Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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We have apologies from Senator Ruane. We have an important and special meeting today, probably our most important meeting of the year. It is our last meeting too, so that is good. The agenda item for consideration today is engagement with the students from Carlow Educate Together regarding young people and our built environment.

At this session, we are joined by Mr. Mark O'Brien and students from Carlow Educate Together. We are delighted to have them here and are glad they could be here. Deputy Murnane O'Connor and I attended a presentation earlier this year on the same topic. We thought it would be great to get our guests before the committee to hear their views.

I must go through the normal housekeeping matters I address before all the committee's meetings. I advise anybody partaking of the meeting via MS Teams that the chat function is only to be used to make us aware of any technical issues and should not be used to make any general comments or statements. I remind members of the advice on parliamentary privilege. In advance of inviting our guests to deliver their opening statements, I wish to advise of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. For witnesses who are participating from the committee room, they are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I do not think that issue will arise today.

We have five minutes' speaking time for our guests, followed by questions and answers with the committee members. I believe we have a number of contributors. We will start with Mr. Mark O'Brien, who will be followed by Ms Zena Deyassa, Ms Heidi Dowling, Mr. Aidan Gammell, Ms Dulcie Corbett and Ms Grace Kavanagh. I remind members that we are going to try to stick to this agenda item for today's discussion.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

I thank the assembled committee members and the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Funchion, for inviting us here today so that the children in our school can address them on their experience of being a young person in Carlow.

As people who are living in and around Carlow town, our class decided to do some action research on what elements of our town and built environment work well for our children and teenagers. We did some walking and cycling tours of the town's streets and parks, and looked at how accessible it is to get around as a young person. We looked at our shared public spaces and at our streetscape and built environment. The children recorded their thoughts and opinions over several weeks and they discussed ways in which they felt our town could make changes to better serve them. We researched our ideas online and looked at how cities and towns both in Ireland and abroad approached some of these issues and the solutions they came up with. The children thought about how these solutions might be applied in Carlow town to better serve its young people.

We have a lot of initiatives in our school which aim to make it a better place to be for our students, our wider community and the wider world. We have green flags, active flags, healthy eating policies, well-being policies and biodiversity goals. I am sure we are not alone as a school in that regard. Many other schools have similar ideals and goals. However, there is a growing perception among our staff and students that the aspirational thinking and initiatives seem to end at the school gate. There is a sense that the values and ideals that we are trying to impart to the children do not count for much in the real world. We teach about sustainable travel and reducing carbon emissions. However, our small town is choked with traffic which seems to worsen by the year. We teach about exercise and the importance of being outdoors. However, many of our children cannot walk safely to school, GAA training or any other after-school activity due to the lack of pedestrian crossings and poor infrastructure in the town. We teach about the climate and biodiversity crisis and despite the ambition in some town plans, the children are noticing the lack of tangible action in Carlow.

Along with the practical ideas for change the committee is going to hear from the children, this is also a very timely lesson in participatory practice and showing the kids how important it is to exercise their voices. The young people of Carlow make up nearly one third of our population, which is a sizable cohort. Our elected representatives and politicians who help to shape policy and plans for the town have a responsibility to listen to these children. It is important for us as a town to include all of our citizens when making decisions.

We first gave a version of this presentation in VISUAL Carlow to two of our local Deputies, members of Carlow County Council, the environmental officer, engineers, the architect and planners of Carlow town. We invited Ms Muireann Ranta, a lecturer from the South East Technical University who specialises in children's rights, to address the assembled adults and stakeholders about how best we can facilitate the inclusion of young people’s opinions. I would like to paraphrase some of her thought-provoking speech here. I ask the committee to bear in mind their listening responsibilities as duty bearers under the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child. Ms Ranta spoke about the Lundy model of child rights-based participation, which has been influential in public policy in Ireland. Lundy talks about the four essential elements of space, voice, audience and influence which are necessary for children to fully enjoy their right to participation. If we look at that in today’s context, we can see that a space has been created where the children are being given an opportunity to voice their views. We can also see there is an audience here to listen to those views. However, Ms Ranta explained that the research shows that children involved in these types of spaces continue to express their disappointment that despite their hard work and time researching and putting forward their informed views, there is a feeling that the influence part of the Lundy model is not apparent when decisions are being made about the spaces in which children live. In short, we, as adults, need to respect and value children’s opinions as rights holders in our society.

I would now like to welcome the children to talk to the members of the committee and the Cathaoirleach about their work. We decided to categorise our research into five areas - active travel, shared public spaces, our natural environment, art and design of public spaces and prioritising people. Zena, Heidi, Aidan, Dulcie and Grace will talk about their research and their findings. They and some of the other children present would be very happy to answer any questions from the members of the committee after their presentations.

Ms Zena Deyassa:

I am going to be talking about active travel in Carlow town. I will be talking about the cycling and pedestrian infrastructure in Carlow town. We did a lot of research for this project and walked and cycled around Carlow town, took photos and made notes and observations. We compared what we have to other towns in Ireland and around Europe. We found that there have been some recent improvements in our town but there are many places that need to be made far safer for us, the children of the town.

Most of us can cycle so why do we not? There is a great cycle and pedestrian lane from the roundabout to our school. It is wide and separated from the road. It is shared with pedestrians, like the one on the way to Tyndall College. Why is it that this bicycle track by our school is nearly empty? Only one person cycles to our school daily. He is a senior infant who cycles in with his parent. That is one person out of nearly 450 pupils. Some teachers and students cycle occasionally in the summer months. We compared those statistics to similar towns and places in Europe and nearly 75% of children are able to cycle. Some 65% of students in a German school in suburban Hanover with which we have been doing an Erasmus project self-cycle to school. What is the difference in Carlow?

There are some good, short segments of cycle lanes in our town but very few of them are joined up. We surveyed children in fifth and sixth classes and the main reason people do not cycle anywhere is due to road safety concerns. As part of our research, we cycled along the new protected bike lanes near Hanover Park and concluded that being separated from the traffic makes an enormous difference. We cycled around the town on the cycle path that runs alongside the N80. Some of the time, we were on the roads with the trucks and cars. At other times, we were off the road but crossing many entrances to industrial estates. We were also up and down and on and off kerbs every few seconds. Many of the bike lanes ended when we came to junctions. There was no infrastructure to allow us to cross safely at points on the roundabouts. In fact, at our school one must travel almost 800 m in one direction to cross the N80. In the other direction, there is no pedestrian crossing at all.

Bike lanes are not expensive in comparison with roads. Even if we cannot have segregated bike lanes everywhere in the town centre, school bikes and pedestrians should have more rights of way. Perhaps cars should also have to drive more slowly. Outside our school, the speed limit is 60 km/h, which is too high. I hope we can make Carlow more accessible for cyclists and pedestrians so they can feel safe and ride happily all over town.

Adding more bike lanes, and safe bike lanes, at junctions would promote cycling to school. Bike lanes would give children and teens more freedom to go places without needing their parents to drive them.

Hardly anyone cycles to school or GAA training or into the town centre. Carlow town is only 4 km or 5 km in diameter. It should be possible to cycle nearly everywhere and reduce the amount of unnecessary traffic. The main thing stopping us cycling is having to share busy roads with cars. We are relying on you, our elected representatives, to ensure the engineers and the council make this happen.

A bike share scheme would increase the number of bike users. Carlow would be an ideal town for a bike share scheme. Kilkenny and Sligo, which are similar in size to Carlow, had schemes installed recently and they are very successful. There is an electric bike share scheme in Kilkenny. Why can we not try something like this in Carlow? The Carlow development plan says we are meant to be prioritising active travel. We have the CTU campus at one end of our town and many schools in the centre. Carlow would be an ideal town for a bike share scheme, with bike drop-off locations at the bus station, train station, town centre, schools and colleges. This has worked well in many European cities, especially for commuters who use buses and trains.

There are many benefits to going on a bike instead of in the car. Reducing air pollution will help keep us healthy and the environment healthy. Cycling also creates the space for more greenery, more trees and less traffic. We should have cycle routes to the commuter towns and villages like Palatine, Bennekerry, Ballinabrannagh, Leighlinbridge and Killeshin. Maybe there could be a cycle lane of sorts along stretches of the River Barrow.

Over 72% of all commuting, work and education trips associated with Carlow town are done by car, according to the 2016 census. Within the town's urban areas, including Graiguecullen, that means these trips are mostly less than 4 km. It would be a lot easier if everyone who could cycle just cycled or walked. Walking is great exercise, is accessible to everyone and is great for health and well-being. I know not everyone can cycle or walk. If you really need to drive, you need to drive, but for a lot of people a change in habits and attitudes towards active travel would be very beneficial at many levels.

There should be more pedestrian crossings in Carlow so people can be safer walking. We did a survey and there are very few pedestrian crossings in Carlow town. Drivers are walkers. We should make it safer for everyone. Pedestrian crossings do not cost all that much and are very easy to put in. It is hard to walk safely in the town centre anymore. We believe we need better protection for cyclists, people on scooters and pedestrians in Carlow. By doing this, more people might rethink how they travel. I thank the committee members for listening. We hope they will take some of our ideas into account.

Ms Heidi Dowling:

I want to talk to the committee today about public spaces for young people in Carlow town. There is a lack of places for young people and teenagers to go in Carlow town. For a town with so many young people, there are not a lot of public facilities for them. A skate park is good if you are a skateboarder, but if you are not, it can get boring pretty quickly. There are loads of campaigns telling young people to get outside, be active and exercise, mind their mental health and spend time with friends. It would be great if we could make these things happen by giving us the facilities to do them. Sports clubs can be good but do not suit everybody either. There are plenty of spaces around Carlow, acres of land that are not being used at all. It just seems a bit of a waste to me. Maybe it could be used to make more outdoor spaces for people to enjoy.

Some of the images on the screen are from public areas and parks around Europe. We found them online and saw some designs we liked. The small ones are called pocket parks. These are great examples of indoor spaces for young people to use. We have a good youth club on Burren Street but there are very few other public indoor spaces for young people in Carlow town. The library can have good things on but it is not a great space for socialising. It would be great if one of the many derelict buildings in the town could be used as somewhere young people could spend time. Public spaces for children, both indoor and outdoor, are nearly always aimed at very young children and not teenagers.

These images on screen show two of Carlow's parks. These are great and amazing parks, especially the one on the right, Hanover Park. Hanover Park has been recently redeveloped and I think it is a step in the right direction. It is bright and open with cool seating areas where I can spend time with my friends. There should be way more things for kids our age.

We are not short of space in Carlow town but the way we use it could be a lot better. The town park could have a lot more areas rather than huge expanses of grass. The hills in the centre are cool but more seating areas all over the park would be cool, not just regular benches. Again, most of them are aimed at younger kids rather than kids our age. The equipment is safe and probably lots of fun when you are five years old but it is a bit boring for us. We will not be able to move around and be active. I do not think that can really happen with some slides and swings.

Lots of kids, especially girls, drop sport and other activities when they get to secondary school. A research report called Adolescent Girls Get Active came out last year. It found there is a lack of social spaces for teens where they feel welcome, wanted and included. They feel there are limited opportunities to try to learn new things and skills and ultimately feel good about themselves. Loads of girls quit sport completely between the ages of 13 and 15. Maybe some of the people on the committee might be able to relate to this, either about themselves, friends or family. The report states that the feeling of not being good enough is the main thing that makes them give up. However, girls have the right to exercise and be involved in physical activity. This is where our public representatives may provide the space to allow this huge percentage of girls to keep enjoying themselves and be physically active. I thank the members for their time and for listening to our presentation.

Mr. Aidan Gammell:

I am here to talk to the committee about the town environment. The council has nearly €3 million to use for the benefit of the town. So far, it has used it on roads, which we already have a huge quantity of and of a decent quality. We have presented to members in The VISUAL, they have spoken to us in our classroom and they have even put us in the newspaper. Still, after all of this, no progress has been made. This is why we have accepted the kind offer to speak to the committee in these Government buildings today. We are here to advise and inform the committee about the problems that could be fixed for the benefit of our town.

I am here to talk about the big area of wasteland and unused space and the advantages of foliage and greenery around Carlow. When we took a look around the town and on Google Maps, we found a good few examples of wasted space. We also found the town was lacking in greenery. This is a problem we find recurring throughout the town and it is something to be fixed. We have spent a lot of time throughout the past year researching, thinking and talking about what we would like to see happen in our town. I know there are changes happening at the moment. We spent a lovely lunchtime in the newly upgraded Hanover Park a few months ago and cycled on the newly installed protected bike lanes. However, there are other things we found that we think could be changed.

One of the things we noticed when walking around the town is the lack of trees on our main streets. One of the advantages of trees in an urban environment is that mature trees can produce the same cooling effect as ten room-sized air conditioners. This makes urban trees effective in reducing urban heat and hotspots in cities. Studies have shown that if people have more breathable oxygen in their lives, their mood and well-being will significantly improve. The planting of native trees is also good for biodiversity. Small native Irish trees that are good for urban areas include spindle, rowan, hawthorn and bird cherry.

The photo on the screen is one example of trees in an urban landscape. In Carlow, there is a lack of pollinators and greenery in parts of the town centre, especially at street level. There are some attractive and colourful flower displays in some areas of town but we discovered that colourful bedding is not the best for pollinators. On screen now is an example of greenery in an urban space. The area is pedestrianised and there are lots of mature trees planted. Would this not be lovely at the fountain on Barrack Street?

Here, in this image in the presentation, is an example of trees in an urban area. Trees like these provide shade and better oxygen. Hanover Park has lots of trees like this but other areas could do with more being planted.

I love the VISUAL art gallery. I love the art exhibitions and interesting sculptures there, but this site right next to it is ruining it. It would be nice to put something that would go well with the grounds of the VISUAL or St. Patrick's College. If sites like this remain undeveloped, the council could make a pocket park or allow people to use it for something. Unfortunately, there are a lot of sites like this around the town.

This site in the presentation is the one that is probably most familiar to my classmates as it is right next door to our school. The site of the old sugar factory is humongous. I am not sure of the quality of the land, but planting more foliage will improve the air quality for our students and there would be a lovely huge park near the outskirts of the town. It runs all along the river and could be a great public amenity. It is privately owned but maybe something could be changed.

Another image in the presentation shows derelict land right next to the town park. This is a horrible site to look at and even worse for the environment. Even just removing the amount of rubbish and planting it up would be much better for the town. If you take a look at other towns and cities, they will have a lot of their infrastructure built on their river. If you compare that with our town, it seems pretty bad, but redoing this and making it a public space would transform this wasteland into a relaxing place to socialise and spend time with nature.

Thanks for listening to our presentation on our town environment.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

I will be talking about the use of art in public spaces and the general feel and visual appearance of the town.

In our trips around Carlow, we noticed that, in lots of places, our town does not feel nice to be in. They feel rundown and uncared for. People of all ages enjoy spending time in nice, bright, safe places and there are very few public spaces in the town centre where people our age can hang out with their friends.

When we walk down Dublin Street, an historic street in Carlow town centre, there are 14 empty or derelict buildings. There are two whole blocks on Tullow Street that are also empty or worse for wear. The space over many of the shops also seem to be unused. In a lot of towns people can live over shops, which brings life into the town centre, but that is not the case in our town yet.

In an image in the presentation we see large empty buildings on one of our main streets. When our class did some work on the historical census, we saw that in the past lots of families used to live in many of these buildings and over the shops. When there are so many families countrywide in need of accommodation, it seems wasteful to have these buildings lying dormant.

Another image in the presentation provides another example of a full row of empty buildings. This is wrong on many levels. Apart from the bigger issue of having empty buildings in a housing crisis, it does not make the town a nice place to spend time in.

As we walked around Carlow, apart from the derelict buildings, a lot of the shopfronts seem to be poorly maintained or to use plastic signage. Putting more effort into the front of the shops can really change the feel of the town. I understand businesses might have to spend more money upgrading their premises and shopfronts, but in the long run it might really encourage business. The following image is a good example of a new business taking pride in its shopfront. It has a nice old-fashioned canopy with seating outside on the weekends.

Something else I would also like to speak about is street art in Carlow. Street art can make public spaces and walls feel much more lively and colourful. Having street art can get local artists employment and there are studies showing that street art can even help local businesses as it encourages foot traffic, tourism and appreciation for the arts, and it creates a unique experience since no art will ever be the same.

Waterford has done some incredible work over the past couple of years by doing the walls of Waterford. The once drab and boring walls have been made so much more visually appealing just from the artists' paintings. Having local artists spruce up the bad paint jobs and murals could make the town have an extra popular colour and just feel more welcoming than old dirty paint jobs, which might not look as pretty. The example in the presentation is from Cork. The presentation shows art on the buildings of Waterford city centre. Public art brings great life into these areas.

Cork and Dublin also have lots of good street art but they also have ESB boxes that are painted by local artists and paid for by the local authorities. They celebrate local culture, welcoming tourists to the city and using many languages. This is something we could do in Carlow and other small towns.

Interactive pieces of art like the one in the presentation could be dotted around the town. They would brighten up certain areas and all ages would enjoy interacting with them. It can make people feel more welcome and comfortable in these spaces.

The image on the right-hand side in the presentation shows interactive sculpture, as it also might be used in seats in unique ways which might appeal to younger children and to older people and adults. They give our shared public spaces a more individual identity. The first image is from Carlow Shopping Centre. It is really effective and quite local.

Having seating areas in Carlow would be a nice and beneficial way to improve empty areas. When I go into town with my friends, having places to sit, eat and talk would be very important. Most of the time we have to eat by the fountain, which in my opinion is not the most attractive place, and having different types of seating areas that feel nice and are comfortable to be at would be a huge win. Also, it should not just be regular park benches but different types. As can be seen here from the presentation, it provides a much nicer and more enjoyable experience.

We found lots of good examples online of different types of seating. There is a great website, called Make Space For Girls, which has really good ideas, like the image in the presentation. Also, research has shown that in their teenage years boys can dominate shared outdoor spaces, and girls have the right to enjoy things and be included as well.

Thank you for listening to our research today. I hope the committee can take our recommendations and give us a version of feedback on what it can do with our ideas.

I will hand on to Grace now to talk about prioritising people.

Ms Grace Kavanagh:

I would like to talk to the committee about prioritising people in Carlow town. We went for walks and cycles around our town as part of this project. Our school is on the edge of town, on the side of the old sugar factory. We noticed on our walks that we found it quite difficult to get around, both walking and cycling. When we say "prioritising people", we mean that we think the town council should give more thought to how young people get around and where and how they spend their time in the town centre. I think making it a more people-friendly town would benefit everyone, not only young people. We believe everyone should be safe and happy in Carlow.

In the presentation, we refer to the Carlow county development plan for 2023. What happened to the 2016 plan? We are aware there are plans to try to improve things for Carlow. This image in the presentation is from the Carlow county development plan for 2023. It says that pedestrians will be considered first and cars last, but at the moment, and in our experience, it is completely the opposite. In fact, in one of our walks we saw cars mount the narrow footpath we were walking on. A huge bus blocking the footpath forced us to walk out on the road. There was a huge argument between two drivers trying to overtake each other on a small street.

Carlow County Council had plans from 2016 that also said it would prioritise walking and cycling. It very obviously has not done this. We welcome the new cycle lanes in parts of the town. However, when we tried to cycle around Carlow, it was incredibly dangerous in many places. When we were cycling near Éire Óg, which is a football club in our town, we were passing an entrance to a housing estate when a car came speeding past and almost hit one of our classmates. Almost every big junction we cycled through had no safe way for cyclists to cross.

We noticed that the reason the cars were mounting the pavement on Dublin Street was that it was too narrow for the cars to pass each other safely. This is partly due to the fact that there is parking all along the street. There are lots of car parks in the town. We do not need parking on every street as well. What changes could we make? There could be less on-street parking in the town centre, more walkways and pedestrian crossings and, most importantly, we could give the people of Carlow back their streets.

An image in the presentation is of Oliver Plunkett Street in Cork. It is a good example of what we are looking for: safer pedestrians - young and old - and lots of shops and restaurants. Streets like this would be good because there is no fear of getting hit by a car while walking. The street could have shops, which would be good for small businesses, and it would be good for people just sitting and socialising with their friends. You could also put in jewellery shops, cafés, clothes shops etc.

As part of this project, we looked at pedestrianised areas in cities around Europe. They all looked really busy, like fun places to be. We think something like the image in the presentation would be really nice for Carlow, like Princes Street in Cork and Capel Street in Dublin.

We found the following photo online when searching for Carlow town plans. It looks really cool, but the plan to do this was scrapped. Might it be possible to pedestrianise The Potato Market or Tullow Street, even at the weekends? There is a nice atmosphere in the town centre on Saturdays when the farmers' market is on. This could be made better by making the whole area safe to wander around. We found this image online. There were plans for The Potato Market to look like this in 2018 and they were scrapped. We want to know why.

We also looked at the idea of sharing roads with pedestrians and cyclists. The cycle lane shown on the screen is in Dún Laoghaire. It shows how we can leave room for cars but prioritise cyclists and pedestrians to move safely around where they live and go to school. I recognise that some people need to drive. For nearly all of us, our family members have cars. We are just saying that people do not need to drive everywhere all the time. It is not necessary to park right outside the shop every time.

Carlow needs to add more pedestrian crossings in order that older people and families can be safer. If committee members ask any of our parents, they will say that the traffic is the main reason we are not allowed to walk to places. When we go on school walks, there are no pedestrian crossings on the N80 ring road to get into the town. Thirty children have to cross roads on which there are two lanes of traffic, with the teachers having to stand on the road to stop the cars. It does not feel safe. If more pedestrian crossings were added, people would feel safer and would walk more often.

I thank the committee members for listening to us. We hope our ideas can make Carlow a safer and more pleasant place in which to live and spend time.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Brien and the other speakers. Their presentations were excellent. Their focus is on Carlow but most of us here would agree that all the things they talked about are also an issue in other towns. No matter where we are from, the same issues come up for children and young people, particularly there not being enough activities and cycle lanes and people not feeling safe to cycle and walk.

Mr. O'Brien mentioned that it is really important for the students to have a space in which they are heard. All the members of this committee have said from the start that we want to interact directly with children. We had a group of young people in who spoke to us about their experiences of the Covid crisis. Now we are hearing from our guests from Carlow. We hope to continue this type of engagement because it is very important to me and to all the committee members.

The first member to have the floor is Deputy Murnane O'Connor, who, as the witnesses probably know, represents Carlow in the Dáil. We will then go to Deputy Costello, who is a Green Party Deputy who represents a Dublin constituency. We will also hear from Senator McGreehan, who is joining us online, and Deputy Cairns will represent Cork. I expect we will all have the same opinion on the issues raised. I call Deputy Murnane O'Connor.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Like the Chairman, I am delighted to have our guests here in Leinster House. It is a great day and all the speakers did well. I see exactly where they are coming from and their point of view. As children, they are the future and will shape the future of Carlow or wherever they decide to work and live. Carlow has totally changed and being a university town will bring a lot more changes to it in the next ten years.

I welcome what the witnesses said about Carlow town centre. It is important that we listen to their concerns. The town centre regeneration project is being done under the urban regeneration and development fund. There was mention of the different issues in this regard. There have been changes within the plan but I can say with certainty that the regeneration of Carlow will begin. It will bring huge changes on Dublin Street, Barrack Street and the main streets in the town centre. Footfall is very important. Another issue that was mentioned is the condition of the derelict buildings on Tullow Street. I absolutely understand where the witnesses are coming from on that. A total of €22.5 million is being invested to address the problem. There were some issues between the Department and Carlow County Council and, as I said, there were some changes to the plan. That is all sorted now and we will see diggers in the town centre by the middle of next year at the latest. The project will revamp the whole town centre.

I agree totally that we need to look at putting in more pedestrian crossings. The speakers also mentioned cycle lanes. A lot of new cycle lanes have gone in but we need a lot more of them. We need to talk further with the guests and hear more of what they have to say on this. Have they ever spoken with the engineers in Carlow County Council?

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

They have come to our school. The road safety person from the council came in last May and we presented some artwork. There were engineers there from the council, as well as the former architect, who has since moved on from that role. There were also elected members of the council there.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is good to hear. The school's engagement is crucial for the future. The students have very good ideas and it is important that the local authority and this committee listen to what they are saying. They mentioned Hanover Park, which has just been revamped in the past few months. A lot of money has gone into that. More needs to be done, with a second phase to commence. As the witnesses will know, the Penneys site is now back in use.

As part of the change that will happen into the future, the VISUAL centre will form part of the new cultural quarter within the town centre. Within the next few years, we will see that cultural quarter being developed, incorporating the VISUAL centre, Carlow College, Tullow Street and on into Barrack Street. There are really good plans in that regard.

Anther initiative that is coming on board is an activity hub at Carlow Rowing Club . I am sure our guests all know the club, which is very much part of Carlow town. It now has planning permission for a hub, which will be a resource available to the town.

As I have outlined, a lot of work is going to be done in Carlow town. It is important that we move on with that work as quickly as we can. Mention was made of the farmers market, which is located in The Exchange. I do not know whether people have been to that facility lately. It is small but absolutely beautiful. The market was always open on a Saturday morning but now it is in an enclosed area. It is really lovely.

I am delighted the witnesses have highlighted their concerns. It is hard to compare our town with a city because we cannot compete with the cities in terms of our central government funding, our local property tax funding and all of that. Our roads are not as wide as city streets. Those factors bring a lot of challenges and we need to face them.

If the witnesses could make one major change to Carlow town, what would it be? Do they feel that a county like Carlow is disadvantaged relative to other counties in which there are cities? As a proud Carlow woman, I am aware that our guests are the future. What would they like to see happening? I compliment all the students and their teachers. Their school on the Athy Road is one of the most beautiful schools in the country. They have great teachers. I am aware there were some issues with parking and speeding on the road. It is important that we address that safety aspect.

While they are taking time to complete, there are a lot of good things happening in Carlow. The town centre regeneration will start next year and that will bring a lot of changes. All of the attendees will be part of that huge change. Well done on their excellent presentations.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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We do not have time for all the witnesses to answer the questions from each member. I propose that two witnesses answer Deputy Murnane O'Connor's questions, another two respond to Deputy Costello and so on.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

That is fine. Who would like to answer Deputy Murnane O'Connor's questions?

Ms Zena Deyassa:

I would like to speak about the funding. I accept that we will not get nearly as much funding as the big cities like Dublin and Cork. However, I checked some figures and saw we were given €2 million, only a very small chunk of which was spent. I would like to know what happened to that money.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

To clarify, that money was for active travel. I understand there was €2.3 million allocated but only €1.4 million spent.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot more to be done on active travel. The local authority is working with different groups and agencies and we will see much more happening in this regard. Some of the money is spent and there is more to be spent. The council is waiting on the Department before it can proceed. When funding like that is announced, it comes in stages. While one stage is being done, the council must wait for funding for the second stage. That might be unfair but the money will be given and there are more projects coming down the line. I will send the list of projects to Ms Deyassa. Is that fair enough? She is right that we must ensure the funding is spent, and where we spend it is very important.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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If we do not have answers today to very detailed questions the witnesses might have, we can submit those questions to the Department and get a breakdown of figures and so on.

Mr. Mark O'Connor:

We have been in contact with the active travel group from Carlow County Council and it gave us an update on what is happening. It was good of them to keep us in the loop. What Zena was referring to was probably last year's funding. We were given figures to do with that. There was €2.4 million allocated, but only €1.1 million was drawn down. This year, a similar amount was allocated. As of 30 May, only €110,000 of the total allocation for 2022 had been drawn down. Towards the end of November, there was another update but the figures from National Transport Authority were not available. We were just keeping an eye on that stuff as it was coming out.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Well done. I will check it as well. As the Chair said, we will get those figures; that is not an issue. What Mr. O'Connor said is totally right; it is important that when funding is given to a local authority, it is spent. If it is not spent, the money goes back to the Department. I will check to see exactly what was spent and I will come back to Mr. O'Connor on that. I have to leave to go to Taoiseach's Questions in the Dáil but well done to all our guests and I wish them a lovely day.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I apologise for running in and out of the meeting. The unfortunate nature of this place is that we all have to be in two or three places at once. The Joint Committee on Justice is meeting in a different room and I have to run between the two. I am also supposed to be somewhere else for a third meeting, so I apologise for running in and out.

The witnesses are speaking my language. I was happy to see the sorts of things they are looking for. One of the things I am conscious of is that they held up Capel Street as an example, but I will come back to that point. One of the first matters I wanted to talk about is the point Zena made about money. Money has been made available. My question relates to whether the money is being spent. That question has been answered already and we have been told it is not being spent. I do not know why that is. As the others are saying, that is something the witnesses need to talk to their local authority about. Sometimes one of the reasons is if there are not enough engineers in the local authority who know what they are doing in the context of active transport. In such cases, money can be made available but it will not be spent. When I was on Dublin City Council, there were not enough traffic engineers to do two big projects at once. One of the things the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, was doing was giving money to councils to hire traffic engineers who could deliver these projects in order that when the money arrived, there would be people in place to make sure it was spent. Our guests asked about money. I implore them to ask if the relevant posts have been filled, if people have been hired and if the council has enough staff to spend the money it has been given. When they are linking in with the active travel unit, the witnesses should ask if it has enough staff. If it does not, they should go and annoy their councillors, the Chair and Deputy Murnane O’Connor in order o make sure that the local authority hires those people.

My next point is that we need to campaign more. Our guests are doing great work, and they held up Capel Street as an example. The pedestrianisation of Capel Street has been a really positive development. We need to get Parliament Street, which is the next bit street over on the other side of the river, pedestrianised as well. We also need to pedestrianise Liffey Street. I could list about 20 more streets. However, we had to fight tooth and nail to get Capel Street pedestrianised. There are still people who complain about it and who want to see what was done overturned. One of the challenges in trying to achieve these kind of things is that it can be long and slow. Our guests will need to keep campaigning. There are lots of campaigning groups. I am from Dublin, so I do not know who the witnesses know in Carlow or who is down there. There are groups like I BIKE Dublin that were proactive in the city. There are pedestrian networks across the country. I am more than happy to link with the witnesses' teachers and provide links to some of these activists and campaigners. Maybe those people could share some of their experiences and stories with the witnesses, if that would be useful. It might help the witnesses to campaign harder in respect of this matter.

The other thing I thought of is a study on children and young people's independent mobility that was compiled by Mary Immaculate College in Limerick a number of years ago. The study related to young people being able to go where they wanted by themselves, independently. Grace made the point that her parents want to drive her places because there is too much traffic and they do not feel it is safe. However, them driving makes more traffic and we get this vicious cycle. One of the interesting things the Mary Immaculate College study showed was that the young people surveyed wanted independence. They did not want to be driven to school; they wanted to be able to cycle, walk or get the bus and chat with their mates and have fun on the way to school or wherever they were going. I can share this with our guests later but I encourage them to find that study and ask their peers in Carlow, do a small version of that study and find out what their peers think. What do our guests think? Do they like being driven to school or do they want to walk or cycle? Do they want the independence to be able to go somewhere? I think I know the answer but I am asking the question anyway. I have another question I might come back to later but I will leave it at that question.

Ms Grace Kavanagh:

I presume it is not just me who is not allowed to do that. It is true for a lot more people around Carlow, including everyone in this room. I have noticed that even in the summer you do not see a lot of people walking around. People are always in their cars, even when going up to the local garage. That is because there is lots of traffic. We would sometimes even be walking places after school in big groups and it is quite dangerous. Our parents always want to hear from us every few minutes to make sure we are okay because we have to cross and cycle past dangerous roads by ourselves without even a crossing or a cycle lane. The cars do not stop; they just keep going and sometimes you have to wait for quite a while.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

I know for a fact that when I go to town with my friends their parents will always be calling them. Most of the time that is not just them being over-protective parents. Imagine when you were 13; I know you would not have had mobile phones. Even if you had, you would not have been driven everywhere and stuff. There is so much traffic and there are not many good facilities such as bike lanes or pavements even. You might have to walk on the side of the road, which is not the most safe way to go places.

Mr. Aidan Gammell:

I have just one thing to say. When we were walking around town we noticed that there is street parking all along the paths. There are car parking spaces all along the street and there could be a massive multistorey car park 200 m or 300 m away. I was thinking that we could remove some of those parking spaces because there are multistorey car parks a short walk away and then we could widen the footpaths or put in bike lanes. When we take our walk around town we notice that there are some newly installed bike lanes and that there are a lot of bike lanes around the outskirts of the town. Then, especially on busy streets like Dublin Street and Tullow Street, where there would be a lot of people walking, there are no cycle lanes. A lot of people have to cycle through the town and they have to cycle on the outskirts because of the lack of cycle lanes in the town centre.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

This is going off Aidan's point but there are so many car parking spots which will increase the incidence of people parking. There is one outside the Fairgreen Shopping Centre, another outside Woodie's and another beside the bus stop. They are all within fewer than five minutes walking distance of each other and they are massive. The size of them is unnecessary. I cannot remember if we stated that in the project but it is a point that needs to be made.

Ms Heidi Dowling:

I want to add to what Grace said about her parents and so on. We have gone down the town multiple times after school and there have been times that we have been waiting for ten minutes to cross the road because there is no pedestrian crossing in sight for ages.

We would have to go to the other side of town, not even to find traffic lights but just a place where cars would stop. A car might be coming around a bend but we would not see it because there are no traffic lights or pedestrian crossings in that area.

Mr. Aidan Gammell:

Adding to what Grace said, there are massive car parks, like near Woodie's and Fairgreen, which are barely ever half full. The cars that could park there right outside the shops. These car parks are a few hundred metres away, a walk of less than 1 km. I know the car park near Woodie's because I go there quite a bit. It is barely ever even a quarter full. Tullow Street and Dublin Street are maybe a 500 m to 800 m walk from there. Those car parks are never full.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

This morning, when my mam was driving to the train station, we went past St. Leo's College in Carlow. People drive even 17-year-olds to right outside the door. It causes a lot of traffic. There is a car park less than five minutes away. Even if people live far away and need to drive, why would they not park in the car park and let the child walk instead of pulling up straight outside the school?

Ms Grace Kavanagh:

Regarding what Aidan said about the car park in Woodie's, there is a car park right outside Aldi, approximately 100 m away. Maybe there could be just two big car parks in the town and everyone could walk everywhere else. It is a small town. It is not a long walk from point A to point B.

Ms Zena Deyassa:

I wanted to say one thing about how the Deputy said to keep campaigning. I know this is totally off-topic. He said we should keep campaigning and keep going. I remember campaigning in sixth class, four or five years ago. I still have not seen any change. I remember going to the county council's office to campaign for climate action. No one came out and spoke to us. We had to go back. We have been campaigning for years for this. Like the Deputy said, it takes time. We have given time but we have not got any results from the campaigning we have done.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank everyone for the work they have put in. I am sitting here furiously agreeing with them.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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We have all been campaigning for years.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The unfortunate nature of social change is that one can campaign for years and see very little, then lots can happen quickly. I apologise since I did not mean to talk down or say to campaign more. I was trying to encourage everyone to keep going because I think they have done good work so far. Please keep going. By linking them with other campaigners and activists, they can see what others are doing. It is always good to get support and solidarity and to swap ideas. I thank the witnesses for their work so far and ask them to keep going. The conversation about car parks reminds me that there were recent conversations about ending car parking outside the front of the building here, because it was pointed out that there is a big multi-storey car park just up the road that we could all just use. Not everybody in this building agreed with that suggestion. While I furiously agree with the witnesses, as I said, I appreciate that it is an uphill struggle. One can go for a long time without seeing results, but things can happen quickly if they go the right way. Our job is to support the witnesses in that work. I thank them for coming in and challenging us.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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This is a public meeting, so it is being broadcast. It hopefully gives an added boost. I am lucky to chair this committee because its members are interested in advocating as well as possible for all the changes that we need to see which would impact on young people and in listening to young people.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for visiting and sharing the results of our research. While we are called the children's committee, it is quite rare that we engage with children. This means that we talk about children but not with children. It is important that the witnesses are with us. They can help us to understand why it is important that their voices are heard at this committee. All I have heard is common sense, which we do not always hear at this committee. I was impressed with all the work they did and with the results of their research. Last year, in advance of the Cork county development plan, I did a consultation with primary schools in my constituency, Cork South-West. I was blown away by their recommendations and sensible solutions to so many issues. They talked about many of the same issues that came up through the witnesses' research. They should not have to ask to be able to walk and cycle safely to school. I can understand why it is incredibly frustrating to campaign for years and not see any results. We know that feeling. It is exhausting.

I have some questions for whoever it would like to answer. Zena, Borys and Diana made a presentation on active travel that was useful. Students in Cork have also asked for safe routes so they can walk and cycle to school with their friends. Am I correct that there are a few cycle lanes in Carlow but that they are disconnected? The witnesses suggested practical solutions such as using the wide footpaths. Could they tell us more about that idea?

Ms Zena Deyassa:

Some footpaths are very slim and sadly cannot be turned into dual footpaths. A good few footpaths are quite wide and could be split in half for pedestrians and cyclists. That would be safer. It is on a curb, so cyclists do not have to be right beside trucks and cars. Cycle lanes ending abruptly is a significant issue. The new protected bike lanes are a great addition but it is frustrating that they end abruptly at roundabouts, which are the most dangerous point. That could be worked on. I was in another country, where the lane was not protected, but there was a spot for cyclists, which was great. It is just paint to show where cyclists are. It is a simple and easy fix.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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Dulcie and Rachel spoke about the importance of having more art on the streets. Art can help to brighten a place up and make it feel more welcoming. I was delighted that they had some examples from Cork. As part of the arts festival in Skibbereen, we hire an artist to produce murals to make the town livelier and more colourful. I love the Waterford walls, which are famous now for being so amazing. Have the witnesses identified walls and other spaces that could be used for public art in Carlow? Do they have suggestions for the type of paintings they would like to see?

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

They could be cultural. They could be about famous people from Carlow, like Saoirse Ronan. There are many blank walls. Even if they have windows on them, one can paint around the windows. There was a wall opposite Fairgreen. I do not know exactly how to explain where it is. It had tacky fake windows put up on it. Instead of doing that, the wall could have been painted. Windows with fake dogs were put up instead, which is funny, but not the most pleasant thing.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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I have a final question for anyone who wants to answer it. What was the witnesses' favourite part of doing the project?

Mr. Aidan Gammell:

Getting to go to school when nobody else was there to work on something we are passionate about with our friends.

Ms Diana Nicolcea:

Coming here with all my friends, because I never thought I would do that. It is an honour to be here and to meet everybody like this, especially since Covid came a few years ago. It is an honour to be here.

Ms Lily Cserni:

It was good to do a project with my friends. I enjoyed everything we did together.

Coming here with is very exciting because I have been waiting for this day for a long time.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

I graduated with a few of my classmates in June so it is nice to see some of our classmates work on a project we did from last year.

Ms Grace Kavanagh:

It was fun getting to come in and do research not just on a computer but also through walking and cycling around town, being able to come in here and as was said at the graduation, getting to see our old classmates because we have not seen any of them since June.

Ms Heidi Dowling:

We did some work on this even at the end of fourth class and fifth class. We are at a point when we are heard. We talked to many people. It is not really the same because we were only talking to few of the Deputies. We have got to a point where we can voice our opinions on this.

Ms Diana Nicolcea:

This goes back to a few questions asked before about how cycle lanes came to abrupt stop at some roundabouts. We were cycling and went to a roundabout. It was really dangerous because of all the cars coming in. We should protect them so the cars are not so close to cyclists, they do not crash and nobody gets hurt.

Ms Lily Cserni:

This is in response to Deputy Costello's question. I have two ideas for Tullow Street. On one side, there is a path and car parking spaces, and there is a very narrow road for two cars to pass. With regard to the one close to the path where everyone walks and there are no cars at all, they overtake and are really close to us and we do not have that much space. There is a path around the courthouse where it is too narrow. If there is a mother with a buggy, we have to go on to the road with 32 children on the road and pass them to get back on to the path.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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Well done to everyone. It is so great to have them here. Fair play to their teachers.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Deputy Cairns's point about common sense. I think we all agree with it. I often find myself saying in the Dáil that there is a lack of common sense. All the suggestions by the witnesses have been so good.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The witnesses are very welcome to Leinster House. I am delighted to see them. I am sorry to have missed the earlier part of the meeting because like Deputy Costello, I was at another meeting. My oldest sister was at one of the meetings and she is so bossy. It is so good that this is not being recorded or broadcast. Is that not right?

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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So now I am in big trouble. My big sister's name is Marie. I am sorry, Marie. Naming her publicly should get me out of trouble. I have a few questions and for the last one, I want a show of hands. Deputy Murnane O'Connor, who represents Carlow-Kilkenny, told me at one of these meetings a couple of weeks ago that the train station in Carlow is not accessible and, therefore, people with disabilities cannot use it. If someone was told he or she could not use the train station because of his or her ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation, people would quite rightly protest and a big deal would be made of it but because it is not accessible to people with disabilities, the powers-that-be - Irish Rail, Transport for Ireland and the Government - seem to accept this. Why do the witnesses think that is? Why do they think we accept discrimination against people with disabilities so casually?

Deputy Tully, who is a member of this committee, told me that the people who are left on waiting lists for housing are people with disabilities. Again, if someone was denied access to housing on the basis of ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation, people would quite rightly be very angry but when it comes to people with disabilities, who make up 27% of homeless people, the powers-that-be seem to accept it. Why do the witnesses think that is? Why is it okay for people with disabilities to be discriminated against?

The witnesses have given us loads of common-sense recommendations for different problems. What should we do about that? Is there anything we can do about it? They have been here and to a certain extent seen what we do. The last bit is a show of hands. The Chair will organise this. How many of the witnesses would like to come and work here either as a Senator or a Deputy?

Ms Zena Deyassa:

In response to the first question about discrimination towards people with disabilities, I believe it is because there is a lack of representation in the media and here. You never really see it and people are not shown and when they are shown, it can be stereotyped. People think about physical disabilities but not about mental disabilities. I do not have a disability so I cannot speak for people with disabilities but the best way to combat is more representation and get the opinion of people with disabilities because my opinion does not mean a whole lot. The committee should talk to someone with a disability about that.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is an excellent answer.

Ms Grace Kavanagh:

The reason people discriminate against people with disabilities so casually is some of them assume they do not have a voice of their own. Some people might think they cannot speak for themselves so nobody gives them a chance. If people gave them a chance, great things would come from it. The best way to tackle this is letting them have a chance to speak because a lot of people ignore them and do not give them a chance to speak. Giving them a chance to speak would be one of the best ways to tackle it.

Ms Dulcie Corbett:

If they have a hidden disability or a disability such as Tourette's syndrome, it can be quite dangerous for them. I do not have a disability so I cannot speak for them. It may be dangerous for them sometimes. Someone in a wheelchair cannot get up stairs. He or she needs a ramp and that takes a lot more time and effort from the Government. That may be a reason, which is not a good reason, but it is a reason.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get a show of hands on Senator Clonan's question about who would like to be in here one day as a Deputy or Senator? Do not all jump in. We have one maybe - one person who is thinking about it. It is just out of interest. I promise I am not going to force them to do it.

I heard one person say maybe, and I hope others will think about politics as a career.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The students are all well qualified for the job.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the delegation for their thought-provoking answers.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

I thank the Chair for inviting us. This class group has got a huge amount from this project.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is good.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

The group learned a lot, even from the build-up through conversations and teasing things out. As I said in my opening speech, the project gave the children a sense of responsibility and engagement about the things that are going on in the world around them. I say that because sometimes we, as adults, do not give young people enough credit.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Mark O'Brien:

Adults do not tend to listen to the opinions of young people, discount them or pat them on the head and tell them they are doing a good job without valuing what they say, but I think they have a huge contribution to make to the way we do things both from the perspectives of the school and broader society. I congratulate the children primarily for seeing this project through to the end because it was a pretty long project. We met in the evenings in school and the children put a lot of time and effort into preparing presentations and doing the work online. I am very proud of them and as a bunch they did a great job.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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We, as a committee, will follow up on the points raised. I got to see the presentation twice because I also attended the event in Carlow. Part of it was the local authority but a lot of it comes from the Department. The fact the group came in and made a presentation in a public forum gives us the power to look into the matter further. We have had an excellent meeting today and I believe this has been our best meeting of the year because it is great to engage directly with young people, and that is our remit on this committee. I say well done to the teachers for pursuing this project, sticking with it and being powerful advocates, which is an important element too. One does not always get such advocacy and it is very important.

This is our final meeting of the year so I thank all of the committee members. I also thank all of the staff of the committee who make everything happen, so much so that I simply show up and read lines, which makes my life very easy. I wish a very sincere thanks to everyone who does all of the hard work in the background. I thank all of the delegation for attending. I wish everybody a happy Christmas.

Finally, I need to get agreement to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.