Mr. Donall O'Keeffe:

On workers' rights, late trading is a demanding working environment.

Our last survey, which was taken just prior to the Covid pandemic although the trend it illustrates in Dublin has been exacerbated since, shows that the percentage of workers on the minimum wage has declined precipitously as we have come nearer to full employment. We pay practically no one the minimum wage any more. We certainly do not pay those working late the minimum wage. While it depends on the costs imposed by the State in respect of late trading, late bar and nightclub permits, I do not imagine we will be paying it in those areas either. A full employment economy simply means we will have to pay more to get workers.

On a second issue regarding workers' rights, the industry should of course uphold employment law. Good employers are doing that. What we are now finding in our sector is that employers are competing for staff on the basis of working conditions. We are now seeing great flexibility in rosters. Most of the time, staff tell us when they will work. They tell us the hours they are going to work and we have to work around that. That is the reality of it.

We tend to attract people who want to work in the sector because of their personalities, their energy levels and their connection to customers. They like bar work. They want to do it. Lots of them develop long careers in the bar sector and we are really glad about that. Commercially, it will be down to us to make it attractive enough to work late at night. Part of the impact on commercial viability will be down to the cost structure imposed on late trading.

The issue of the impact of late trading on public health furthers the argument for the extinguishment requirement. Adding to the number of outlets in city centres, which is where new licences will go in the event of full liberalisation, would not be a welcome development. We do not want a UK pub culture in Dublin or any of our major cities. We do not want the public order issues that go with it. The importance of licensing as a carrot and stick to encourage responsible trading is really important. We have a strong pub culture in this country, which is partly down to the licensing regime and mostly down to the licensees following the law and An Garda Síochána understanding how to enforce it. A threat to the licence is a serious issue and something any responsible publican will take seriously. Deregulation would be a disaster for city centres. We do not believe anybody is calling for more pubs in Dublin city centre.

The last point I will make on trading hours is that we believe the argument for sequential closing is positive. If the Bill goes through as it stands with regard to trading hours, traditional bars will close at 12.30 a.m., late bars will close at 2.30 a.m. and last drinks in nightclubs will be at 5 a.m. The bulk of people will go to traditional bars and, perhaps, late bars and a relatively younger cohort will go to a relatively small number of large venues for nightclubs. There will be a pretty severe onus on nightclub operators under the new licensing system. It will be demanding to get such a licence and it will be expensive as a result of what is required of the operator of the premises. That is correct and proper and we support all of those requirements. While it again depends on the costs, which we have not had sight of, I again suspect that this new system will result in a small number - I cannot put an exact figure on it - of large, dedicated and specialised nightclubs trading four or five nights a week. They will be expert in what they do and will generally be well run. What some people outside the trade fail to understand is that nobody, neither staff member nor customer, wants to be in an environment where people are drunk out of their minds and the place is uncontrolled. Ensuring a controlled, managed and safe environment is paramount if you want to build a long-term business. The late trade and the nightclub industry, if it comes to 5 a.m. trading, will be highly specialised and run by a small number of guys and women who have the capacity to run such businesses. The vast majority of those in the pub trade will not be interested in it or set up for it. It just will not be their business.