to see a doctor. That is not even counting the people who are outside in the waiting room who have not yet been triaged. We have this incredible situation - I do not know if it is an intellectual fashion in the HSE - whereby even though we have a population that is increasing and getting older, the belief is that we should close more accident and emergency departments. On top of that we have an ambulance by-pass of Navan coming in, leading to Drogheda becoming a car park for ambulances. Ambulances are waiting for five hours to deposit their patients which means there are no ambulances available for Cavan, Monaghan, Louth and Meath. This is happening at a time when figures indicate that ambulances are less likely to meet their targets for getting to patients with serious illnesses within a specified time. It seems that decisions in the health service are eternally being made against the flow of evidence.

If all of this was happening during a funding crisis, at a time when there was a lack of money, people would be able to say there is very little we can do but we are spending more money on the health service than ever before. Ireland has the biggest proportion of its national budget being spent on the health service. Is there not an absolute crisis of competency at the heart of the running of the health service?

The Taoiseach:Míle buíochas, a Theachta. It will not surprise the Deputy when I say I do not agree with him but it is a reasonable question to ask. I remember President Biden once saying "Don't compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative". If the Deputy wants to see how we are performing as a country, he should not compare us to perfect but to other jurisdictions. He should look to other countries around the world and see how they are performing. There are nearly 200 countries in the world and they are all grappling with different problems and often those problems are very similar to ours.

To deal with health, which is what the Deputy focused on, we are seeing waiting times, that is, the length of time people have to wait to see a consultant or to get an operation, soaring around the world. North of the Border, in the NHS and all across Europe we are seeing the same problem, unfortunately, because of increased populations, ageing populations, new treatments and, of course, the disruption of the pandemic. In Ireland, we are seeing some improvements. As I mentioned in my initial statement, waiting lists as we measure them fell by 11% last year and we are looking for a further 10% fall this year. To explain that measurement, in the Sláintecare report, on an all-party basis, we agreed that nobody should wait more than ten weeks if they need to see consultant and no more than 12 weeks if they need an operation and the numbers waiting longer than that fell in 2022. We are determined to make sure they fall again in 2023. There will always be people, as I am sure the Deputy will acknowledge, who are waiting five, six or ten weeks but we want to make sure that nobody is waiting more than that. That number fell in 2022 and we believe it will fall again in 2023.

In terms of patient outcomes, we have one of the best life expectancies in Europe. I think it is the highest in the EU now, but I might be wrong about that. That is not because we have such wonderfully healthy lifestyles in Ireland, that we barely drink or smoke and we all get a lot of exercise - far from it. The main reason is that our health service delivers very good outcomes, which is largely down to the quality of our front-line staff. Outcomes for stroke, heart attack and cancer are improving and are way better now than the outcomes in the NHS, which some people think is an example we should follow. Why would we follow an example that has worse outcomes for cancer, stroke and heart attack patients, lower life expectancy and all of those patient outcomes that the Deputy mentioned?

Do not get me wrong - I do not want to downplay for one second the problems that we have in our health service, particularly in emergency departments. I have been in every single one in the country, probably more than once, and have worked in four of them. I am horrified at the fact that patients have to spend hours and hours on a trolley waiting for admission to a hospital bed. It is one thing if that happens for a few hours or if patients are in a cubicle but I know that patients waiting on trolleys in corridors for more than six or eight hours results in reduced patient outcomes. We know that from research from western Australia, America and the UK. That is a profound problem that we have been struggling to get on top of for a very long time.

There is one thing that the Deputy and I agree on - I do not think that closing emergency department is the solution. I do not think an emergency department in Ireland has been closed in ten years. No emergency department closed when I was Taoiseach or Tánaiste. As far as I remember, the last time was when the department in St. Colmcille's hospital closed and that was part of an agreement between Wexford and St. Vincent's hospital and it has worked reasonably well. It did not work very well in the mid-west and we are still trying to build up University Hospital Limerick, UHL, so that it works better and to make better use of the other hospitals in the region. The Deputy has heard me speak about that previously.

In Navan specifically, the change in the ambulance protocol makes sense, whereby ambulances are taking critically ill patients to bigger hospitals where they can get better care. I would not like to see the emergency department in Navan closed and certainly not before the other hospitals in the region are significantly upgraded. I know that if it was closed, it would have a very negative impact on Connolly Hospital, which is my local hospital and on Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. That is why the Government has resisted proposals to shut it down all together.

I will make one final comment on negligence. I do not believe that Irish doctors, midwives, nurses, and scientists are any more negligent than their counterparts in any other part of the world. Mistakes happen in healthcare. The vast majority of the cases the Deputy mentioned were settled but they were settled without an acknowledgement of liability or negligence and it is important to say that. We have fabulous doctors, nurses, midwives and scientists and the fact that a case is settled is not an admission of negligence.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The number of adverse incidents has increased by 25% in the last number of years. The system is getting worse. There is no effort here on my part to blame anybody------

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does "the last number of years" mean? What period is the Deputy referring to?

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In 2019, the figure for adverse incidents was 75,000 while in 2021, the figure was 105,000. Again, most of those adverse incidents are likely to have happened because doctors and nurses are under so much pressure because of the lack of staff in those systems. When Simon Harris was Minister for Health, he commissioned a report that showed there was a direct correlation between under-staffing on wards and adverse incidents.

This is a micro-example of what is happening in the HSE. Yesterday, management held a big staff meeting in Navan. It took all the leather chairs out of the accident and emergency department and left them up in the staff meeting. When there were 35 people waiting in the accident and emergency department after being triaged, they had nowhere to sit and sat on the ground for hours waiting to be dealt with. There is a complete chasm between senior management and people working on the front line.

When the Taoiseach compares and contrasts, he compares to worse years and worse countries. He is very able to do this and it is a good debating tactic in terms of brushing back criticism of Government action. If you look at all of the trends in key performance indicators in the health service, they have been going in the wrong direction over the past 15 years. Funding in the HSE should be on the basis of activity. Right now, lots of hospitals in this country have theatres that are closed for months and everybody gets paid the same amount. If we started to pay hospitals on the basis of the number of patients they consult with, treat or operate on and if there was a relationship between the funding of hospitals and their outputs, I imagine we would see improved productivity and outcomes for patients in the long run.

The next issue that concerns competency is migration. Many communities have dealt very well and very positively with people coming from war zones and places of violence in the past while for which we commend them. I am not speaking on that side of the debate. I want to look at the Government's response. A total of 85% of people who offered private accommodation to migrants from different countries were not activated. These are people who wanted to give homes to people coming to the country but many of them never got phone calls. In April, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth identified 500 buildings that are suitable for people coming in from other countries but by December, only ten were in use. I tabled a parliamentary question to see how many buildings had been purchased by the Department to accommodate people coming here from other countries. As of early January, the figure was 31 but only one was in use. We had promises that modular homes would be up and running and providing accommodation for people in October and here we are in March. I do not think any of them is standing in any part of the country. These are outputs and targets created by the Government but they have been spectacularly missed on a regular basis. This is the competency issue that is at the heart of the inertia and bureaucratic mechanisms regarding not achieving the goals that are necessary to achieve to help people.

The average waiting time in 2022 for an application for asylum to be processed was 18 months. Eighteen months is not fair on the asylum seeker and it is not helpful to the system because the system must deal with larger numbers. According to a reply to parliamentary question I received, at the start of this year,14,000 people were still waiting for their applications to be processed. We want to run an efficient and humane system but those figures are pointing to an inefficient and inhumane system. Why is it that in respect of those six performance indicators, the Government's figures show they are wide of the mark?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe migration is a good thing. If it was not for migration, I would not exist. My parents met in England when they were both migrants. My mother was an Irish nurse while my father was an Indian doctor. Migration has been broadly a good thing for Ireland. When I got into the big tech and pharma companies that are employing so many people and paying so much tax in Ireland, I see a very diverse and multilingual workforce. It is one of the reasons why they are here. When I go into hospitals, I see a very diverse workforce and I suggest that we would not be able to run our public services at all without migration. It has also made Ireland a more interesting place and enriches us culturally. I always like to say that when I talk about migration because it is important to frame that. Believing in appropriate controlled migration does not mean you are against migration. We are probably in a similar space in that regard.

Regarding many of the offers of accommodation that have been made by people, I acknowledge that we could have done a better job. The Ukraine war happened. Tens of thousands of people were on the move. Thousands of people offered accommodation and we were not set up to deal with that. We relied very much on the Red Cross to do it for us and the Red Cross is a small organisation and struggled to deal with it too. It is much better now. I went through the experience myself because we took somebody from Ukraine into our home. Unfortunately, a lot of those offers did not materialise - not because of fault on the part of the Government or the Red Cross. People were contacted and did not get back to us. People did need to go through a certain amount of procedure such as Garda vetting and some people were unwilling to do that. A doctor I know decided to withdraw the offer to accommodate somebody from Ukraine because he was annoyed at being asked to be Garda vetted. There are also stories of people who did not get a call and were very annoyed that they did not. When you go through the process, you are asked to make a minimum commitment of six months. I can understand that when the war started and people saw these horrific scenes on the news and saw people from Ukraine fleeing to Europe, they thought "I'd love to take in somebody in for a few weeks or maybe take somebody in for a few months". When they were told that the minimum commitment was six months and it could be longer, a lot of people for totally understandable reasons were not willing to go forward with their offer so that was part of it too. However, I do acknowledge that it could have been done better. I met lots of people who were very annoyed that weeks after making an offer, they received very little or no contact.

We will have people in modular homes in the next few weeks. I get worried sometimes when people talk about modular housing or modern methods of construction because they sometimes talk about them as though they are quick and cheap options that can produce thousands of houses in a few weeks. That is not the case. We have been through this and it is going to be a reality. You need a site, it needs to be serviced with electricity, it needs a road to it and water connections and you have to order the modular unit and are often put in a queue. The people who make modular units have order books and you have to join the queue. You need to work out some really practical things that we discovered as we started learning by doing when it comes to this. Getting the modular unit from the factory to the site is one example. You have to make sure there are no low bridges because you cannot get the modular unit under the low bridge. These are all things we did not know and we had to discover by doing. Yes, it is part of the solution - I am all for it - but let us not tell people that modular housing or modern methods of construction are quick and cheap ways of getting houses. They are not. They are about the same cost and possibly a bit quicker and we are doing it.

I agree with the Deputy about speeding up decisions on asylum applications. We have to speed up decisions. We are investing an extra €18 million this year in doing that so that in respect of people, particularly those coming from safe countries, which is close to half if not the majority of asylum seekers, an initial decision is made in the first three months.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I need to move on. If we need to have five minutes each from each of the-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I take those five minutes at this point?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is an unusual procedure. Is the Deputy going to tell us that he has an urgent meeting that is more important than this one?

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nothing is more important than this one but I have to get to another committee meeting.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do other members agree to allow Deputy Tóibín in? Agreed.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Government is seeking a slogan for the next election then it should choose "in the next few weeks" because when we ask about the windfall tax we are told "in the next few weeks". Everything seems to be horizon politics. The promised land is on the horizon but when we get to that moment in time it still seems to be further on, unfortunately.

On cross-Border issues and the crisis in the North of Ireland, I sometimes think that we do not realise how bad things are and that the Good Friday Agreement is actually toast in many ways. The structures of the Good Friday Agreement includes the North-South Ministerial Council and Stormont Assembly, which do not meet and the Executive, which does not function. All of this is happening, and the Taoiseach is right to raise this on a regular basis, when the population in the North is significantly suffering from the issues of housing, health and education that we talk about.

Recently, some startling facts came out. The life span of people in the North is akin to many west African countries; the level of people in the North expecting to live physically healthy lives is ten years less than that of the South; the level of people using food banks is radically increasing in the North; and hospitals such as Causeway Hospital, the South West Acute Hospital in Enniskillen, and the Daisy Hill Hospital, are all radically shedding services. Miss McIlveen, when she was the Minister of Education in the North, before the collapse of the Assembly said there was a £750 million hole in the education budget. So things are very serious right across the socioeconomic elements in the Six Counties and part of the reason is the fact that there is no functioning government. While I respect that major efforts have been made by the European Union and Rishi Sunak's Government to achieve the Windsor Framework, which is a good outcome, I predicted before that that the Democratic Unionist Party would not accept it. Unfortunately, the DUP is focused on its narrow political ambitions. The DUP is afraid of losing votes to the Traditional Unionist Voice, TUV, and will not accept the majoritarian view in the North that we should have a functioning Assembly and Executive. Even the DUP's decision to wait until after the elections to give a decision on this matter shows how politicised its approach is to the Windsor Framework.

I know that the Taoiseach is cautious about making a statement on this matter because he understands the delicate balance in the negotiations and I respect his stance. However, there comes a time where Irish citizens and people in the North of Ireland are entitled to a functional democracy; their MLAs, who are getting paid money, to do their job and work on housing, health and education for them; and to be able to feed their families, and switch on the lights and turn on the heat in their homes. The Government needs to be able to say that if the DUP does not accept the framework that it will be implemented anyway, and there will be a decision and an agreement between the European Union that will be acceptable. Also, if the DUP does not do the right thing, we will have to change the manner in which the Assembly functions and ensure no political party can crash the Assembly ever again, and that no political party can stop an Executive being formed.

Finally, will the Taoiseach say that the Irish Government will bring the British Government to the European Court of Human Rights if it proceeds with the absolutely horrendous Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, which seeks to give amnesty to people who have murdered innocent individuals in the North of Ireland over the past 50 years?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First, I do not believe that the Good Friday Agreement is toast. We will mark 25 years of that agreement this year, 25 years of peace in Northern Ireland. Notwithstanding the fact that the-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the work of the Assembly?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Peace is probably the most important part of that. It is a fact that we do not have or at least we have very little political violence in Northern Ireland, and that both the British-Irish Council, BIC, and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference are operating. Sadly, as Deputy Tóibín pointed out, the Assembly, the Executive and the North-South Ministerial Council are not. That is deeply regrettable. It is because of the DUP veto. The other four major parties - Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the Alliance Party and the Ulster Unionist Party - are willing to participate in a government.

We now have the Windsor Framework. I hope that the DUP, after careful consideration, will be able to accept the framework and then the parties can get down to talking about restoring devolved government in Northern Ireland, in which we will not seek to interfere but we will help in any way that we can. We are keen to help any new government that gets up and running in the North in any way that we can because we want it to be a success, and we want the problems that have been mentioned to be solved.

The Windsor Framework is an agreement between the EU, including Ireland, and the UK Government. My understanding is that we will ratify the framework as Europe and probably at the European Council at the end of March. Although the European Parliament may need to make some changes to the framework it will ultimately be a judgment call for the British Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, as to when he decides to proceed with it and whether he decides to proceed with it absent of the support of all five parties. That is a judgment he has to make and I do not want to put any pressure on him in that regard. He has shown enormous leadership and steel to bring us this far so I do not want to say anything that makes his job harder. It is great to have a UK Government who has brought us this far, in my view.

On the legacy Bill, we oppose the Bill as we think it is wrong. All five parties in Northern Ireland are opposed to it and think it is wrong. I am sure that I will discuss the matter in the US next week because the US Congress has taken an interest in this matter. The Bill is one of the things I want to speak to President Biden about. I look forward to meeting Prime Minister Sunak and I will talk to him about the Bill. At the moment what we want to do is try to persuade the British Government, the House of Lords and the House of Commons not to go down this road. We do not rule out a court challenge but taking your nearest neighbour to court is not a small thing to do and it could sour relations between our Government and the Government in Westminster. We do not want to go down that road at the moment but we are not ruling it out. What we want to work on now is persuasion and trying to persuade the UK Government that this really is not the right course of action. We want to ask it to listen to the victims' groups, in particular, on this and, in particular, the five parties in Northern Ireland that are not unanimous on many things but actually are on this. We have a process in the Stormont House Agreement, which I think is the one to follow.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Later I will comment on the same Good Friday Agreement issue mentioned by Deputy Tóibín but first I shall comment on the eviction ban, which is an issue that we touched on earlier. We can disagree right now about the outcome of the eviction ban. Let us say that I turn out to be right. and we do see a massive increase in homelessness and huge pressures because there is no emergency accommodation available and we will see the massive knock-on effects of that. Does the Taoiseach believe at that point that he and the Government will reconsider getting rid of the eviction ban?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has mentioned a lot of hypothetical things.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been a massive increase in homelessness.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there is a massive increase in homelessness then we must figure out what is the best way to reverse that. Would the reimposition of an eviction ban for a number of months do that? It probably would not and I think what we would have to do then is step up our activities in other areas such as building more social housing; step up the work that we do to prevent homelessness; step up cost-rental; and put in place a package, which we will do, to encourage small landlords, in particular, to stay in or re-enter the market. If I honestly believed that an eviction ban for four or six months would reduce homelessness then I would have done it in the last four to six months when we had a ban in place so why would reintroducing the ban do it?

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously, I would hope that all those things that the Taoiseach has said he would do if he saw an increase in homelessness, he would do anyway. The whole point is that the eviction ban is in place to give the Government breathing space to deliver the homes that are obviously needed in order to stop people entering homelessness. That is clear but the eviction ban does give that breathing space. We have seen the example of Scotland, where the Scottish Government has decided to extend the ban to 30 September.

We know at this very moment there is not that alternative for most people who are facing homelessness. Obviously, I would hope the Taoiseach will be doing all those things he listed out anyway to provide those homes. What we do not want to see is more people going into homelessness. My concern, and this is the point, is that I believe we are just going to see an increase in homelessness now as a result of that. We need, therefore, to continue the eviction ban.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate and respect the Deputy's views on this. I have a different analysis, however. I am always open to the possibility that one can be proven wrong. I have been right about many things in the past and wrong about other things. We will always keep an open mind on policy decisions.

With regard to Scotland, just because they are extending it does not mean it is the right thing to do. Has it worked in Scotland? What will they do on 30 September? Will they keep rolling it on repeatedly or will they then withdraw it? It will be interesting to see what happens in Scotland. I do not think anyone can say that Scotland is a great success when it comes to homelessness or matters such as this, but let us see. The difficulty I have is with a long-term eviction ban or rolling eviction ban, which is where we would end up. The Labour Party said to extend it to a few months. Sinn Féin said extend it to the end of the year and lift it just after Christmas. I do not honestly believe that would happen. We would end up rolling it on repeatedly, probably for years. What would the problem be with that? Number one, it creates a new form of homelessness in terms of people coming home from abroad. Some 30,000 Irish citizens come back to Ireland every year. Some of them own houses and apartments and are not able to move back into them. People who are going abroad to Australia, Dubai or America for a year or two probably would not rent out their place for fear of never being able to move back in They would probably pay the vacant property tax rather than risk never being able to move back into their property. We would, therefore, see an increase in vacancy.

What we need is more landlords, especially small landlords, coming into the market. Landlords will always leave. People die or cash their pensions. The big problem is not just landlords leaving in big numbers, however. It is so few coming in. A rolling or on-and-off eviction ban or long-term eviction ban would disincentivise small landlords. It would not be an issue so much for the institutions, by the way, because they do not seek vacant positions. It is the small landlords who would just say they are not going to do this, and that they would rather buy a property in Northern Ireland or Liverpool and rent that out instead and that is what they will do with their money. That would be a real shame if people who have money to invest and could provide somewhere for people to rent decide to buy a property in Spain, England, Derry or Belfast where they would not face these measures.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware I am short on time. On that point, obviously, the issue is that housing supply needs to be increased. The way to resolve this issue is by increasing social and affordable housing. I was very disappointed to hear about the affordable housing scheme in Galway city for which many people and young families were hoping. We have been hearing talk about this since 2019. Then we were told it was not going to come on stream until April. Now I am hearing it will be 2025, which is very disappointing for people. That is where the focus and delivery needs to be. I am deeply concerned at the lifting of this eviction ban, however.

I am under time pressure but I want to touch briefly on something raised by an Teachta Tóibín with regard to the Good Friday Agreement and the constitutional future of this island. I sit on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which met this week in Stormont when we marked the 25th anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. In the middle of this meeting, I was also writing a little article of my memories of the Good Friday Agreement, which are limited because I was eight years old. I do have memories around that time, of course. I have memories of the impacts it had on different families and my family from the North. I have many memories in that regard more so than the political campaign or anything like that. I do not remember the Good Friday Agreement campaign so to speak. What I am interested in hearing, and this is something I raised with the previous Taoiseach, is about a citizens' assembly on the constitutional question. It is something in which I believe strongly. It is one of those things I believe should have cross-party support in the Dáil. We can only benefit in bringing people together from all different points of view and different backgrounds to discuss the constitutional future of this island. We might look at what happened with Brexit and how poorly that referendum was run in terms of people not having the information and not having thrashed out those different issues. It can only be of benefit to us to have a citizens' assembly on the constitutional future of this island. I always say there are no two people in this room, no matter if we are all in the same party, who have the same view as to what a united Ireland would look like. That is why we need to have those conversations. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's view on that.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the Taoiseach to respond and then I will round up and put the question.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remember the Good Friday Agreement well. I was 18 or 19 years old at the time. It was the first time I was entitled to vote. I remember the enormous optimism of the time. I recall the result coming in. It was over 70%, which indicated that it had a majority of both communities supporting it, and that was crucial. Unfortunately, while the Good Friday Agreement is genius and is the way forward, and in my view remains the way forward, it did not live up to the hopes, optimism and promise of the time. It has been a cold piece, essentially, since then with institutions throughout Northern Ireland. There has not been the level of integration we would have hoped for, but it is still the way forward in my view. It is still the basis for the future of Northern Ireland and this island.

On the idea of a citizens' assembly, I am not sure it is the best mechanism to explore constitutional issues. There are potential other models. The Deputy is younger than me but I am sure she will have read about the New Ireland Forum, which was established in the early 1980s. There are different mechanisms we could use to explore these issues. When the Northern Ireland Assembly is up and running, the Executive is functioning and things are a bit more stable, that is probably the time to do it. At the moment, it would be seen as provocative. We need to be careful about that. If we did have a citizens' assembly, however, there are a couple of things we would have to figure out. Would people from Protestant, unionist and loyalist backgrounds participate in it? It would not be worth a penny candle if they did not.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think some people would.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One voice, please.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, some would, but would they be representative of their communities? That is one thing we would have to bear in mind. Would it be 50:50 or would it be 7:2 in terms of population? Would any decision made by a simple majority? Would we have to have a double majority of the communities or a double majority North and South? When I ask these questions, I get the impression people have not thought that through yet.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Bringing people together-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have one voice, please?

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will not know how many people would want to take part-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One voice, please.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is just my voice.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is now. It is going to be one voice.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Leas-Chathaoirleach means the Taoiseach's voice.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am happy to hear the Deputy.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not mind.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Am I allowed to continue?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can drag on after 12 o'clock.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are we not allowed to?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will not have to run to catch up.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is funny, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. Bringing this forward and allowing people from different communities to come together is important. I genuinely believe that conversation is happening. I am in the North quite a bit. I really believe the conversation on the constitutional future is happening regardless of what politicians might be saying. I personally think people from different communities would come together in that regard.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The conversation is happening. Certainly, as Taoiseach and Head of Government, I want to be part of it. It is a particularly sensitive time. Like the former Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, said the other day, I would much rather be talking about these matters in the context of a Westminster Framework that is done with an assembly and Executive that is up and running and functioning. It would potentially be provocative at this time, or it may be misrepresented by some rather than being provocative. Perhaps a citizens' assembly would be the mechanism to do it, but it is not the only one. There are potential other models. It is something we should talk about, however. We should talk about all the parties on the island. If it was suddenly announced and we found that the unionist parties and Alliance Party of Northern Ireland said it was a bad idea, it would be kind of dead on day one. It would be a pan-nationalist citizens' assembly, and that is the last thing we need. We would need to tread carefully when it comes to these things, but not run away from them.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will say just a couple of things in rounding up. The Taoiseach has dealt adequately dealt with all the issues in his opening statement, as did the members of the committee in their respectful statements, and I thank everyone for that.

A couple of things need commenting on, especially the housing situation, to which you yourself referred, a Thaoisigh, as did the members. The important thing is to have a fallback position when and if the problems that are predicted arise. The fallback position, how we can respond quickly to a situation that emerges for some people who are worried about it, is hugely important. It is recognised, however, that the existence of a ban on evictions did not solve the problem; it just postponed it for a while. The provision of that treatment for the housing situation still stands, particularly when we compare it with the situation in my early days in politics. I remember when the local authorities built on average 700 to 800 houses per annum and, on what were at that time called small dwellings acquisition, SDA, loans from the county council, somewhere in the region of 300 to 400 on top of that. That was a thousand houses a year, roughly, in various local authority areas, of which Kildare was one. We have not been able to come up with that but we are making strides and things are happening, and that is correct.

Women's issues and gender issues all need to be dealt with as a matter of urgency. The Constitution was fine in 1937 but it no longer applies or could apply or reflects the people or their thinking at this time. I have brought to your attention previously in the House, a Thaoisigh, some of the issues affecting women, mothers in particular, in the family law courts at present. I know that is an issue that you are dealing with and that will be dealt with. It needs to be dealt with. There are situations we do not know about throughout the country where mothers have been separated from their children for up to three, four or five years for no reason at all except to conform to a mythical theory that could never exist and was never accepted by contemporaries. We were looking forward to changes to that situation and a recognition of the importance of women, not necessarily women in the home, but women's role in society and the tremendous job they have to do.

I will finish on the health issue. I happened to be in a situation in recent weeks where I had to avail of emergency services in one of our hospitals. I was very impressed. I was impressed by the ease with which I gained access, the way the matter was dealt with by the staff and the courteous manner in which they did so, even though they were under stress. There were several people in the waiting area but the staff dealt with them. It should be remembered that not all the people who attend at a hospital at any given time can be dealt with in the same moment, especially in an emergency department. It is not possible to do it. If a hundred people turn up, unless you have a hundred consultants, a hundred doctors and so on to do all the preliminaries, you cannot treat them all in five minutes. It cannot be done. I give full credit to the hospital services and the manner in which the staff deal with this issue and, in the teaching hospitals, teach at the same time. I was very impressed by my experience. We generally do not do ourselves any credit when we criticise the health services all the time. That has a demoralising effect on the staff in hospitals. It does not do any good. It does not solve the problem and only makes the staff feel more down at heel. They are doing a very difficult job. It should be remembered that we had an economic crisis and Covid, both of which affected all these issues. It was remarkable to be able to stand up to the pressure in the way the staff and all the services throughout the country did when compared with other European countries, as you mentioned, a Thaoisigh.

That concludes my summing up. Does the Taoiseach want to make any final comment before I propose the report?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, thank you, Chairman.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No more information is required. Enough information has been dispensed already, the Taoiseach will be glad to know.