Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 24 January 2023
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government
Implementing Housing for All: Discussion (Resumed)
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Good afternoon everybody and welcome to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Today we are reconvening the series of meetings we have been having on implementing Housing for All. We are joined by representatives from Longford County Council and Mayo County Council. They probably know already that we have met the four Dublin local authorities, some of the greater Dublin area councils and the city councils. From Longford County Council I welcome Mr. Paddy Mahon, chief executive, and Mr. John Brannigan, director of service for housing, planning, regeneration and capital projects. We are joined remotely from Mayo County Council by Mr. Kevin Kelly, chief executive, Mr. Tom Gilligan, director of services, and Mr. Simon Shevlin, head of housing. The members have been circulated with the opening statements and briefings in advance and I thank the witnesses for their submissions.
Before we commence, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action in respect of anything they say at the meeting. Witnesses attending remotely are not afforded absolute privilege. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, speakers will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Each committee member will have seven minutes to ask questions and receive answers. For the opening statements, we will hear first from Longford County Council and then Mayo County Council. I invite Mr. Mahon to make an opening statement on behalf of Longford County Council.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I thank the committee for its invitation to attend this afternoon's meeting to discuss the implementation of Housing for All, particularly with regard to Longford. Over the four-year period from 2018 to 2021, Longford County Council delivered 331 homes against a set target of 309 under the Rebuilding Ireland programme. Longford County Council's housing delivery plan for 2022 to 2026 outlines the delivery of 391 new homes over the five-year period. At the end of this year, it is projected that 130 homes will be delivered under the plan. Longford County Council uses a number of delivery schemes, including the direct provision of units through the four-stage and single processes, turnkeys and approved housing bodies.
In the fourth quarter of 2022, Longford County Council appointed a vacant homes officer. The preliminary Central Statistics Office, CSO, report for 2022 shows the level of vacancy in County Longford as 12.1% compared with the national average of 7.8%. This is a reduction from the 15.2% reported in 2016. We also recorded a significant increase in population during that period. This might explain some of the reduction.
We recently began a compulsory purchase order, CPO, process after a number of years of inactivity in that area. We have acquired five properties through CPO. A further six units were brought into use through repair and lease and another three applications are under review. Since 2020, 12 homes have been secured through the buy and renew scheme. We are examining at least nine applications submitted through the Croí Cónaithe scheme. We are seeing a decent level of interest in this scheme in the county. A further promotional campaign to bring vacant properties into reuse is due to commence in the coming weeks.
Homeless presentations have almost doubled since 2020, rising from 78 in 2020 to 151 in 2022. Longford County Council work with Depaul in Longford for adult homeless and Teach Fáilte in Mullingar with regard to homeless women and children. Initial discussions have commenced regarding the provision of sheltered women’s accommodation in Longford.
Part V delivery is not active in Longford at present because it is dependent on the level of construction activity in the private sector. Longford has little or no development at significant scale in the private sector. There are 17 approved planning applications that could potentially deliver 50 Part V homes if they are activated in the coming years. Stimulating this market is a key objective for us and everybody in the county.
Town Centre First and regeneration are also priorities for Longford County Council and have been for a number of years. We hope to appoint a town regeneration officer in the coming months. The housing section works with other areas of the council, including planning, finance, regeneration and active travel, to acquire properties, focus on and lead the regeneration of Longford town and deliver housing generally on brownfield sites in the town centre. Over the past two years, 28 age-friendly type houses were provided in County Longford and 70 local authority homes were adapted for individuals with a disability at a cost of just over €575,000. A total of 443 private houses also received grants during this period.
With regard to climate action, we are involved in the midlands energy retrofit programme and the national energy retrofit programme. In recent years, a total of 78 upgrades have been carried out at a cost of more than €3 million. While all of this is not recouped by the local authority, it has delivered significant energy savings for the occupiers of the houses. We are on site at 32 homes at present.
The key priority for Longford County Council is affordable housing. While the current model does not facilitate the inclusion of County Longford in a scheme, in recent months we have had a number of positive engagements with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We hope to advertise shortly for expressions of interest for a scheme that will work for us in Longford. It is very important to acknowledge the great support we get from the Department and the housing delivery co-ordination office. We got sanction for seven additional staff for the purpose of housing delivery.
It is our ambition to achieve our housing plan. The risk factors with regard to achieving successful implementation are probably similar to those for other local authorities and include construction cost inflation and supply chain issues. With regard to Part 8 approvals, we will have a municipal district meeting tomorrow and it is on the agenda. There are risks associated with it, particularly the lack of affordable housing in our county. Although we face challenges, considerable work is under way to achieve the targets and, indeed, to exceed them to ensure Housing for All is delivered successfully in our county. I thank the committee and we welcome questions.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Mahon and invite Mr. Kelly to make an opening statement on behalf of Mayo County Council.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend today's meeting to discuss the implementation of Housing for All. I apologise that we are not able to join in person due to other activities here today. Mayo County Council is acutely conscious of the importance of housing delivery and is taking a whole-of-organisation approach to it to ensure that all units, including housing, planning, roads and water services, are fully aligned in this endeavour. Mayo County Council completed its development plan review in 2021. This provides for a further 3,252 units to be completed in our towns and rural areas over the next six years. At present, approximately 1,500 housing units are permitted in Mayo that could be acted upon but have not yet been brought forward for development.
Mayo County Council believes it has a track record in supporting and actively delivering housing. In line with its track record on delivery, the council exceeded its overall target under the Rebuilding Ireland programme, despite the impact of Covid-19 on delivery. In the period 2019 to 2021, Mayo County Council assisted 1,425 households through the provision of accommodation, including 215 new builds, 47 acquisitions and 1,163 under the housing assistance payment, HAP, and the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. The housing delivery target assigned to Mayo County Council under Housing for All was 730 for the period 2022 to 2026. It is the ambition of Mayo County Council to deliver 1,004 units over this period. It has successfully delivered its 2022 target of 90 units. Our submission document includes appendices with relevant figures. The delivery of these units will utilise direct build, Part V, approved housing bodies, AHBs, turnkey proposals and all of the schemes available to progress housing delivery.
It is important to highlight that recent years have been extremely challenging, with Covid-19, the war in Ukraine and construction cost inflation. These have caused disruption to the construction sector, impacted on supply chains and produced significant price increases for materials.
The projection of delivery includes 98 units for older persons and 49 units for people with disabilities. The total social housing demand in Mayo is 2,726 households, broken down by 1,203 on the housing waiting list and 1,523 on the housing transfer list. Of those people on the housing lists, approximately 75% require either one or two-bed accommodation.
While there are global challenges in respect of housing delivery, as referenced already, there are also local challenges, which we are working through. The Department approved and funded 11 additional posts for Mayo County Council to assist in the delivery of its housing programme. However, despite the best efforts of our recruitment unit, a number of these posts remain to be filled in a challenging recruitment market at present. The delivery of our housing targets is dependent on the council adding to its land bank and the delivery of 304 units will require additional land. While we have been actively engaged in land acquisition for a period of time, getting suitable land at a reasonable price has proved to be difficult. Having closed the purchase of one piece of land in Castlebar in late 2022, it is hoped that more significant progress can be made on this during 2023.
While Mayo is not one of the counties originally identified under the affordable housing initiative, Mayo County Council undertook specific assessment in respect of Westport, and having made the case to Department it has been approved for an affordable housing scheme. A second scheme is being developed for Westport and studies are under way in respect of Castlebar and Ballina to identify any affordability constraint that might allow those towns to also qualify for affordable housing.
Since March 2022, Mayo County Council has a designated full-time vacant homes officer, VHO, and the duties include the Croí Cónaithe (towns) fund scheme, the repair and leasing scheme and the buy and renew scheme, etc. The VHO follows up on vacant properties brought to our attention through the vacant homes website, vacanthomes.ie, or through direct contact. Mayo County Council is involved with the Department, since November 2022, in a data collection exercise that is being carried out to identify vacant dwellings in towns and villages. Mayo is one of six local authorities involved in this pilot. Mayo County Council has included 1,200 buildings as part of the pilot and approximately 1,100 of these properties have already been surveyed. This builds on the pilot vacant field survey carried out in 2018 and 2019. In addition, Mayo County Council is undertaking a project and collaborating with the Housing Finance Agency and housing solution platform Homebuyer’s Hero to bring vacant homes back into use. The tables included in our submission outline the ongoing work the council is involved in under the various Government schemes.
Our projected delivery for 2022 to 2026 for Part V homes envisages the delivery of 67 homes. Unfortunately, Part V has not been a significant source of delivery of social housing in Mayo, particularly in recent years, notwithstanding the number of extant permissions that could be activated, and there is unfortunately little evidence to suggest any significant change will occur in this regard. However, we continue to engage with developers with a view to activating sites with permission to the greatest extent possible.
Mayo County Council assesses dereliction in accordance with the definition and criteria set out under the Derelict Sites Act 1990. In 2022 a dedicated officer was appointed to pursue greater activity in respect of derelict sites and the derelict sites register, which has extended to 284 sites. We continue to pursue dereliction by way of engagement with owner-occupiers, issue of statutory notices and placement of sites on the register. During 2022, seven derelict sites were removed from the process before they were entered on the register. Some four sites were advanced through compulsory purchase order and are at vesting order stage. We envisage doing further work in this regard in the coming period. We have also established an interdepartmental group involving housing, environment and the municipal districts to deal with the issue of vacancy and dereliction, and will seek to fully utilise additional schemes such as Croí Cónaithe, where there is up to €50,000 available to assist in bringing vacant and derelict properties back into use.
I hope this gives members a brief overview of the quantity, quality and ambition of the work being undertaken by Mayo County Council to deliver under Housing for All. Once again I thank the committee for the invitation and we are happy to answer any questions members may have.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will move to questions from members. I note that we have Oireachtas Members present who are not members of the committee so I ask them to assist me in letting me know who will take the different slots; that would be helpful. I will move to the Fianna Fáil slot and Deputy Flaherty.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses, particularly Mr. Brannigan and Mr. Mahon from Longford County Council. My colleagues on the committee will be delighted to hear that I will not be talking about Longford on my own. I normally have a one-theme subject so I am delighted to have Mr. Brannigan and Mr. Mahon here. When we have the opportunity, I would like to send my best wishes to their colleague, John McKeon, who is recovering from illness. I hear great reports from him so hopefully the next time Mr. Brannigan and Mr. Mahon are back at the committee they will be able to bring Mr. McKeon with them because I know he is a valuable member of the team.
The main thing we wanted to hear from the witnesses was an update on the affordable housing. It is reasonable to assume from what was said that we are finally on the cusp of an affordable housing scheme for Longford. I ask the witnesses to respond to me on that first.
Mr. John Brannigan:
We have had a number of successful engagements with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in recent months and we will have a further engagement on Thursday of this week. We anticipate getting approval for a scheme of ten to 12 affordable units for Longford this year. Our timeline would be to advertise the scheme in the first quarter and, in parallel, to seek expressions of interest from developers that would provide the units so that at the latter end of the year we would be in a position to start the scheme.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is excellent news. I want to drill in on some of the points Mr. Mahon covered in the opening statement. There would be concern about Longford's vacancy rate. It was detailed in the national media and we were at 12% as opposed to the national average of 7.8%. Have any steps been taken thus far to address that?
Mr. John Brannigan:
With our vacant homes officer in place since the last quarter of 2022 there have been a number of engagements with property owners. We have 48 properties on a derelict sites register and we are dealing with the individuals involved. We are getting more active in the areas of derelict sites and compulsory purchase orders in the last-----
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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A big and specific issue for local authority housing is getting those houses back into the housing stock. What steps has Longford County Council taken to address that?
Mr. John Brannigan:
We are aware that we are running around the 6% vacancy rate within our stock. That largely came around due to assisting transfers from one local authority property to another. We introduced a policy to our strategic policy committee such that it would take ten years to be eligible for a transfer unless there were medical grounds. That is starting to have a significant impact. Of the 128 vacant properties, 35 of them have arisen because of transfer requests being approved. Previously that number would have been sitting at 60 or 70 properties.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to getting local authority houses back into stock. I know the framework document for contractors was prescriptive and I understand that Longford County Council was dealing with a limited number of contractors. Has Longford County Council been able to improve on that?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the pipeline. After two years of the Housing for All plan Longford County Council is at 130 units as against the planned 391. If we were to continue at that run rate we would only end up with 325 units as against the planned 390. What plans and steps are in place to ensure we hit the target of 390? Are we looking at an increased run rate of delivery for the final three years of the plan?
Mr. John Brannigan:
Traditionally we have relied heavily on turnkey proposals in Longford. We have secured a number of sites that will go through either a single or four-stage process with the Department to get approval on our schemes. We will get more active on that and hopefully that will deliver better value for money and give us a better benchmark for what we should be paying for the turnkey units.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I see that Longford County Council has been approved for seven additional staff for the housing department. The public will tell us there is a big issue with getting repairs done but notwithstanding the fact that there is an excellent team in place, will Longford County Council be able to supplement the outdoor staff working within housing or where is the breakdown of those seven staff? Where will they go?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
They are primarily for the capital scheme and, as Mr. Brannigan said, for delivering the pipeline that the Deputy mentioned. The team is in place with significant support from central Government to fund those people. It took nine to 12 months to get the full team in place but it is in place now and beginning to deliver.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will they be office-based?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to trying to get repairs done and get houses back where only minimal work has been done, has the council approached the Department in regard to additional outdoor staff for housing?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
We have. Where the vacancies arise, we deal very successfully with sanction requests from the Department. We have always been able to deliver the right business case to allow approvals to be put in place. We built up our team carefully and we use contractors as well. We met recently with the Department and we need to look forward towards a planned maintenance approach to our stock. That will probably help to minimise and reduce the level of vacancy because we will have a more proactive asset management approach to our stock. We have about 2,200 houses in Longford, which is a lot for a small county.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Per head, it is the biggest in the country. In summary, would it be fair to say, first, that we are going to have an affordable housing scheme this year and, second, that we are going to hit that 390 target within five years?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
That is our ambition. We will do everything we can to make sure that happens. As I said, we have had a couple of very positive engagements. We are not over the line yet on affordable housing but, as Mr. Brannigan said, there is another meeting later this week. I would like to think we are there, and that we are looking for expressions of interest from the public for a scheme that we expect will be successful in Longford. We are nearly there.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We move to the Sinn Féin slot. I call Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Hello to everyone in Mayo who is on the screen - to Mr. Gilligan, Mr. Shevlin and Mr. Kelly. I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to ask these questions. I will first ask a number of short questions. In terms of housing demand, given there are 1,203 on the housing waiting list, are those individuals or families? Are they on HAP and RAS, or are HAP and RAS additional to that? Will the witnesses break down that figure for me? I am trying to get the overall demand first.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I will start by asking short questions. I am just trying to capture the demand and whether that includes HAP and RAS.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, HAP and RAS are included in the housing transfer list.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, the full number is 2,726 for County Mayo.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Shevlin confirm the income threshold in Mayo for two adults and two children?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If a couple with two children earn any more than €35,000, they are not included for either affordable housing or social housing.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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However, they are excluded. Any couple with two children above €35,000 in Mayo is excluded. Is that right? That is okay. How many CPOs has Mayo County Council carried out since 2016?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is four or five since 2016. Can the witnesses confirm how many derelict houses there are throughout the county?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of purely derelict buildings in villages, rather than all vacant buildings, is it 9,166?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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There are 284. I am asking because I think there is great potential there, not only potential in terms of housing people who are on the waiting list but also for the revival of towns and small villages. I think our concentration needs to be there over the next 12 months or so.
I also want to ask around local authority houses that are impacted by pyrite, in particular houses that are falling down. What are Mayo County Council’s plans for those, in particular where Mayo County Council tenants are in houses impacted by pyrite? What solutions are we offering people?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
As the Deputy knows, Mayo County Council identified 17 properties that were social housing stock in Erris in the north Mayo area. There was a pilot in regard to doing work, particularly in regard to the outer leaf on that property, and that property was successful and tenants have been put back into that property. As part of our overall review of defective concrete blocks in Mayo, we have undertaken a desktop exercise in regard to stock that we believe will be part of a programme to bring them back into use. We are looking at that and we have-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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When can local authority tenants who are in houses that are not fit for living in because they are impacted by pyrite expect to have alternative accommodation? Can Mr. Gilligan give us some type of a timeline?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
At the moment, we only have a number of houses, probably in single-digit figures, that would be vacated due to defective concrete blocks. We have undertaken a number of desktop surveys and we are looking at making a submission to the Department in regard to a number of houses throughout the county. We will be looking at works. We will also be looking at this in the context of doing a pilot and looking at a number of initiatives and schemes to bring those properties back into use. Some of the work will be on the outer leaf and some will be on relief work. If necessary, we will look to demolish those homes.
When we submitted our vacant stock in regard to the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, indicators, nine units of stock were identified as having pyrite. That would be included in the total figure of 91 from 2001.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Will people get alternative accommodation if they are in houses that are very badly impacted? Will they be offered alternative accommodation by Mayo County Council?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I completely understand that. What Mr. Gilligan is saying is that the council is dependent on the Government giving the council the resources to be able to address the situation for council tenants in Mayo who are impacted by pyrite.
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
Absolutely. We will certainly be writing to the Government in this regard.
It is important to note that the current scheme for defective concrete blocks is for private home owners. We have received money from the Government in relation to one or two properties, particularly in the Erris area.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First, I would like to acknowledge Senator Cummins for allocating me speaking time. I would also like to welcome my colleagues in Mayo County Council and also Mr. Paddy Mahon. My first question is in relation to the 11 additional staff who were allocated to Mayo County Council. Can I get an understanding of their roles and how they will assist in the delivery of the Housing for All programme?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are they specifically dedicated within the housing section in Mayo County Council or do they have dual roles? Do they have specific resources allocated for the delivery of both social housing and affordable housing?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are the town regeneration officers and the vacant homes officers additional resources on top of that 11?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Kelly for the clarification. Regarding Mayo County Council's engagement with the AHBs, what percentage of new social housing builds are AHBs delivering within the set targets?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With which AHBs is the council engaging at present? Are they active projects?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I must compliment the council on its targets which exceed the Department's original set targets. That is certainly welcome. There is a huge need in relation to the delivery. It is good to see these projects up and running locally and around the county. Some of them have commenced already.
The affordable housing scheme is hugely important. Many young people and young families are in desperate need of housing. Given that the Department refused Mayo County Council entry into the original scheme, what changed in relation to the approval of the new Westport scheme? How can we learn from that application to replicate it in towns like Castlebar and Ballina which have affordability constraints? Also, what will the second scheme for Westport consist of?
Mr. Simon Shevlin:
We were not in the first group for affordable housing because County Mayo was assessed as not having an income constraint of over 5%. We got KPMG to carry out an analysis of the Westport market for us. Its analysis proved that there was an affordability constraint of over 5% and we made our submission to the Department based on that. The first application is for 13 units in Westport. The second application for Westport will comprise at least 16 more affordable housing units in a site in Westport.
Regarding Castlebar and Ballina, we have asked KPMG to carry out the same assessment that was done for Westport. We hope to have the report in March. If it proves that there is an affordability constraint, we will start to put together an application for both Castlebar and Ballina.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is certainly welcome news. This committee may review the KPMG report, take the learnings from it and ask the Department to roll it out across schemes in other counties which may be impacted by similar situations to that faced in County Mayo not so long ago.
My final question is about the repair and lease scheme. From what I see in recent data, County Mayo has had 19 properties put back into use since 2020. I certainly feel it is a worthy scheme which should be promoted with both existing private landlords and within the council. How ambitious is Mayo County Council to utilise that scheme and how better can we promote it into the future?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
We have very ambitious plans for the repair and lease scheme in County Mayo. We believe it has huge potential. Mention was made of the 19 repair and lease scheme units that we have brought back into use. At this stage, we have a number of applications. We received 181 expressions of interest for 2022. A number of key things have happened in relation to this. The appointment of our vacant homes officer is important. We are actively promoting the scheme. The 50% increase from €40,000 to €60,000 is very welcome and got a number of interested parties on board. We have had 29 applications and we believe we will get 91 units on that. One of the things that we have been promoting regarding the repair and lease scheme is that it is €60,000 per unit and multiple units will receive multiples of that amount. It has significant potential. One aspect is the cost sometimes associated with bringing a vacant property back into use. We are seeing that in relation to the price of construction and inflation. It depends on what state the property is in and how quickly it can be brought back into use. If the property owner has funds, they can utilise the repair and lease scheme. We are seeing greater traction in relation to that. We see it as a scheme that will continue to grow.
Through our vacant homes officer in Mayo, we are presenting to each municipal district. In the next couple of weeks, we will be doing a series of roadshows. We will be out there promoting the schemes to people. We have done a lot, but there is a lot more work to do. We have the head down and we are certainly ambitious on delivery over the next number of years.
We want to deliver on our own targets relating to in excess of 20 units each year over the next number of years. That is something we are working on.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is a very welcome update. This grant contribution should be introduced from €60,000 to €80,000, particularly on the back of building cost inflation and the cost of reconstruction.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We will act on the recommendation concerning the KPMG report. We are picking up interference regarding the witnesses from Mayo County Council if microphones are still on when people are speaking in this room so we will leave the witnesses from Mayo County Council muted until they wish to respond.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Mahon, Mr. Brannigan and the chief executive of Mayo County Council and the director of housing to the meeting. I will stick to pretty short concise questions based on their submissions before us today. Rather than having a load of questions and answers, I will be concise and I hope the witnesses will be able to be concise in their replies. I will touch on Longford first. In his opening statement, Mr. Mahon said that Part V delivery is entirely dependent on the level of construction activity. We all know that. That relates to the private housing sector. Mr. Mahon said there are 17 approved planning applications that can deliver up to 50 Part V homes. That is good. What is the story about those planning applications? Has Mr. Mahon a date and timeline for a commencement matter? Are these stuck in the system? Are developers walking away? Are they not incentivised to develop these? What is the impediment? Why are these not up and running? Has Mr. Mahon any indication of when they will be up and running or commencing?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I would like to be able to give the Senator a response to that but the market has come and got planning permission through the system and we are waiting for the market to decide the time is right to deliver significant housing in Longford. If and when it is delivered, Part V will deliver that figure.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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The 50 units. We are talking about an affordable housing scheme, the market not having the capacity to deliver and applications being granted permission with the potential for 50 Part V houses. They have all stalled and the knock-on effect is a negative one. I thank Mr. Mahon for sharing that with us. He went on to say that Longford County Council expects to appoint a town regeneration officer in the coming months. Has that position been advertised?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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So Mr. Mahon can see that being in place in the next two to three months.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. Councillor Gerry Warnock, with whom Mr. Mahon would be familiar, has contacted me on a number of occasions regarding the affordable housing scheme. Today I read an article published some weeks in the online edition of theLongford Leader. Initially, Longford was not in the scheme. Regarding the suggestion that we now have a scheme, I mean no disrespect but it is only a minute scheme. What is being suggested involves between 11 and 13 houses. While it is a start and I am not here to knock anyone, it is very disappointing. On the one hand, we have all these houses with planning permission referred to by Mr. Mahon and the market will not let them start while on the other, public representatives here, including my colleague to my left, Deputy Flaherty, make a really strong case for an affordable housing scheme. Deputy Dillon spoke earlier about the importance of young people and affordable housing so we know there is a demand and a need for affordable housing yet the best the Government can do is cough up some mini scheme that will be on a trial basis - a pilot scheme for 13 or 14 houses. It is not good enough. I do not know what sort of a gesture it is but it is not a meaningful one and Longford County Council is going to advertise and have expressions of interest. It will have a hell of a lot more expressions of interest than there are houses. What is Mr. Mahon's view on the scheme? Does he think there is the capacity? I know there is demand. Does Mr. Mahon think the scheme is ambitious enough? Does he think it is the right way to go? Does he think it cautious or slow?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I would welcome if and when we get approval for a scheme because an affordable scheme in the county is better than none. The Senator is right. Councillor Warnock and his colleagues on the county council have been very proactive in calling for and promoting an affordable scheme, as have Deputy Flaherty and his colleagues in the Oireachtas. The expressions of interest will tell us about the level of interest. I agree with the Senator that there will be a significant level of interest. We do not have a meaningful private housing industry in the county.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It goes back to the market.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
Despite the fact that the council has been delivering a significant number of houses over the past six or seven years, there was a hope and an expectation that this would stimulate the private housing sector, but, unfortunately, this has not yet happened in Longford. I think the next stage is a State-supported affordable scheme that might lead to something more meaningful where we have the builders in Longford building houses there and not coming to the east coast and building houses here, which is what happens at the moment. I will pass over to my colleague, Mr. Brannigan.
Mr. John Brannigan:
It is very fortunate that we have an affordable scheme or the bones of a scheme to advertise in early 2023. We have had significant engagement with the Department over the years to get to this place. In the conversations with the Department, it is very willing to look at the model that is there and adapt it but at least we are starting on the journey. We believe there will be a need for more than ten to 12 units and we believe we will get there.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I do not think any of us needs to be convinced there is a need. Yes, it is a journey but as of today, we have no scheme approved by Government. Am I correct in saying that? We have no affordable scheme for Longford approved by Government as of today? Is that correct?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Longford County Council has some properties that are derelict and have been brought to my attention. How many, if any, of those properties are on its derelict sites register? Has it done a comprehensive trawl of its own property assets be they sites, lands or derelict properties? As Mr. Brannigan knows, there is an obligation on the council as custodians of State assets and land assets to keep a register. There are no categories of subdivision. If they are derelict properties in the name and ownership of Longford County Council and under its stewardship, they should be on the list. Can Mr. Brannigan confirm how many properties are on the register and how many of them are in the ownership or under the control of the local authority?
Mr. John Brannigan:
There are 48 properties on the derelict sites register in Longford but five of them will be removed because people have done work on them. None of these properties would be registered to Longford County Council but we would keep a record of any vacant or derelict property on our system and would deal with them in a prompt manner. We would have acquired some derelict properties to acquire a land bank and would have dealt with them demolition. They will go through a Part 8 process to build new properties.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Longford County Council have any capacity for new housing units on any of the land it owns itself involving derelict or vacant sites?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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What sort of numbers does Mr. Brannigan think might be produced from that?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will take the next slot, which is the Green Party slot. I presume the witnesses are advanced in their zoned land tax maps and out to public consultation, etc. In its submission, Mayo County Council said it had 1,500 extant planning submissions uncommenced. I will take a nod from the witnesses from Mayo County Council if that is correct. Did Longford County Council highlight how many uncommenced extant planning permissions it has in its submission? How many does it have?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Perhaps he could come back to us with that at a later date. Of the 1,500 extant uncommenced planning submissions identified by Mayo County Council, did it identify the reasons why they were uncommenced? Was it because of infrastructural constraints or as Mr. Mahon said about Longford, a demand for that private housing market?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
It is not about infrastructure. It should not have an extant planning permission if there is an infrastructural deficit. What we have seen in a number of counties is probably a reluctance by developers to bring forward sites that they had permission on, perhaps for various reasons including cost. That is borne out by the number of developers who had sites and want to engage with local authorities to bring forward this land for development under social housing programmes. We engaged with developers on the various options and schemes that are available in order to try and coax some of those forward for development but with limited success to date.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I expect the extant uncommenced planning permissions in Longford have also arisen for the reason Mr. Kelly outlined, namely, the level of demand for private housing.
On development that is applied for and built, for what percentage of the councils planning approvals granted each year does one-off or single unit housing account? I note the Office of the Planning Regulator's recent report showed a significant increase. Has either of the local authorities experienced an increase in one-off developments? The term "one-off" does not differentiate between one-off rural and urban, to the best of my knowledge. The question is on single house units.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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What is the position in Mayo?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
I do not have a figure but I think the perceived increase in one-off houses might have been due to the reduction in other developments. It was not that the number of one-off units particularly increased. There is a tight control in terms of rural housing policy and then there are environmental and other constraints in certain parts of the county. I do not see it as an issue of rural housing increasing because of a lack of urban housing or instead of urban housing but there was a period where it may have seemed that was where houses were being built.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Would single housing units account for 40% or 50% of the overall number of planning applications in Mayo each year?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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My next question relates to engagement with the Land Development Agency, LDA. Have the councils engaged with the LDA to any extent? Can the LDA bring something to the table for both the Mayo and Longford local authorities in terms of delivery of affordable or cost rental housing, for example?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
We have not dealt directly with the Land Development Agency. We were looking at one particular site, an unfinished estate in Castlebar, but we did not engage directly with the agency. We went through another route. We engaged directly with the Department to bring those units back into use. That site is particularly complex. My understanding of the LDA is that its focus is mainly on larger urban areas and the cities. We did not perceive a need to engage with the LDA on the site I mentioned. We are pursuing this site ourselves-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Kelly. I want to go to Longford now.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We see commentary on the amount of bureaucracy and red tape from the Department. I am paraphrasing what is sometimes said. Do the councils find it to be an overly bureaucratic system? I do not want them to bite the hand that feeds them but we are trying to learn from local authorities when they appear before us. We read the commentary from experts in the media, on social media, etc. Is the system in place for local authorities to build social and affordable housing schemes overly bureaucratic or is there good oversight of the use of public funds?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
Proper governance is needed regardless of what is being done. That is the first point. Housing for All is very ambitious, providing for around 30,000 units per year right through to 2030. That is substantial investment and many strands of that investment involve a lot of different agencies. Our experience of the Department, as I said earlier, is generally very positive. We will not always agree on everything but through our local elected members and the elected Members of the Oireachtas, we always make the case for accelerating our own housing development, engaging with the AHBs, looking at vacancy and looking through the lens we have in Longford. The Department has an obligation to cover the whole State. As recently as last night, we had a very positive meeting with the Department on vacancy, affordable housing, the retrofit programme and the voids programme. A member of the team came down to our chamber in Longford and we had a very positive and meaningful engagement. We are able to meet each other in person and explain our concerns and the Department can do likewise. That is a good and positive relationship. We will not always agree but we have managed to achieve our targets thus far. We are now on a journey on Housing for All and I hope we will achieve the targets the Department set for us between now and 2026.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is generally the response we have been getting from the local authorities which have been telling us that the funding and resources are there. They are all suffering the same problems in trying to recruit staff. There is also the issue of staff retention and high interest rates putting prices beyond what might be affordable. I will put the same question on engagement with the Department to Mayo County Council.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
Our response is similar. We live in a bureaucracy and we have various issues to deal with, including the public spending code. The delivery of housing in the current environment is a complex matter. I have dealt more extensively with the housing unit in the Department in recent months. I find it open, responsive and engaged. A number of changes have been made in recent times, including the single-stage approval and so on. These have been very positive in assisting in dealing with what is a complex issue. I have found a lot of changes in the past couple of years.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the officials from Mayo and Longford county councils for attending. I will ask Longford County Council about vacancy rates in local authority-owned dwellings and, in particular, the findings of the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, Local Authority Performance Indicator Report 2021. The report showed that the highest level of vacancy, percentage-wise, for local authority dwellings in the country was Longford County Council, at 7.19%. That is a very high vacancy rate. Looking at some of the other vacancy rates, Monaghan, which is not terribly far away from Longford, had a much lower vacancy rate of 0.84%. The report also showed that Longford County Council had the second highest re-let times in the country, at 67 weeks. In most local authorities, the times are less than a year. In Monaghan, for example, it is 13.6 weeks. Why is this the case? Why does Longford have such high levels of vacancy. I presume it is not due to a lack of demand for social housing. Why does the council have such long turnaround and pre-let times? What is it doing about this? Has it made any progress on this in recent years? Has it set itself targets on its vacancy rates and pre-let turnaround times and to get its vacancy rate down?
Mr. John Brannigan:
We certainly do not want to have a vacancy rate of 7.19%. It currently stands at 5.8% so we are working in a positive way. We want to get that figure down to a maximum of 3% and to go below that in time. I mentioned earlier that many of our vacancies arose from the council facilitating transfers for people from one local authority property to another.
Since we have introduced the tenure transfer policy, it has certainly reduced the number of vacant properties. When a property becomes vacant we carry out significant refurbishment work. We are looking at the level of work that is completed. On some of the properties that have become vacant over recent years we have completed the energy retrofit programme. It was easier to do it when the property was vacant. Then we had a lack of contractor availability. We have increased that pool from four contractors to seven now, so we hope we can get more work out there and speedier re-letting of the properties.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Brannigan for those replies. Sligo County Council has made particular progress on this in recent years. Has Longford County Council engaged with Sligo County Council to see if there are any lessons to be learned from what it has done?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I am singling out Sligo County Council only because it has made particular progress on this. It has managed to significantly reduce quite high levels of vacancy over four or five years. As for obstacles or challenges in respect of getting vacancy rates down, is there anything else Longford County Council has identified that could be worked on or could make a difference in this regard?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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So some of the vacancy was arising from those sorts of issues.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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People do not want to move to those areas because of those kinds of serious issues.
Mayo County Council's opening statement referred to land banks and the difficulty it finds in acquiring additional land for social housing at a reasonable price. Could the witnesses tell us more about that and the challenges in acquiring land? Is there anything that could be done to assist local authorities in that regard? What are the witnesses' views? What are the challenges or obstacles in that regard?
Mr. Simon Shevlin:
I will answer that. In reality, nearly 80% of our social housing lists are based in Castlebar, Ballina, Westport, Ballinrobe and Claremorris, the five major towns. Those areas have better land than most places. We are diversifying. We are buying derelict sites now in those towns to build there because of the lack of greenfield sites on which to build houses. It will also help our dereliction issue in those towns. That is where we are at the moment. We have a number of sites we purchased in the past year and we are beginning to go through the purchase, the acquisition, this quarter in terms of land squared. In a place like Westport it is very hard to buy land because of the cost and the high demand there. In Castlebar there is also quite a high demand and it is a matter of finding the right location to buy the house.
As was stated, 70% of people are in one- or two-bedroom apartments or houses. These are for old people who want to find sites which are close to towns and amenities and the shops and services required in those areas. It is a challenge to find them there. I am interested in the smaller towns as well. We are working through the dereliction process there. Instead of buying greenfield sites, we are trying to buy derelict sites there. We touched on CPOs earlier but we are trying not to go down the CPO route where we can. We are trying to do a deal with the owner of the property and find those sites that are derelict. We have done that in a number of towns around the county last year and this year.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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As for the derelict and vacant sites Mayo County Council is seeking to acquire, is it the case that it gets a site where there might be a derelict or vacant building and then it hopes, through infill, to be able to increase the density and get a number of homes there? Is that what the council is trying to do?
Mr. Simon Shevlin:
Yes. There is an example in Castlebar. We bought two buildings with a CPO. One of the buildings consisted of legal offices. We hope to put up to 21 units in those three buildings in the next two years. Then we see dereliction with one- and two-bedroom apartments in the town centres.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It is clearly a very useful approach, but I take it from Mayo County Council's opening statement that it needs to acquire land banks in addition to those derelict and vacant sites. Could Mr. Kelly talk us through the challenges around that or what could be done to assist local authorities in that regard? Vacant, derelict and infill sites are very important as well.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
Probably from the Department's perspective, it made funding available at the end of last year for the acquisition of land. What we are finding are just practical difficulties in terms of either lands not being available or, where they are available, constraints or issues which we feel are difficult to surmount. We do not want to run into a scenario where we are trying to develop something and someone asks, "How did you end up buying that?", or a scenario where a landowner has an unrealistic expectation, perhaps because the local authority is buying the land, as to what the value of the land is. At the end of the day, we have to be able to deliver a certain number of units on that land at an appropriate price, whether it be social or affordable. Therefore, while in theory one would expect that it should be easy enough to acquire land, in practice it is a little more difficult.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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When Mr. Kelly talks about the types of constraints that could be on land that could cause issues, could he give us just a general idea as to what he is talking about?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
It could be as simple as access. We are quite fortunate in Mayo that our water services infrastructure across our towns is quite good, so it is more practical issues around flooding, access and issues like that and perhaps location in the context of sustainable development vis-à-vishow far out of town and so forth.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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It would be fair to summarise Mr. Kelly's comments as indicating there are a lot of things to consider. It is not just a question of acquiring a few fields and there you go; you have to look at all those different things.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The next slot is a Fine Gael one. Senator Burke is next. Senator Carrigy, I think you are somewhat under time constraints. Do members mind if we give the two Senators an expanded slot and just deal with both of them in it? That would suit you, Senator Carrigy. I will let Senator Burke go first, to be followed by Senator Carrigy.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the two delegations: Mr. Kelly, Mr. Shevlin and Mr. Gilligan from Mayo, and Mr. Mahon, whom I know originally as a member of Mayo County Council, and Mr. Brannigan from Longford.
I have a number of questions. I will continue on from where the Chair left off in respect of an over-bureaucratic system and getting a handle on it. I refer to the 11 additional staff for Mayo County Council who have been funded by the Department, and I think Longford County Council said that it was getting nine additional staff. How is that decided? Is it decided on the basis of the number of houses the council is to build over the next five or six years? Who decides that a council needs 11 additional staff or seven additional staff or maybe no additional staff? I remember when I became a member of Mayo County Council first, which is going back quite a while, that a small number of local authority staff looked after housing, loans, renting and whatever else. Mayo County Council is to build, I think, 1,000 houses up to the end of 2026, 90 of which it has built already. I would think 11 additional staff on top of the staff who are there already is a quite sizeable number. How is that decided? Is it the Department that decides? We would just like to know as a committee and as legislators.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
In an overall context, I have been a long time in local government and it has become more complex.
There are more elements to all areas of service delivery now that require additional human resources. My understanding is that we made a submission looking for 20 staff and we were allocated 11 based on, I suppose, the distribution across local authorities. We have to remember - this has been pointed out in previous discussions - that those 11 staff are new. There were zero staff previously because there was no housing construction programme. Following the recession, capital housing teams were run down to nothing. The emphasis was on maintenance, estate management, allocations, etc. Effectively, there are 11 staff. They are not additional to an existing complement. The reason for the number is the amount of work to be done over a short period and, as already outlined, the number of schemes that we are advancing at any particular point. If we are building three schemes to deliver 1,000 houses, maybe one would not need as many. However, we have many different strands, streams and Government initiatives under that overall social and affordable housing programme to deliver, and, as a result,, every one of those is required.
We outlined at the outset that, in spite of our best efforts, we have not been able to put all 11 staff in place yet. We are at, Mr. Gilligan says, six. I hope it is around eight or nine.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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On water and sewerage services, there was a time when members of local authorities would table a motion to get a sewerage scheme or a water scheme extended to a town or to have a new scheme put in place. How does that system operate at present? How is the need within towns and rural areas progressed in view of the fact that water and sewerage services are now considered a separate entity? Is it those involved in the latter who say that is a population in a particular area and that an extension is needed or is it the local authority that engages with them in the context of getting extensions or new schemes?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
In the first instance, they generally develop from the perspective that Housing for All developments will be serviced. In an overall context, we have an opportunity to feed into Irish Water's capital programme. Obviously, one of its commitments was in terms of the environmental issues in dealing with locations where there is untreated or insufficiently treated sewage going into our watercourses. There is a limited capacity now to get extensions or new developments, especially within a short period.
The rural water programme is still within our gift. We develop a programme for the extensions of schemes and the enhancement of schemes on an ongoing basis under that heading.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I have two further questions. The first relates to anomalies in the planning laws. There can be shortcomings or whatever in legislation and regulations that are brought forward. There does not seem to be any great feedback from local authorities to say that there is an anomaly and that when the Department is rectifying the position, it should take a certain course of action. There are two examples that have been put to me by councillors in the past while. Many doctors have their medical practices in houses or commercial properties, but they are now moving them to primary care facilities. This is also the case with physiotherapists and others in the medical field. Those are not covered under the planning regulations. Any place where they go - and if it has to go back into housing - it would seem that they have to apply for planning permission. In my view, that is wrong. There is an anomaly there and it could be overcome by the local authorities.
There is another anomaly in the context of religious services. I have not seen whether local authorities have brought those forward. Not all religious services are provided in churches, for example. They are provided in properties which were commercial properties in some cases. If they are going back into housing, the planning authority is insisting that people apply for planning permission in order to convert the relevant property. That should not be the case.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
As a sector, we have had a good opportunity to voice our views in the context of planning legislation. I have been a member of the planning advisory forum, and there has been good feedback from the sector on a number of planning issues over a period.
On the two examples cited, to give the Senator my view, either in terms of a medical practice or any other business or, indeed, a religious service, they can have impacts on local communities, especially where they are being brought into residential areas. It is important that there is a control in place because it may work out in certain circumstances but, with traffic movements and congregations, it might cause difficulties in a residential neighbourhood. It is important to have some control there.
The other issue we talked about earlier relates to town centres. What we have to be careful about is a scenario where we allow activity that is eminently suitable to town centre locations to drift out into residential neighbourhoods. It might be effective for the practitioner himself or herself, but what we want to ensure is that we do not further erode the commercial activity in town centres and make sure that that is where those particular activities are focused. That is merely a personal opinion.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Are there many people on the homeless list in Mayo? If there are people on the list, is there a policy in the county in respect of what provision is being made for them?
Mr. Simon Shevlin:
We have a homeless forum. We work on the Housing for All. We house people. We allocate people emergency accommodation. We work on the statistics to find those people long-term accommodation. I do not have our current figures to hand but we are trying to reduce homelessness as much as we can. What happens is that if somebody comes to the municipal district, he or she is either allocated emergency accommodation by us or given vouchers for bed and breakfast accommodation or a hotel in the locality. We have specific houses around the county which are designated for emergency accommodation for families with young children, etc. That is how we manage at present.
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
I will come in on that as well. In 2022, Mayo County Council had 112 presentations as regards homelessness. They would have been made up of individuals and family members. On current numbers, between ourselves and Roscommon, we have a total of 86 adults and 76 children. We have seven individual offices that deal with housing. We have presentations in relation to that, I suppose in excess of two and sometimes up to three a week, for the country.
We have seen an increase in the number of people presenting as homeless. Obviously, this is a sensitive and difficult area. What is assisting at present is the moratorium on rents in the context of notices to quit. That will be in play until March. We are certainly working on that. We have an active team dealing with housing and homelessness. What we try to do in a sense is intervene as best we can to ensure that the situation does not become a homeless situation. We try and work with people who are in danger of losing their homes through no fault of their own.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I call Senator Carrigy. I propose that Deputy Flaherty take the Chair. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairperson for letting me in at this stage. I appreciate it.
I welcome Mr. Mahon and Mr. Brannigan. Having served on Longford County Council, I have known both of them for many years. I have every confidence in their ability to deal with the issues relating to the county, not only in the context of housing. Since they came to Longford, they have both done significant work to improve the county. That is there on the record. I compliment them on all the work they have done.
To be quite honest, the title of Housing for All needs to be changed. The reality is that it is not housing for all. When it was introduced two years ago, County Longford and a number of other counties were not eligible for affordable housing. This is not what Housing for All should be about. Significant changes have been made since whereby particular towns can apply, but, again, Longford does not fit the criteria. Recommendations came from the committee, but Longford has been left out. A significant number of people living in my home county have been frozen out of housing because Longford is not eligible for a scheme.
I noticed from watching on the screen earlier that Longford County Council is hopeful of a scheme. To be honest, that is not good enough. It is not that it is not good enough on the part of Longford County Council, it is not good enough on the part of the Government and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It is January 2023. We should not be in a situation where we are quite hopeful about having an affordable housing scheme. This is on the back of good work done by the county council to bring us to this point. We are as entitled as any other county in Ireland to have affordable housing. It is not housing for all and the title needs to change until everyone in every county has the opportunity to purchase and affordable homes.
With regard to the midlands retrofitting scheme which was introduced a number of years ago, 78 houses have been completed and 32 are under construction. There has been a significant increase in the cost of getting works done. I know there have been delays because of this. What has been the shortfall the local authority has had to make up out of its own resources to ensure the projects are completed? The Government and the Department should be funding the shortfall and the tab should not be taken up by the local authority which is delivering the scheme for the Department.
Deputy O'Callaghan made a point regarding the significant number of vacant homes. We know there are certain reasons for this and it is not a case that houses are being left empty. There are issues with regard to location and getting people to take houses in certain areas. This would account for a certain number of issues. The fact Longford County Council only appointed a vacant housing officer in the fourth quarter of 2022 is one of the main reasons for the higher percentages. I hope that the person who has filled the position will be there for a long length of time. We only have to look at the figures for the repair-and-lease scheme, Croí Cónaithe and the vacant homes scheme to see they are low. This is because we have not had a full-time dedicated person. I am confident that if we look at the figures in 12 months' time we will see a significant improvement.
The infrastructure that needs to be delivered by Irish Water, particularly in Edgeworthstown and Ballymahon, is an issue. This is required to allow the number of houses to be expanded in what are the second and third largest towns in County Longford. Where are we with regard to capital works? What sort of timeframe is involved in order to allow more development in these areas? The existing systems in the two towns do not have the capacity to deliver. Will any other town in the county face problems in the short term?
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
I will address some of these questions and ask Mr. Brannigan to deal with the others. We have made good progress on the affordable scheme. Perhaps the word "hopeful" is a bit soft. We are confident that we will have a positive outcome very soon. We have had a number of very positive meetings with the Department in recent months. The most recent was last Friday, and there was another on Thursday. We believe there is momentum and we will be looking for expressions of interest from the public in the near future. As I said to Deputy Flaherty, we are not there yet but I believe we are almost there.
The retrofit scheme is very welcome. Because of the just transition process in the midlands and the midland regional transition team, Longford was one of the counties allocated funding ahead of the rest of the country. It is now two years later and we are part of the national retrofit programme. It was always understood and expected to be 100% funded. The funding originally came from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. We have completed approximately 70 houses and we are carrying €10,000 or €11,000 per house. To me this is not 100% funded. It is something on which we have engaged with the Department and we will continue to do so. If a scheme is 100% funded my understanding is that it should be fully recouped. As I said in my submission we recoup most of it. The residents in the houses are very happy with the final outcome of the retrofitting programme. It is very positive. It is positive because we reduce emissions, we are more energy efficient and it is a better quality of home for the residents. We have a significant number of houses to deliver. The sector has to deliver 35,000 houses between now and 2030. We need to have confidence in the security of the funding. If we are carrying €10,000 or €11,000 per house it impacts on our ability to do other work on houses in terms of planned maintenance.
Deputy O'Callaghan mentioned vacancies earlier. This is a significant concern for us. As Mr. Brannigan pointed out, we have put in place, and intend to put in place, a number of actions to address it. We are happy that at the end of last year we had the highest level of social housing vacancy in the sector. Mr. Brannigan and I will be sitting down with our team to manage this on a monthly basis, to drive down the level of vacancy, introduce further efficiencies to make sure our houses are vacant for as little time as possible and to ensure that residents can be in those houses and live in good quality accommodation. It is something we take very seriously and intend to address as a matter of urgency. I will ask Mr. Brannigan to deal with the issue of capacity in Edgeworthstown and Ballymahon.
Mr. John Brannigan:
I will do so, and I will also touch on a few other points. With regard to the energy retrofit we are carrying €10,000 or €11,000 per unit. The Department's guidelines are to achieve a B2 energy rating. To do this we install heat pumps but for the heat pump to be efficient we need to replace windows and doors and do insulation works. This drives up the cost from what the Department approves.
Having a vacant homes officer in place is very important. We welcome the position and the funding for it. The vacant homes officer engages with local media and will attend the next full council meeting to brief the members on what schemes are available and to raise further awareness.
Senator Carrigy referred to infrastructure in Edgeworthstown and Ballymahon. The infrastructure upgrades for wastewater plants in both towns are the responsibility of Irish Water. Ballymahon is at stage one and the process has started. Edgeworthstown has not started at this point in time. To deliver residential properties in both areas it is key that the upgrades commence at pace. We do not have a timeline for when they will be completed at this stage.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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The normal timeline for delivering something at stage one in another town would be two or three years. What are we looking at in this case?
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I do not think that is acceptable from Irish Water when dealing with the second and third largest towns in the county where there is a lot of industry. It is something that needs to be pushed and progressed further. I welcome that the vacant homes officer will promote the Croí Cónaithe scheme and other schemes, including the repair and lease scheme. There is significant funding to tackle the derelict homes that are in many of our towns and villages. There are probably a lot of properties where people do not even know who owns them because they go back generations. This is an opportunity to deal with them. I have every confidence the percentage figure will have reduced if we look at it in 12 months time. I thank the witnesses.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the two management teams from Mayo and Longford for coming before the committee.
It is meaningful. It is nice to meet the representatives and see the whites of their eyes. This debate gives us a human dimension to all of this topic, which is what this is all about at the end of the day.
I do not have any more questions for Longford County Council other than to say we are concerned about the high vacancy rates. We accept that the county council will do something about that. It is not about communicating to the media but about getting the houses up and ready.
Mr. Brannigan made a valid point about heat pumps. I have just installed one so I know that even with a kitchen fan switched on, or anything that lets air out, it is sucking up the cost. It is quite extraordinary. One of the disadvantages of a heat pump system is that one can overventilate because it sucks up energy and power thus increasing the energy bill. If we approve these schemes, we need to look at the holistic package in terms of the necessary insulation and retrofitting that must go hand in hand. Otherwise, these schemes will be a waste of money. I genuinely thank the delegation for coming in.
I have a few questions for Mr. Kelly. He is looking well and mighty since he moved from Galway County Council to Mayo County Council. He said in his submission that "at present approximately 1,500 housing units are permitted in Mayo". This goes back to what we spoke about in the context of Longford. These units are not going forward, so what is the plan? I think we know what the problems are. Can Mr. Kelly indicate whether any of these units are going forward? Does this relate to how the market has stalled and how developers are reluctant to proceed? I ask him to comment briefly on each of my first set of questions.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
We have engaged with the developers and continue to do so. We do not have a line of sight as to when the units may come on stream. Our approach will be to ensure that developers fully understand how the various initiatives brought about by the Government can be used to assist in bringing sites forward for development. That is our approach over the next period. We do not know how successful it will be but we will give it our best effort.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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As many as 1,500 units is a very significant number. This seems to be common all around the country. We talk about solutions and we clearly know that we have these planning permissions. These are clearly a focus and are important to this committee. I thank Mr. Kelly for his response.
I am concerned that the county council is not filling the additional 11 staff. Mr. Kelly set out the associated reasons and concerns. I echo those concerns. I believe we need to examine the matter as we have heard about this happening across local authorities.
Senator Carrigy touched on affordable housing. It is exceptionally disappointing in Longford. I am repeating that because I said it earlier. I repeat the same thing concerning Mayo. When I speak about having a little pilot scheme, I do not wish to detract from schemes of ten or 20 houses because they are important - they are people's homes. It is a bit Mickey Mouse or pie in the sky because none of them have been approved. As of today, this committee can categorically say that no affordable housing scheme has been approved for counties Longford and Mayo. Those are the facts as of today. There is a scheme in terms of a site and I will come to that.
Mr. Kelly mentioned that Mayo County Council acquired a site in Castlebar and is working on two other sites but there is a financial constraint. Does the delivery of housing targets depend on the county council acquiring sites?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is a difficulty and requires money. Mr. Kelly has told us about a scheme being conducted by Mayo County Council in Castlebar. How many units will be delivered in Castlebar?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
The site in Castlebar will have 25 units. As we have outlined, in order to achieve the increased ambition in our programme we need additional lands to cover around 300 units. In terms of meeting the targets that have been set for us, we need additional land for around 30 units and of that we will provide 25 units.
A scheme has been approved for Westport and we are looking at a second site as a mixed initiative between social and affordable housing. Following the initial exclusion of some counties, the Department is very open to any town making a case and coming forward with schemes. The fact that Mayo County Council has a small scheme in Westport is only a reflection of the site that we started out with as opposed to any limitation by the Department. Let us reflect on this interesting point. We conducted a survey on the affordable housing need in County Mayo. We got between 700 and 800 responses but curiously only 34 of the respondents said that they could afford a house that cost more than €200,000, which is hard to deliver in the current price scenario. That aspect is something we will develop.
It has been well rehearsed that we got additional staff under a number of different headings and programmes, including active travel and so forth. Panels have been run down very quickly. We put a pilot scheme in place especially for technicians and lower engineering grades. We exhausted that panel in a short period and had to create another panel. This has been a challenge but we are working on it to ensure we have staff in place.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I have a question on the survey, and the interesting research which showed that 34 people felt they could afford a house that cost €200,000. Can Mr. Kelly share the heads of that survey because that information would prove interesting to this committee? I believe we should take a look at the information. I know there are different horses for courses. Westport is a very beautiful and desirable place to live. I would not mind living there myself. Can Mr. Kelly share the results of the survey with this committee?
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Deputy Gould. We have gone slightly off schedule but I call Senator Cummins now and then Deputy Gould can comment. Is that okay?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives of both Mayo County Council and Longford County Council for being here today.
The vacancy rate in local authorities is an issue that I have addressed with all of the representatives of the local authorities who have appeared so far before this committee. I welcome the comments that the representatives of Mayo County Council have made about utilising the repair and lease scheme. I welcome the fact that the county council will engage in a roadshow-type effort to raise awareness of the scheme and the county council will engage with the various actors, including local builders, estate agents and owners of derelict and vacant properties. That is a good approach and has worked exceptionally well in my own county of Waterford. As the representatives of both county councils will know, over 158 units have been delivered under the repair and lease scheme in Waterford. The scheme has had a transformative effect and I contend that a similar number of units should be delivered in all of the local authorities. The fact that Mayo County Council is in that space and is going to do this work is welcome.
My first question is for the representatives of Longford County Council, which has delivered just six units under the repair and lease scheme. The units were delivered in 2018, which is when the scheme commenced. Why has the county council not delivered any units under the repair and lease scheme since 2018?
Mr. John Brannigan:
We have engaged with several property owners and have 48 properties on the derelict sites register. We are making those 48 property owners aware of our scheme but, regrettably, there has been no uptake. We are starting a new campaign to raise awareness of the schemes that are available.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Has Longford County Council commenced CPO proceedings in terms of those properties?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is a carrot and stick approach. The repair and lease scheme is the carrot and the CPO is the stick. If the stick is not being used, or not being seen to be used, there will not be any take-up. Evidence has been provided to this committee from local authorities that have been exceptionally proactive in the CPO space. Limerick City and County Council has acquired upwards of 100 units through CPOs in recent years. Waterford City and County Council has made use of the repair and lease scheme. There has been a carrot and stick approach. There is no excuse for any property to remain vacant now. There are a great many schemes for the owners of such properties. However, the onus must be squarely on the local authorities. If these properties are not being used, the local authority has to step up, fulfil its end of the bargain and utilise that stick where the carrot is not being availed of. At this committee meeting today, I ask the councils to take a more proactive approach in that space.
Mr. John Brannigan:
We appointed a vacant homes officer in the last quarter of last year. She has been very proactive in engaging with the owners of vacant properties. Through negotiation, we have also purchased other properties that are not on the derelict sites register but which are vacant. Over recent years, the emphasis of our staff has been on delivering new housing stock and upscaling our procurement and delivery of turnkey and direct-build units. With a town centre first and regeneration officer now to be appointed, the whole issue of vacancy and dereliction will certainly be a priority for us.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Longford County Council will progress the CPOs----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----as a result. I will go back to Mayo County Council. It operates the website vacanthomes.ie. Will its representatives give the committee an overview of its operation? Who operates it for the council? If somebody clicks on vacanthomes.ieand registers a vacant property in, for example, Longford, what happens?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
The website, vacanthomes.ie, was initially set up as part of Mayo County Council's response to Rebuilding Ireland and now forms part of our response to Housing for All. It is set up to deal with all aspects of vacancy and dereliction. It works on the basis of crowdsourcing. Crowdsourcing is based on asking multiples of people to help you to solve a problem, particularly using the Internet. It is a national website. It is run by Mayo County Council on behalf of the local government sector. When people log into the website, they are presented with a number of questions. These include questions on the type of property, such as whether it is detached or a bungalow. They are asked to identify the condition of the building including the condition of the roof and whether there are broken windows. They are also asked whether there are any visible signs of activity around the house. Another key thing is that people are asked to indicate how long the property has been vacant. Once they fill in those submissions, an alert notifies the vacant homes officer of the local authority that a property has been logged. It is then up to the vacant homes officer in each local authority to investigate such properties. At this stage, thousands of people have logged properties on vacanthomes.ie. I thank the public for their engagement in this regard. It is not just members of the public. Property owners have come on board to tell us that they have vacant properties and want to know what to do with them. It is up to the vacant homes officer to get in contact with those individuals and to try to bring the vacant property back into use.
With regard to the repair and lease scheme, as I have said already, it is a very important tool. I certainly welcome the increase from €40,000 to €60,000. We are actively promoting the scheme here in Mayo. One of the things that many people do not realise is that you can get multiple units out of a single dwelling.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The scheme limits are per unit as opposed to per property.
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
That is very important. The repair and lease scheme is really a response to areas where there is a housing need. In fairness, there are properties logged that are not in areas where there is a need for social housing. That is certainly something we have to look at. It is also important to note the whole idea of sustainable development, which has already been mentioned in this committee meeting. Not every vacant property needs to be brought back as social housing. We need to get the mix, which includes private and rental accommodation, right as well. That is an overview of the work.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Gilligan is speaking more than Senator Cummins, which is an achievement in itself. Will he let the Senator back in?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The choice-based letting system is the appropriate system for determining need in a particular area. As I have said to multiple local authorities, I know there are areas of choice that they operate but there will always be demand for a unit in a locality. If decisions are being made not to take units under the repair and lease scheme because an arbitrary list says that there is no demand, that is nonsense. If that property is put on the choice-based letting list, I guarantee there will be demand for it.
On vacanthomes.ie, will Mr. Gilligan provide the committee with a breakdown of the number of registered vacant properties people have logged on the system per county since it came into operation? That would be useful because what we are trying to ascertain through our work is what is working and what is not. It is then up to us to follow up with other local authorities as to why certain properties were not followed up on. It would be useful if Mr. Gilligan could provide that breakdown to the committee.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I call on Deputy Gould and thank him for facilitating the other speakers in coming in.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair. I appreciate that. I thank the witnesses for joining us here and online. I will pose the same question to them as I have asked every local authority. When a person goes into recovery, is their time on the housing list suspended? I have asked other local authorities this question. If a person spends three, six or even 12 months trying to get on their recovery journey, they should not lose their time nor should their time on the list be suspended. Every local authority has confirmed to me that is not its policy. I want to have on record whether it is the same for the authorities represented here today.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Great stuff. Unfortunately, I will have to agree with my colleague Senator Cummins, which does not happen too often,-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is very rare. It is a breakthrough.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----on the point he made about choice-based letting. We have seen the success of this system in Cork. I believe every local authority should be operating it because it gives choice back to the people when it comes to applying for homes available in local authority areas.
Also then it would help local authorities to see where people are interested in living. That gives local authorities better information to provide housing. I encourage every local authority to implement the choice-based letting scheme. How many people, including those on the HAP scheme and the RAS, are on the housing waiting list of each of the local authorities? I ask for the gross figure.
Mr. John Brannigan:
I confirm that in Longford we use the choice-based letting system. It is generally reviewed in a quarter but there is generally between four to six properties advertised for choice-based letting and we notify our elected members of where those properties are. There are currently 715 applicants awaiting social housing in County Longford.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does that include people who are on HAP and the RAS?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the total figure. I thank Mr. Brannigan.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to voids, that is, council properties that are boarded up, what is the timescale for turning those around?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Depending on the age of the housing stock and how it was looked after when people were living in it, are there blockages? Are there things that the committee could bring forward or raise with the Department, which could help speed up the process? Are there issues with getting resources to turn these properties around, in particular those that would be more complicated or older?
Mr. Simon Shevlin:
There is a resource issue regarding builders to tender out this work and get timelines to complete the work. As we all know, there is a shortage of labour throughout the sector and with small jobs like this, especially voids, it is sometimes very hard to get a timeline from a builder to do the work. If we get a timeline, as my colleague, Mr. Gilligan, said, it could be six or nine months until the work starts.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Before Longford County Council responds, would the councils consider taking on additional staff to establish their own teams to tackle voids? I have spoken to other local authorities about having a designated team whose job would be to turn around voids. Waiting nine or 12 months to have a void made ready is a problem in the middle of a housing crisis when every day counts. I encourage local authorities to look at putting teams in place themselves.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
It strikes me that while that would be of assistance in one way, it is the type of team that would be required and we are very much removed from that model of delivery at the moment. To put the type of team that may have been in place some years ago or traditionally in local authorities would be quite challenging now. In regard to the trades the local authorities are looking for, we would be competing with the private sector. It would be another area of recruitment where we would find it difficult to fill positions. I suspect it would need quite a big structure to take on that work with dedicated teams.
Mr. John Brannigan:
Four years ago, we introduced a deposit scheme so that when tenants get a property they have to pay a deposit on it. This is non-refundable if there is any damage done to the property. We now get the properties back in better shape than we previously did. We also encourage tenants, through the annual estate awards, to keep their areas in good condition. In regard to extra staff, similar to the case in Mayo, the multiple trades that would be needed for heating, plumbing, electrical and painting and decorating, mean it would not be a very efficient system if a local authority was to go down that route. We get better value for money by engaging with a contractor directly.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would say we do not get value for money because we have to calculate the loss of rental income that arises when a property is left idle for 69 weeks. That applies to every void, not just one property. That is a rolled loss. In addition, those vacant properties are magnets for antisocial behaviour and dumping and they bring down the environment of the whole estate.
In regard to dereliction, the Derelict Sites Act was introduced in 1990. How much is applied in derelict sites levies? Are the witnesses confident that the vast majority of derelict sites - we cannot say 100% - are on the derelict sites levy? The local authorities tell this committee this is complicated. We have had a Derelict Sites Act in place for 33 years this year. Nobody should be allowed to leave a site derelict in the middle of a housing crisis. Mr. Brannigan made a point earlier about the stick. The days for plámassing people who are letting good homes and buildings rot are gone. I encourage every local authority to be as assertive as possible. I would like a comment from each council in regard to the derelict sites levy and the numbers.
Mr. John Brannigan:
To date in Longford we have not applied the levy because of the economic cost of applying the levy against the return we would get. However, as property prices have increased, we are reviewing that in 2023. We anticipate that there will be four to five sites on which the levy will be imposed. In addition, the residential land zone tax will tackle a number of vacant sites in Longford town and county.
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
Currently, 284 sites are on the derelict sites register in Mayo. We have undertaken a programme across our towns to add to that. The levies are quite small. I do not have an accurate figure but it is in the region of €40,000 per annum. In regard to the 284 sites, we recently embarked on a fairly extensive invoicing of levies. That is creating a little bit of exposure on that issue. It is fair to say that a number of the Government initiatives over the past year or two have increased the focus on vacant and derelict property. It is true in our case and, I believe, in the case of all local authorities that there is much more work being done in that space now than perhaps there was over the period since the Derelict Sites Act came into being.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am disappointed with both responses. Given the amount collected from the levy, Mayo and Longford are not the only local authorities where that applies. I will be monitoring all the local authorities to see how many sites are on the derelict sites register and how much is collected from the levy. This is national legislation that was passed 32 years ago. In the middle of a housing crisis we cannot accept this. I encourage both councils to do their best to put a team in place. This will be a win for the local authorities but in particular for people in housing. There are thousands of people in the Mayo and Longford local authority areas who are crying out for housing and we have properties rotting. I know the witnesses are doing very important work and I appreciate that. This is the main area I encourage them to look at.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Do both councils operate a framework for turning around properties when they become vacant or do they tender those on an individual or bundle basis?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Sure. I appreciate that.
Mr. Paddy Mahon:
-----but we are seeing a little bit more movement in the market and that will help us. As I said earlier, we are focusing very much on vacancies as of now and getting early intervention in our properties to turn them around, as Deputy Gould said. There is an income stream there that we are potentially losing out on. It is a very well-made point and something we are very conscious of.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Sure, but there is a framework so Mr. Mahon does not have to go out to tender each time.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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How about in Mayo?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What is the turnaround time from a property becoming vacant to re-letting?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is in the higher percentile. What about Longford?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Okay. It is not to hone in but I am just trying to understand, with a framework in place, how it is so long because frameworks have worked well in reducing it in other local authorities. What I saw in the past was the difficulty in getting people to tender. When the local authorities went out with a bundle of properties they might get a single tender and then they would have to go back out and they were losing time. The framework should eliminate that so I am trying to understand how it is so long.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I still do not understand how the average could be so high with a framework in place. Is it that no timelines are attached to the frameworks? Is there no penalty in place for non-compliance? If someone on the framework takes 69 weeks to turn around a property, clearly he or she should not be on the framework.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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So that is what has been happening essentially. X contractor had multiple properties and was doing them piecemeal, which essentially defeated the purpose of the framework and that is now being addressed.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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How is it being addressed?
Mr. John Brannigan:
We ensure that no contractor has more than two properties for renovation works. We have increased the pool of contractors so we anticipate that in 2023 we will reduce and drive down the vacancy rate. We set an internal target of getting it below 3% and driving it down even lower than that.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is okay, I thank Mr. Brannigan.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gould wants to come back in.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Homelessness in Longford has almost doubled in two years. In 2020, there were 78 homeless people and, in 2022, there were 151, which is a staggering increase. I will come to Mayo next but how much of a challenge is Longford County Council finding it to house homeless people and to find emergency accommodation for them?
Mr. John Brannigan:
To give a brief background, the presentation of homelessness in Longford has always hovered around the 70 to 80 mark. Up until 2020, we had 78 homeless presentations and, in 2021, we had 93 and last year, we saw 151. There are no rough sleepers within the town so we cater for them all. We work with various approved housing bodies and bed and breakfast providers, and with the HSE to get supports where they are needed for these individuals.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Brannigan. Has Mayo County Council experienced much of an increase in homelessness? What are the figures and how challenging is it to find emergency accommodation for those people?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
We did see an increase in homelessness for 2022. Prior to 2022, we had an average of 100 presentations per annum but that increased in 2022 to approximately 120 at this stage. It is a very complex issue and homelessness is something that can happen to anyone at any particular time. The moratorium on notices to quit is certainly helping at the moment to give people some sort of security even if only for a couple of months. In Mayo we are proactive in dealing with the homelessness issue. We have a homeless HAP placefinder and she is there to work with people to identify rental properties. One of the big issues we have, and we are not dissimilar to other counties, is that when one looks at daft.ietoday there are only 41 properties for rent in Mayo and there is a huge issue in relation to the number of rental properties out there. We see a significant exodus of small landlords and individual accidental landlords from the market, which means that properties for HAP are much more difficult to find.
We also have a tenancy sustainment officer and, as I mentioned earlier, we try to work with someone who might be at risk of homelessness to deal with that individual and mediate as best we can to ensure he or she can remain in his or her home. We have an number of emergency housing units around the county but we are under pressure. We are identifying additional units and working with various agencies to deal with this. It is a challenge but it is a very complex area and we are proactive in this area to try to reduce homelessness because of the number of people are presenting to our offices.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister encouraged local authorities to buy HAP properties where a landlord sells a property with a tenant in place. How many of those has Mayo County Council bought or is it in the process of buying?
Mr. Tom Gilligan:
We have bought a number of properties and we are in the process of buying properties where there is a tenantin situand a there is a risk of homelessness. As I mentioned already the issue we have in Mayo is due to a number of what I would call small, accidental landlords, who are not seeing the financial return associated with having a property. We are also trying to encourage those landlords to remain in the market to catch up with primary housing and social housing builds as well.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about in Longford?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many properties were the subject of a compulsory purchase order last year and how many derelict sites do the witnesses expect to CPO this year?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about in Mayo?
Mr. Kevin Kelly:
We have acquired four properties by CPO. One of those CPOs involved a number of properties together and they are being redeveloped for social housing here in Castlebar. We had not used it up to that over a period but, as outlined, we have set up an internal cross-departmental team with the vacant homes office and environment. We employed an additional resource to specifically work on derelict sites. We are much more active in that. The name of the game is not specifically to acquire by CPO or to generate income from a levy. It is about getting the property back into use and that is the focus initially. There are risks when acquiring properties by CPO both legally and in terms of costs. We are committed to using that as a measure in the coming years.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their answers. If they have any issues with the CPO process or anything relating to housing, we are here to try to help and support local authorities put together plans that we can discuss with the Department and the Minister. Restoring vacant and derelict properties is the quickest way to get houses back onstream for families who desperately need them. If the witnesses are saying there are blockages or that the Department could provide help, I ask them to let us know because we can do something about it. It is all about delivering housing now. I again thank the witnesses for their answers.
Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We are almost at the conclusion of the meeting. Although Senator Boyhan is not at the meeting it is important to emphasise sustainable development for rural areas. The representatives from Mayo County Council touched on that concept. In 2008, County Longford was left with 2,000 units across multiple ghost estates. Nobody is more frustrated than I am with the with pace of the roll-out of affordable housing. For largely rural counties it is important to get a scheme that not only works but is also viable for the local authorities, particularly if they partner with a developer. Some progress has been made on the relaxation of rules where typically now a couple with an income of €60,000 will be able to qualify for an affordable house in most of those largely rural counties. There have been some incremental steps. No local authority wants to go back to the spectre of ghost estates. We all appreciate the absolute desire and demand to build houses as quickly as possible. In the case of rural areas, it must be sustainable development.
The meeting has been very constructive. I thank all the speakers, those who are present from Longford County Council and those appearing remotely from Mayo County Council. It is good to have the people from Longford here. I know Mayo people only like to come up if they are going to Croke Park but I encourage them to come and join us for the next engagement. We are not as bad as they say and we do not bite. We will try to schedule the next meeting with them for September and they might be able to join us then in person. We can do it on a Friday afternoon and they can then go to the match on Sunday.
We greatly appreciate the work the housing staff in both local authorities are doing. Multiple new schemes and new initiatives have been rolled out under the Housing for All plan. In the main these plans have been enthusiastically embraced. We have seen significant indication from both local authorities of their successes. We have seen some of the shortcomings and that is something we need to take back to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The witnesses should bring back the message that their work and the work of all staff - outdoor staff, clerical staff and engineering staff - is greatly valued.