Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No apologies have been received. This meeting is to consider a Supplementary Estimate for Public Services for Vote 31 - Department of Transport. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton and her officials to the meeting. We only received the Estimates and the briefing details at 11 a.m. today. We will proceed with the meeting but we reserve the right as a committee to raise this with the Minister of State herself and the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. They are due in before us on 7 December on the aviation strategy. We want to proceed but because the information has come so late, we may decide that we do not have sufficient consideration of the data to make a decision on it after this meeting. We will see how the meeting goes but this is to put the Minister of State and her officials on notice that it is a matter that we may return to when they are in before us on 7 December.

We are considering the Supplementary Estimate today. Regrettably, we only received them at 11 a.m., which was two hours before this meeting. We had expected to receive them at 12 noon on Monday. That may have not been expressly in the invitation but that would be deemed to be the protocol. The Supplementary Estimate is for €114 million. That is a lot of taxpayer money. We are putting on notice that we may, as a committee, decide after this meeting that we need further time. If there is further time needed, we will deal with that when the Department is due before us on 7 December. That is more than within the timeframe required, which is within 60 days of a notice. That means within just over the next two weeks.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and her officials to the meeting today. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identified person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I call the Minister of State.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and the committee for this opportunity to present details of this Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Transport on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. The Supplementary Estimate is a substantive Estimate, voting additional funds to the Department. In total, €114.861 million in current expenditure will be allocated.

A shortfall is forecast in the public transport public service obligation, PSO. The potential shortfall is an issue that has been monitored carefully since the start of 2022. In March, an average fare discount of 20% was applied to public transport fares. The NewEra report, published on 5 May forecast a deficit including 20% discount and the introduction of the young adult card, of circa €154 million. Due to more rapid recovery in passenger numbers than forecast, which were partly spurred by the incentive of the discount, the forecast deficit has fallen. Some €9 million has been vired from savings in the aviation travel package and travel tour operator funds, to reduce the net requirement to €82.515 million.

As stated, passenger numbers have steadily recovered on most networks. However, the introduction of the discount, the 90-minute fare and the move of passenger traffic from cash fares to more competitive Leap card fares, mean that fare recovery patterns post-Covid are taking a different shape to pre-Covid patterns. In addition, €8 million will be allocated to PSO to support the roll-out of the young adult card to commercial bus operators, following its extension to this sector in September. This will assist in ensuring a level playing field in the bus operator market in the provision of discounts.

A total of €2 million will be allocated to rural transport services. The provision of emergency public transport services is mainly focused on improving connectivity for Ukrainian refugees housed in remote parts of Ireland. On 21 April 2022, the Minister for Transport announced that the Department of Transport and the NTA would be providing emergency public transport services to Ukrainian refugees housed in isolated locations across Ireland. This is being implemented via a three-pronged approach: acceleration of elements of the Connecting Ireland plan; additional services, routes and trips; and a once-off community transport fund, managed by the 15 LocalLink offices.

In March, the Government approved a licensed haulage emergency support scheme to assist the licensed haulage sector to address high fuel costs arising from the Ukraine crisis. Supports totalling €15.654 million were paid out through the scheme. It was a temporary, targeted measure for the licensed haulage sector, taking into account the sector’s national strategic importance in enabling a functioning economy. The Government recognised that fuel represents up to 40% of cost inputs for road haulage operators. The sector is highly exposed to fuel price fluctuations and is more limited than others in its ability to absorb such cost shocks. In that regard there is ongoing engagement on another haulier support scheme the details of which will be announced shortly.

An additional €1 million will be allocated to the Department’s driver licence and computer services division, based in Shannon, which manages the national vehicle driver file. This is to cover the increased cost of postal charges, banking charges, customised envelopes and licensing costs for the national vehicle driver file.

A total of €2.092 million will be allocated to address a matured liability arising from the 2021 liquidation of Stobart Air. Stobart Air contacted the Department on 12 June 2021 to advise that its plans to secure a new buyer had failed. This action resulted in Stobart Air commencing a process of voluntary liquidation. This had implications for the PSO contract, with PSO services on both the Donegal and Kerry routes immediately ceasing. A court order dated 5 July 2021 appointed liquidators for Stobart Air Unlimited Company. The Department engaged extensively with the liquidators in resolving the outstanding issues with the airline’s overdue audited accounts. These issues were finally resolved by the liquidators in quarter 2 of 2022 resulting in outstanding payments totalling €2.092 million being made by the Department to Stobart Air Unlimited Company during June and July 2022.

A total of €3.6 million will be allocated to the Coast Guard, the bulk of which relates to contractual and cost increases. Additional safety training costs were also incurred.

I am now happy to take any questions that the members may have.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for appearing before the committee. The allocation on programme C for the haulier support scheme is for the current scheme. The Department is involved in negotiations and hopes to agree another scheme. Does the Minister of State expect to be back before the end of the year with a further Supplementary Estimate for the new scheme?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We are currently working on a scheme to support hauliers to be announced shortly. The war in Ukraine has resulted in cost implications for fuel for our haulage sector on which we rely greatly to ensure our supply chain is moving throughout the country. The details of the scheme are being worked out and it will be announced before Christmas. There has been extensive consultation with the Irish Road Haulage Association, IHRA, on that. It will be a 2023 scheme.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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So, it will be next year.

There is something significant with programme B. We have had discussions with the NTA on the relationship between price and demand. When fares on public transport are reduced, what is the impact on demand? Here is proof positive that the State's best estimate was out by a large factor. The uptake has been positive. It would be appropriate to watch it over time. The same sort of benefit might not be achieved if we went further. Representatives of the NTA gave international examples which argue against further price decreases because they say we might not get the return on it. However, there is empirical evidence on this effort in Ireland which is useful and supports the case that if the services are provided at an affordable price, people will use them. That is an important point.

The Minister of State mentioned the acceleration of elements of the Connecting Ireland plan. What elements of that are involved? I previously spoke to her about multi-annual budgeting for Connecting Ireland. Are we any closer to agreeing that? Where do things stand on that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for his comments on public transport. I agree on the success of the 50% reduction for full-time students and young adults, defined as the cohort between 19 and 23, to be able to avail of public transport. It is now also being extended to those aged 16, 17 and 18 who are in third level education. We see the uptake of people taking public transport which is what we want them to do. We want to encourage people to get out of their cars and take public transport. The way we do that is to make it more affordable for them. I absolutely agree that this is evidence of the value of making it affordable certainly for younger people and anyone who wants to use public transport.

Connecting Ireland involves the roll-out of public transport to ensure we have connectivity between towns and villages across the country. Some 85 Connecting Ireland services have been able to make improvements on foot of this supplementary funding. More generally, the NTA has also introduced 25 new enhanced services. There was a public consultation on this throughout the country. We want to continue to encourage communities to identify areas where there is a demand for rural public transport services if we are to encourage people to get out of the car and use public transport where possible. The engagement will continue on the roll-out of that. I also welcome the committee's work on that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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While I know the Minister of State is here to discuss this Supplementary Estimate, I wish to ask her about redirecting funds that seem to be unspent at this stage. On subheads B43, new services for new PSO routes, and B44, new Connecting Ireland services, there appears to have been quite a paltry spend by the end of quarter 3 of 2022 relative to the Revised Estimates. Will a significant part of that spend be in quarter 4 or how is that explained?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It will move out into a quarter 4. I have a list here if the Deputy would like me two provide a breakdown of the 25 extra NTA services.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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If the Minister of State could send that to the committee, it would be helpful.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It names all the new and enhanced services and will go out in the next quarter.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to the multiannual budgeting for Connecting Ireland.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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A business case will shortly be brought to the Government regarding that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. My next question concerns regional airports. There is an allocation of €7.75 million under programme D for capital expenditure, but it has not been spent. Is there a plan to invest that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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A portion of the capital expenditure will be spent this quarter and there will be carryover into next year. The regional airports' operational funding is currently under consideration and will be announced before Christmas.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I have a similar question on capital expenditure in programme E3. Does it relate to maritime services and the Coast Guard? We have spoken about capital programmes and new buildings. There seems to be an allocation of €9.1 million, but €1.3 million had been spent by the end of quarter 3. What explains that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That relates to Bunmahon, which will commence in quarter 1 of 2023.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State. There has been a lot of discussion on the proposed increase in tolls. We have heard discussions are ongoing at party leader level. Are discussions taking place in the Department? Is it looking for ways to offset the increases or ensure they do not go ahead? If that is the case, what is the timeline for a decision? Will the Minister of State come before the committee again before the end of the year with a supplementary contribution? Can she give us any update on that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. At the moment, leaders are engaging with TII on this. We are not happy about the timing, in particular given the cost-of-living crisis. Engagement with TII is under way to determine what can be done to ensure we are not increasing costs for commuters, people travelling to work or college or the hauliers who use our motorways. Everything is on the table to try to see what can happen. In terms of timing, we want things to happen as soon as possible. Discussions are under way.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have the authority to instruct TII regarding tolls? Are there constraints?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is an independent decision by TII. As the Deputy knows, there are eight PPPs across the country, as well as the M50 and the tunnel. There are contractual issues. There is concern in government around the timing of this and the effect it will have on commuters, in particular, after a budget of €11 billion to try to help every sector from businesses to households with the rising cost of fuel and living. We have to ensure we do something to ensure these costs are not incurred. Conversations and engagements are happening. It is complex because there are many different contracts. Many roads have not been paid for and there are contracts relating to them out to 2030. Different motorways and roads are at different stages in the process. These are the issues that are being teased out.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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A solution is required for what is a complex area, in terms of deferring or alleviating the impact of the proposed increase.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The options are being explored.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I understand TII will come before the committee next week.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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From the tone of the Minister of State and the content of her replies, I understand she wants the increases to be deferred. Is that correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Discussions are ongoing between the three leaders and TII. Political discussions are happening.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Of the three leaders, who has met TII at this stage?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am not part of those discussions. From the point of view of the Government, there will be discussions around what can happen and ensuring we are not incurring extra costs.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has there been open dialogue between the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and TII?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There has been engagement between TII and the Department on this. Leaders are aware of some of the information around costs. It is hard to get figures. The implications need to be teased out.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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At this point, has the Government met TII?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know about individual meetings that have taken place. There is information in the Department of Transport on this because there has been engagement between TII and the Department of Transport. There is a commitment from the Government to do something on this and see what can be done in order to minimise costs for commuters.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State will appreciate that TII will come before us. We asked it to come before the committee immediately after the announcement was made. It has agreed to meet us and will come before the committee on Tuesday, 29 November. Based on the outcome, as a committee we may decide that we need further engagement with the Minister and Department.

The Minister of State spoke about timing. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to know that imposing extra charges on motorists at a time when fuel costs and the cost of living are putting pressure on people does not make sense. One would have to question how this arose. As a committee, we will take up the matter next Tuesday and follow up on it thereafter, depending on our interaction with TII.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State and her team. I hope the Minister of State does not mind me asking who is on her team. It is a genuine question. We have had a lot of online sessions. This is only the second face-to-face meeting. I would like to know the names of everyone in the room.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Can people introduce themselves?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is protocol. I am conscious-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a curveball question. It is just-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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My officials are here-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They are here in their capacity as officials. I will not ask them to make their names known. If they would like to do so that is up to them, but it is not a requirement.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Officials are here representing the haulage, finance, public transport and aviation divisions.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They are from all sectors.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. I am trying to join the dots.

What was emailed to us this morning concerned several elements. It included the Minister of State's speech, which had a lot of content, and tables. I will hone in on the tables. Reference was made to public service obligations, PSOs. There was a budget heading of €23.8 million. I want to drill down on that figure. Last week four members of the committee travelled to the Netherlands to examine a range of issues in terms of how it grapples with public transport, cycling and, most important, aviation policy. There is an application before the Department from the Shannon Airport group to have a PSO operate between Shannon Airport and Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam. That is all the more important since Brexit. We in Shannon and the west of Ireland feel quite peripheral, and I think the Minister of State, who is from Galway, understands that. We are quite remote now, in terms of motherland Europe. What is the position regarding the PSO? Is it provided for in the headings or have I misread that? How will it be progressed? Will it ultimately go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There is a request from Shannon Airport for the establishment of a PSO to provide connectivity between it and an EU hub. That is under consideration by the Department. Last week, I announced a mid-term review of the regional airports programme, as I want to give an opportunity for aviation stakeholders such as airports and this committee, which is interested in this space, to feed into an issues paper. That paper will form the questions in a public consultation process on the review of the regional airports programme. The paper will cover what issues we want people to explore.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Forgive me, but the clock keeps ticking down.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will show flexibility.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Comments can be made on local media. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, was doorstepped a few weeks ago with a question on a PSO for Shannon Airport, to which he replied it might not happen. What is the Minister of State's perspective on the PSO application? Is it about to leave her Department positively and move to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, is it floundering or are alternatives being considered? We would love to know its status.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We see the figures for Dublin Airport. They are going to grow exponentially. We all agree that we need Dublin Airport to succeed, but we all want to boost traffic through our regional airports and to examine ways of doing so. Through the mid-term review of the regional airports programme, I want feedback for the consultation process, which I hope to start in quarter 1 of next year through the issues paper.

The PSO application is under consideration within the Department. The current policy is on domestic PSO routes into, for example, Donegal and Kerry. It provides PSOs for remote and isolated areas. There is a PSO between Donegal and Dublin. There was another between Dublin and Kerry, but Ryanair stepped in and said that it did not need a PSO and could run the route on a commercial basis. That is the direction I want all of our airports to be able to work towards, including Shannon.

My door is open in terms of what is required to drive more traffic through our regional airports. It is through the mid-term review of the regional aviation policy that we can open the debate up to more than just airports, for example, chambers of commerce. I met Limerick Chamber last week. Through the review, we can talk to our tourism industry and the Irish Hotels Federation to get their views on how to redirect traffic into the regions. People will have the opportunity to feed into the review between now and the end of December. This committee has done a great deal of work in this regard and plans to do more. By the time the public consultation process opens, people will have fed into the issues paper-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is that separate to the national aviation policy review?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is based on the regional airports programme and will consider what we can do to expand and improve it. It is about getting feedback from various stakeholders and thinking differently about how we use our airports.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to pre-empt what could be a positive process, but it should not lead to a two-tier aviation policy, if the Minister of State will pardon the expression, where national aviation policy deals with Dublin while the regional airports programme deals with other airports. I would like the two to run concurrently. There is merit in what she is doing and we need to develop a growth strategy for all of these airports. Some of us have a particular bias towards Shannon, but we need to consider the other airports that are lagging behind. We all accept that they will not catch up with Dublin, but there needs to be a strategy to grow them.

I will move on with my questioning.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I seek clarification on the national aviation policy review and an important point that Deputy Crowe made. While we welcome the review of the regional airports programme, we also want to feed into the national aviation policy review. When will it get under way?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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And when will it end?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the regional programme, when will the Government put a positions paper out for public consultation? What is the timescale for both?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the national aviation policy, the Department is reviewing how best to move forward. Coming out of Covid, we are in a new landscape in terms of passenger travel and how business people conduct their business. We have a new vista before us. We could not have reviewed the national aviation policy in the middle of a global pandemic, and the review was put on hold because international travel effectively shut down. Obviously, the national aviation policy will cover the whole country, but I want to do the mid-term review of the regional airports programme first because it focuses on the regions and on the importance of having regional balance. From my engagement with the committee,-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State needs to give us dates. We know all of this.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is why I am doing the regional-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Give us dates. Give us a timescale.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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May I finish, Chairman?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State needs to give us the timescale.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I have done so, but I will repeat what I said. The window to feed into the issues paper lasts until 31 December. That paper will form part of the public consultation, which will start in quarter 1 of next year. The committee will want to hold hearings on the matter and, therefore, we could consider the timing. Once the consultation process is open, I envisage it lasting for six to eight weeks to give people time to feed into it and to get stakeholders with an interest in the matter to think again about how we can best use Shannon Airport, Cork Airport, Ireland West Airport Knock, Donegal Airport and other regional airports and redirect traffic.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There is a bit of a panic about this. When we discuss aviation, we are all guilty of thinking about airlines and airports and forgetting about leasing, drones and aviation's other subsectors. I met representatives of some of them yesterday. They are in a bit of a panic. The policy review will get under way in a few weeks and could conclude in the spring, leading to a flurry of activity in trying to get information to the Department and the committee. When will the national aviation policy review conclude and be ratified? Knowing the end point would be welcome. It might move, which happens in public life and is acceptable, but people need to know because they are somewhat at panic stations at the moment.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Department is considering how best to proceed on the national aviation policy. A focus of this committee, and rightly so, has been on ensuring that we have traffic coming into the regions via our regional airports, that we get the best value out of them and that they survive. This is why I first want to focus on the review of the regional airports programme. The work on the national aviation policy might happen in tandem with that. I want to have the issues paper completed by the end of December. In quarter 1 of next year, there will be a public consultation process for six to eight weeks. People will feed into the issues paper and the consultation process, which will give us a better picture of where aviation stands next year.

I met the CEOs of many airlines over the summer and asked them to do some crystal ball gazing. If we are to have a national aviation policy, we need to know where aviation stands, how people are travelling and how their work practices have changed, which has an impact on aviation. The airlines were unsure, particularly about the business traveller. Those meetings were held three or four months ago, though, and I want the most up-to-date information, which is why I am asking chambers of commerce, multinationals, hotels, the tourism industry, investors and potential investors what connectivity they need in the regions.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister of State tell us what the dates are as they become clearer?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I should have said that the Department and I will keep the committee up to speed on timings around the consultation process, the national aviation policy, etc., since I know that the committee wishes to hold hearings on these matters. We will provide updates so that there are no surprises around dates.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On Friday, Clare County Council will have its annual budgetary meeting. Its budgetary year does not align fully with the Government's budgetary year because local authorities and the Government have different budgetary years. Clare County Council is facing into 2023 not knowing whether it will be the custodian of the Shannon Heritage sites. This matter is a large component of the Minister of State's Department. It is the Government's wish, as agreed in the summer of 2020, that the sites transfer to local authorities. Is this accounted for in the 2023 Estimates and what can the Minister of State tell us about a funding mechanism to allow the transfer to happen successfully?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is correct in that it is a priority for the Government to ensure the transfer happens as quickly as possible.

A huge amount of work has been done on this in the Department of Transport working with the Departments of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and Housing, Local Government and Heritage to secure that transfer. I do not need to tell the Members that it is complex; they will be well aware of the transfer of lands, assets, issues around debt and so on. Engagement is ongoing between my Department and Clare County Council on this. I think they met last week. I have had conversations with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath on ensuring we get this over the line because this is critical for the future of these heritage sites.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There are time lines though?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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All soon as possible.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Like all of us, the Minister of State was a local authority member. They are facing into a budget without knowing what they are planning for. This, if it happens, could account for one third of all expenditure in County Clare. They do not know if they will have it or not next year. There needs to be some certainty. I respect that multiple Departments are involved here but none of the Ministers that were mentioned, including the Minister of State, has given a timeline and it is devastating for the workers. It is also devastating for the other stakeholders who are waiting for this to happen and wondering if it will ever happen.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This is critical for the long-term viability of those heritage sites. I am probably as frustrated as the Deputy sometimes with the pace of this but every effort is happening across government, between the Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Public Expenditure and Reform and, certainly, Transport, which was the lead on this. We realise the importance of this transferring. I do not have a date but I can say that everything will happen as soon as possible. There have been high-level meetings at ministerial level as well as engagement with Clare County Council. Everything has been thrown at this to get it over the line.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will conclude with a few comments rather than questions. The Minister of State needs to have some oversight over TII and the NTA. They are very tricky for us, as elected representatives, to deal with. They are faceless. Half the time, we do not know who we are dealing with. We cannot get answers from them. It is a level of quangoism that came in some years ago with the HSE. There used to be linear management in Departments but now it goes Minister to quango and back again with local authorities fitting in somewhere. I ask that the contact person in the Department goes to the TII and the NTA to check in with them. Their communications with elected representatives are malfunctioning.

Finally, there is a road safely subhead. Local authority members are frustrated that speed limit reviews are locked into five-year cycles. You can throw all the money at flashing signage and safety campaigns but an age-old instrument to secure some level of road safety has been the speed limit signs. They have been around since the foundation of the State. There was a time local authority members could go into a meeting and by resolution, and with engineering and Garda agreement, instate a new speed limit. That is now tied into five-year cycles. It is not good enough and it does not have the flexibility for situations that happen each year.

Those are some comments that the Minister of State might digest. I thank her for everything. We would love to hear dates the next day for when some of these measures will happen.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Deputy that everything is being progressed as quickly as possible. I would love to give him a date but particularly in relation to Shannon Heritage, a huge amount of work is happening behind the scenes.

I will relay those points on the NTA and TII to the Minister. It is under his remit in the Department. I do take the Deputy's points.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Before going to the next speaker, I welcome Mulcair Men's Shed here with my fellow-Limerick representative Councillor Michael Murphy from Castleconnell. Mulcair Men's Shed is from various areas of east Limerick.

Deputy Carey is next and he has ten minutes. I will be flexible.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the men from the men's shed and Councillor Murphy. An issue that he will be concerned about is Shannon Airport. I welcome the Minister of State's intention to review the regional airports programme. For the first time this year, Shannon received €4.3 million in April. It has made good use of that money. It invested in three new air bridges and a new security system, which is state of the art. Passengers can bring liquids, laptops and all that stuff through the airport. It is a much better experience than going through Dublin, for example. There are fewer queues and it is more passenger friendly. I have questioned the Minister of State on this at the committee previously and at meetings of the Fine Gael parliamentary party several times. The fundamental flaw is that the Government regards airports with passenger numbers in excess of 1 million as ineligible for the regional airports programme. I do not know if it is a good thing but Shannon will get in next year because it is under 1 million while Cork will not. In other European states, it is 3 million. It is allowed under state aid rules. We are having this review, which is welcome, but we will end up in a position where the Minister of State, or whoever is in office next year after a reshuffle or whatever, will be looking at that question. Is she in favour of changing the figure here from 1 million to 3 million?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This is the exact reason I wanted to have that mid-term review of the regional airports programme so that those exact points of view can be put forward and feed into this issues paper, which will form part of the consultation process. Yes, we need to look at our regional airports programme as it functions in this new world we are now in and -----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister of State in favour of increasing it to 3 million?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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My door is open. I will not make up policy on the hoof here but we do need to make sure there is a rebalancing of air traffic going into the regions. I am open about how that is done. The issues paper will lay out the terms for the public consultation. By feeding into what needs to be asked as part of that public consultation on the regional airports programme, it will give the committee, the people the Deputy engages with and our regional airports the input into issues such as whether we need to increase the threshold to 3 million and then we need to talk to the stakeholders in the region around why that needs to be the case. It is not just the airports and politicians but also the multinationals, the hotel industry and all the other stakeholders in the regions who can make the case. That is exactly why I want to focus on the regional airports programme first.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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On timelines, we are looking at the first quarter for consultation. When might there be a decision?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The consultation will take six to eight weeks. We would not start the consultation on 1 January, for example. We would go into the month of January and also give the committee time to hold hearings on the issues paper, if it wants to.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a public call for submissions for the position paper and when will that go out?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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People can do that now.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a public call on the website?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I was on the media over the weekend. There is an email address, airportsdivision@transport.gov.ie, to which people can email their ideas.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Department or the Minister of State through the Department should put a public call on the website to let people know that this position paper is under way. I also suggest 31 December is too soon a deadline. We are coming up to the Christmas period. I would have thought that should be 31 January. The Minister of State not talking about going out to public consultation until the first quarter. That could be 31 March. We need to get this right. It is important that we get huge buy-in. While I welcome that the review of the programme is under way, there must be a process. I suggest the Minister of State puts something formal on the website and I hope that she will extend the deadline. If Christmas is taken out, 31 December means we are only really talking about two weeks and that is too short. If the Minister of State went to 31 January it would give people, including us as a committee, adequate time, before the formal public consultation. I assume the position paper will inform the terms of reference. When the public consultation starts, the Minister of State will have set the terms of reference.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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She will be aware that is the key here. I am worried that 31 December is very tight.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We can look into that. I am aware the committee wants to hold hearings and feed into this. I do not want to rush it; I want it to be meaningful.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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A month is very little time. A deadline of 31 January would be infinitely more manageable for the public than 31 December. A period from 15 December or 16 December, which is only a little over two weeks away, is too short.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will take those points on board.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Those were fair comments.

There was a commitment to review national aviation policy. It has been put off in the past two years. Will it happen at all?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It will.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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When?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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On the timing, the Department is looking into how best to proceed. I would like to start with the regional airports programme because the glaring issue for Ireland is the regions. We saw that during the summer.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely, but the two are intertwined.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What we have is a big juggernaut in Dublin, with 33 million passengers. The rest are feeding off the crumbs. The Minister of State is saying that herself, which is welcome, but the two are interlinked and do not work in isolation. It is not down to the programme alone. The national aviation policy is the overarching policy. It is in this that the figure of 1 million passengers is included. That precludes us. It has to be reviewed also, maybe in parallel. Maybe the Minister of State will consider this. There is confusion.

I welcome the Minister of State’s announcement on Saturday. It is also welcome that she is here today. Fundamental reform is long overdue. The critical objective is to enable airports such as Shannon to have a level playing field. We do not have one because all roads lead to Dublin. The first time we got a few bob was this year. We made good use of it.

Committee members were in Rotterdam Airport last week. We could see its investment in renewables. A whole apron of the airport is covered in solar panels, of all things. These provide the electricity in the airport. All the airport vehicles are electric; they have transitioned. The excess electricity is being fed back into the grid. The airport uses about one third of what it generates. There is no reason Shannon Airport could not do this. I welcome the fact that it has signed a memorandum of understanding with the ESB on the development of a hydrogen facility at a location in or around the airport. Therefore, it is getting into that space. The regional airports programme could support Shannon even further in this regard, so it really does make sense.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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On that exact point, we have introduced a new eligibility criterion whereby airports get funding, under the regional airports programme, for sustainability projects, including those related to electric vehicles, fire engines and emissions reduction. All that is part of it. This will all feed into a new regional airports programme and, therefore, there are sustainability objectives. This is where we need to be moving. I agree with the Deputy in that regard.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I receive considerable correspondence from people waiting for a driving test. Two cases come to mind. One lady, who works in a doctor’s surgery, has been waiting for 21 weeks. She has to get public transport from Bunratty to Ennis every day. It is scandalous. Another lady, who runs her own business, has to get a taxi to the premises every day from Clarecastle. She has been waiting 16 weeks for a driving test. It is outrageous that these young people are being held back in what they want to do.

Representatives of the Road Safety Authority, RSA, were here a few weeks ago and I just did not get what they were saying. There was an opportunity to keep in employment 37 trained testers who were in the system but who, for whatever reason, had only temporary contracts. The RSA would not make them permanent. I understand they were given an opportunity to enter an open competition. Given the problems we have, with 180,000 people waiting for a test, including the two individuals I mentioned, how are we supposed to function?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I have had regular meetings with the RSA on this. We all know about the backlog owing to Covid. Everything needs to be done by the RSA to ensure it is recruiting driving testers. It has to have an open procurement process because it is part of EU law.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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More testers are needed. This cannot go on forever. Covid has been gone for months. We need to cut the waiting lists. I am not hearing about this. The problem is getting worse.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Considerable pressure is being put on the RSA by the Department and me to deal with the backlogs. There is a priority list whereby people can apply to get a driving test at shorter notice if under pressure. However, I too am unhappy about the backlog. The RSA is recruiting. We are in regular contact with the authority.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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How many new testers are there? What plans are there to employ more testers to cut the waiting list?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Earlier this year, the RSA conducted a review of the current needs of the driving test service. It recommended raising the number of permanent driver testers employed by it from 100 to 130. The Department approved that in June 2022, subject to the condition that the new testers would be recruited by open competition. The criterion on open competition is EU law. The recruitment process was conducted and offers were made to 30 people. We understand that most of them had been employed as temporary testers and, therefore, will not need further training. This cohort has been deployed across the national driving test service. The RSA indicates the remainder, likely to be fewer than five of the 30, will be taken on board and become operational by January 2023.

I realise what is happening is not good enough for those who need a driving test. The backlogs are a result of Covid, but the Department has asked the RSA to let it know what resources it needs. It is the authority’s role to ensure it has an adequate number of driver testers. Engagement is ongoing between my Department and the RSA to make sure the latter is meeting the demand of the public.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We need to be doing an awful lot more. We are letting people down. The Minister of State is responsible for the Government agency, so we need to hear what she is doing. The situation has worsened. It is just not good enough that young people are waiting for 16 or 21 weeks for a driving test in this day and age.

In her opening statement, the Minister of State referred to programme E, pertaining to maritime transport safety. A new Bill is proposed in this area, which is welcome, but it is based on the Clinch report, which was submitted to the Department in July 2021. A commitment was given by the Minister for Transport to publish that report. It is the third or fourth report on this matter. The funny thing is that none of the other reports was published either. Why is that the case? When will the Clinch report be published? It is important, if the committee is to carry out pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, that the report be published in an unredacted form, or in its original state, and that we get an opportunity to look at it. It is on the basis of the report’s recommendations that the new Bill is being drafted. It is important that Captain Clinch’s recommendations be implemented. Will the Minister of State ensure the report is published?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is under the remit of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. I am aware that he met the committee members on this matter and understand he will be going to the Government shortly with the report. I can refer him to the Deputy on this.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State ask him whether he will publish the Clinch report, and when?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will get the Deputy a date.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister of State revert to the committee?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I will get the Minister to revert to the committee directly.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does the Ennis bus route fall under the remit of the Minister of State?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No, it does not but the Deputy can ask the question and I can try to get the answer for him. If I cannot get it for him today, I will get back to him.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It has been spoken about for many years. It is at an advanced stage. The National Transport Authority, NTA, is looking at introducing a new bus service for Ennis. Some routes are being tested. It will go right through Ennis, from Clarecastle to Barefield. It is a really exciting time. This will tie in with many of the investments the Minister of State's Department is making around County Clare and Ennis with regard to active travel. It will tie it all together. I would like an update on that. Will the NTA commit funding to it? It is very important.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to the Deputy on that. Is that okay? It is the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan's side of the house.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Before we proceed, I welcome the group from Mulcair Men's Shed. It is a good group. It is the second group to have come in. Its headquarters are in Abington but it really covers all of east Limerick, right into the city. I welcome our visitors and hope they enjoy the proceedings. Many of us here, including me, Deputy Carey, Deputy Lowry and others, are from the mid-west.

I will take up one point with the Minister of State. The RSA looked for funding to increase the number of driver testers from 100 to 130 in June and the Minister of State gave her agreement. Was she aware that it was going to be letting more than 30 driver testers go between that time and August or September? The RSA was recently before the committee and we thought it was madness. Did it submit a request to the Minister of State to retain those experienced driver testers for a further period? The irony of this is that the RSA said that 100 testers was not enough and that it needed 130 but then let 30 of those 100 testers, who had been with the RSA for a number of years, go and went out to recruit. That means it had to recruit 60. Did it submit a request? We asked the RSA to make a request to the Department and the Minister of State to be allowed to rehire these experienced driver testers, of whom I believe there were 32. To go back to Deputy Carey's point, young people are waiting for testers. Has a request to rehire those 30 or 32 testers been made? The RSA publicly gave the committee a commitment that it would make such a request. Is she aware of this particular situation?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Chair referring to the open recruitment?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State said there that the RSA-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The RSA pushed those testers into an open competition. It would not take them on as permanent testers and made them apply again.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The point I am making is that the RSA came to the Minister of State in June 2022 to say that it needed 130 driver testers. It had 100 and within that 100 were more than 30 experienced driver testers who it let go only a month or two later. It made them reapply on the open market. It is madness. Did the RSA make a request to the Minister of State's Department to keep on these 30 plus experienced driving testers at that time? Has it done so since its recent appearance before this committee when it gave a commitment to make such a request of the Department? Has that happened?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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After considering the RSA's request, the Department gave its approval in June 2022, subject to the condition that the new testers were to be recruited as part of an open competition. Under EU law, they had to be recruited through an open competition.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are in a crisis.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I know but we have to adhere to EU law.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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With due respect, we were not asking for these people to be given permanent posts. We were asking for them to be rehired on a contract for a specified period of time to get through the backlog. There is chaos out there at the moment. Has the RSA come back to the Minister of State seeking to rehire these 30 people? If not, that means it has had to go to the open market to hire more than 60 people when there were 30 experienced people already in situ. You could not make it up. It is almost like a comedy show.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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I support the Chairman on this matter. We raised it with the RSA and made the point that these people were on long-term temporary contracts and so had experience and were understood to be capable and competent. Because we were effectively in an emergency situation with a very large backlog, it made sense to employ these people on permanent contracts. The process the Minister of State says had to be undertaken because of EU regulations means that we have lost 30 and are still waiting for the remainder to be interviewed and put in place. It made no sense to us for this to happen. The Chairman and I would have said that the ideal situation would be to give those testers extended contracts rather than employing them permanently. They would have been happy to stay in those circumstances. Like Deputy Carey and every other member of this committee, I am snowed under, inundated, with people looking for driving tests. The bottom line is that the RSA does not have enough driver testers.

There is also a massive discrepancy in the manner in which testers are carrying out their functions and duties. It is a known fact in some parts of the country that some testers are easier or more courteous than others. The whole system of testing needs to be examined and reviewed. It needs to be far more effective and there needs to be far more equality across the country with regard to the testers. From the feedback I get, it is clear to me that, when testers first arrive on the scene, they should be respectful and courteous and should understand that the people they are testing are mostly young people who need support and encouragement. They need to be dealt with in an appropriate way and, in many cases, that is not happening. If, in this day and age, young people are saying they have been offered a job but cannot take it because it entails travelling to work when they cannot get a driving test to get a licence, the Minister of State is going to have to intervene. The RSA seems to be running its own show. The Minister of State and her Department are responsible for the RSA. They need to follow up with it and make improvements in that sector.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will double-check whether the RSA came back to the Department in respect of the 30 testers following that open competition and revert to the committee on the issue. I acknowledge members' concerns. I am not here to defend the RSA in any shape or form. There are high-level meetings in which the Department and I put pressure on the RSA to ensure it can reduce the backlog. I commit to continuing to put pressure on in that regard. I will come back to the committee as to whether the RSA has come to the Department regarding those 30 testers.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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It would be helpful if the Minister of State could do that. Could she also chat with the RSA about another matter? We currently have a massive problem with the recruitment and retention of staff in every sector and the transport industry is no different. It has a massive problem with drivers. A great number of substantial transport, haulage and logistics companies have shortages of drivers. South Africa is a major place for recruitment. We have a lot of South Africans in the country at the moment. Some of them are here for nearly six months. They have to be paid by their employers while doing nothing because they cannot get their licences as a result of the convoluted system of the RSA. It really is madness and does not make sense. It is causing very significant financial problems for the industry in general. Together with the issue of driver testers, the Minister of State needs to follow up on that.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am following up on that. I have been working on licence exchange agreements between different countries. A substantial amount of work has been done behind the scenes with Argentina, North Macedonia and Moldova. Prior to the war in Ukraine, we were looking at Ukrainian haulage drivers. As a result of work at EU level, there is now a training course Ukrainian HGV drivers can do to be brought up to the qualifying standard to work as a haulier here in Ireland.

I take Deputy Lowry's point regarding work permits. I have been dealing with the Minister of State, Deputy English, and the RSA with regard to speeding up that process. I do not want anyone here to think there is nothing happening in this space. There is a very significant amount of work ongoing between different Departments, including work with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to get work permits over the line and speed up that process. The Minister of State is prioritising work permits to meet requirements for critical skill sets. Where we have notified him that certain skill sets are required, work has been expedited. I take the Deputy's point. There is a driver shortage and we have been working on licence exchange agreements, looking at recruiting in other countries and working with the RSA in that regard.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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Last year, the licensed haulage emergency support scheme paid out €15.5 million. When will the new scheme be in place? Will the financial support be similar or improved? What is the thinking in that regard?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will have a similar scheme to help licensed hauliers with their fuel costs. As the Deputy said, €15 million was allocated for a temporary support scheme earlier in the year, and I am planning something similar. Those details are being worked out. I am in regular contact with the IRHA on how that will work. I hope to make an announcement on that before Christmas.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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Has the Department undertaken a review of the redistribution of air travel? We all know that Dublin Airport is completely overburdened and is unable to cope. People cannot find spaces to park because the car parks are full. Every service within the Dublin Airport campus is under pressure. There is no let-up in that regard. At the same time, Shannon and Cork airports are not being utilised to the maximum extent. Those airports are not even achieving a fraction of their potential. Could a Government policy be initiated to divert some traffic from Dublin Airport to Shannon and Cork? At the moment, people are travelling from Limerick, Clare and Tipperary, passing Shannon and Cork, to an overcrowded airport in Dublin. Can Government to anything to provide incentives to airlines to direct more traffic through Cork and Shannon?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Just before the Deputy came in, I made the point that I am carrying out our mid-term review of the regional airports programme to do just that. We have opened up consultation on how we can have more balanced regional development. That is about driving more traffic through our regional airports with a focus on the regions. I got some feedback from the Chair on the closing date. I am doing an issues paper first and I want people to feed into that. That issues paper will form part of the public consultation. I do not want just the airports feeding into this. I want to hear from the hospitality sector, companies, chambers of commerce and anyone who is interested in how we can redirect that traffic. During the Covid pandemic, we had funding for airports to enable them to deal directly with airlines. What Shannon Airport did to drive more traffic through shows its ability in this regard. That gives me great confidence. I was in Shannon Airport recently for the launch of the new service to Paris-Orly. It also has more transatlantic flights, including to Chicago. The airports are capable of doing this but through the regional airports programme and national aviation policy, we need to enable them to direct more traffic through.

The mid-term review of regional airports is happening. I want that focus on the regions for exactly the same reason as the Deputy outlined. Exponential growth is projected for Dublin Airport. We do not want what we saw during the summer, with the airport not able to manage the number of passengers going through, to happen again. Through this consultation process, I want to open up the discussion and to feed into the regional airports programme and what it will look like post the Covid pandemic. We need to look at how people are doing business and how they are travelling, which has been changing. If we had done this six months ago or 12 months ago, we would be preparing a completely different policy. In the context of this new vista, it is important and timely for us to progress that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Before we continue, I wish to welcome the group from Mulcair Men's Shed that is visiting Leinster House. It is great to have them here.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Chairman say they were the best group?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Certainly. Better still, they are from east Limerick. I am delighted to have them here.

Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is no coincidence that they are from east Limerick, is it?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The regional airports may be the conduit to deal with the rebalancing of passenger numbers. However, the terms of reference will be key. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that matters will not be rushed. The deadline of 31 December for a position paper is too short, given the time of year. I ask the Minister of State to extend that to 31 January. I also ask her to issue a public notice that people may make submissions. We can see at first hand the enormous difference the regional programme has made for Shannon. Obviously, we want to attract new routes into Shannon. By attracting the routes, we can increase passenger numbers.

In recent years, including before the Covid pandemic, we had an increase in passenger numbers in all airports but an exponential increase in Dublin and that is the problem. We are not saying that we did not increase the number of passengers in Shannon and Cork; they just grew exponentially in Dublin. I can see where the Minister of State is coming from. I ask for that to become a key element of the national aviation policy.

Regarding the review of the national aviation policy around rebalancing passenger numbers, the conduit may be the regional airports programme. I believe it is important to get it right and I want buy-in. The Minister of State should put a notice on the Department website. She should extend the deadline for the positions paper to 31 January. That will allow the committee to feed into that. I presume the terms of reference will then be formed after which the public consultation can take place and we can feed into that again. The Minister of State understands the point I am making.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the point about giving the committee time. I do not want to rush this, but I do not want to put it on the long finger either.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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A deadline of 31 January is a good compromise.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is a good compromise. I take the point that the committee wants to hold hearings and it makes good sense.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are holding hearings. I was reflecting on it and when it comes down to it in looking at aviation policy and rebalancing the passenger numbers, the conduit maybe the regional airports programme. Deputy Carey made reference to the 3 million passengers. At the moment, Cork Airport would not qualify. We need to think outside the box. Dublin is growing too fast. As Deputy Carey said, we visited Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam. That airport has 71 million passengers and the Netherlands has a population of 17 million. Dublin Airport has 31 million passengers and we have a population of 5.5 million, which is one third of that of the Netherlands. We hear about Schiphol Airport being under enormous pressure. It puts it in context that we have a disproportionate amount of traffic going through Dublin Airport. We have one airport on the eastern seaboard and we have four on the western seaboard, Shannon, Cork, Knock and Kerry, only making up between 10% and 13% with the rest going through Dublin. It needs to be something that encourages the airlines to take it up. I think it is more carrot than stick.

We have done a serious body of work on this, and we will continue with that work. We welcome the review of the programme and the national aviation policy. That key element of the programme may actually be a review of the regional airports part of the policy. I ask the Minister of State to give us a commitment today that she will extend the deadline to 31 January. Can we take that as a commitment?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I will extend it for the Chairman. I appreciate the feedback and I want to work with the committee. I want this to be a robust and useful review. Any input that the committee has if it wants to submit a report or anything-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, are due to appear before the committee on 7 December. We will take it from there. I was just afraid that the deadline of 31 December would be set in stone. I welcome the flexibility on the part of the Minister of State.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A significant number of the questions I had intended to ask have been addressed or at least partly addressed. We are still operating on the basis that the waiting time for driving tests will be brought back to approximately ten weeks. Is this to happen by the end of quarter 2 of 2023? Is that still the timeline?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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As of 6 November 2022, 43,292 people were awaiting a test, of whom 3,000 received an open invitation in the past ten days but have not yet used it. Some 15,934 tests have been booked, while a further 24,071 are not eligible to take the test because they have had their permits for less than six months or have not completed their mandatory 12 pre-test driving lessons. Some 47,510 candidate applications are paused because, for example, they received an invitation but did not use it within the ten-day window available. I ask people who have a date for a test but are unable to attend to cancel it and allow someone else the opportunity. There is a percentage of no-shows.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Road Safety Authority has stated that. It does no harm to reiterate that point, which also applies to the national car test, NCT, and the rest of it. We are talking about appointments that are difficult to get so we do not need people wasting space or time for everybody else. Am I right that we are still working on the basis that in some point in quarter 2 of 2023 the situation will be resolved in the sense that we will return to normal waiting times?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will have to revert to the Deputy on that point.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. Am I right that we will be back to a 12-day wait for NCT appointments by the end of quarter 2 of 2023?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have exact figures but I know that a number of cars will need an NCT come January. There will be no immediate rectification of the NCT waiting list. My Department is meeting on a weekly basis with the RSA in that regard. It is hiring people from Spain to conduct NCTs. It has hired domestically. It is also hiring in the Philippines. In conjunction with the office of the Minister of State, Deputy English, we are looking at work permits to allow them to start work as quickly possible. We are enabling testers to do eight tests per day, as opposed to seven, if they engage in overtime. Considerable pressure is being put on the RSA around the NCT. I want to be clear that I am not happy with these backlogs. I have been clear with the RSA that it needs to step up and do whatever is required. If a different Government Department can help with work permits or whatever else is required, we will step in and do that. The RSA has a statutory responsibility to ensure that people are being served.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. The situation is like that of a guy asking for directions in Kerry and being told he should not be starting from there. However, we are where we are. It is not long since representatives of the RSA were before the committee. The Minister of State is not aware that the situation has got any worse. From her point of view, everything is being done in respect of recruitment, even considering the difficulties in recruitment across the board. I will add to what has been said before. Faster, quicker and better is what we need from our service. Delays are having detrimental impacts on many people, even from an employment point of view. We need to move things on as far as possible.

I will move on to consider TII. Everybody has heard the discussion around toll charges in the context of the cost-of-living crisis we are in. I apologise if I have missed anything because I was in the Dáil Chamber earlier. TII informed the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, of toll increases. Did it inform the Minister of State or the Department? What was the timeline involved and what communications have gone back to TII? I imagine most people are in agreement that now is not the time to be foisting additional costs on businesses or individuals.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy. That is the position of the Government in respect of the timing of these toll increases. The setting of tolls is the statutory responsibility of TII and is not a ministerial responsibility. That said, there is regular engagement, as I am sure the Deputy understands, between the Department and TII on a range of issues. The issue around the tolls would have been raised by TII as part of those regular engagements with the Department. The issue was notified internally within the Department and we were made aware in early September that tolls would be increasing. The timing of it is an issue. I know the party leaders are engaging and there is ongoing engagement with TII around the options that are being considered. We have allocated a lot of funding for households, businesses and commuters. We have reduced public transport fares across the board. There was an €11 billion budget to help people with the cost of living. Right now, we do not want another arm of the State to be imposing extra costs on people. We are having discussions about the options that are available now to ensure we protect commuters and those travelling to work and school, and hauliers who use these roads on a daily basis. We want a resolution as quickly as possible. That engagement is under way.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will come in on that point, with the indulgence of Deputy Ó Murchú. How would the communication from TII have come to the Department of Transport? Would that have been via email or verbal? What form did it take?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am sure it would have been verbal communication between the Department officials and TII. They engage regularly on a number of issues and that matter would have been raised.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Would TII have alerted Department officials or the Minister?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It would have alerted Department officials.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did that happen in early September?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It did.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did that give rise to any red flags in the Department? That was almost budget time. The budget took place in early September. Major supports were being announced in the budget to address the cost of living. Did the communication from TII raise any red flags among the Department officials at the time?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This is a statutory function of TII. It is not a ministerial responsibility. It was certainly not something I wanted to see during a cost-of-living crisis, when all these measures were being introduced and we were planning a budget. The focus was on putting in place measures for the budget. The focus now is on the three party leaders who are dealing with TII. There is complexity involved, as the representatives of TII will outline to the committee next week. There are eight different public private partnerships, PPPs, at different stages of funding in respect of motorways.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The notification to the Department came almost two and half months prior to TII making the announcement, as it did last Thursday. That was almost two and a half months after TII flagged the increase to the Department. The Minister of State will appreciate that an ordinary person looking in on these proceedings would ask how did TII present such an increase at a time of serious problems with the cost of living, including the cost of fuel and motoring cost. The ordinary person would also ask why it took two and a half months for the announcement to be made. It was only made as we entered the Christmas period. What is the background? We will put these questions directly to the representatives of TII. Is TII legally required to get the approval of the Department? Is it legally required to flag proposed increases to the Department?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We might also ask if it got lost in the Department.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No. The relevant toll by-laws set out the basis for calculating tolls. It is based on the consumer price index. The Minister has no statutory role in the setting of tolls. The Roads Act sets out that the setting of tolls is the statutory function of TII.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is TII required to make the Department and the Minister aware that it is approving these increases?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There is constant engagement between the Department and TII. These are annual calculations. What is important now is that the Government and the three party leaders are engaged to ensure that all options are explored to ensure commuters are not incurring the costs and the issue is resolved.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When was the last time there was an increase?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was an increase this year.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Was there an increase earlier this year?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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To how many tolls did that apply?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will get back to the Chairman on that point.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will look for clarity on that matter. We hope to have that clarity next week. This is happening at a particular time and there is acceptance across the board that at this point we need a solution that does not involve heaping more pressure on people and businesses that cannot afford it.

Maybe we need to look at the means and communications by which that happens between TII, the Department and the Minister.

On those sorts of communications, an issue was brought to me by a number of bus operators when they spoke about their routes. I am not entirely sure how this would be in play, but there are two aspects. Their concerns are in relation to the M1 and the amount of time their buses end up being stationary. Obviously there is an environmental cost and a cost to them. Is there a means by which buses could be facilitated with free-flow movement? Beyond that, there was talk about the issue we have, for example in Dublin at the minute, with the huge amount of traffic. It is not necessarily buses and public transport. Again, a number of us may be part of that problem. It has been said to me by a number of commuters that at times, they are not getting the bang for their buck on buses, in the context of time saved, that they would have previously. People have spoken previously about the example of going into Belfast when there are times the hard shoulder is facilitated for a period on the run into the city so that buses can use that. It would make buses more attractive and it would mean people could get to work on time and all of the rest. It fits into what the Government and all of us want to do around getting more people onto buses and public transport. I took a long time to say that.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy makes a very valid point. If we want to encourage people onto public transport we need to make sure that those are moving efficiently. Putting bus lanes on our national roads is under consideration. This is to try to help the movement of buses, and to help with exactly the issues highlighted by the Deputy. It is very valid point.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so that will be looked at. Obviously, there will also need to be the interaction with TII and whoever else needs to be----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Also, the legislation will be different. What happens in the North is different to what happens down here in the South with regard to the legislative process around that. Certainly, it is being looked at here for our national roads.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is definitely a positive. What is the time line at this stage on the all-island rail review?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is to be published very shortly. This is under the remit of the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. This will be one of the most far-reaching and ambitious rail reviews. It will be all-island. I understand it will be published very shortly. I believe it will be brought to the Government first before publication.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As with all of these interactions, I will ask about increasing the volume of train journeys being operated between Dublin and Belfast. Plans are in place in relation to delivering the Enterprise. Obviously, I would prefer that they would happen faster, but I accept that it is under way.

The committee also had the National Transport Authority and Ms Anne Graham in before us. I cannot say that I am totally impressed about the offer of the new Taxsaver ticket. We have been told about the technical problems. We will be waiting. I cannot even remember what the time line is for that. It may be 2024 or 2025 before we have a solution to offer to people for a journey-based or three-day week Taxsaver type ticket. These options would fit the new way that people are working with remote working and so on. I am aware that the likes of Matthews Coach Hire in Dundalk, through a number of over-and-back engagements with the NTA, were finally able to operate a system themselves. The fact remains, however, that the main State operators cannot give this facility to people at this point in time. Whatever the Government can do to put pressure on needs to be done.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will be aware that we have introduced other fare initiatives such as the 20% reduction in public transport fares, the 50% young adult card, and the Transport for Ireland 90-minute city ticket. I take Deputy's point, however, that we are ensuring that we are continuing to encourage people to take public transport and do whatever we can to reduce fares, to keep facilitating the use of public transport, and to make sure it runs efficiently and on time.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, there seems to be some technical issue but I believe an element of imagination is probably needed. Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, or the Minister, Deputy Ryan could involve themselves in the conversation. It could not do any harm.

What is long-term plan for those reductions? We are speaking about the 50% and there was an issue at one stage about students, but that got sorted to a degree. There is probably a certain cohort of young people who fall outside of the bracket if they are not a student. I am referring to the 16,17 and 18-year-olds - and apprentices - who use private bus operators. Has this been looked at? It might not be a huge amount for people but has this been dealt with? Perhaps the Minister of State will also comment on the long-term plans around the reductions that are in operation at the minute.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This is under constant review. It is about Exchequer funding and how best we could ensure that we are reducing the cost of transport for everybody on our public service obligation, PSO routes including our students. As the Deputy has said, it has been extended to 16 17 and 18-year-olds who are into full-time third level education. We want to continue this but it will depend on Exchequer funding. If we want to encourage people out of the cars we must ensure we continue these incentives on all public transport routes, be it bus or rail, right across the country, as well as the Connecting Ireland programme, which is about rural areas. Often when we talk about public transport, unfortunately people constantly think about urban areas and cities. This is about our rural towns and villages and making sure we can connect people right across the country as well.

I will now come back to the Chairman's question about the tolls. In December 2021, TII announced an increase in toll charges for eight toll roads for 2022. It must be noted that this is the first increase in tolls for motor cars since 2013. This increase was driven by inflation.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The increase was announced in December 2021 for how many toll roads? How many toll roads are there in total?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are eight toll roads, the M50 and-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There are eight public private partnership roads?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are ten.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So eight are public private partnership, PPP, toll roads and then there is the M50-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes the M50 and the port tunnel.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Were the eight toll road increases announced in December 2021 related totally to the PPP roads? Is that correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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"No" Is the answer to that. I will come back to the Chairman with the detail. I had forgotten to mention earlier with regard to the M50, that those tolls also go towards the maintenance of national routes across the country. I just want to include that point.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For the purposes of clarity, were the increases that TII announced last year just purely in relation to the PPP toll roads?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So it was in relation to the total of ten roads, which is the eight PPP roads plus the M50 and the port tunnel. Is that correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I would have to come back to the Chairman with the detail on that just to be sure.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are the increases required to be approved by the Minister for Transport or the Department before Transport Infrastructure Ireland can implement them?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is TII required to inform the Department that it is going to bring about those increases?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Do they do this is a matter of practice as distinct from a legal point?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, there is constant engagement with the Departments and TII.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the increases that were announced in December 2021, the Minister of State said there were no increases for toll charges for cars since 2013. That was roughly eight years previously. So there had not been an increase for a number of years. Why was there suddenly a further increase in the space of a year?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Essentially it was because of the consumer price index, CPI.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is there no latitude whereby TII can state that there are exceptional circumstances in terms of the cost of living and not provide that increase?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are contracts with the eight PPPs and there are contractual obligations around that. It is a complex area; hence the discussions that need to happen between TII and-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can I just get clarity for last year when TII approved increases? What was the increase at that time?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have those details but I will revert to the Chairman on that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did that relate to the eight tolls or was it eight PPPs plus the two tolls that come under the direct remit of-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to the Chairman as I do not want to give him incorrect information.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Going back to the Estimates, which is the main reason we are here today, I want to be certain if my analysis is correct. Under subhead B4, public service provisions payments, there is a figure of €92.515 million. Am I correct in saying that €82 million of that relates to the additional moneys given for the public service obligation in terms of the reductions in fares based on an initial estimate of €154 million? The Department has seen a saving of about €63 million due to increased passenger numbers. It found €9 million from the aviation travel package and travel tour operator fund, which brought the figure down to €82 million, and then there is €8 million for the adult card and €2 million for rural transport to be added. That makes up the €92 million. Is that correct?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Department sought €90.515 million under subhead B41, Covid non-commercial PSO support, in supplementary funding from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. This includes €8 million in funding related to the extension of the youth adult card to the commercial bus sector, €30 million in funding related to the 20% average fare reduction relating to the PSO and €52.515 million in funding for PSO operators to ensure the continuation of the PSO services to year end.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The €9 million has been void from savings in the aviation travel package and travel tour operator fund. How did those savings arise?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There was also €2 million relating to Connecting Ireland. What was the Chairman's question?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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According to the Minister of State's opening statement, "Some €9 million has been vired from savings in the aviation travel package and travel tour operator funds, to reduce the net requirement to €82.515 million." How did that arise?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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During Covid, a package was put in place in cases where people who bought a holiday through a travel agency could not go because of Covid and the bond did not come through.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That was not drawn down because Covid had subsided.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. Essentially, there was less demand than forecast on the fund.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Due to Covid subsiding, people were able to travel.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When does the Minister of State expect the scheme relating to the cost of fuel relating to the haulage sector to be in place?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will announce that before Christmas. It is being worked on and will be for 2023.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister met with the road hauliers on this?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I have. We have constant engagement on this.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is that with Mr. Brennan, his colleagues and others?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a serious problem with driver licences. The Minister of State needs to go back to the RSA and find out what it is doing with the number of driver testers. This is a numbers game. The RSA does not have enough driver testers. It makes no sense. A derogation should have been given for the 30 staff who were there. In the current climate, a way should have been found to give a derogation to retain those staff for whatever period of time was necessary to deal with the backlog. They are hugely experienced and could have been recruited in the normal way over time on permanent contracts but they needed to be held. Could the Minister of State tell me about the €3.6 million allocated to the Coast Guard? How did that come about?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That relates to contractual and cost increases. Annual safety training costs were incurred. Training could not happen during Covid so it had to be in 2022.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why was it not picked up that there would be additional costs when the Department did the original Estimate last year? Why is the Minister of State coming back now?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to the Chairman about why it was not picked up but it involved inflation with regard to the contract but also the training that could not happen during Covid that happened in 2022.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would prefer if we could deal with it today. Would it be fair to say that when the Government was doing the Estimates, Covid was still strong and it so happened that it subsided, which enabled this training to take place? Is that the reason?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It could be. I want to confirm. The training could not happen during Covid, which is the reason it was deferred? That is why the cost-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What I am saying is that the reason it was not picked up when the Government did the original Estimate is that it did not expect the training to be done because of Covid.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Everything was in flux during the year.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is roughly 5%. It is a lot of money but not in the overall context of the budget.

I will return to the issue of HGV licences. There are a number of aspects to this. It involves the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in respect of work permits. A person in South Africa would apply to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for a work permit. Once this person gets the work permit, he or she has to enter Ireland and get a PPS number to get a public services card. The person must also apply to the RSA for an exchange of licence. That was taking a considerable period of time. Once the person had that, he or she then had to do a course for two or three weeks before being able to take up the job. Deputy Lowry noted that in many cases, the person would be waiting for six months.

Regarding the proposal I would put to the Department of Transport and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, our understanding is that the RSA is involved in the work permit process so the bulk of the work involved in looking at exchange of licences should be done as a matter of course during the work permit verification process. Can this then reduce the time spent on the exchange of licence process within the RSA? I know discussions are ongoing. This is about reducing time periods and getting as much work as possible done while applicants are in their home countries so that when they come to Ireland, they can start work as quickly as possible. How far have those discussions between the Departments gone? I have gone through this in great detail. I have spoken to the relevant Departments so people will be aware of my interest in the matter. I looked at it forensically and it seems to me that it should be possible. We are looking at reducing the time period once people land in Ireland. Has exchange of licences been looked at to see whether we can streamline the process on the basis that a lot of the verification work has been done as part of the work permit process?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The times for issuing work permits have significantly reduced. There has been significant engagement between my Department and the Minister of State, Deputy English.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is one element.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is one element. It is critical. I know my Department is engaging with the RSA about the overall process in order to speed that up.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is more critical. The work permits need to go through but it is more important that once drivers land in Ireland, they are able to take up the job as quickly as possible. The work permit is processed while people are in their home country but they cannot get an exchange of licence unless they are physically present in Ireland. I am saying the process for exchanging licences was taking an inordinate amount of time. Has this been looked at with the RSA?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is being looked at. Officials are engaging with the RSA on that issue to speed things up.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We might come back to the Minister of State on that. It is critical.

I will now turn to the regional airports programme. I understand the Minister will formally put something out to look for people to-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Chairman mean we should feed into the issues paper?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Plus we should extend the deadline date to 31 January.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Next, we must firm up on the issues paper. There will be proper detailed consultation, a firming up on the terms of reference and we will feed into that.

The Minister of State and the Minister will appear before the committee on 7 December to discuss the general area of aviation. Can we take it that the work in this area would form major segment of the review of the national aviation policy? If so, then that would be a body of work that, in turn, could act as a conduit for a greater regional distribution of air traffic. If that body of work was done and became an element of the national aviation policy, then that might be a proper method of integration. Is the Minister of State open to my suggestion?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Of course, that segment of work must feed into the national aviation policy.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No, not feed into. I am worried about happens when we do a body of work, so let us consider the state of aviation in Ireland and the realities of it were put in context for me when we visited Holland. As many as 71 million passengers use the main airport of Holland, which is Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam, and that country has a population of 17 million. By contrast, Ireland has a population of 5 million but more than 31 million passengers have come through the hub of a major airport and, therefore, we must get more traffic. Shannon Airport can take 4.5 million passengers and is used by under 1 million people, so it has excess capacity and I suggest we seek 3.5 million passengers for that airport. I am not certain of the number for Cork Airport but I know that it is lower. Unfortunately, the Government is not looking at divesting a huge amount but we need to divest to bring the airports in this country to a level where they are sustainable and provide balanced regional development.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As much as 40% of all FDI is in the mid-west, which is very much due to Shannon Airport.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. When we look at the national aviation policy, we must ensure there is regional balance. The programme for Government contains a commitment to provide regional balance, which includes aviation and that is why it is important that we consider regional airports first. That aspect is so important and glaring to all of us, particularly after we all saw what happened at Dublin Airport. This body of work is extremely important. I agree with the Chair's suggestion that the deadline be extended because we must not rush things and ensure any analysis is done right.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We will have representatives of the airlines and whoever else necessary feed into the work.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is brilliant.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister of State to send the data on TII from last year to the committee. Perhaps she might give us the data on the increases over the last number of years, if she has that information. Next Tuesday, the committee will meet the representatives of TII so I ask that the information is quickly supplied to us and, ideally, before the weekend thus allowing the secretariat an opportunity to circulate it to members.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State has to deal with issues concerning regional airports. We could all talk about regional imbalance and even what happened in Dublin last year. The committee invited a number of commentators in here, including Mr. Willie Walsh. He spoke in a general sense but was very straight about solutions that would work for Shannon. I say that because sometimes we, in here, have probably simplified things and asked for flights to be almost displaced from Dublin Airport. I am not sure that it is possible to displace them because Dublin Airport will always remain a hub. I hope that I recall the words of Mr. Walsh correctly when I say that I think the idea that one could literally fly in was mentioned. Obviously a point to point service works. The more point to points an airport gets the better and increasing them can be relatively simple. I do not know what would happen beyond such a service but maybe it is a connection with another hub. Again, that is a hub and one is not displacing flights that are already flying from Dublin. I assume that all of these aspects will form part of the conversation and we must ensure it is put together. The issues probably get over simplified when politicians speak, issue press releases or whatever.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is the value of having committee hearings.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Committee hearings means that when one submits something one has the airline's point of view because it must run a business. At the same time let us consider what happened during Covid. We gave €160 million to the airports and airlines, so we put a huge amount of funding into the sector. Today, a huge emphasis has been placed on Shannon Airport but the same can be said for Kerry Airport, Ireland West Airport Knock and Cork Airport. The airports did critical work and proved that they have a business head. They are commercial entities that want to thrive. The Government and I want them to thrive too. No matter who the Minister of the day is, we do not want to give out handouts for the sake of doing so. We want the airports to be commercially viable. I have visited Cork Airport, Shannon Airport and Ireland West Airport Knock where I saw at first hand the extra flights they have secured by dealing directly with airlines. One may have the management of an airline say the Government cannot direct them to go somewhere, which is fine and we all understand. However, airports negotiate directly with airlines to encourage them to use the airports. The question is what else can we do to attract more air traffic into the regions and that is why we need to open up the conversation to businesses to see where people are travelling. We must do that as there is no point setting up a direct flight to a destination where there is no demand because the route would be subvented, which nobody wants.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We must have a real conversation-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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----to assure people we are not talking about doing something that, even if we got agreement, displaced an existing service.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is about Ireland Inc. and ensuring that the regions thrive. Let me give a very good example. The Dublin to Kerry route is no longer a public service obligation, PSO, one because representatives of an airline have said the State does not need to subvent the route and the airline will step in as the route is viable, and, as a commercial entity, it sees value in a Dublin to Kerry route. I want all of our airports to reach that point. I am open to a conversation and I am not trying to pre-determine any outcome. This situation is why the committee is so important as it is in a very good position to bring in voices, and maybe different ones than were previously heard.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with that useful suggestion. Fuel types is a wider issue for air travel but that debate is for another day. Obviously the aviation sector needs to cease using fossil fuels.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We can be leaders with sustainable aviation fuels.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This country cannot operate without planes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We are an island nation and we cannot erect a rail line to the Continent but we can be leaders in terms of our use of sustainable fuels. The Shannon estuary and region could be leaders in that field as Future Mobility Campus Ireland has located its campus in Shannon, County Clare. This country has lots of good selling points in terms of the aviation industry and we are seen as leaders across the world, which shows that the industry is not just flights. As somebody mentioned elsewhere, the industry here comprises leasing and everything else connected to the industry. There is a huge amount interest around the globe in Ireland from both the business and tourism points of view. All we have to do is market Ireland and attract business so that is where tourism promotion comes in. I suggest that the joint committee, as part of its hearings, invite representatives of the tourism industry in and ask them what else can be done to drive the demand, and market what we have in the regions.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There are planning issues and that is the reason there is an ongoing review by the Attorney General. There have been issues with An Bord Pleanála. We, as public representatives, sometimes must deal with issues that communities are worried about. Let me give as an example of the N53 at Rassan, which is townland located north of Dundalk, County Louth. An oral hearing was meant to take place before the end of the year but there were problems, such as a backlog, in An Bord Pleanála. Whatever work needs to be done should be done because the project needs to go ahead.

I agree with some of my colleagues who mentioned a review of speeds, safety issues and all the rest. We probably need to streamline the whole process because it has become an awful lot of stakeholders talking at each other, whether that is the Department, local authorities, TII and whoever else. I do not expect the Minister of State to deal with all of these issues in the next two minutes but I emphasise that people are worried about the planning process and moneys being released.

Another issue is the Ardee bypass, which is a necessary piece of work. I argue that it has taken a long time for the bypass to happen. There probably should have been a greater element, at an earlier stage, of community consultation and some attempts to rectify the situation. Remedying the matter is difficult to do given the planning system. The planning piece is something that definitely needs to be sorted across the board.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy and I could talk about the planning delays in my own county. As he said, the Attorney General is looking at the planning code and will bring a report, I think, to Government on the matter.

I take the Deputy's point.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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All those projects will happen and, on the basis of my bringing them up here, faster and better, yes?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are all on our agenda. I can assure the Deputy of that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I wish to go back, Minister, and to bring clarity and a conclusion to the Estimate. Will you give me a breakdown of the €3.6 million for the Coast Guard? You said:

A total of €3.6 million will be allocated to the Coast Guard, the bulk of which relates to contractual and cost increases. Additional safety training costs were also incurred.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Due to Covid-19 restrictions in 2021, there was a delay in the implementation and completion of night vision training. That meant that costs profiled for 2021 were not incurred until 2022. The Department has also incurred unforeseen additional expenses at Dublin Airport as a result of the installation of a fence farther out than originally thought, which has resulted-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Who paid for that? Why did DAA itself not pay for it?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That resulted in new rent charges for the additional land-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is this for the Coast Guard?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is the rent. The Irish Coast Guard, ICG, has explored different options to remove this cost but has been unsuccessful. It is worth noting that these charges are backdated to 2021 due to the exploration of different options.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How much did that come to? What is that for?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We do not have that-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For what are those charges backdated?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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These are the charges for the rental of the additional land. I will come back to you with the figure for those additional charges.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Just give me a breakdown of the €3.6 million. I just want to know the components of it.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are three to four drivers, including the CPI uplift in the Coast Guard contract-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Two or three new drivers, is it?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are the flying hours charges for CHC Ireland, CHCI, and a CHCI contract amendment. The CPI is €1.5 million-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the CPI? Is that the increases in respect of staff?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is inflation. That is for flying hours charges, the CHCI contract and night-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is €1.5 million. That leaves another €2.1 million. What is that for?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will get the breakdown. The balance is for the training-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For what training?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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-----and the security.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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And the training-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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For night vision training.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will get you the breakdown of that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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With members' agreement, we will proceed to let the Estimate go through, subject to our getting that documentation and there being nothing of concern in it.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and her officials for attending and engaging with the committee. We ask that that documentation be sent to us quickly. We ask that we get detailed briefs in future. I cannot rely just on my accounting skills to go through and flesh out the Estimates. I should not have had to probe. The Department should give us the detail in future. This is our job.