Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 9 March 2023
Public Accounts Committee
2021 Financial Statements of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland: Discussion
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to this morning's meeting. No apologies have been received. Those attending in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Mary Henry deputy director of Audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning we will engage with officials from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. We are joined by the following officials from SEAI: Mr. William Walsh, chief executive officer; Ms Marion O'Brien, director of corporate services; Dr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport; and Ms Margie McCarthy, director of research, policy and insights. We are joined remotely by the following officials from SEAI: Ms Olivia O'Connor, head of finance and ICT; and Mr. Tom Halpin, head of marketing and communications. We are also joined by the following representatives from the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications: Mr. Barry Quinlan, assistant secretary; and Ms Linda O'Rourke, assistant principal. We are also joined from the Department of Transport by Dr. Aoife O'Grady, principal officer. All are very welcome.
I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or are on silent mode. I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence within parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute. Those in the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such directions. Two of today's witnesses are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and as such may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal prosecutions as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses have already been advised that they may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.
Members are reminded of the provision of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland works with Irish householders, businesses, communities and Government agencies with the objective of creating a cleaner and more efficient energy future. In addition, it supports the development of clean energy technologies. The authority's income in 2021 totalled €231.5 million. This was an increase of 54% from 2020. Almost all of the authority's income in 2021 came from Exchequer cash grants. The authority received just over €156 million in 2021 from Vote 29, Environment Climate and Communications, for the authority's main sustainable energy schemes. Members may recall that the 2021 appropriation account for Vote 29 indicates there was a significant underspend in the amount transferred to the authority relative to the amount made available by Dáil Éireann. The funding was not required by the authority due to the impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic, supply chain failures and labour availability limitations.
The authority received €69 million in 2021 from Vote 31, Transport, in respect of the electric vehicles programme. This was a new funding stream in 2021 and accounts for a substantial part of the increase in the authority's funding year on year. Expenditure in 2021 amounted to just under €231 million. Almost 91% of this expenditure was incurred in relation to a wide range of grant schemes, details of which are provided in note 7 to the financial statements.
The authority also has responsibilities for registering building energy rating, BER, assessors, the provision of related IT tools and systems for BER assessments, logging BER assessment results in its national register, and overall scheme management and promotion. BER scheme income for 2021 was €3.15 million, while expenditure on scheme activities amounted to €2.8 million. The authority's expenditure an administration amounted to €1.8 million in 2021. The surplus on the authority's operations for 2021 was €702,000. This contrasts with a deficit of €888,000 incurred in 2020.
I certified the 2021 financial statements on 30 June 2022. Subsequently the authority reformatted and incorporated the financial statements along with my audit certificate into its 2021 annual performance report. The annual report was submitted to the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications which arranged for it to be presented to the Oireachtas Library and Research Service on 19 December 2022.
In preparing for this meeting, the liaison officer identified that the authority had made a serious transcription error and that the annual report presented to the Oireachtas incorrectly states that the authority's financial outcome for 2021 was a deficit of €888,000. The 2020 outcome figure stated is also incorrect. Further examination of the annual report identified that there were a number of other transcription errors in the financial statements as presented.
Public bodies have a clear and simple obligation to present financial statements as audited by me to the Houses of the Oireachtas. In this case, prompt presentation by the authority and the Department of the correct financial statements is required, showing the correct audited figures. Given the nature of the authority's main activity as a grant giver, key value for money issues include the extent to which relevant and meaningful output and outcome targets are set for each of the grant programmes. These should included short-term, intermediate targets, as well as medium- and long-term strategic targets, whether the authority has adequate systems in place to measure and report on the outputs and outcomes achieved and whether scarce Exchequer resources are being applied in ways that maximise the long-term benefits to Irish society.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before I call Mr. Walsh, I want to express the committee's concern at that situation with the financial statements that were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas with errors. I note also that they were laid late. We have now received the SEAI's corrected annual report, but we have serious concerns about how the SEAI submitted these accounts to the Department with the errors and the reasons the Department did not pick up on them. Obviously, there were issues around due diligence when accounts were being laid before the Houses. I just want to convey that to the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Mr. Walsh has five minutes for his opening statement and I invite him to proceed.
Mr. William Walsh:
I thank the Chair and committee member for the invitation to attend the meeting today to discuss the SEAI financial statements for 2021. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Marion O'Brien, director of corporate services; Mr. Ciaran Byrne, director of national retrofit; Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport; and Ms Margie McCarthy, director of research, policy and insights. I am joined online by Ms Olivia O'Connor, head of finance, and Mr. Tom Halpin, head of communications. We have submitted additional briefing materials to the committee in advance of today's appearance and I thank the committee for the opportunity to make our opening statement.
SEAI is Ireland's national energy authority. Last year, we launched our new strategic plan 2022-2025, supporting SEAI as we scale up to deliver our 2030 and 2050 targets, driving Ireland's sustainable energy transformation for the benefit of all society. Our strategy sets out a clear vision to lead Ireland's energy revolution. This revolution requires fundamental change across all aspects of Irish society and will transform the way we all live. Over the past five years, SEAI has grown four-fold. This growth is underpinned by the increasing urgency of our work. We appreciate the continued trust and confidence that is shown to us by Government, as evidenced by the budget allocation for 2023, which amounts to just under €600 million. We are an organisation that is committed to delivering our targets through a well-governed and customer-centric system.
SEAI has built successes on the foundation of a strong governance framework. Our culture and activities continue to be underpinned by this from design to implementation. We are proud to have retained our SWiFT 3000 certification during the past year. In parallel, we have invested in our people with significant growth in our staff and expertise, which is essential to delivering our climate and energy targets. We attended the committee in March last year and outlined our ambition for 2022, which included significant growth across all aspects of our work. I am happy to report to the committee that we have substantively delivered on those ambitions. This is despite uncertainty in the global economy and energy sector due to the ongoing geopolitical crisis.
Highlights from SEAI's 2022 achievements include the following: we supported 27,200 home energy upgrades including almost 4,500 energy-poor homes. We deployed the new one-stop shop service announced by the Minister in February 2022. We have committed €63 million to 24 community energy products and are supporting the development of 35 potential community renewable electricity projects. We have supported more than 2,500 businesses in their energy transition. Through funding from the Department of Transport, we have grant-aided the purchase of 10,894 battery electric vehicles, EVs. We have published Ireland's national heat study, which is feeding into the evolving national heat policy. Our public sector partnerships scaled up to support 350 public sector bodies in their climate action roadmap development, energy management and emissions reduction strategy. We launched the "Reduce Your Use" public sector campaign in partnership with the Office of Public Works, OPW, supporting the public sector mandate to reduce energy consumption over the winter.
SEAI was designated under statute as the market surveillance authority and single point of contact for renewable energy projects. We launched the new energy efficiency obligations scheme. We have input across a range of policies and climate actions in 2022, including supporting and informing policy making through the provision of data, funding and performing research and providing insights on Ireland's energy performance and transition. We have approved 44 new national energy research, development and demonstration projects, totalling €19 million in funding. In 2022, our customer contacts centre served almost 280,000 enquires from our customers across all our programmes. Further achievements are detailed within the briefing pack.
2022 was significant in many other ways. Setting aside the core programme delivery, the Russian invasion of Ukraine prompted an energy crisis and further exacerbated the cost-of-living crisis. These impacted our programmes in different ways. People wanted to save energy and reduce bills and so turned to SEAI for advice and support. However, for some of those, it may have been unaffordable, and for others, they were challenged by contractor availability and post-pandemic supply chain issues.
SEAI informed the development of the Climate Action Plan 2023, in which we expect to play a lead role across many actions. To meet the demands, we have built our capacity in numbers and additional competencies to ensure we are fit for purpose for the decade ahead. Members of the Committee of Public Accounts may have noted our recent recruitment campaign. In 2022, many sectors were impacted by the capacity and skills gap, and this is particularly evident in the wider construction sector. We would like to acknowledge the work of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, as well as other Departments and agencies in supporting the development of skills and apprenticeship pipelines.
What SEAI achieved in 2022 supported the just transition by delivering on our fully-funded energy upgrade schemes, supporting households that received certain welfare payments, while also enabling low-cost measures in homes with immediate impact during this period of high energy costs. We also increased grant levels and provided greater choice for shallow and deeper retrofit works. The Government's determination to drive Ireland's clean energy transition could not be clearer. Aside from meeting our targets, decarbonisation will deliver enormous benefits to society, including healthier environments in which to live, employment opportunities and increased efficiencies and competitiveness.
Ireland is a world leader in many aspects of the energy transition, such as wind energy deployment and progress on home energy upgrades. SEAI will work tireless with all energy users and guide and support them in their energy transition with the underpinning goal of a decarbonised society. Members of the committee and elected representatives more broadly will play a key role in mobilising and supporting constituents and communities to take action to reduces and decarbonise their energy. Before closing, I would like to invite the committee members to visit the SEAI Energy Show 2023, which will take place in the RDS on 29 and 30 March. This exhibition will attract more than 4,000 attendees and is the clearest demonstration possible of the vibrance and innovation of the sustainable energy sector that is rapidly becoming a key pillar of our economy.
I would like to bring it to the attention of the committee that the financial statements for 2021 were audited by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, approved by the board of SEAI and duly assigned ahead of the deadline of 30 June 2022. These financial statements were incorporated into the SEAI annual report for the Oireachtas on December 2022. Unfortunately, there were transposition errors in the reproduction of the financial statements into the annual report. There are no errors in the financial statements certified by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I wish to apologise for this administrative error and for any inconvenience that has been caused to members who are now in receipt of the corrected annual report, which includes the correct version of the financial statements. We have made the appropriate adjustments to our processes to ensure this does not reoccur.
In conclusion, I want to acknowledge the strategic leadership provided by the board of SEAI and thank the staff for their commitment and dedication and, in particular, their efforts and support as we scale at pace to meet increasing targets. I wish to thank our colleagues at the Departments of Environment, Climate and Communications, and Transport and the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, for their ongoing support, particularly in the context of the actions assigned to SEAI under the Climate Action Plan 2023 and with our ever-increasing mandate.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My first question is to the Comptroller and Auditor General about what he said about the accounts. To clear this up, does he see it as a transposition error?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine. It is just to clear that up. It is good that I asked the question because that clears it up.
I am very supportive of what SEAI does. I do not think the public is fully aware of how wide a mandate it has and the disparate areas it is involved in. I say this as a former Minister with responsibility for climate change that it is almost as if there were a range of issues and the right authority to allocate them to was the SEAI as the issues filtered down. There were bits here, there and everywhere. It is good but it causes challenges because they are all distinct and very different.
On the SEAI's accounts, why has only 43% of its budget allocation of €306 million in 2021 been used?
Mr. William Walsh:
It is great that the Deputy has recognised the disparate nature of much of the work we do. Some of it is publicly focused and some of it focused on business and the public sector. The actions, activities and responsibilities assigned to the organisations are around the theme of energy. The work put into SEAI can benefit from the expertise in the organisation.
I will ask my colleague, the director of corporate services, Ms O'Brien to speak on the expenditure in 2021.
Ms Marion O'Brien:
On 2021, in the overall context of the budget allocation from all sources, we spent around 65% of our budget allocation. As the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out, we overspent on electric vehicles and there was some underspend on the national retrofit programmes. We were still in the Covid-19 pandemic in the early part of 2021, and even as we got into our warmer homes scheme, there was some slow take-up and people were nervous about getting into homes and doing work in the early part of the year. It was towards the latter part of 2021 that we were able to scale our programmes back up and deliver our national retrofit targets.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Covid had an impact.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I deal with many people who are looking for various grants etc. run by the SEAI, such as the warmer homes scheme and a few more. From what I have seen, the issue is that the application process can take up to 13 months and the administration process, regarding delivery, can take 14 months. That is 27 months. I have a bit of sympathy for the SEAI on this because there are issues across the construction industry around human resources and so on, but what is SEAI doing to bring that down? It is a complaint that is made to me and every other Deputy in this building. Everybody wants this now so what is the authority doing to bring down the timelines?
Mr. William Walsh:
I will hand that to the director of national retrofit, Dr. Ciaran Byrne. Before that, I want to say that, in 2021, we did around 2,500 fuel poverty homes and last year about 4,800. This year we will do 6,000. That is improving the lives of 6,000 people from fuel poverty. We are also working to develop processes and mechanisms to scale above the 6,000.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are human resources the real issue? Is it getting people to be able to do this work?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I presume it is. It is not a criticism. It is just reality.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I remember.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There were a number of things coming together. We had Covid. Covid was very significant for us in the context of the warmer homes scheme because while certain amounts of construction could take place, such as openings and closings, empty buildings and office blocks, what we were doing in the warmer homes schemes is going into vulnerable people's houses. For pretty much the entirety of 2021 and the early part of 2022, we were able to do very little on the scheme while applications were coming in. I will give a sense of the applications. The warmer homes programme received 2,931 applications in total in 2021. The comparative figure in 2022 was 9,948. On property upgrades, we did about 2,300 or 2,400. The comparative figure was 4,800. Between 2021 and 2022, we doubled our capacity and more in the context of supply chain issues, labour issues and Covid. It was probably this time last year by the time we finally washed through all the Covid restrictions in 2022. That had implications for us in the warmer homes programme because we go into people's houses and, by and large, they are vulnerable people's houses. We had supply chain issues and a massive increase in applications, which have continued to increase because we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and an energy crisis. We have a procured framework for the programme so there are 33 contractors on a procured framework. We have a certain number of contractors and many would have taken on more subcontractors. We worked very hard with that contract to increase the output. We also provided inflationary increases on two occasions. We made some significant changes in how we cash-load and pay them to increase their output. We also increased massively the allocation of homes to contractors to allow them to build in-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is there an issue with contractors and getting people to be able to do this work?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Yes, is the short answer. We are one part of the wider construction sector and it is not just the construction sector but right across the economy. We have a shortage of contractors at this point. As to the framework, we have a prior information notice and we are going back out to tender on a new framework. We are doing our very best to try to encourage more people into this framework.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I respect that. I think there is a major issue which is wider than this committee's remit to try to get people into the industry. I ask Mr. Walsh when the SEAI last met the Office of Public Works, OPW.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am asking in relation to public sector buildings.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Many public sector buildings are quite old. Some others are not. Many of the hospitals, which are huge, probably cannot be retrofitted. What is the plan of action around that? Are there different plans for different sectors, such as education, health, justice etc.?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Yes. We have what are called pathfinder programmes with each of the different sectors. We have a pathfinder with the HSE, one with the OPW, one with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science for the third level institutions, and one ongoing with Department of Education for schools.
For example, the Deputy asked specifically about the HSE. We have worked with the HSE over the past ten years. It recently developed a decarbonisation strategy for its buildings. With some of the hospitals, as the Deputy said, it is not about retrofitting. It will be looking at district heating and getting renewable heat.
Mr. Declan Meally:
As for other options, the new builds will be net zero in electrical heat. The HSE has developed a strategy for its buildings. It has identified the next 20 buildings to be updated and it has worked on 20 already.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are strategies using waste being looked at? For instance, much waste comes out of the large hospitals in Ireland. Is putting in district heating solutions based on waste being looked into?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is the way we will have to go.
Mr. Declan Meally:
That is part of the strategic plan in Dublin - connecting the waste centre in Ringsend to the hospitals and using the waste going into it. The heating coming from it could go into district heating and then be fed through the city, including into the likes of our hospitals and other buildings. It is part of the wider-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are on-site solutions looked at whereby waste is used on site to power these buildings?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Anaerobic digestion, pyrolysis and all that sort of stuff has been around for a while. Will any example or demonstration happen in any public sector area? Given the volume of waste that comes out of any hospital in Ireland, for instance, if that waste were to be used in an appropriate way regarding energy, surely we should be trying to demonstrate that this could be used to perform the heating and water solutions.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It should be looked into. That is the future. It is all very well saying we will put it into Ringsend and all of that sort of stuff. However, I am talking about the effect from a carbon point of view of trucks going from Bantry hospital to Dublin. We will have to look at on-site solutions for public sector buildings. With the amount of waste that comes out of them, surely solutions can be put in place whereby the heating process and all of that can be generated from the waste that is on-site, which makes it cyclical.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, because I have one last question.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
We are on the back of the national heat study published last February, and I know the Deputy would have heard of that. It identified significant potential for district heating throughout the country. We have been working with our parent Department in support of the steering group for district heating. The heat study looked at heat mapping throughout the country and where the highest potential is. That will draw on both anchor heat sources and anchor tenants for the first feasibility implementation of district heating. That means looking at many of the public sector buildings, ensuring they both connect to district heating but also any potential waste heat they can provide into-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The technologies are advancing so quickly. I look into this myself, given my background. The technologies are moving on so quickly that this is a space we need to move into quickly. Other countries are moving into this space. I thank Ms McCarthy and I might follow up directly with her on that.
On the famous electric vehicles, EVs - the SEAI got lumped with that as well, but anyway – how many EVs and home chargers has it approved grant aid for since the programme’s inception? The witnesses might provide the data in tabular form on recent years to the committee afterwards.
Mr. Declan Meally:
The SEAI is working very closely with our colleagues in the Department of Transport. There is the new unit and Ms O’Grady is head of zero emission vehicles Ireland. There are 77,000 EVs on the road and we have grant-aided more than 40,000 of those. Some were not grant-aided because they were not eligible.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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How many last year?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is that above or below what was expected?
Mr. Declan Meally:
It is slightly below what we expected. Part of the reason is the supply chain, which was impacted by Covid in terms of semiconductors, internationally and globally. Manufacturers were not able to get the vehicles. It is now starting to improve. On the overall target, the 77,000 is where we expect to be on the trajectory to the end of 2025, when we want 175,000 on the road. That is the step-change point where we would see-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have one small, final thing. The SEAI administers the grants and I get all that. Is there a hindrance to people taking up those the grants to get EV cars because the public infrastructure around the country is not strong enough? Is that part of the reason the volume of people applying for the grants for the chargers etc. is not there? I would expect that to be the case. I live in rural Ireland. The idea of not being able to get to a point to where you can charge your car quickly is an issue. I would say that hinders the applications going through to the SEAI, which is not its fault, but it is part of a broader conversation we need to have. Would the SEAI representatives accept that?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Not quite. The charging infrastructure is a key focus in terms of the zero emissions vehicles unit in the Department of Transport. That is where we need to go with public charging for people who do not have an off-road parking space. The Deputy has electricity in the home and an opportunity to charge his car at home. A total of 80% of the charging will be done at home. There is a chance, through our grant scheme, to put in a charger, even without the lead, to prepare for the EV. Most of the charging will be done when a person is stopped, at home and asleep, so that it is ready to go-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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A total of 80%.
Mr. Declan Meally:
Yes, 80% of the charging. Therefore, the perception that we need hundreds of thousands of chargers around the country is not accurate. All a person will need is just a splash for a couple of minutes to get home so they can do their charging. Getting that mindset and message out there is key.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is education.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The problem would be if the Deputy wants to go to Mayo, for example, or Leitrim or Sligo. He could find himself like the Dutch ambassador, I believe it was, who could not find a charging point. That is the problem. You might have to knock on the door of somebody who has a charging point and ask to use theirs. You have to find somebody who has one.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There were none where he was going to the meeting, as I understand it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On meeting targets, there are key performance indicators that will be required. Is the supervisory aspect of that done at each Department level? Is that done at the SEAI level? What is the governance arrangement of that?
Mr. William Walsh:
From an SEAI perspective, we have a tight service-level agreement with our parent Department around what we get, what we are funded for and what our outcomes and outputs are for the funding we are given. The climate action plan informs the policymaking and the policymaking then informs the targets that-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have very limited time, so I need a short answer.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That will be the global. Then it comes down to the practical, such as looking at delivery outputs and things like that. The underspend can be accounted for by Covid and with labour market difficulties. Is it tightly controlled? It is important we deliver on these targets in a way that we get best value for money. I am concerned about the control mechanisms.
Ms Marion O'Brien:
We have a range of control measures as you might expect in an organisation of our size and complexity. We are governed internally by an audit committee and a board and we set key performance indicators, KPIs, on a monthly basis. We profile our financial spend on a monthly basis and measure against that. We will adjust and re-profile during the year as things change and we also report on output metrics on a monthly basis.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the reporting go to the Department?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The staffing level was at 93 in 2020. Somewhere around 235 employees are proposed for 2023. What level is the SEAI at now?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Presumably there is a plan of action and a reason for each of those people to be employed. Is the absence of some of those people holding back some of the programmes?
Ms Marion O'Brien:
We have been working to a workforce plan that was prepared about three years ago and approved through Departments, including the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We are filling those jobs as we scale up. Some of them are for new areas and new activities we are taking on. We are taking on some of them this year. In some cases, it is to expand our programmes because as programmes expand, we need more people to deliver them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was quite a substantial increase in the SEAI's budget. The authority needs the ability to deliver on that. We want to see the money spent and spent well. Of equal concern to this committee is underspend, particularly in critical areas like this. Is the SEAI the only body that is grant aiding? Are allocations to local authorities regarded as a separate plan or do they come under the SEAI's remit? Is there a supervisory aspect regarding local authority stock?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That is a separate plan. The budget we have is for our delivery of the grant-aided programmes. We work closely with our colleagues in the local authorities. We recently participated in the built environment task force where we are setting up a sub-committee to deal with retrofitting. They are involved in it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I know that. It is something I kept an eye on because an allocation was made involving possibly 30 houses to one local authority. It was not earth-shattering but it was nonetheless important. The deep retrofit proposals regarding those houses were about €10,000 less than the actual cost of doing the work. Obviously, inflation has kicked in and we can see the difference between what it costs to do it one year and what it costs the next. Does the authority advise the Department about what the cost of a deep retrofit is? If you give a local authority €50,000 per house and it is €10,000 short and the local authority cannot make that shortfall up, effectively the thing does not get rolled out. Where is the expertise regarding costs and inflation? That is a growing amount at a time where there is scaling up and you would expect that there would be some efficiencies regarding scaling up. Does the SEAI have any input into what it costs?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Strictly speaking, we do not advise the Department but we have had interaction with it and share our programme costs with it. We have shared our programme costs with local authorities. Some of the costings pertain to their procurement model and contractors. We have a fully funded scheme where we pay the full amount. We also have the private grants scheme. We see what grant amount we put in but also what the costs are in the market. We share information and say what we think we should be paying in this context.
The Deputy mentioned inflation, something we are very close to. We are watching the entire construction sector. The wholesale price index for construction materials went up year on year for 2022 by about 15.5% or 16% but within that, certain measures like insulation, pipe work and plumbing materials went up by 25%, 30% and 40%. That is part of the reason why we looked at our warmer homes scheme and put in two inflationary increases.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Dr. Byrne expect that when you scale up something in a way that is smart, for example, if you do ten houses next to one another, you will get better outcomes? Doing things at individual contractor level - a "one house here and one house there" approach - strikes me as being quite inefficient in terms of what might be possible. I refer to district-based energy as one area, or even the rooftop revolution in respect of solar power. In terms of scale, it cannot just be dotted around the place but done where you will get multiples. What is the SEAI doing in respect of this?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That is aggregation. The Deputy is on the money. I mentioned earlier that in respect of the warmer homes scheme, we have significantly increased the allocation to contractors in order that they can try to take that aggregation efficiency on that scheme. In the context of working with local authorities, we have an existing programme called the midlands home programme where we looked at aggregation and got some learning from it but Covid got in the way of everything and really upset the balance. We recently signed a memorandum of understanding with Fingal County Council and identified an estate in north Dublin as a pilot area. The estate is about 50:50 in terms of local authority and privately owned. The local authority will retrofit the homes while we will roll in behind it to see if we can encourage private homeowners in that estate to avail of the same contract rates and build that aggregation. We have identified a contractor that is reaching out to homeowners to look at the style, type and depth of retrofit and the type of costs it might cost for local authority homes. We want to see whether we can replicate that package with private homeowners. That builds aggregation where a contractor goes into an estate and effectively works on all homes. The hardest part of this is that the local authority as the homeowner in some cases can decide to retrofit a home to a large extent, the next-door neighbour in a privately owned former local authority house may or may not be able to-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is the big issue - people having the funds to do that.
Regarding the grants provided for charging of electronic vehicles, if somebody avails of that, buys a vehicle and gets the electric charger, can he or she avail of that second time where he or she may change his or her car.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Per premises.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could Dr. Byrne give us a timeline for the Fingal scheme?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The memorandum of understanding is signed and a housing estate has been identified. My understanding is that the local authority is reaching out to homeowners in that estate. We had the contractor lined up and are rolling into that as fast as we can because we need to work through it to get that aggregation so we can build scale across the programme. I would expect that it would start this summer.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the timeline?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will start with deep retrofits. How many were applied for in 2022?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For the deep retrofit - the one-stop shop.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many were completed?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
A total of 643 were completed. Before the one-stop shop deep retrofit programme, we had a pilot project so there was a transition from 2019 through to 2021 and 2022. The applications made in a particular year do not necessarily align with completions in that same year.
Some of the completions in 2022, of which there were 643, would have arisen from applications made in 2021. Similarly, some of the completions this year-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is 804 the total for combined applications in 2021 and 2022 or does that not include 2021?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne give me the total number of applications for deep retrofits through the one-stop shops for 2021 and 2022?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of those, some 643 were completed.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the average total cost of those to date?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is €20,000 for a deep retrofit. Does the SEAI have any way of measuring the BER prior to the retrofit?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We do. For a deep work under the one-stop shop programme, a pre-works BER is a key criterion. I have the figures for BERs post-home energy assessment, HEA. I will give those figures to the Deputy separately. I have those figures assembled by household BER. I cannot pick them out right now but I can give the Deputy all that information.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps we can get those figures at the break. I am seeking the ratings prior to works and at their completion. How many are currently on the waiting list?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There is no waiting list insofar as the one-stop shops are concerned because they are private, in that consumers go to the companies involved. There are pipelines. Companies are engaging and they do programme in retrofits. I would not call it a waiting list. Companies are programming in the deep retrofits.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no waiting list as such and applications are dealt with pretty much straight away. How long are people having to wait?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I cannot give the Deputy that information. The structure of the scheme is that there are 12 one-stop shops, which are private companies, that interact with the customers themselves. We do not have visibility on individual customer journeys with those one-stop shops. We talk to the one-stop shops and get an understanding of their pipelines of works. What is happening is-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the SEAI asks the one-stop shops. As others have said, we have constituents with concerns. One my constituents waited for 18 months after an application for an initial assessment. I am sure the SEAI inquires as to how long people are waiting and is given that information.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The SEAI would have that information.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What would that be?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does nobody here have that information?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why do the witnesses not have that figure? It is a big issue. People who have applied are being told they might be waiting up to two years.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about the deep retrofit scheme. We have not even got on to the shallow retrofit scheme yet. I am asking about the deep retrofit, the one-stop shop. How long are people waiting? I know Dr. Byrne said there is not a waiting list as such at present. How long will those who have applied be waiting for works to be done?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We have 12 different companies and 1,700 works applications in process. I cannot tell the Deputy how long any applicant will be waiting at any given time. We are aware there are extended timelines because the number of companies is restricted and many people are looking for their services.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is for my own curiosity. The SEAI has no interest in keeping an eye on that. People could be left waiting for two years.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I mean. Dr. Byrne does not have the figures to hand. He came to the meeting without the figures. People the length and breadth of the country are giving out about the delays.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know all that and I do not want our witnesses to talk down the clock. They do not have the figures to hand.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can we have them then, please?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to know how long are people waiting. Has the SEAI asked for the figures? Has it sought them and does it have them? Mr. Walsh has just said the SEAI has the figures.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will you just give them to us.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask the Cathaoirleach to stop the clock if this waffling goes on. How long-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy has asked a question. Hold on for a second. If the witnesses do not have the information now, would it be possible to get it before the end of the meeting?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the SEAI is interacting with the one-stop shops on a weekly basis. Can our witnesses give the Deputy a verbal response to the question about the timescales involved? Our guests can then supply written information with more detail. The Deputy is trying to ascertain roughly how long it takes. What is the range involved? Is it one month to 12 months or one month to 24 months? What is the range? Try to help the Deputy.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Our experience has been that is relatively quick to get the home energy assessment done. It could take anywhere between two to six weeks or 12 to 14 weeks. Different one-stop shops have different figures. If it okay with the Cathaoirleach and the Deputy, we will revert by the close of business tomorrow with the details for each of the one-stop shops.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the figures are buried somewhere. Could our guests provide the figures by the time we take a tea break? There must be people online who could source the information.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. There was an 88% decrease in the number of attic and wall cavity insulations in 2022 compared with 2011. What was the reason for that? In 2011, 51,000 attic insulations and 41,00 cavity wall insulations were carried out. That is close to total of 100,000. There were not even 11,000 in 2022.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Byrne said that at the start. I am wondering what caused the decrease.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I am telling the Deputy the answer to that question. The decrease was caused by a number of things. At the time, as the Deputy will probably be aware, practically all of the construction sector, or the part of it that did not emigrate, pivoted to retrofits. There was a significant number of players doing retrofits. The home renovation tax incentive scheme was also going on. The nature of the grant changed. The grant amount went down by a small amount but the nature of the grant also changed from a flat-fee grant-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne explain that change to the grants? At a recent meeting of the climate committee, I think Dr. Byrne said there was no significant change in Government policy that would impact attic insulation in that way when his colleague had said there was a change in the grant scheme. Will Dr. Byrne outline what those changes were? He said at that climate committee meeting that there was no change but his colleague contradicted him to say there was. He has now said there were changes. It would be fantastic if we could find out what those changes were.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What were the changes? Was there a reduction?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ah, there was a reduction. All right. Go ahead.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There was a reduction in grant amounts. Rather than just flat-fee grants for attic and cavity wall insulation, the grants were ascribed to different house types. A detached, four-walled house got a slightly larger grant than a semi-detached or terraced house etc. The nature of those changes, combined with the fact that between 2009 and 2011, a significant amount of pent-up demand was satisfied, resulted in a drop-off in the scheme.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Byrne not think the reduction in the size of the grant would have been the cause of the drop-off because people would have had to pay more to get their attics or walls insulated?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Byrne think that was wise?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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To focus on the deep retrofits, anyone who had the money could go ahead. Was it wise to alter the grants, given that the take-up was massive across the length and breadth of the State? Was it wise to adjust the grants in such a way that it meant people had less grant support for attic and wall insulation? Was that not a retrograde step?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As the head of retrofitting, surely Dr. Byrne can comment. If there is a grant reduction, it makes it more expensive for people to get cavity wall insulation. That is a retrograde step.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why not?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In his position, would Dr. Byrne consider the reduction of a grant that results in more expensive cavity wall insulation for ordinary people a retrograde step? Would it discourage people to have their attics or walls insulated because they are getting less money towards those works?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are not really going to get an answer. I have one very quick question. Was retrofitting work allowable during the Covid restrictions?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Where did the backlog come from?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did people cancel orders?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There were guidelines. The SEAI was allowed to carry out retrofits during Covid restrictions, was it not?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If you give me straight answers.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was retrofitting work allowed? It was.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
-----over the period of Covid. When the wider construction sector was closed, we were closed amid them doing retrofit. When the construction sector opened up, it did so in a variable way. There is a world of difference between building a brand-new house on a brownfield or greenfield estate and going into people's homes, particularly vulnerable people's homes. Even when the construction sector allowed it, a lot of those vulnerable people deferred it and did not want to have people retrofitting their homes during Covid.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the SEAI have a list drafted of people who cancelled their orders?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy will have a second round.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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My apologies for not being at the earlier presentation; I had a question in the Dáil.
On the retrofitting of houses, where someone who is in a semi-detached house has applied, is any mechanism in place - it is easy to do two houses together, especially semi-detached - whereby there is engagement with the adjoining property owner?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We have seen some of that but it is really down to the homeowner and his or her contractor. What typically happens is, and we have seen it in some estates where contractors have been doing work, they will go around areas in the evening to say they are here now and doing this kind of work. That type of situation typically happens for the simpler individual measures. The deeper retrofit is somewhat analogous to doing, say, a full extension on your home. You plan and programme it in and get the various tests done. The situation the Deputy referenced is typically where there are things like attic or wall insulation, or cavity pumping, and that is-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about, for instance, a particular area in Cork where houses were built with cavity blocks, not cavity walls, so it is not an ideal situation. I have seen houses where the outside layer has been put in place and homeowners have got full SEAI grants but I was intrigued that there was no engagement with the adjoining property owner. It would have been easier to do two houses together rather than doing one on its own. Can a mechanism like that be established?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The answer is "Yes". It can, of course. We are trying to encourage our contractors to do that. Many of them would do that. They will say they are in the area. When you go to housing, and I have done the same, you will see it is rarely just one home done. You will see one and then another few up the way because there is a contagion effect. That kind of engagement typically happens between the contractor and the homeowner. We can certainly-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It would actually work out cheaper for everyone in real terms to do two adjoining houses together. I wonder whether that issue might be considered, especially where external wraparound of houses is occurring. In fairness, the SEAI has been supportive of the type of houses where if the internal work is done, it does not work out perfectly, whereas the wraparound does.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That leads back to Deputy Murphy's point about aggregation. If we know contractors are going into an estate, we could precede it with the idea so that when they turn up they are not just doing one but quite a few. We are looking at how we can improve on that aggregation for contractors. The Deputy is right. The cost of scaffolding one house versus two beside each other is relatively indistinct.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to another issue. The SEAI stated it supported 2,500 businesses in their energy transition. Will Dr. Byrne outline what level of supports the SEAI is talking about? What kind of employee numbers are involved in those companies? Out of the 2,500, are we talking about very small operations or big companies? A figure of 2,500 does not give us an idea of what the SEAI is talking about.
Mr. Declan Meally:
It is a range right across from very small to very large businesses. The range of measures are generally ones where businesses get a voucher for carrying out audits. We also have some that have been supported through grants and some through understanding the much deeper process changes. We work right across the board. I do not have a breakdown of small, medium or large but we can get that to the Deputy a little later. The 2,500 are generally small businesses that are-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Could a lot more be done on that? Many businesses are not aware of what could be done. Could we be more proactive on that? We are talking about a huge use of energy in offices and manufacturing facilities, and trying to improve the use of energy and getting value for money at the same time.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.
Mr. Declan Meally:
We now work very closely with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and the enterprise agencies that were providing a suite of information for all businesses, to actually work through it. We saw the uptake last year jump year-on-year. It was one of the busiest for business under the business programmes. We have increased that again this year. We are looking at going out there to make sure businesses are aware of the offerings. What happened last year was because of the jump in energy prices. It brought energy right up the ranking order of costs for businesses. A lot more have come to us now and we want to make sure the information is signposted. We are doing that through the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, and through hotels, to make sure they are all aware of the supports that are available.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can the SEAI take a more proactive approach on this?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Moving on from private businesses, what about the area of Departments and State enterprises as regards the efficient use of energy? We are doing very little within the public system. It is fine for new buildings but there has been very little movement regarding existing buildings, which are either owned or rented by State companies or Departments.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Leinster House is a typical example of the greatest waste of energy of all time. It is the most inefficient place as regards the use of energy.
Mr. Declan Meally:
Generally, across the board, we are looking at energy use being reduced and the public sector becoming more efficient. It has hit the target. We are continually working with it to improve that and go to the next stage. Again, that is where the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Kelly, talked about the-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Meally believe Departments and State enterprises should be doing more in this area?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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They should not be relying on the SEAI, but do we need to get a message out there in order for that to happen? Taxpayers' money is being spent in meeting the cost of that energy. Are we getting value for money? Could we be doing a lot more in a far faster timescale?
Mr. Declan Meally:
We take a snapshot year-on-year of how the public sector is doing on efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions. That is going in the right direction. We have also worked with the Government and the OPW to get the message out there for this particular winter. We do not have month-on-month figures. It is up to each public sector organisation to do that. We are seeing a good uptake on that and at least 50% efficiency has been achieved over the winter. It is there. It is a process.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If I could give you an example of-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I can give an example of one hotel in respect of energy costs. In 2019, its energy cost was €120,000 and in 2022, it was €460,000. We do not have any breakdown of figures in the public sector as regards how much energy bills increased by.
Therefore, since it is about taxpayers' money, we now need to be far more proactive in dealing with this. I am not sure that we are.
Mr. Declan Meally:
In terms of the public sector, we do not have the bills. That is up to each individual organisation, but we work with a Government mandate, having regard to the opportunity to save at least 15% over this winter. That is what the public sector is doing. We are working with each organisation and the OPW, looking at what each body can do to save-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If the SEAI asked the public sector for feedback on the energy cost increase over the past three years, would it be able to get the figure? Would Departments be able to give it? Is there just some figure buried in the middle of accounts such that there will never be a full assessment of the total increase in costs for, say, 2022?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Again, because each individual organisation is paying different rates, it is for each individual organisation to provide its own information. We collect the energy usage total at the end of the year, not the monthly bills. That is a different ask in terms of the organisation. However, each public sector organisation has a mandate to report its own energy costs.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Does the SEAI think we need to be more proactive in this area? It is a little too late because energy costs have been increasing dramatically. I have not seen anything serious happening in the public sector over the past six months to show a sudden change in approach.
Mr. Declan Meally:
Again, I agree we could all do more right across the public sector and businesses to avail of energy efficiency opportunities. From a public sector point of view, the Government mandate to reduce the temperatures in buildings saw a reduction to 19°C. We have seen a big uptake on that. Each public sector organisation has been mandated to look at its own energy usage. It is certainly part of the Government mandate, and we are helping businesses in this regard. However, I agree there needs to be an increase and that a big step change needs to happen to meet our targets for 2030.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank everyone for coming in. Could they tell me about the better energy warmer homes scheme? Am I correct that a new requirement means an initial assessment must be carried out by the applicant?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I do not think so. What we do is a pre-works business energy rating, BER, on a scheme. If an applicant does not already have a valid BER, we do a pre-works BER. Of the applications from February of last year, which amounted to just over 10,500, somewhere in the region of 7,500 had a pre-works BER. For the remaining 3,000-odd, we do a pre-works BER.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I was told by someone that as soon as the application process opened, he applied in respect of his house, which is an old one. He went through the process in this regard. Initially, he was told he had to have a pre-assessment, which cost €750.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
To clarify, I just gave the Deputy the answer for the warmer homes scheme, which is fully funded. What the Deputy is talking about is the one-stop shop scheme, where one has to have a home energy assessment. That is a full assessment of the home. It has three parts. The first is the pre-works BER, the second is a technical assessment of the home, and the third is a home heat-loss indicator calculation. Effectively, there is a full energy assessment of the entire home from start to finish so one can figure out what works to put in place.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Basically, the applicant pays for the assessment. That assessment is then forwarded to the one-stop shop.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is probably best to read my information into the record because it explains the question I am putting to the team.
I applied for it for my house, which is an old one. I went through the process in this regard. The agent, through the one-stop shop I was working with, told me there was now a condition that it was necessary to have a home energy assessment carried out before making any decisions. It was necessary to pay upfront for that home energy assessment, which I did.
Is it correct that it was necessary to pay upfront?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The email stated, "It was necessary to pay upfront for that home energy assessment." That varies, so it is not necessary.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The applicant added:
Information concerning the cost of carrying out the work came back and the amount of grant aid I would get. I decided to go ahead with the project. The home energy assessment was completed in August 2022. The one-stop shop contractor approved by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, then got each of its agents to come in and do the pricing for this project. In the first week of November 2022 [three months later], I got a price back with the contract start date. Between August and November 2022, the cost had gone up by 33%. The cost to me, as a homeowner, had gone up by 53%. The reality is that the home energy assessment is nothing but a three-card trick. The Government is extorting additional taxation out of people to carry out a home energy assessment which is not worth the paper it is written on. In fact, in my case, and the cases of many others, what it did was to discourage us. People postponed the carrying out of works on their homes, which would have reduced their energy costs last winter, because they went through this farcical process. This is a practical example of what is happening right across the country.
Does Dr. Byrne disagree with that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That email came from former Minister Denis Naughten, who pretty much set up much of what we see today in his role as Minister in his Department, but Dr. Byrne disagrees with him.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Well, Deputy Naughten has explained it very well. As a former Minister, I am sure he was not confused about the fact that he was told it was necessary to pay upfront for the assessment. Is that something Dr. Byrne will look into?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is either necessary or not. I do not see why we have-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who pays for that if the applicant does not?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The home energy assessment is separate from the one-stop shop process in the sense that the applicant is granted aid for it regardless of whether he or she goes ahead with the retrofit. In some cases, where the applicant goes ahead with the retrofit, the cost might be wound into the overall cost. In some cases, where the applicant does not go ahead with the retrofit, he or she pays and gets the grant back separately. The idea is that-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If the applicant did not go ahead with the retrofit, would it be difficult to recover the money for the assessment? How does one do that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, no. Dr. Byrne just said that if an applicant does not go ahead with the works, he or she pays for the assessment. When?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am not trying to be difficult. It is fairly straightforward. Dr. Byrne said paying upfront was not necessary. Is he telling me that he has people who do not go ahead because they cannot afford it once the assessment is carried out, and that they are then asked to pay for the assessment? They do not pay upfront but afterwards when they have decided not to go ahead.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is fine. Is Dr. Byrne concerned about the facts in the email regarding what appears to have been acceptable? Deputy Naughten was going to go ahead with the retrofit. There is construction cost inflation and there is also the cost of living but I am referring to an increase in the cost to the homeowner of 53% in three months, based on SEAI-recommended contractors. Does that concern Dr. Byrne? To me, it sounds like gouging. That may not be the case. Could Dr. Byrne explain it to me?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Well, it is really simple; the increase is 53% in three months. Does that sound like gouging?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What would the rate of construction inflation be?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is nearly four times that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Dr. Byrne agree that it sounds ridiculous?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I did not give Dr. Byrne the specifics; I gave him the percentage. Fifty-three percent is specifically very high if Dr. Byrne is saying the rate of construction inflation is 15%.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What kind of review is carried out by the SEAI on its contractors so it does not appear that they are gouging?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
What we look at are the grant amount, the total project cost and the cost breakdown by BER and home, including in respect of apartments and detached units.
We have the quality business reviews or QBRs. We also sample the market to see what is happening. If we have anecdotal information we have followed up on it before. For example, at a different event-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is not anecdotal. This is fact. This was on the record of the Dáil yesterday. This was presented to the Minister on the floor of the Dáil.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I did not suggest that it was anecdotal. I said, if we have anecdotal information we follow up. I have followed up on a number of companies, for example, when people have an excessive cost. Let me explain what happened in some of those cases. In one particular case the homeowner did not actually understand the difference between-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We better not discuss individual cases. I assume that the question is on the Dáil record and will go back to the Department for an answer. A percentage of 53% needs an answer. I am very concerned that the SEAI budget has been increased by €371 million but that does not appear to serve anybody if this is what is going on.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Whether it is €10 or €100,000, it is 53% of an increase in three months. That is fairly understandable and unacceptable. Does Dr. Byrne agree?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish to state that there was 53% of an increase. It does not matter how much money is involved, if a cost is calculated at 53% then it is outlandish. Is that not correct?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is all. I did not give Dr. Byrne figures. I asked for his assessment of that type of an increase in three months, on an assessment that was carried out at SEAI's behest and under its instruction and paid for upfront yet it turned out that the grant was not a viable proposition after. The SEAI sent in its own contractors who gave him a 53% increase in cost, on the original assessment. So, I rest my case. The problem now is that Dr. Byrne is arguing over nothing and needs to look into this matter.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I suggest that the SEAI conducts a review on what is submitted in terms of required assessments and what they turn out to be, and how many go ahead.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have faith in what I am reading and from where it comes from. If the cost amount is gouging then that fact needs to be asserted.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Time, Deputy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I need to understand the process but I will ask my question and request that we get an answer in writing.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have constituents who have single-glazed wooden windows and went through the whole process of applying for the grant. The homeowners are aged 61 and 65. However, because they insulated their home three years previous they are precluded from accessing the grant. They were told they were precluded at the end stage after two assessors had spent two hours at their home carrying out an assessment. Had the homeowners known that the insulation of the house was going to preclude them from getting the windows retrofitted then they would not have insulated their home. Therefore, I think we need to be much clearer.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To be helpful, can the SEAI answer that question because I have come across such instances?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will have to say now. I have a few of them that I looked up myself.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have sent this particular one in as a query.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the better energy warmer home scheme or the individual grants scheme?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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For the committee's benefit, it is the SEAI grant. I have got more information and sent it to the SEAI.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the situation? I am not trying to be awkward by asking that and simply want to figure this out. Let us say, under the better energy warmer home scheme, somebody gets an attic insulated, which is relatively easy, quick and relatively cheap, and then endeavours to do more work after a couple of years. Am I correct to say that it is only in the last year or so that double-glazed windows have been added to the better energy warmer home scheme?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When these people look for a grant to cover the cost of putting in double-glazed windows in their home they are told they cannot get funding because they have already received a grant. That is the answer that people are given.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The answer is that 20% of the applications are revisits. We opened the programme to revisits last year. The surveyor goes into a home and looks at the specific need. So it is not necessarily the homeowner who picks what he or she wants because the surveyor goes in and looks at the need in the home.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about instances where people have wooden single-glazed white-deal windows, and the bottoms of them are rotten, ripped and torn.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please answer.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are homeowners precluded if they have had work done? We are talking about value for money and it is hugely costly if windows are not done.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is one question, Chair. Dr. Byrne has said that an assessor goes in to assess what is required but that does not make sense.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a rule that homeowners are precluded?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Surely Dr. Byrne is not of the opinion that today single-glazed timber windows are okay?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That is not my opinion at all. I am trying to give the Deputy the facts related to the scheme.
Homeowners are not precluded. Last year, we opened the scheme to revisits. The idea behind revisits was that if you had things measured then we went back and did other things. Typically, a revisit costs more because the so-called shallower measures are done. As to why a home may or may not get windows, I do not have an answer. Specifically, on that question, I can talk to the Chair offline. A surveyor conducts a survey and a statement of needs is prepared, which is put through the process. I can outline that to the Chair.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To be clear, is that under the better energy warmer home scheme, where there is fuel poverty but also under the 80% scheme, which is called the better energy scheme?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Dillon and we will take a break after that.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests. How many one-stop-shops are in place?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many of the 12 registered are national providers?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are the types of one-stop-shop? I mean in terms of the company that delivers each scheme. Please describe a one-stop-shop, including how many employees, how many contractors and the number of houses each is allocated under each scheme.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
They come from two main backgrounds. Some come from a contracting background. So they were originally insulation and retrofit contractors but now have moved up to be a one-stop-shop. Some of them work more towards being project managers so manage a fleet of contractors and deliver on their behalf.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many contractors are allocated to a one-stop-shop?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
That depends because some of them are smaller and some are slightly bigger. KORE Insulation, I believe, has a panel of upwards of 100 contractors who work with them for various measures. So KORE would have panels of contractors who would come in and do different measures. Some contractors specialise in the likes of insulation while others specialise in heat pumps and things like that. So they would bring in the relevant contractors attending on the job. That is the way they do it. Other companies are starting to build all that capacity inhouse.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the SEAI procure the one-stop-shops?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In terms of a geographical spread, how many one-stop-shops provide a service in the Connacht region or in County Mayo?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Eight of them are national but they all provide services in the various regions. I have had a look at the works applications. We have 1,000 works applications in play at the moment. The number one county for works applications is County Donegal, number two is County Cork, number three is County Galway and number four is County Dublin in terms of the spread of contracts. Where they do not have a specific footprint in a county then typically they will work with contractors in that area.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On stages 1 and 2, what is the timeline for attracting more one-stop-shops or contractors to the programme? I ask because there is a pumped up demand for delivery.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We do not have a timeline per se. We are driving as hard as we can to get as many in as quick as possible because, as the Deputy has mentioned, 12 contractors and quite a significant demand. We have been out in the marketplace talking to contract companies, reaching out to them and explaining the situation we have at the moment. Our one-stop-shops are experiencing significant demand. We have very significant grants in play. We have clear long-term Government policy and funding. In terms of any business, we are saying that this is a really good opportunity and we are seeing a reach in from wider parts of the construction sector. Some of the prospective one-stop-shops would come from a different part of the construction sector and they are looking at this option as a business opportunity.
What we are also seeing is an element of what I would call a positive contagion effect. Some companies are getting in, setting up and seeing business happen and other companies are looking at them and saying "we can have some of that kind of action too." We are being quite strict in terms of quality and the ability to scale up and deliver end-to-end processes. Some of the companies themselves, because they are so busy, are probably a little bit slower in getting back on some of the quality management systems and some of the requests we have for them.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the individual grants for the better energy, warmer homes scheme and the solar PV schemes, there is an eight-month period for the completion of works. Why is that eight months? Why is it in place in respect of individuals to get this work done? There is a constraint around labour at the minute.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I guess that was probably a scheme rule put in place in the early days. To a large extent, the vast majority of work is done well ahead of that. Individual grants by and large are dealing with individual measures. They are much quicker and easier to put in. I cannot give the Deputy a specific reason it is not seven or ten months. Eight months is part of the rules of the scheme and that is what it has been for a number of years. We have had no particular issues with that. As the Deputy can imagine, when people are approved for the grant, the vast bulk of them do it within the first couple of weeks, the first month or two, and then it tails off.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is also a 12-month period for the national energy home upgrades and the community energy grant scheme. Is there a reason there is a 12-month completion period for those schemes?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
It would be good financial practice in grants, because we are committing a fund to a person, to have a timeline at the end of it. The difference between those two is that the home energy upgrade involves a full energy package for the home. It takes a bit more work. I would describe it as analogous to doing a full extension on a home. We have changed it slightly on the community grant scheme. That was effectively a year-to-year programme and it changed between 2022 and 2023. When it was closed, we had it as applications in, do the works and close it out all within one calendar year. That effectively amounted to a seven- or eight-month working window for people.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why is there not a similar time period for the warmer homes scheme? The average cycle time at the minute is 26 months.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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You are changing the rules to suit yourselves.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Not specifically, no. I would disagree. On the other schemes, individuals are managing their own journeys so they are involved in getting their own contractor and all the rest and they pay their own way. On the warmer homes scheme, we are procuring the entirety of the scheme from start to finish. We also have no control over the number of applicants for any scheme and in the warmer homes scheme we have seen basically a trebling in the applications from 2021 and 2022.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was there a timeline originally for the time from the start of the application to completion?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are the key performance indicators, KPIs?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I mean the time period for delivery.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the SEAI has to devise some sort of period of time for a completion of an application.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If we take one application from start to finish, what is the period within which the SEAI would like to see an application being completed?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We would like to have it done in the same time, six to eight months. That would be the ideal. That would be what we would like to do, absolutely. We are working in a constrained environment. Prior to 2018 or 2019, the average spend on the scheme was €3,500. This year it is up to €22,000. We also at one point had to go to our colleagues in the Department of Social Protection to get applicants for the scheme.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Again, if you are not tracking it as a KPI-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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----it will still be 26 months next time the SEAI comes before the Committee of Public Accounts.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is something not to be proud of, to say that is coming down by two months and it is still 26 months.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited. I want to move on.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the home chargers for electric vehicles, EVs, what was the expenditure on grant-aided home chargers within the appropriation accounts? Some 8,379 home chargers were grant-aided under the programme in 2021.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many chargers were grant-aided to management companies, multi-unit developments, apartment blocks or their equivalents?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. In 2022, how many to date have been allocated?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many chargers on average would be included within a multi-unit application?
Mr. Declan Meally:
How big is a multi-unit dwelling? What we are allowing through that is the infrastructure to allow them to put in as many chargers as are required for the actual units. They can then go and apply for the €600 per charging point once the infrastructure has gone in. It is quite a complex area in terms of multi-unit dwellings, looking at the management company and putting in the infrastructure to allow them to increase the chargers as they need over time. We are putting in the basic infrastructure and then it is up to the units in general. We could have six-unit chargers or even more depending on the infrastructure.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Meally foresee a ramping up in this area in the coming years?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Big-time; it is a key area. There are people who want to purchase an electric car and that is the key focus. That is a key infrastructure we have been working on with Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, and the Department of Transport. We see it ramping up. We are certainly encouraged by the number of applications coming in and we are approving them quickly and allowing them to get on with the work.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will take a short break for ten minutes. There will be second round of questions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have apologies from Deputy James O'Connor.
Have the witnesses managed to get figures for the deep retrofit waiting time?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. It is hoped we will have him back by the end of the meeting. I ask the witnesses to check with him if he comes back in.
The target for retrofits is 50,000 by 2030. Last week I got an answer to a parliamentary question which outlined that in order to meet that target, we need to do 40,000 each year between 2023 and 2025 and 75,000 each year between 2026 and 2030. That is the answer. That is the position, as I understand it. Is that realistic? It is 500,000 households: 40,000 each year for the next two years and then 75,000 each year after that.
Mr. William Walsh:
From an SEAI perspective, we were designated the national retrofit body in 2021 and we have a target of 500,000 to deliver by 2030. What is required to do that is not being done or attempted anywhere else in the world.
That is what we are undertaking at the moment. I referenced that we had approximately 9,000 B2s last year, which was the target for last year, to ramp up to the 2030 target. This year, we have approximately 14,000. Between now and the last time we were before the committee-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The parliamentary question reply also stated that 8,481 retrofits were completed in 2022. That was in the reply. The target is 40,000 for the next two years and 75,000 from 2025 to 2030.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking if the target is realistic. I am a great supporter of it; it is a great scheme. The three schemes are bringing great improvement, but is the target realistic?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The figure in the reply to the parliamentary question is 8,481.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Those are the B2s in 2022. To put it in context, we are one of the very few countries in the world that declared a climate emergency. They are extremely stretched and ambitious targets. There is no question about that. From earlier comments, one can observe that we are pivoting and growing in the industry to bring us in line with-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We would have to increase that fivefold to even reach the targets for the next two years. For the following years, we would have to increase it nearly tenfold. Multiplied by ten would be 1,000%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The year prior was during Covid-19. We accept the SEAI was constrained trying to get into houses when Covid-19 was rampant.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There is a wider piece, for example, in our solar PV scheme. Last year's performance was bigger and better than the previous four years combined across all measures in the solar PV scheme. People have now tuned into retrofitting and understand that while the climate crisis is one significant crisis, there is also the cost-of-living crisis. People are starting to tune into retrofitting and pivot towards it. We are also seeing that pivot in the construction sector.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are the targets. There is an €8 billion fund. Is there any hope of reaching the 40,000 target this year or 40,000 next year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The total given was 40,000, with 40,000 each year between 2023 and 2025.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will some of those be achieved by the better energy warmer homes scheme?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And also the one item ones?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Yes, exactly. To be clear, on the warmer homes scheme, we are pivoting it to make it a deeper retrofit scheme. In 2018, the average spend was approximately €3,500. Last year, the average spend across all measures within the scheme was approximately €23,000. We are making it into a deeper scheme. By doing deeper measures, it takes longer and the output is a bit lower.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In 2011, 90,000 shallow retrofits were done, which I take to mean they were done under the better energy warmer homes to alleviate fuel poverty. Many of them involved attics and walls being pumped. By 2020, that had fallen to 62,000. In 2022, it was 10,000. I accept the pent-up demand, but an estimate was given some time back of up to 500,000 homes still needing some level of basic retrofit. Has the SEAI shifted its focus away from shallow retrofits, which have been shown to save up to 30% and reduce energy loss by 30% or more? Has the SEAI shifted its focus from that to other schemes, which are more expensive?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Not strictly. The reply the Cathaoirleach referred to is an estimate. Up to 500,000 homes have attic insulation that could do with being topped up, with attic insulation to the lower level. Within the adding insulation situation, the Minister, as part of changes last year, increased grants up to 80% for attics and cavities. There has been a significant increase in that. We have definitely not shifted our focus. The narrative across last year was that if you have not done your cavity or your attic, do it, because it is relatively cheap, significantly grant aided and is quick to do. The issue with attics, which we see in the UK in particular, is that many people do not want the hassle of clearing out the attic and preparing it for insulation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is still a substantial demand for that. We have gone from 90,000 on that scheme down to 10,000 in 2022. That is a significant drop, by any standard. I asked if there was a shift of focus away from those for lower-income households to deep retrofits for €50,000 or €60,000. Retrofits under the better energy warmer homes scheme, for homes in fuel poverty, have been shown, in my understanding, to reduce energy loss by up to 30%. Regarding the spend of that €8 billion, has the SEAI shifted its focus? Dr. Byrne said, not strictly, which indicates to me that there has been a bit of a shift.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do you have a figure for better energy warmer homes?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The applications for better energy warmer homes schemes, which is fully funded, were 9,948, just shy of 10,000. In that scheme, we are pivoting to make it deeper so we can touch a home once. We have also opened the scheme for revisits. People who only had the benefit of the attic or perhaps shallow measures a number of years ago have come in. On the warmer homes scheme, 20% of the applications were revisits.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just before Dr. Byrne came back in, I asked a question about Deputy Munster's question regarding deep retrofits and the waiting time for approval and the process. Was he able to get that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can that be done in the next two weeks, please?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Concerning waiting times for deep retrofits, what is the average waiting time? They are dealt with through the one-stop shops. What is the average waiting time? Will Dr. Byrne provide a figure?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The time period between starting and ending is approximately eight or nine months. I hope to come back to the Cathaoirleach and provide the breakdown. The longest period we have on record between doing the home energy assessment and undertaking works is 242 days while the shortest is 24. I would like to provide the Cathaoirleach with more granular detail relating to individual one-stop shops, if I can.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne come back and tell us how many applications have been approved and are awaiting work?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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About 1,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In March, I think, Dr. Byrne said the waiting time between the application being received and the survey being completed was 17 months.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The warmer homes scheme.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Regarding the warmer homes in the fully-funded scheme, in 2021, the total cycle waiting time from the minute the application was received to completing the works was 27 months. In 2022, that was 26 months. As of the early part of this year, it is 22 months. I caution the last 22-month figure because it is not the full year cycle. It is coming down slightly.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it on a first come, first served basis?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that in all of the schemes?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Byrne come back to Deputy Verona Murphy's question, which I also raised, about cases where works were done and, for example, windows were not available but they are now? Can they can be facilitated under a scheme? Dr. Byrne clarified that is not precluded. Will he come back to us with a note on what is being done in relation to that? If somebody had works carried out under any of the three schemes and further work is required, which was not done at the time for whatever reason, can it be done under any of the three schemes? How does that operate? How do they get that done? There are blocks, which we are hearing about from constituents.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I will give a brief answer and then respond later with more detail. Regarding the fully-funded warmer homes scheme, our surveyor decides what is going to be put into what home. There can sometimes be a gap between what the homeowners expect and what they get from the scheme. I am referring to the fully-funded scheme. On the individual measures scheme, windows and doors are not available. In the one-stop shop scheme, windows and doors are available because they form part of the overall fabric measure. It is up to the homeowner to decide whether to go with these or not. I will respond to the committee with a comprehensive note concerning the fully-funded warmer homes scheme in respect of what might be happening with a revisit and where an expectation gap might arise.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mention was made of contractors. I understand it is difficult to get work done or completed in the construction sector now. This will obviously feed into some of the problems with the retrofitting scheme. Regarding the one-stop shops, which is basically 12 companies, has a significant effort been made to try to get in other contractors? These companies sublet the work. They bring in subcontractors. Has an effort been made, therefore, to increase the number of subcontractors involved?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Absolutely, every one of them has been increasing and scaling up their businesses. We dealt with them in the context of the quarterly business reports. They are all pitching in. All of them have recruited engineers and contractors directly. Equally, they are also widening their scope in terms of dealing with subcontractors.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there monitoring of particular one-stop shops to ensure that a closed-shop-type situation is not arising? The situation I am thinking of is one where, for example, a company might have five or six subcontractors who are generally operating in a particular area and who may be controlling it a bit.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is this something the SEAI will monitor or has it already been keeping an eye on it?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
We do. We interact regularly with the companies. As I said, we have a formal meeting with the one-stop shops. We are also out there in the market because we have our own contact centre, to which Mr. Walsh alluded. It got 280,000 calls last year, so we get a significant amount of intelligence coming directly from homeowners to us and we follow up on that and see what is happening.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the work carried out by contractors, who inspects it when it is finished? I refer to the context of the one-stop shop.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is this with every job or is it selected ones?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
It is a selected number. We have a very targeted risk-based approach concerning inspections. For example, when we get new contractors in, they would typically have a higher level of inspections. Where we have found issues with existing contractors, they earn themselves penalty points, which will bring them into the target regime for additional inspections. On the fully-funded scheme, we inspect every home, to the best of my knowledge, and then on the individual measures scheme, we again risk-base the contractors, look at their performance and then relate that to the inspection level.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With the deep retrofitting scheme, it is 100%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is an energy rating check done afterwards?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Byrne. Deputy McAuliffe has just joined us online. He has ten minutes.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that the conversation has been all about the operational issues, rather than the accounts before us. It shows, therefore, the strength of demand and the level of complexity in this area. I must acknowledge there are so many different schemes available to so many different people in different circumstances that it is inevitable we will have many of these clarification questions. I have always found the SEAI to be very helpful and on hand to help me answer them.
I wish to point out one policy area where public spending might be directed. This is the issue of homeowners who are not covered by many of the current schemes for 100% of the practical costs. For people who are council tenants and those receiving social welfare or fuel allowance payments, a wide range of measures are available to help them switch away from carbon options towards homes that are better insulated and use non-carbon solutions. Extensive grants are also available for what is a very expensive product, deep retrofitting. My concern is for those people who this week and next week will see their gas boilers coming to an end. They might really want to change to a non-carbon option, but without spending a significant amount of money, there does not seem to be an option available to them, or certainly, there is not an option that does not require a significant amount of finance. Do the witnesses from the SEAI accept this is a gap in the agency's current offering?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I might take the first part of the Deputy's question and then pass some of the other elements to my colleagues in research. To be clear, in the context of the Deputy mentioning eligibility for the warmer homes scheme, for the fully-funded scheme, a wide range of social welfare payments will qualify people, including those receiving the fuel allowance. This captures some of the people the Deputy mentioned, and includes those receiving the one-parent family payment, the domiciliary care allowance, jobseeker's with children under seven receiving payments and those on the carers allowance. The substantive point, though, is the gap when people have a carbon-based, gas or oil boiler that is coming to the end of its life. What is available on the menu at the moment in this case is a heat pump replacement. There is a gap in this regard, because one of the critical criteria in respect of heat pump installation is ensuring that the envelope of a home is appropriately insulated.
I think the Deputy will appreciate that we are on this journey. I say this because we will be talking about different technologies in 2030, and beyond that, than we are in 2023. We are, though, examining widening the menu for all intents and purposes in respect of what we can do concerning decarbonising heat technologies. I refer to electrical methods, for example. We looked at a product recently involving heat pumps on a hot water tank. We are also looking at electrical radiators in various rooms, and things like this. I will ask Ms McCarthy to talk about the wider question asked.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
On the heat pumps, we have some research ongoing concerning the heat loss indicator, which is the level of requirement to be eligible for the heat pump grant. I can speak to this aspect as well, if the Deputy wishes. We spoke earlier about the potential of district heating and where this will play out nationally. It will be a very affordable option. It is a similar replacement to a gas or oil boiler. The heat exchanger is about the same size and the same cost-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. I am just talking about people who this week and next week will have to replace their boilers. It would appear they have two options. They will either have to spend up to €2,500 to get a new gas boiler or they will have to come up with a significant amount of money, and in some cases this could be €10,000 to €15,000, to go for the retrofitting option. There is nothing in between. Does the SEAI accept this is a significant gap and that it represents a significant difference in terms of expense for people who want to make this type of change?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I will take this question. The Deputy is making a valid point, but in respect of the specific heat pump grant, we have grant-aided it to the tune of €6,500 for the unit and another €2,000 for the associated pipe. If this is done as part of a wider one-stop shop package, there is an additional €2,000. Potentially, then, there is €10,500 in grants available for the heat pump installation. The point the Deputy is making, however, leans into the energy performance and buildings directive, where we are talking about a renovation passport, in respect of getting people on the pathway towards achieving a B2 rating. Regarding the scenario outlined, were somebody's boiler to go wallop tomorrow morning, then there is a technology gap. Unless their home is appropriately insulated, I do not think a heat pump would be the appropriate technology to put in, in terms of the bills. We would need to ensure this ancillary work is undertaken in this context. This is why we are focusing so much on the fabric side of things, while encouraging the installation of heat pumps.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We always talk about middle Ireland, the squeezed middle, etc. It is very difficult for people who are out there working and who do not qualify for fuel allowance. They have a little bit more disposable income, but not much. They would have nowhere near the requirement to try to have a deep retrofit undertaken. There is just no option for them in this regard. We are trying to encourage people in this regard, but I think Dr. Byrne is saying there is a technology gap here. There is also a financial support gap. Would Dr. Byrne accept this?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We have done extensive work with the local authority in our area. The pilot scheme in Fingal was mentioned earlier. A contractor comes into a cul-de-sac and everybody who is eligible and is a council tenant will be converted. Other people in that same cul-de-sac who would love to be able to do the same conversion, and who could perhaps contribute a small amount towards it, just have no hope of being able to reach across the gap in funding.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
In that context, one of the measures in the climate action plan is the development of lower-cost finance to try to bridge this gap.
There is available finance on the market, such as green loans and other loans, from credit unions and An Post. In fairness to the financial institutions, they have pivoted to retrofit in a significant way.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Byrne accept that sometimes, between childcare costs and all the other issues involved, there is not that much of a difference in terms of disposable income? Despite that, we are asking one sector to either take on a significant level of borrowing or seek to make savings in order to try and reach the same climate target. We are not doing enough for that group of people.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps it is a matter for my Government colleagues in Cabinet. There is talk of conversion of gas boilers to low-carbon and no-carbon options. There seems to be a reluctance to lean into that as an interim measure for the group I am talking about. Why is that the case?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about non-carbon oils, for example. The conversion of gas boilers to non-carbon oils.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
We conducted and published the national heat study, which looked at the best routes and scenarios to achieve net zero for the heat sector by 2050, last February. That pointed to heat pumps and district heating working hand in glove. District heating is applicable in more urban areas and towns, and heat pumps and installations in other areas.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Given the conversation we have just had about the huge gap both in technology and costs, does Ms McCarthy accept that converting boilers to use non-carbon oils could happen this year, next year and the year after? The measure she is talking about are at least five or ten years away.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
The heat study looked at the community emissions. Waiting a number of years, remaining on gas and then getting to heat pumps and district heating would still allow for a lower level of community emissions by 2050. Technologies evolve on an almost yearly basis. Heat pump technology has improved significantly. As the technologies evolve, it may alter some of the trajectories. At the moment, however, it is certainly pointing to heat pumps and district heating as the most effective way to realise our objectives.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the SEAI's view that non-carbon oil conversions are not a medium- or long-term priority?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Many people will wonder why that is the case given that it is an non-carbon option.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Sometimes perfection is the enemy of the good.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In the scenario where people replace their gas boilers next week, is Ms McCarthy saying that they should not be carrying the carbon guilt because it is better for them to wait until the support and technology are in place?
Ms Margie McCarthy:
On the gas boiler side, we have seen effective programmes with our Nordic and Scandinavian neighbours who have had district heating in place for some time. We could consider that here. We are not yet at that point. However, there are things like rental schemes for gas boilers that can be put in on an interim basis while someone is waiting for district heating to be implemented in their area, if it is a designated district heating zone. All of those things should come into play. It is not for people whose gas boilers go tomorrow, but-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of people are being left out of the just transition.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to clarify a point on the gas boilers. The Deputy outlined a situation whereby somebody's gas boiler breaks down or reaches the end of its life-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As I understand it, the CO2 emissions from a gas boiler to heat a house are less than 50% of solid fuels. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I think 50% or less was the figure I heard before.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, or a bit less. Is there any way that a gas boiler can be upgraded? Can better technology, for example, a new condenser boiler, be installed using an SEAI grant?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The short answer is not particularly. Many years ago, we had a boiler upgrade scheme if someone wanted to install a more efficient boiler. As my colleague has outlined, however, in reference to the heat study and the trajectory involved, we want to aim for decarbonisation as quickly as possible.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I was wondering about the figure for emissions. One of the witnesses might recall the figure before the end of the meeting.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise that I was not here earlier. I was launching a report with another committee.
On the warmer homes scheme, a number of previous speakers may have referred to the backlog. What is the current backlog?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When would the applications have been received?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The applications would have come in all through in 2022 and to date in 2023. In 2022, we had just shy of 10,000 applications. We are processing those at present. I will get the exact figure, but the number of applications for the warmer homes scheme this year was 2,506 as of last week.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Going by last year, there were approximately 10,000 applications.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many houses were retrofitted under the scheme last year?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We can see a bit of a problem there, can we not?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Yes. However, I want to give the Deputy some context. We referred earlier to the fact that number of applications for the scheme in 2021 was 2,931. The applications for 2022 were 9,000. Using round numbers, that is just shy of 3,000 in 2021 and 10,000 in 2022. That was also the year we reference as being marked by supply chain demands, the end of Covid, the inflation crisis and things like that. There was also a real restriction in respect of the number of contractors. Our relative output went from 2,400 up to just shy of 4,500. We nearly doubled the output.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In 2021, we were completing fewer retrofits than were applied for, and that is even though there was a very low number.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
It might be worth rewinding the tape a little. In 2017 and 2018, we had no waiting lists and were looking for applicants. What happened with Covid was that applications were coming all the way through. Broadly speaking, for the guts of one and a half to two years we were restricted from going into homes. The applications were mounting up while we were restricted during the Covid backlog. The early part of 2022 was very much related to the Covid backlog.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my understanding of the Covid restrictions. The Covid restrictions permitted construction activity.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I understood it to mean that this scheme would have been eligible. Is Dr. Byrne suggesting that no warmer homes scheme work was done during those 18 months?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How could some be done?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
Some was done, but there was a restriction on that. It would be inappropriate and unfair to lump the warmer homes scheme in with wider construction. As I said earlier, there is a significant difference between being out constructing on a building site or a factory or wherever and going into the homes of vulnerable people. That is what would be happening in the warmer homes scheme. It certainly impacted significantly. It is not that no work was done. In 2022, our property upgrades were 2,398. We completed a significant number. Even though the Covid restrictions ended around this time last year, there was still reluctance on the part of quite a number of homeowners to allow people into their homes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Byrne gave a couple of different answers there. Does he accept that it was not the Covid restrictions that prevented work from taking place?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
They were tied into it. I cannot specifically say anything about a given home on a given day. They are absolutely tied into it. We are talking about a cohort of extremely vulnerable householders and going into the homes they live in.
It is completely different from building a brand-new house in a big open field where people are working. I do not have the dates to hand, but there was formal opening and closing and various restrictions in place in the construction sector over 2020 and 2021. All Covid restrictions came-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is important because it has been set down as a key objective for Dr. Byrne's organisation. We have a large backlog and we have not been meeting the demand, and Dr. Byrne's rationale for that is Covid.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How big of an element is it, as a percentage?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
-----the applications for the scheme went from just shy of 3,000 in 2021 to 10,000 in 2022. We had a threefold increase in applications in a year. We more or less doubled our output on the scheme from 2,400 to 4,500, so we still have more applications than output. What we have done is pushed the current contractors to deliver more. We had an inflation crisis, so we responded quickly to that and put inflationary increases to the contractors. We have also changed our payment arrangements and increased the allocations to contractors to allow them to do more homes. We have been responding to it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Dr. Byrne is right that applications trebled and output doubled, but in both instances there were more applications than completions. I am trying to ascertain whether the difficulty was that the contractors were not doing enough, that we did not have enough of them or that it was Covid. Dr. Byrne front-loaded Covid as his explanation when I first asked the question. I want to get a better sense of where precisely the delays Covid resulted in came from. Dr. Byrne is saying that he accepts it was not entirely down to the restrictions put in place by the Government.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We were talking about vulnerable-----
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
The Deputy might let me complete the answer to the first question. The warmer homes scheme is on a procured panel. It was procured under the 2016 procurement regulations, and we have 33 contractors on the panel. We are working to that frame, so we do not have the ability to add more contractors to the panel when we wish. We must instead get more from the existing panel of contractors and we have done so.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there no capacity to add contractors?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
In a closed procurement framework there is no capacity to add, so what they do typically is bring in more subcontractors. We have come to the end of this particular framework and we are going out to tender again on a wider framework. We have issued a prior information notice on that and we are trying to build up the contractor panel.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will this tender allow new applicants to come in over the scheme's lifetime?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It sounds to me like the same mistakes are going to be repeated.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to Covid. Let us say an individual or household applied for the grant and that was approved. During the period of Covid, what would have been the general reason the work was not completed under the scheme?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know that, but Dr. Byrne cited Covid as the reason. I am asking in what way Covid played a part. Was it that individuals were contacting the SEAI and saying they did not want the work carried out? Was it that contractors were refusing to carry out the work? Was it a direction by the SEAI that the work not be carried out?
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
There was no direction from us. It was a combination of all the above. Covid is a reason and not the reason. There is a multitude of reasons and they had interplay at different times, so it would be unfair to characterise it as all happening because of Covid. When works were available to be done during Covid then works were done. Some homeowners felt uncomfortable having works and people in their house at that time and may have deferred them. In other cases contractors-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many cases like that were there? Let us just deal with the specifics. How many deferred?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Halpin, who is online, wants to come in there.
Mr. Tom Halpin:
I thank the Chair. The specifics in respect of Covid, from the first imposition of restrictions in March 2020 on, were in accordance with the guidance agreed with our parent Department and other Departments. The scheme was actually shut down. There were no retrofit works permitted whatsoever. That was the guidance to all contractors. Our contractors, under the procured scheme Dr. Byrne referred to, were not providing any allocations for a period of several months from March 2020 and then for the subsequent second and third lockdowns. Again in agreement with our parent Department, even when the restrictions on construction were lifted, it was agreed not to restart works under the schemes because of the particular vulnerability where cocooning was still the public recommendation and the vast majority of homeowners in the warmer homes scheme are vulnerable due to age, infirmity or other underlying conditions. Specifically during the periods of 2020, 2021 and into 2022 there were periods where no operations were permitted, no houses being allocated and no works being delivered. I suspect that amounts to circa 12 or 14 months of no operation.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Halpin is saying that for 12 to 14 months this scheme was suspended.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For 12 to 14 months, work was not being done under this scheme.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is even though Government restrictions at the time permitted this work to continue.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For 12 to 14 months.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was happening to all the workers during those periods of time? Were they furloughed?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did SEAI make any payments during those 14 months?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I mean in respect of periods where the contractors were not doing any work.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There was no mechanism there. I will come in again later.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When did the SEAI move into its new office?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Given where we are today and what the SEAI does, have our guests considered the current energy costs that emanate from the new building?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will Ms O'Brien elaborate a little on what they were?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What does that equate to in money?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What measures has the authority taken to see that amount reduced?
Ms Marion O'Brien:
Over the past number of months, we have reduced the heating in the building down to 19°C. We also ensured that lights are turned off. We have reduced the time when automatic lights come on. We have a green team that is looking at initiatives within the business.
Certainly in any areas that are not being occupied at a given time we have reduced energy costs.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Were these measures only taken because the energy bill went up?
Ms Marion O'Brien:
No, we are in a building that has an energy management system in place, which we are operating and monitoring. It is an A3 building but clearly because we are involved in energy efficiency, we are always trying to improve. We are going to go for ISO 50001 so it is about continuous improvements in usage.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Given the size of the building and the number of staff it accommodates, is it energy efficient?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am interested in the question of size and perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can help here. If we are looking at the energy efficiency of buildings in the public realm, how does the SEAI premises compare with other Departments that are not as aware of the issue of energy efficiency?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How does the SEAI fare relative to other Departments? I would expect it to be at the top of the scale.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did the move to the current office increase the energy consumption of the SEAI?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that the building is more efficient but I want to know, in writing, what the 446.7 kW cost and what the remedies to reduce the bill cost. What was the cost of the measures that the SEAI took to ensure that by this time next year we will see a vast reduction in the cost of the energy for the SEAI building?
When it comes to overall efficiency, is Mr. Meally happy with how Government bodies, buildings and Departments are performing?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am talking about buildings specifically; I am not talking about cars or fleets.
Mr. Declan Meally:
We need to continue improving. We hit the targets for 2020 but if we are to achieve the targets for 2025 and 2030 we will have to take significant steps to improve buildings, particularly heating and decarbonising those buildings. Significant steps will have to be taken across the public sector.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Meally said earlier that there are significant challenges going forward. Are our targets low? We met them in 2020 but were they revised at any stage?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, were the targets that we met revised downwards so that we would meet them?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Going forward it will be a challenge to meet them. Is that correct?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We could take the view that if it is a challenge for the SEAI, it is an even more of a challenge for the constituent or private citizen to meet the requirements.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Departments might find that the changes are affordable but the individual is under more pressure. We have to be careful about how much pressure we put on people, particularly when we tell them to reduce their heating usage. Many of the constituents we are talking about have colder blood levels because they are older. They are in their seventies and eighties, are sitting at home and 19oC would not help the cause. We have to come up with faster methods of retrofitting their homes if at all possible.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In respect of the Covid issue, it would be very useful if the SEAI could provide the committee with a full breakdown of the delays that were attributed to Covid and the various reasons for same.
On electric vehicles, the SEAI told us last year it believed there was a demand for at least 50,000 EVs. How many were actually sold?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question I asked. I asked how many EVs were sold last year.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so if that is 50% then approximately 20,000 EVs were sold in total last year.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Either figure is a fair stretch from the 50,000 that the SEAI estimated there was a demand for last year. Is that correct?
Mr. William Walsh:
I might just touch off that. We grant-aided every EV that we could last year. There was a significant supply chain issue in terms of getting cars into the country. Had there been a free, uninhibited market and no international supply chain issues, the numbers would have been far higher. We made that point last year in relation to the demand.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What will it be this year?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The target for 2025 was 175,000 EVs. Is that achievable?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Yes. On the basis that we are at 77,000 at the moment, we are on target. We have seen a doubling of the number of EVs going on the road each year. We believe that is achievable in terms of the step change point in 2025. We have the remainder of 2023, 2024 and up to the end of 2025 to reach the target.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Last year the figure the SEAI gave us for EVs on the road was 55,000. This year there are 77,000 so that would fit in with the 20,000 figure. We are talking about a target date of 2025 but we are one quarter of the way through 2023 at this stage. It would require a sea change which we were told over the past two years was coming next year. Do we have any evidence to suggest it is actually coming this year?
Mr. Declan Meally:
Again we are seeing a year-on-year doubling in terms of the number of cars on the road and the number of EVs. It is tracking to what we saw as the trajectory we would be on at this point, at the end of 2022 or the beginning of 2023. It is based on the forecasts that we are receiving from the market. We are seeing that cars are decreasing in price and there is a lot more availability in terms of offerings of different types of cars with different ranges, battery ranges and so on. We are seeing a much more increased uptake across that and an all-of-government approach-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What number of EVs do we expect to be sold this year?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is still less than the 50,000 that we expected last year.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The numbers are accumulating every year. Are we assuming that all of the 77,000 cars that are on the road now will still be on the road in 2025, that none of them will be written off or taken off the road for whatever reason? What percentage of those 77,000, some of which are several years old, does the SEAI expect to still be on the road in 2025?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the average life.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That would say some will last up to 15 years, but others might last for only five years.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In any given year, regardless of the model - electric or internal combustion engine - whatever number of cars are sold, a certain percentage of them will still not be on the road five years later for a myriad of different reasons. Has Mr. Meally factored in how many of those will be taken off the road and impact on the target figure of 175,000?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there not also a question in terms of the long-term viability of electric cars? We do not yet know precisely what the real life terms will be, in particular for batteries.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask just one final question. The 2030 target was originally 1 million. Many people were sceptical about it. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, said he thought it would be a lesser number in the updated plan but it had not been finalised. In the end, the big change that was made was that the word "almost" was inserted prior to 1 million. Was the SEAI consulted in respect of what the target figure should be? Does Mr. Meally have a view on what figure will actually be reached now by 2030?
Mr. Declan Meally:
I can bring in my colleague from the Department of Transport. We are consulted continually. The target number has not changed. The press has reported 1 million cars but when it is added up it is 845,000 private cars and others in terms of EVs. We still believe we are on track in terms of the 2025 point and moving on from that. My colleague might like to talk about the wider policy and the number.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department concerned about the trajectory of the numbers so far?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The numbers are nowhere close to where the Department thought it would be.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
It was always going to be starting from a low base. Two or three years ago there were about 20,000 vehicles in the fleet and three years later we are up to 77,000, so it was always going to be starting slow and increasing as a fleet share. Last year, about 23% of vehicles sold in Ireland were sold with a plug.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many of them were hybrid?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the percentage in terms of battery-only?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was the percentage of the total sales of electric-only vehicles?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I will come back in again if there is enough time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will continue in that vein in regard to EVs. It was 1 million and now it is 840,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. O'Grady should let me ask the question. The target is 845,000 cars by 2030. Is that okay?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about private cars. Is Dr. O'Grady including hybrids in that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to get into it here but some of them give lower mileage per litre than a comparable car with an internal combustion engine. I am very familiar with one where the fuel use is higher in the hybrid because it requires a bigger engine, and a bigger suspension and it is a heavier car.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And there is a big battery and a motor. The figures will include both. We have 77,000 at the moment. Is that 77,000 plug-ins or is it a mixture?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am very puzzled about the graph and where this is going. It is 77,000 now. What figure do we hope to be at in 2025?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So we have 100,000 to make up in two years. That would mean multiples of the current figures. At the present rate, at best, we are looking at approximately 40,000 of an increase, which would leave us 60,000 short for 2025.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
In terms of where we are at the moment, last year there were in or around 23,000 vehicles sold with a plug, so they are included in our targets. Some 40% to 50% were grant-aided by the SEAI. All plug-in hybrids are not now eligible for SEAI grants. Any battery electric vehicle that costs more than €60,000 is not eligible for a Government grant. The previous year it was about 15,000 or 16,000, so already between 2021 and 2022 we saw an increase of about 8,000 additional electric vehicles in the fleet. We would anticipate it growing again in 2023, supply chain allowing, and again in 2024 and 2025.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Dr. O'Grady still satisfied we will reach the target of 850,000 private cars by 2030?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand there is no control over that. I want to ask Dr. O'Grady about the vehicles purchased last year. There was no cap, or a very high cap. Dr. O'Grady explained last year that it was being reduced to €60,000. Is there a need to go further than that? The figures I have for last year indicate that grants were given for 1,467 BMWs, 44 Jaguars, 439 Mercedes-Benz and 315 Land Rover vehicles. Is there a need to bring down the threshold below €60,000? I understand that EVs are more expensive, but some of those vehicles could be 3 tonnes to 4 tonnes in weight.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Let us compare that to a modest-size private car which is perhaps 1 tonne to 1.5 tonnes in weight.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
The plug-in hybrids are not granted any more. They are some of the larger, heavier vehicles. What happened is that we phased out the grant in July 2021 but, again, because of supply chain issues some people had made an application in advance, which we honoured. Some of those vehicles took a further nine months to come to market.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are Jaguars and BMWs getting grants this year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a need to bring down that by €10,000? One can still buy a very large EV for €40,000 or €45,000.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
We can now because some lower priced cars are coming onto the market. We are looking at a grant review at the moment. One of the challenges we have is that last year was the first year in the history of EVs that EV prices increased, on average. A lot of EVs that were on sale in 2021 and 2022 for perhaps €40,000 increased last year and went above €50,000. We are now beginning to see some lower cost EVs coming to the Irish market, mainly from Far East and Asian manufacturers. Once we have enough of a supply in from there then that is the time to start to reduce the threshold.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it under consideration to reduce the ceiling for the price? At the moment one can buy a vehicle for up to €60,000. We know there is a higher rate of purchase of EVs in areas where there is substantial public transport. I do not want to pick on people in south Dublin, Dún Laoghaire or anywhere like that, but we do know that there are a lot more of them than there are in my neck of the woods.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just a second. We know that from the figures we got last year. The point is that a lot of those big EVs are being purchased by people who have a bus stop not too far from their front door, a tram passing very near to them or cycle lanes. We see a lot of them driving in on such routes in the morning, whereas someone down the country is paying high carbon taxes.
A lot of low-paid workers in particular are stuck with diesel cars and they will be stuck with diesel or petrol cars for a long time to come because of the affordability issue. They are paying the high carbon taxes and they do not have public transport available to them. I understand that we cannot have the same level of public transport everywhere because population density is an issue. A lot of improvements also need to be made to connect up towns and villages. The number of EVs that are being bought and subvented per county is my issue. If Dr. O'Grady does not have that detail with her, could we get a table on that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want Dr. O'Grady to go through 26 counties.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Dr. O'Grady to send that information to the secretariat of the committee within the next week.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
I will not go through all 26 counties but what we have in the table is the number of EVs, as a fleet average, that were sold last year, and then we show where each county is. The counties that have a higher than average number of EVs in their fleets are Kildare, Meath, Dublin, Sligo and Galway. Those are the counties that are buying higher than average ratios of EVs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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People doing short runs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But they are within a half-hour commute of where they are going.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sligo is a big urban area now; it nearly has city status. If research was done on who is buying them, a lot of them will be people who are working in Sligo.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
One of the challenges we have with EVs is that we are trying to get new EVs on the market so we will have a second-hand market in future years. More than half of all new cars are bought in Dublin so if we say that people in Dublin cannot buy EVs that means only 50% of the new car market will be eligible for EVs. If Dublin is taken out of the equation, that makes it difficult when we are trying to grow our share of EVs that can be sold on in two or three years to people who will buy them second hand, and most of the population never buy a new car; rather they buy second-hand cars. We are trying to push the market share of EVs and new vehicle sales so that in two or three years, we will have second-hand EVs for people to buy. Second-hand imports from the UK have plummeted since Brexit and we cannot get them through-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We do not want to go off on a tangent on that point. I understand that but the point I am making is that there is an issue with lower-income households in rural or provincial areas and workers who need a car to get to work. They are caught in a bind and they need to watch where this is going. I accept that there will be more in Dublin because of its population but people in provincial areas will say they do not have public transport available to them.
I want to ask about the grants for home chargers, and the SEAI might take this question. In 2021, there was €69.5 million in expenditure on this scheme. There were 13,432 vehicles purchased but only 8,379 charging points installed. There seems to be a big differential between the number of vehicles bought and the number of home chargers installed.
Mr. Declan Meally:
There are quite a number of reasons for that differential. Some people just decide to use a standard plug and they may not need a charger. In some cases, people may have a charging point at work and they may decide to use public charge points. There is a variance across the board and we have seen that of people looking for a charger, some apply for and some get it as part of a deal that when they get the car they get the charger thrown in. There are quite a number of reasons for the differential, therefore.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Along with the table for the purchase of EVs per county, I ask that we be provided with a breakdown per county of EV charging points. Out of the global amount in the State I would like to know who owns the charging points. I know the ESB installed an initial 1,000 charging points.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many of them did the ESB install?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to have a record of who owns the public charge points that are available at the moment. Are there not other public charge points besides the ESB ones?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would like a breakdown on that, on the number of EVs per county that were grant-aided last year and-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The number of EVs purchased, the number that were grant-aided and the number of charging points per county.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am a bit concerned. I had to step out earlier on and I apologise for that; it would not be normal for me to do that. I am concerned and for the benefit of the committee I need to ask if the Department can provide an explanation of the late filing of accounts and why the errors were not picked up?
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
The late filing of the accounts was down to work pressures. I joined the Department last year when there was a major emergency response issue and it came down to those matters. They should have been filed earlier and in future they will be but there were delays last year and a lot of it was down to that emergency response. I was dealing with the security of oil and things like that a lot last year so it just came down to that.
The accounts were checked in the Department and that was missed. They go through a process where they are summarised and they would have come into the Department having been signed off and approved by the Comptroller and Auditor General so we would not do another audit but we would check them. We are reviewing our processes for that just to make sure that eventualities like this will be picked up in the future.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When Mr. Quinlan says the Department is reviewing its processes, what is in place so that it will not happen again or how did it happen? I know he is saying that it happened and that it was just missed but why was that? What went wrong?
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
One figure was mistaken. A lot of the figures in it were correct so I understand that one figure was mistaken. A lot of the checks we would do involve comparing the grants and funding that came from the Department with what was in the accounts. A lot of that was accurate so it was a place where two figures would be summed. We are going back to those processes and an extra level of checking will be done on those accounts when they come in. In my time in the Department I have not come across another case where this happened, and I have dealt with a lot of annual reports from different bodies, etc.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Quinlan and everyone on the Committee of Public Accounts appreciates that this is an unacceptable amount to go astray or not get appropriate oversight. This week the committee issued a report on the HSE and the purchasing of ventilators. The report states that €30 million of the Exchequer's money went awry. We just cannot have that and that is why I ask that there would be serious oversight on this function and that this should not happen because it undermines public confidence.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that no money was lost. My point is that it undermines public confidence when there is an oversight that does not work. We are not hearing what the new oversight is that will prevent it from happening but I am asking that everybody take it seriously from the point of view of the public's confidence and how we deal with public money.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I know that but the Department accepts that there was an error. It was not picked up.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Several figures were incorrect. That is accepted, is it not?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is my point. I accept that the Department accepts there was an error but it is about how it happened, how it was corrected and how we will prevent it in the future.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to EVs and the fact that I believe the targets are being missed wildly. I mention what Dr. O'Grady said about most people never owning a new car in their lives and the fact that the funding for this is coming from the carbon tax, as the Cathaoirleach said.
That is a big bugbear for many of my constituents who are on low incomes and have no choice but to use their car, and who might have solid fuel or an oil-based fire to heat their home. They are being fleeced. The charges against them are increasing every year and they do not see options to be able to source alternatives. In that context, does anybody here consider it a bit obscene that somebody who is purchasing a car for €50,000 gets a grant funded through those people?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy should bear in mind there is a policy issue. In terms of value for money and the advice the Department is giving Ministers, has this been discussed within the Department? Up to €60,000 can be spent on it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To €60,000.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
To €60,000. It had been unlimited. We brought in a cap of €60,000. That was based on a market analysis of the vehicles that were available, the quantum that was coming into the country and the supports that might be needed to incentivise the purchase of EVs. What we need to do is get EVs on the road. They are more expensive than a typical internal combustion engine, ICE. If we look at the difference between a Volkswagen Golf and an ID3, there is a €7,000 to €9,000 difference between them, and even with the grant, it only goes down to about €7,000. If we do not incentivise those vehicles, people will purchase the ICE equivalent and they will not buy electric. If they do that, we cannot meet our climate action targets.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are not meeting them anyway.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You are trying to, but you are not. We have asked for this comprehensive analysis to be carried out. We have two different sets of targets. One is to reduce car journeys. A second set of targets is in respect of making a shift for those people who have to use their cars to electric vehicles. I contend that both are at cross-purposes because the people who are being subsidised to switch their cars are predominantly people who have public transport options, and the people who are paying for it are those who do not. There is a fundamental problem here. This goes to the heart of value for money because we are crossing over objectives and we are undermining both.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is where the obscenity continues. As I said last year when the SEAI was before us, it is adding insult to injury. The Government is expecting the person who I was dealing with this week, who did not know how they were going to get their car fixed, and who was going to be in huge turmoil if they did not, to be charged every single journey they make, and those Government charges are going to be increased this year. The expectation is that although we are not going to give that person any supports now to make the transition, we have given a guy in Dublin, living across the road from a DART station, a €5,000 grant to buy a brand-new car, and when he is finished with it, the other person might be able to buy it second-hand. That, in a nutshell, is the policy.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why are there no grants for second-hand purchases of EVs? That would actually support those people on lower incomes in some way.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Because the Department is not meeting its targets in this respect.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I will ask the question the SEAI was not able to answer. How many electric vehicles will be purchased this year?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No, Ms O’Grady said the Department is on track to meet its targets.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Assuming that none of the 77,000 cars that are on the road are taken off the road, that will bring us up to about 100,000 electric vehicles.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, it is 107,000, if we want to be very specific about it, and we are assuming on that basis that none of those 77,000 cars are going to be taken off the road for any reason.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They are immune from car crashes and write-offs.
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
It is not to say there will not be any but we would anticipate very few. If a car has been purchased in the last three or four years, as most of our EVs have been, we would anticipate that the majority of them will be taken out to 2025. Some may come off the road but I would imagine it will not be a huge proportion.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department been in contact with electricity suppliers with regard to the cost of energy for people to charge their electric vehicles at public charging points, which in some instances can be as expensive as putting fuel in the car?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What do they say?
Dr. Aoife O'Grady:
They are charging a market rate. Charging for electricity in Ireland is unregulated. The Government does not come in, and we do not have the powers to come in and put a price cap on. It is an unregulated market. Obviously, we would like EV charging to be as cheap, accessible and easy as possible for everyone, but it is a private sector market.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You can control the price of petrol and diesel quite easily, because you are increasing it every chance you get.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question in regard to wind energy and someone from the SEAI might be able to help me. Regarding assistance to wind energy companies, it appears VAT refunds are one of the mechanisms and the other is depreciation write-offs on corporation tax. In terms of the involvement of the SEAI, is that it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to keep the witnesses here all day. I am asking Mr. Walsh about the incentives and the assistance provided by the SEAI. It appears it gives advice and information, and the financial incentives are for VAT refunds and depreciation write-offs in regard to corporation tax. Is that it?
Mr. William Walsh:
No, we are involved in a lot more than that, even on the financial side. It would possibly take a little time to explain. One area in particular is that we are involved in the renewable electricity support scheme, RESS, from a community perspective. We work with communities to get them involved with energy projects. I might allow Dr. Byrne to talk specifically about that.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
I will give the details of the renewable support scheme and then pass on to my colleague. Through the scheme that is in place, we are helping communities to get involved in the renewable energy transformation. We effectively have a package of three measures. We have an enabling grant that allows communities to get off the ground, and that is up to about €180,000, we have put in a panel of trusted advisers who work directly with communities to help them on their journey, and we have built up a package of toolkits that helps them along the way. The package of all of those three together is getting communities involved.
We have had two RESS auctions. In the first RESS auction, we had seven communities through it, of which two are operational, two are on target this year which are 100% community owned, another one which is a joint venture is on target, and two have not progressed. Late last year, we had a second RESS auction. I might pass on to Ms McCarthy, who will talk about the wider wind piece.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
We have a broader part to play in research supports. We have our research development and demonstration, RD&D, programme that runs on an annual basis. A number of the topics are ones that we curate from various Government Departments and State agencies but we would also have an open topic, that is, one that is open to applicants. They can apply for wind energy technologies, looking at removing barriers to deployment and accelerating them, and many have applied and continue to do so. We also have access. The RD&D programme would be about 50% industry and 50% academic awardees. We also provide access to test sites for offshore wind technology.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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For the private corporations.
Ms Margie McCarthy:
That is largely industry access to the Lir tank in UCC, which is small-scale demonstration. Then we have the SmartBay test site in Galway Bay, which is a quieter in-water scenario. We are in the midst of developing, so we have just gone out to tender for the construction and design of the onshore works of the Atlantic marine energy test site, AMETS, which is full force energy off the west coast.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to public buildings, did the SEAI have an involvement in advising the architect and the design team for the National Children's Hospital?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why not on the biggest capital construction project?
Mr. Declan Meally:
It is a new build. In terms of the works and working towards building regulations, the HSE has its own energy advisers. They would look at the overall context of that. We work with the HSE in giving any advice and support that is needed but we do not work directly on the national children's hospital.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We visited the site last year. The frame was constructed and we were able to go up on the roof. We were up there with some of the management team for the project and a representative of the company. I looked all around and on the rows of terraced houses around it, there was a significant number of solar panels. I was surprised at the number of solar panels on terraced houses because they are not the easiest to retrofit. I asked where the solar panels being fitted on the hospital building were going to go and I was told none were being fitted. There are 40 acres of glass in that building, if it was spread out on the ground. I have never seen as much glass in one single building in my life. I do not understand how this has happened and maybe the Department would riddle me this. Why was the project allowed to go ahead without capturing any solar energy? That is what I was told; I do not have any other answer. I asked that question specifically. Is there anyone who can account for that? Can Mr. Quinlan tell me anything about that?
As there is so much glass in the building, one cannot put in cavity insulation too easily. Double glazing is all that can be done. Window cleaners are going to be busy. They had better have big cherry pickers or skyhooks. I cannot see how the building can be insulated properly. Glass is a conductor of heat but it is also a conductor of cold. If you turned off the heater in the car this morning and sat in it for ten minutes, you would quickly figure out how quickly the heat flies out through the glass. Glass is not a good insulator for keeping heat in. I understand people want a big bright building. I am sure the architectural firm and those people who want to show off the building are chuffed. However, there are issues with the practicality of the building. We are going to spend €2 billion and there does not appear to be anyone who can give me an answer. I asked the construction company and representatives of the board that day, and I am asking the witnesses today. How did we get to this point? Many people in the area around the project, including pensioners and people who are working and only bringing home €400 or €500 a week, have put solar panels on their houses with some grant aid. Yet here we have this massive, enormous building and not a sign of a solar panel anywhere on it. Maybe someone got it wrong here because when the reply to my question about the number of solar panels on the building was none, I thought I was hearing things. How did that happen?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Building regulations and energy efficiency are two separate things.
Mr. Barry Quinlan:
The energy efficiency in new builds and the heat pumps that go into new homes come under the building regulations. This new build would have been built under the new building regulations. Under those regulations, the building needs to meet energy efficiency obligations, which would include a suite of things, so I cannot answer on that for this new build project
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who would answer the question?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This would have come before the Cabinet and a Minister would have signed off on it, despite perhaps not getting too much into the technical side of things. I am sure there are officials somewhere and we need to find the officials charged with overseeing this. We are constructing new schools all over the place, which is fantastic. A few more are needed and I think 56 have gone off the list this week, unfortunately. An awful lot of have south facing, flat or single pitch roofs and not a solar panel in sight. That has happened and is still happening. How do we change this? I have been raising this issue for years, and I cannot get to the person or persons responsible who can stop this from happening.
Mr. Declan Meally:
The new buildings are covered by building regulations. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and even the HSE would talk to the committee regarding the energy efficiency elements. If we take schools, for example, they are closed during the summer when there is good solar gain and they are not using the energy. With the Department of Education, we look to see if there is a good reason to invest in renewable technology on particular projects. In some cases the answer is "yes". There is now a programme, because it will help as part of education, through the Department of Education to roll that out.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, the schools do not need energy during the summer but housing estates around them, or the factory nearby, do. For energy being pumped into the grid, it does not matter how far away the source is.
I address this question to Mr. Walsh. Would it be useful if the SEAI had a role in giving advice when we are doing capital projects in terms of saying it would be a good idea to put in a solar panel or to re-orientate the roof of the building in a different direction, so it is south facing? How do we get away from spending billions of euro and not getting energy efficient buildings, or not even thinking of it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be useful for the SEAI to have such a role?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did the SEAI have a role in advising regarding the national children's hospital?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has it changed since then?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just deal with the State buildings.
Dr. Ciaran Byrne:
State buildings, as my colleague, Mr. Quinlan alluded to, will be covered under the various building regulations. Part L deals with energy efficiency. Our retrofit programmes, for example, work to the building regulations of 2011. Post 2011, all new domestic homes have to achieve a certain amount of energy efficiency. Similar building regulations pertain to State and commercial buildings; they have to have a certain amount of energy to be
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be useful for the SEAI to have a role in this, so we can beef it up?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Architects do what architects will do. They want the nice shiny folder with big drawings and pictures of what I would call "wow projects". That is all well and good but the practicalities and the energy efficiency get lost.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure. I know and Dr. Byrne knows they will. Clever engineers and architects will do that. As the body responsible for giving advice, there seems to be a gap in the SEAI's responsibility that I want to highlight. It is something that we might do a recommendation on.
We have concluded the questioning. I want to thank the witnesses and staff of the SEAI, the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Transport for the work involved in preparing for today's meeting. I also want to thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from today's meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings from today's meeting? Agreed. We will suspend until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.