Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I have tried to respond to the committee's concerns during pre-legislative scrutiny and the Second Stage debate. The committee has identified a major concern here. I acknowledge that in any employment, seasonal or non-seasonal, we have to have protections in place for employees. That is what we do. The committee members are the ones highlighting this as a concern so we are going beyond that to try to work with them on this and allay their concerns. I am concerned for all employees. I have to be, and I have to make sure protections are in place in the legislation. I believe they are there. We want to put people in no doubt about seasonal permits and we will go beyond that because it is something the committee is flagging as an area of concern.

Regarding the numbers needed, we do not look at any sector and predict what the numbers will be in three years' time. What we are trying to do with this legislation is make it more flexible, so we are able to respond to requirements in the years ahead. That was the ask of the 2018 report. Part of that response is having the option for a seasonal permit. That then has to be earned by a +

sector or an industry. They have to prove their case. We try to do reviews twice a year if we can. Other years it is once a year. We analyse the sectors that are under pressure for available talent and people, whatever the sector is. It could be nursing homes, hospitals or horticulture. Each time, there is an analysis of that sector to back up the arguments. The parent Department, whether it is involved in transport, agriculture or health, also has to back that up. We are involved in a number of interdepartmental groups. The team here does not make a decision on a whim. It is based on evidence. I am not saying what sectors will get these permits or how many are needed. They have to come forward. The option will be in the legislation to allow for a seasonal permit but clearly there are certain sectors that involve seasonal work. That is normal in many countries and it is normal here too. Sectors come to us.

The fact that permit numbers have jumped so much in the last few years shows the demand for talent. We have to respond that in different ways. Clearly, the best way is to invest in education and skills development in the long term to deal with these availability shortages locally and with people living in the country already, for all the benefits that will bring. However, in some cases there is a gap and businesses cannot service their own markets or cannot grow and expand because of the shortage of people. The permit system is there to respond to that, either where there is a shortage of people in some sectors or a shortage of a particular skill in another area. We try to analyse that and base the decision on evidence. That will continue with seasonal permits and non-seasonal permits. That is the system. A labour market assessment is part of all applications and certainly will be for seasonal workers as well. Sectors have to show that there is a need for this. We are allowing for it in the legislation and regulations but I am not saying one sector will automatically get these tomorrow. That is not the way it is going to work. That is not the way it works now. We are trying to make the system as flexible as we possibly can so the guys around me can do their job and respond in a timely manner so we do not get into a situation where there is a six-month waiting list for permits in a sector that needs workers badly. It could be in the public sector.