Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The public business before us this afternoon includes the minutes, accounts, financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business.

The minutes of the meeting of 23 February have been circulated. Do any members wish to raise any matter? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

The second item is accounts and financial statements. Six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses between 20 and 24 February. I ask Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to address these before opening matters to the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. 1 relates to the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board for the year of account 2021. It received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw attention to two matters in relation to those accounts. The first is the disclosure of non-effective expenditure totalling €848,000 on a leased unit between 2015 and 2022. The lease was terminated in 2022. The second matter I draw attention to is non-compliance with procurement rules by Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board.

No. 2 relates to the Health Research Board for 2021. It received a qualified audit opinion. In my view, the accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. That is standard for many health bodies at the direction of the Minister for Health.

No. 3 relates to the health repayment scheme special account for 2021. That received a clear audit opinion. Related to that is No. 4, the health repayment scheme donations fund account for 2021, which also received a clear audit opinion. In both of those cases, there were nil transactions in the period of account.

No. 5 relates to the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council for 2021. It received a qualified audit opinion. Like the Health Research Board, the accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff only as they become payable. However, I also drew attention to disclosures in the statement on internal financial control. The first is about the continuation of a potential conflict of roles contracted out to an external service provider and a failure to regularise the procurement of the service of one of the roles. I drew attention to that last year. The matter is still unresolved. Secondly, I draw attention to the failure of the council to carry out a review of the effectiveness of the system of internal financial control in the manner required by the code of practice for the governance of State bodies.

No. 6 relates to the Health Service Executive consolidated patients' private property accounts for 2021. That received a clear audit opinion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question on No. 1, on Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board. There was a non-effective expenditure totalling €848,000 on a leased unit between 2015 and 2022. Did Mr. McCarthy say the lease ended sooner than that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. It was only terminated in 2022. It exited the lease in 2022. It entered into the lease with the intention of providing training facilities in the unit but it was never really used for those purposes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So it was never used?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. It is a matter that I reported on previously, in the 2015 financial statements.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the unit in Naas?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is in Naas, yes, in the Maudlings, I think.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know what purpose it was hired for?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The stated intention was that it was to be fitted out and used for some kind of training but it has never been used for the purpose intended.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The lease has been terminated and no further costs are accruing.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is heading for €1 million. It is substantial.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is right.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That would need to be-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

When I reported on the 2015 financial statements, there were a number of issues of concern in them. This was one. That drew attention to the issue at the start of the process. It was signed up to a lease and I think it availed of a break clause in 2022.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have no knowledge of any other units it is renting which are not in use.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Not that I can recall at the moment.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I have a couple of questions. To go back to that lease, is it just the lease that incurred expenditure, or was it the lease and maintenance?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think there was some fit-out of it. The costs associated with the industrial unit up to 2021 were €763,000. Additional costs incurred in 2022 were €85,000, which included a lease exit fee of €50,000.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It was not maintenance or fit-out really.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not think there was.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It was extracting itself from the lease. On that same item, I do not know if I saw the number for non-compliant procurement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The figure it discloses is €1.235 million, excluding VAT, which has been identified as non-compliant. In the statement on internal control, it gives a breakdown of the nature of that by type.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is considerable.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is higher than much of the non-compliant procurement that we see.

No. 5 is about the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council. The Joint Committee on Health recently had a meeting on the ambulance service and this body came up. I admit to not knowing much about it but there seem to be recurring issues there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have drawn attention to this before. For many years, an individual has been providing secretarial services but that service has not been competitively procured. At the same time, that individual was acting as the chair of the audit committee. That created a conflict of roles. The payments to the chair of the audit committee were considerably in excess of levels that would normally be paid for that kind of function.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I understand that the council is not giving an endpoint for that issue.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

A new chair has been appointed for the audit committee.

The committee was restructured and has broader functions. Another person has been recruited and is providing that service at a considerably lower fee.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has the organisation appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts previously?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not believe so. It is involved in training emergency personnel and overseeing that training.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am aware of what it does. It is just that up until a previous committee session, I was not aware of it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Paramedics and so on, is it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Paramedics, yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It is a remarkable situation. There is a straightforward conflict of interest there.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Certainly, but that has been resolved by the appointment of somebody new to chair the------

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It appears that it went on for several years.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It went on for a number of years, yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements with those extra pieces inserted? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

I will move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the our webpage. The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings. There are two items to be dealt with. Deputy Catherine Murphy cannot be here this afternoon. I know we have put this back. Normally, we put things back for one week and then deal with them but the Deputy asked for my indulgence on this matter and to hold back that piece until next week, if the committee is agreeable. It is No. 1726B, dated 7 February 2023, from Ms Mary Hurley, Secretary General of the Department of Rural and Community Development. We will hold that back until next week.

No. 1755 also relates to Benefacts. It is from Mr. David Moloney, Secretary General, Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, and dated 21 February 2023. It provides further information requested by the committee regarding Benefacts. I propose that we hold back those two correspondence items. They are on the same subject. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will deal with them next week. I will not put them back for three weeks in a row.

No. 1733B is from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Health, dated 9 February 2023, providing information requested by the committee regarding the new national maternity hospital and the spending code. At our meeting last week, we agreed to note and publish this item and to hold it over for consideration this week. I propose that we deal with it now. Does any member wish to address this item?

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this item for discussion, would it be appropriate-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, she is happy for it to be dealt with. I told her the two Benefacts-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Okay. As long as she is happy. In fairness, she is usually present at meetings and we should facilitate her.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. She is happy for the committee to deal with No. 1733. It is just the two items of correspondence relating to Benefacts that she asked to be held over. No. 1733B is from Mr. Robert Watt and relates to the new national maternity hospital and the public spending code. He outlines in the correspondence the external assurance process, EAP, and the status of the national maternity hospital review. Members can see the details. If members wish to raise any matters, they should feel free to do so.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The letter states that an EAP has not been completed and finalised and the Department is not in a position to share the output of that review. I am not sure whether it provides the committee a timeline for when that will be completed and available for review. If it has not been provided, can we request it?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can request it, if agreed by the committee. That is agreed. We will request the timeline. We will note and publish the item of correspondence.

No. R1752 B is from Ms Eeva Leinonen, president of Maynooth University, and dated 20 February 2023. It provides information requested by the committee regarding a construction contract for a student centre. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Members will note that the issue has been raised several times at the committee, including by Deputy Catherine Murphy. The correspondence sets out the current situation. It states that previous correspondence outlined the background to the student levy at Maynooth University, the purpose for which the levy is collected and confirmed that a total of €11 million has been collected since 2015. The section on which I am unclear states: "It is important to reiterate that the income collected through the student levy goes towards repaying the portion of a loan from the European Investment Bank that is being used by MU to finance the provision of new student facilities".

Ms Leinonen emphasises that "neither the student levy income nor the overall quantum of funding available to develop student facilities has been impacted by the decision to terminate the construction contract". The total funding available for the student facility is financed in part by a European Investment Bank, EIB, loan of €34.2 million, of which €7.5 million has been spent. Can Mr. McCarthy shed any light on this? Is there anything happening on the ground for that spending? Has concrete been poured?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is €1.6 million of expenses incurred or likely to have been incurred by the time the university settles with the contractor being written off. I do not know how much work has been done or the nature of it. It is a complicated situation. There are many connected issues between the borrowing, the repayment of the borrowing and the levy imposed on students. It is a matter we are examining in the context of the 2021-22 financial statements, which should be completed soon.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is a matter to which the committee will return. I wish to gather as much information as possible. I have been approached by constituent students and former students on the issue. This is the first time I have seen the extent of the EIB loan of €34.2 million. Has that all been drawn down?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It has. In fact, the drawings from the EIB are significantly more. The letter, however, refers to the amount of it that was drawn specifically for student service-related projects. There was EIB borrowing for other projects as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could we write to the president and ask her to supply us with information in respect of what the €7.5 million has been spent on?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The university may have set that out in the letter in January. There was an earlier letter. I can get the reference number for the Cathaoirleach.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What did the university get-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy has indicated there was correspondence in January that outlines further details.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

According to the letter received in January, the €7.5 million expenditure to date is broken down into €4 million on land for student facilities, €1 million on commuting facilities, including a bus terminus, bus parking and car parking facilities, over €1.4 million on enabling infrastructure and €1.1 million on sports infrastructure.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was a spend of €4 million to acquire land.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There was a spend of €4 million to acquire land for student facilities.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That land is adjacent to the university.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I presume so. I do not have detail beyond that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to get more information on those items. I propose that the committee seek further information regarding the location and amount of land. The letter refers to a bus terminal. That could involve substantial works. I do not wish to pre-judge what will come back.

It may be a bus terminal or something very limited. It may simply be an area where a bus can pull in and a shelter, or it could indicate something more substantial. What were the other items?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was bus terminus, bus parking and car parking facilities and that was €1 million. Enabling infrastructure was over €1.4 million and then sports infrastructure was €1.1 million.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will ask Maynooth University to itemise for us what sports infrastructure it actually got for that and the scale of it, the number of car parking spaces provided and any evidence it has of work carried out on the ground. Is that agreed?

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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On the €1.6 million to be written off with the contractor, could we get some more information on that at some stage? It would seem excessive if it is early design fees or whatever, or was there commencement on site?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think there was commencement on site.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. It would be good to get any more details that are available on that. I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is on the timing of this. I feel like I am always talking about timing. Maynooth University started to levy a fee on students in 2015 and now it is telling us that in June 2023 it will come back with a plan. Is that notwithstanding disruptions?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There has been a levy for many years but I think what the university agreed in 2015 was to increase the levy in respect of the provision of additional facilities.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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All right. Let us say the new rate is in 2015.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, a higher rate.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I assume at that time Maynooth University justified that by saying it was going to do all these amazing things.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. That is why it was drawing funding from the EIB.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Exactly. University management informed us it will come back in June 2023 with a plan for what it is going to do. Is that a problem from a governance point of view?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There are certainly questions to be asked and I do not want to prejudge it until I see what explanations come back, but Maynooth University entered a contract and the contract was under way, but then the university discovered for various reasons that it had to cancel the contract. I think what Maynooth University is talking about producing now is a revised programme that takes account of construction cost inflation, which has been more than was expected when the EIB funding was drawn.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Mr. McCarthy is saying it is not necessarily an issue from an accounting point of view.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

You would never want to see €1.6 million being written off. That is a loss and you do not want to see that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The university management does not actually say it has a plan. It states it will make recommendations to the governing authority on the most appropriate type of student facilities by June 2023.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is not exactly a plan.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, they are only recommendations. We will seek that additional information from the university. We will note and publish that correspondence also. That concludes our consideration of correspondence for this week.

We move to the work programme. Next week we engage with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, on its financial statements for 2021. On 23 March, we will engage with Enterprise Ireland on its financial statements for 2021. Funding for local enterprise offices will be a specific area of interest. On 30 March, we will engage with the Department of Rural and Community Development on the appropriation accounts for 2021 and chapter 6 of the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021, which concerns central Government funding of local authorities. Members will recall we had some big discussions around that here on the funding going from that Department to local authorities. In the past, it would always have been from the Department with responsibility for local government but this is additional to that. On 20 April, we will resume our meeting with the Central Bank, the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners on the insurance compensation fund and the Comptroller and Auditor General’s section 2 report entitled Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer. I do not know whether we have had any indication back from them on whether they can attend. They have not confirmed anything yet. The request has been made.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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There has been no confirmation from the Central Bank.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. I will ask the clerk to the committee to comment in private session later. I cannot do so in public session. At this point, there has been no confirmation. I propose we revisit this before the end of the meeting. Is that agreed?

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is essential that happens. We are being very patient on this matter.

We will engage with An Bord Pleanála on 27 April in relation to its 2021 financial statements. I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General’s special report on the emergency procurement of ventilators by the HSE will be published soon. I propose we add an engagement on this report with the HSE, the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to the work programme. Is that agreed? Agreed. As the report is going to be available soon, we should pencil that meeting in as soon as we can following the meeting with the Central Bank in April.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I expect the report will be published on Tuesday morning.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. There are proposals on a number of other issues and there was a list from last week. We have An Bord Pleanála and the Central Bank. There is the University of Limerick, UL. We must bear in mind we will have compellability on the document, that is, the report from KPMG on the purchase of the Dunnes Stores site. Then there is the children's hospital. Deputy Catherine Murphy has proposed we consider adding the financial statements of the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board to the work programme. We will add those to the list. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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If we are getting to the point where we are putting dates on things, I request the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine be high on the list of bodies to get a firm date. There are a number of issues now and I think it is a year since the Department last appeared before us.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We need to hit the targets. We do not want to give the Department too many issues or the meeting will go on forever.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I have two.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Chair could give me the whole session.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Forestry is one big issue there. I ask that we pencil in UL as soon as possible. We have been waiting over a year for that report. We should try to prioritise that, the Comptroller and Auditor General’s special report and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I hope we can fit them all in.

Does any member wish to raise any other matter?

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It may not be possible for this committee to deal with it, but what of the issue of the cost of drugs and medications in the healthcare sector? There is a question about whether we are getting value for money when there are substantial delays around the drug approval process. I will be open. We were out with AstraZeneca yesterday. It is manufacturing five drugs and only two of them are available.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who is "we"?

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Padraig O'Sullivan and I. It is a committee on rare diseases. We went out there yesterday. We are manufacturing drugs for rare diseases in Ireland, but they are not available here. The issue may not be within the remit of this committee although it is about value for money. There are questions around whether we are getting value for money with respect to what we are paying for drugs and whether we are getting value when there is a delay in making particular drugs available, in the sense that we end up with people in hospital unnecessarily because there is a delay in accessing drugs. For instance, we are taking up to 700 days to get approval of some medication, whereas Denmark, which has the same population as Ireland, is approving new medications within 247 days. It does not make sense that we are the fourth biggest exporter of pharmaceuticals in the word, yet a whole lot of stuff manufactured here is not getting approval.

I wonder whether it is worth looking at it from the point of view of the two items: first, are we getting a fair deal in what we are currently using; and second, is there a better mechanism for making sure we can get value for money and, at the same time, getting new products made available in a timely manner for patients here? I know it is complicated.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The first one goes way back. A lot has been over-spent on it and it is obviously an area that needs to be examined. On the second, I suggest that when we have the Department and the HSE here on the next occasion, we would add that on.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a figure for the overall cost to the public system of the purchase of drugs and medicines, although I cannot recall the exact figure.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is huge money.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I heard it coming in here and we had it at a previous meeting, as I recall. If it is agreeable, we will add them onto the agenda for the next occasion when the HSE is before the committee. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to raise one point. In regard to what happened this morning, and in the context of what happened last week, it seems to me that we were told something last week by a Department official that was patently incorrect, as the witness today told us. We were told by a Department official last week that they had consulted with the State Claims Agency and, this week, we heard that they absolutely were not consulted about that. It seems to me that it was not a kind of “Did you do it?”, and then the person said “Yes”, because we discussed it at length. It was a conversational interaction and it was described to us what happens, that they acquiesced to the idea of a non-disclosure agreement, they acquiesced to the idea that there are two parties in a room, neither of which is the State. I know we are probably going to have those people back in but, in the meantime, is it possible to go back to the Department and ask for clarity in respect of what we were told this morning? We were told one thing last week that seems to be manifestly untrue, and I can only accept from the witnesses this week that when they say they have not been consulted about something, they have not. I do not know what our options are here. I know we have been in this position before.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we examine those options? The Deputy has flagged the issue. While we are normally not in a position to adjudicate on conflicting evidence, if there is a point there, we can determine what is the best way of pursuing it.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The complex operations of the State will lead to grey areas sometimes but “Did you talk to them or did you not talk to them?” is pretty straightforward. I think this is a unique situation where one body is saying it was consulted and one body is saying it was not. Before we bring anybody in, we should get clarity on that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In fairness to the Department representative last week, it was not his specific area and he may have inadvertently given misleading information.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is a good point so we need to give them an opportunity to provide clarity without us sitting here for the next four to six weeks thinking that something incorrect has been said to us.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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My understanding was that the Department confirmed last week that before they settled the issue, they did consult with the State Claims Agency, but they did not clarify what level of consultation took place.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay, but the State Claims Agency said today that there was absolutely no consultation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can write to the Secretary General and ask for clarification on the nature of the consultation that took place.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was it a phone call or was it in writing?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We do not know but let us ask the question. We will ask the question. Is Deputy Hourigan happy enough with that?

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Thank you.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We should look for them to clarify in writing whether their correspondence with the State Claims Agency was about the settlement that was being negotiated with PricewaterhouseCoopers, what was the degree of consultation and were legal advisers brought in from the State Claims Agency to give advice as well.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The €27 million-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not see the €27 million. My understanding from last week was that there was consultation over a final settlement. Maybe I am incorrect on that.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I certainly, personally, need clarity on what has happened.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will ask for that. The Secretary General is the Accounting Officer of the Department. We will request that.

We have concluded our work programme. If there is nothing else under any other business, we will move briefly into private session before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on 9 March.