Mr. Neil McDonnell:

The Deputy has asked if SMEs are going to get involved in the green economy, which is a very important question. I would characterise a lot of SMEs as very similar in financial outlook to a domestic consumer. There was a very good story in the newspapers last year about a Green councillor, I believe she was in Bray, who did a deep retrofit on a house. It cost in the region of €70,000 or €75,000. After a full SEAI grant she was still left with €30,000 odd to pay.

The payback for that person, even with energy bills reduced to zero, and even at current prices, is probably 15 years, so there is a capex issue. This might need some left field thought from the Government. The only debt products that worked well during the pandemic were the likes of the future growth loan scheme. As for the credit guarantee scheme, the shorter dated debt was not very attractive. We think the only way in which businesses will invest significantly in stuff like deep retrofit or a replacement for thermal energy systems is if that capex issue, which we know cannot be made go away, were dealt with on an equity basis, for example, such that the Government invested in low-interest or no-interest loans with long repayment periods, not dissimilar to the way the fair deal scheme works now in providing old people with nursing home care. The capex problem is militating against businesses investing in this.

Deputy Bruton is absolutely right to identify the education issue. EI does some really significant programmes but they are very much targeted. What we are saying, and the reason we have modelled this on the Teagasc green cert, is that there is tax incentivisation. In other words, as the committee has heard from all three bodies today, the commodity that small businesses are shortest of is probably time. They will not make a time commitment unless there is a coupon attached to it. We suggest something to make it worthwhile. We are talking about bridging knowledge gaps that we know exist in employment law, treasury, finance, export familiarisation, digitisation and the green economy. We are committed to getting that, and I think the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is very much committed. Whether the Department of Finance is is a different thing, but we will keep banging the drum.