Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 22 November 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government
Implementing Housing for All: Discussion (Resumed)
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We meet today as part of a series of meetings on the implementation of Housing for All. We have engaged with a number of local authorities, including in the Dublin area. We are today engaging with local authorities from the greater Dublin area. We have also engaged with local authorities from other cities. We are joined from Kildare County Council by Ms Sonya Kavanagh, chief executive, and Ms Annette Aspell, director of services for housing and corporate services. We are also joined online by Mr. David Creighton, senior architect. They are very welcome.
From Meath County Council, we are joined by Ms Jackie Maguire, chief executive; Mr. Barry Lynch, director of services for housing, community and cultural development; and Mr. Dara McGowan, director of corporate affairs and governance, climate action and emergency services. We are also joined online by Mr. Brian Hora, senior executive officer, and Ms Corrina Elder, senior engineer. I welcome our guests to the committee meeting and thank them for their attendance and for assisting the committee. The committee has committed a substantial amount of time to meeting local authorities to consider the historical delivery of housing and the targets to 2026 under Housing for All. At the end of the series of meetings, the committee will compile a report. We will also meet with the Land Development Agency and some of the approved housing bodies. We will also bring in representatives of the Department. We hope then to produce a report for circulation.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Witnesses who are attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. That means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Those attending the meeting online have limited privilege but still retain some rights and privileges.
Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I will shortly call on our witnesses to make their opening statements. We will start with Kildare County Council, followed by Meath County Council. I note both local authorities have submitted their housing delivery action plans and I thank them for that. I call Ms Kavanagh.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to meet them. As the Cathaoirleach indicated, I am joined by my colleague Ms Annette Aspell, director of services for housing and corporate services.
The programme of delivery for social housing under Rebuilding Ireland concluded at the end of 2021. Kildare County Council received a target for social housing delivery of 2,426 units. Over the four years of the programme, we delivered 2,693 social housing units across the county, thereby exceeding our target by 267 units. During the same period, 2,520 new housing assistance payment, HAP, tenancies commenced in the county and there are currently 2,069 active HAP tenancies.
We published our housing delivery action plan, which outlines the social and affordable housing delivery under Housing for All in August. We have been set a target to deliver 2,416 social housing units across the five years of the delivery programme. In addition, targets have been set for delivery of affordable housing units. Applications are currently being prepared for submission to the affordable housing fund in support of our 2022 and 2023 targets. Work has also commenced on developing a pipeline of affordable units for the remainder of the programme. We currently have projects on hand on our own land that will deliver in excess of 475 units, with a further potential 235 units in pipeline projects. That is in addition to 63 units being delivered by approved housing bodies on council-owned lands.
A further 85 units are being progressed through the capital assistance scheme. Some 215 units are being progressed under the public private partnership programme. This is in addition to other mechanisms of delivery such as Part V, capital advance leasing facility, CALF, acquisition, etc.
There has been a strong pipeline of delivery of Part V with 512 units delivered under the previous housing programme. We expect the delivery of 515 units through the current programme. Table 4 in my submission refers to Kildare County Council’s success delivering social housing through the PPP programme.
The need for age-friendly-specific accommodation has been acknowledged in our social housing delivery programme, with units to be delivered by the council directly and in partnership with AHBs. Rightsizing will be considered by our housing strategic policy committee in 2023.
On acquisitions, we successfully acquired properties for social housing in recent years. The majority of the properties required significant refurbishment. The ability to acquire a property is an important element of our housing programme and has been used as an aid to prevent homelessness.
The preliminary census 2022 data indicates that County Kildare has one of the lowest vacancy rates in the country at 5.3%. Our vacant homes officer actively monitors reports of vacant homes in the county, carrying out site visits as necessary. As part of this work, derelict properties are also being considered in order to identify any properties that may be suitable for social housing. Suffice to say that all of the schemes available to us are used to progress vacant properties into active use.
Three CPOs have been completed through the buy and renew scheme to date and we are commencing the process for a further six properties this month, with an additional 13 units under consideration for early 2023. Interest is beginning to increase in terms of the repair and lease scheme. Initial feedback since the introduction of the Croí Cónaithe scheme in July is positive, with 11 applications received to date.
I can also confirm that I am in the process of establishing a town regeneration team, with dedicated technical support, to be located in the housing department. This new team will have responsibility for the implementation of the town centre first policy.
Figures for cost rental are included in table 5 of my submission. Both Clúid and Tuath have successfully delivered cost-rental units in County Kildare. The Land Development Agency has recently received approval from An Bord Pleanála for the construction of 219 units at Devoy Park, Naas. No local authority cost-rental delivery has been identified in our action plan. However, this will be considered further once the staffing resources are in place.
In conclusion, there are challenges and risks to our housing delivery programme as set out in our action plan. Kildare County Council successfully delivered on targets for social housing under the Rebuilding Ireland programme and we will drive forward the Housing for All programme by continuing to meet our targets for social housing and commencing a programme of delivery of affordable housing.
We are happy to take any questions on this statement or any issues associated with the delivery of social and-or affordable housing.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Kavanagh and invite Ms Maguire to speak on behalf of Meath County Council.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
I thank the committee for its invitation to attend this afternoon’s meeting to discuss the implementation of Housing for All. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Barry Lynch, director of services for housing, community and cultural development, and Mr. Dara McGowan, director of corporate affairs and governance, climate action and emergency services, who has specific responsibility for derelict sites and the council’s vacant homes unit.
My submission includes summaries of housing delivery under Rebuilding Ireland and projected delivery under Housing for All in tables 1 and 2, respectively. Table 1 outlines a delivery output of 1,665 units across the various housing mechanisms for the four-year period 2018 to 2021 against a set target of 1,190 in the Rebuilding Ireland programme. That is an excess of 475 units. Table 2 outlines what is planned to be delivered by the Meath County Council over the life of the housing delivery action plan which would entail the acquisition of approximately 10 ha of land for the construction of social housing schemes as outlined in the plan. A much greater scale of land acquisition would be required to fully eliminate existing net need and pent-up demand due to transfer applications. The support of the Department of Housing Local Government and Heritage in sanctioning an additional 13 staff for the social housing capital programme is acknowledged. Meath County Council is active across a number of delivery streams and of which I will now give an overview.
The national age-friendly shared service for housing for older people is hosted by Meath County Council and is dedicated to promoting the provision of age-friendly housing nationally through a network of age-friendly technical advisers and through online channels primarily the agefriendlyhomes.iewebsite. At a local level single applicants who are over 55 years account for 11.6% of the gross housing need in the county. The council is working to address this need through a combination of its own direct construction schemes and in collaboration with the approved housing bodies, such as the recently opened Colliers Place in Duleek. Meath County Council is currently at planning stage for a pilot scheme in Carrick Street in Kells where 30% of the 47 units are to be built to universal design standards. This project involves the regeneration of a significant town centre brownfield site and Meath County Council intends to replicate this regeneration approach elsewhere in the county, for example, at Brews Hill in Navan.
Turning to projections on activation of vacant properties, the preliminary census data for 2022 indicates a vacancy rate of Meath of 5.81% compared with a national rate of 7.85%. Geo Directory data for the fourth quarter of 2021 indicates a much lower vacancy rate of 3% compared with a national average of 4.4%. While the vacancy rate in Meath is low, the council is taking a number of measures to bring vacant stock back into use.
Meath Council has established its Town Centre First section in corporate affairs and governance. To complement this section, the town regeneration officer will also be responsible for managing the vacant homes officer and derelict sites officer. It is the intention that this new team working together will endeavour to increase the number of properties brought back into use. In recent years, the council has brought back 87 properties through the following schemes. The buy and renew scheme funds local authorities to purchase and renew housing units in need of remediation and make them available for social housing use. Between 2017 and 2022, the council secured 55 properties under this scheme. The repair and lease scheme funds works to suitable vacant properties, to bring them up to the standard for rented accommodation and the cost of the works is then deducted from lease payments over an agreed lease term. The council has secured just one property under this scheme since 2018. Change of use exemptions provide for commercial properties that have been vacant for more than two years to avail of the exemptions from planning legislation if converting the property to residential use. There have been 18 notifications received by the council between 2018 and 2022. Derelict sites legislation allows the council to acquire properties that are considered vacant and where the owners are not carrying out appropriate improvement works. Between 2019 and 2022, the council acquired 13 derelict sites or vacant properties via a CPO process. Meath County Council will continue to utilise the various schemes outlined above to bring properties back into use for social housing purposes.
Part V delivery is entirely dependent on the level of construction activity in the private sector. An average of 90 Part V units per annum was delivered during the last plan and this level of activity has helped inform the housing delivery action plan for 2022 to 2026. The plan provides for an estimated 277 local authority Part V units with the remainder to be provided under arrangements with the approved housing body sector. Risk factors to achieving this include construction cost inflation and supply chain issues which may slow the pace of activity. The transitional provisions for Part V adopted as part of the Affordable Housing Act 2021 mean that it will take some time for the increase in Part V from 10% to 20% to flow through to house completions. Where feasible the council also looks to secure additional units over and above the Part V requirement on a turnkey basis.
Finally, on cost rental and affordable housing, affordable delivery in the county will be achieved through a number of mechanisms in addition to local authority provision, including the first home scheme and cost-rental units provided by the approved housing bodies. The council’s own target as set by the Department is to provide 151 units over the period of the housing delivery action plan. This will be achieved by a combination of turnkey arrangements, involving direct sales to approved applicants, in co-operation with local developers and the Land Development Agency as well as some direct construction activity. While it is anticipated that the majority of units will be for affordable purchase the council will also examine the feasibility of providing cost-rental units directly. The council wishes to acknowledge the support of the Department in sanctioning three additional staff for the purpose of affordable housing delivery.
Meath County Council intends to deploy all the resources at its disposal to implement the various measures contained in Housing for All and the foregoing outlines some of the key aspects involved in achieving this. We are happy to deal with any questions members may have.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Maguire. I acknowledge we sought and received submissions on this from Louth and Wicklow County Councils. We have therefore received submissions from the four greater Dublin area local authorities and these will be included in the report.
I move to members. The slots are seven minutes for questions and answers. The first is a Fianna Fáil one and will be taken by Senator O'Loughlin.
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for the opportunity to come in. Understandably, I will just be directing my questions to Kildare County Council. Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell, who I have worked with in the past, are very welcome. I thank them for the good work they do in delivering what are not just houses but homes for those who need them in Kildare, and also for meeting their social housing targets.
I have a number of questions so I will group them together and the officials can then respond. Looking at the council's submission, I have a few queries. It is great to see the social housing targets being met but the affordable housing piece is hugely important. There are concerns about affordable properties because of the downward price adjustment. The number of unsold affordable properties being 48 is a concern. Many of the people I deal with who have a housing need want an affordable home. I ask the council officials to expand on that. Have they had any opportunities to avail of Department funding around affordable and have not availed of it?
I am pleased to hear about the town regeneration team, which is really important. On foot of that, I raise the Peter McVerry house on Eyre Street, Newbridge. It is important when the contracts are signed again that it is a dry house. There were never any issues when it was but there are significant problems with businesses and residents in the area, which I am sure the council is well aware of. I make that appeal publicly. By all means renew the contract but it should be a dry home.
What is the average planning time, from start to finish, for estates, whether private or social? It is important when we are building houses that we are building sustainable communities. Given the very significant building going on in Kildare at the moment, especially in our larger towns, we need to have more resources. I am talking in particular about the need for a new bridge in Newbridge and for transport, playgrounds and community facilities. The officials might comment on that.
In the context of social housing acquisitions, I raise Liffey Lodge. I understood a commitment had been made it would be part of a community resource, which is obviously badly-needed in Newbridge.
It was said 40% of social units are provided by AHBs. That concerns me because those tenants are not going to be in a position to buy their homes. That is something we must be aware of and flag for people.
How many housing loans are being given out by the council? Is the council buying houses with a tenant in situ? On the demand for housing, there is significant demand for one-bed housing at 42%. How do we address that?
Ms Annette Aspell:
I thank the Senator. I will try to address the questions she posed. She referred to unsold affordable housing. At the end of last year we received some funding from the Department to cover the cost of, I think, 19 units. That is stock that remains from the last affordable housing scheme but they are all tenanted at the moment by social housing tenants and in active use. I sit on a national working group that is trying to come up with a solution to finally address that problem. I am part of a number of local authority officials sitting on that working group, so there is activity in that area. We hope to see a conclusion to that shortly.
On our new affordable housing scheme, we are planning to, and have some proposals in mind on how we can, develop our scheme. We were waiting for the staff to be assigned so we are very grateful the Department has now approved three staff to be appointed to the council to drive that affordable housing scheme. We will definitely see progress on that early in 2023.
Town regeneration comes within my area in terms of housing. Again, staff are being assigned to that area at the moment so we will see some further progress on that again towards the end of this year and into the next.
On Michael Garry House in Newbridge, I note the Senator's comments on that. I will just note them for today and not comment any further on that.
On the time it takes, I can comment on how long it would take to get a social housing project through the process. We aim for a 53-week turnaround but I must say it is very challenging. The land bank we have is limited, as the Senator will know. Much of the land we have has issues related to it that we must address in the form of infrastructural deficits and other issues that take time to address. While we strive to meet those targets they are difficult to achieve, but we are always actively trying to bring our projects through the process at the earliest opportunity. We want to deliver a good project ultimately and so are always mindful of that in the context of our delivery programme.
On acquisitions, as the Senator knows, we acquired Liffey Lodge at the beginning of this year. It is being used to accommodate displaced people from Ukraine but we will be progressing to feasibility and there will be a community element of that, as well as possibly age-friendly accommodation. The feasibility has to be prepared for that but that is what we are considering for the site, with a community element to that.
On the AHBs, the funding model is a 40:60 split and that is how the funding arrangement is for delivery, so that is what we have been asked to work towards.
I will have to check the figures for the Senator to see how many housing loans have been drawn down. Certainly in the first half of this year, while we were approving loans, there were very few if any being drawn down because people were struggling to find properties within the limits set under the loan scheme at the moment. We are seeing some movement on that in recent weeks but we will be keeping our eye on that to see if it improves and whether people start to draw down their loan approvals.
Demand for one-beds is significant in the county; it is very high. Obviously, the market is not really delivering one-bed units. We are working to see if we can deliver additional one-beds through Part Vs as that might supplement our stock. We are also mindful of that in our delivery programme as well. We look to acquire one-bed properties if we can, particularly through the capital assistance scheme, CAS, for one-bed deliveries there, for the categories that fit into those criteria.
Patricia Ryan (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell for being here. It is lovely to see them. Like the Senator I will ask my questions consecutively to save on time.
Well done to the officials for achieving their targets, which admittedly are relatively low. I wonder how much more the council could deliver given the right tools. What would it need to deliver them? I have been approached by landlords with HAP tenants who are hoping to sell to the council. I understand it may have run out of funds for this year. Will that change in January?
How much money has Kildare County Council received from the Department so far this year? Has the county council spent all of the money allocated or found it difficult to do so?
In terms of Traveller accommodation, how much money has the county council been allocated? How much of that allocation will be spent this year?
Finally, we are all aware that some council houses have serious refurbishment needs and have been vacant for a long time. What support does the county council need to bring these homes back into use more quickly?
Ms Annette Aspell:
I thank the Deputy for her comments on the delivery programme. Yes, it was successful in terms of Rebuilding Ireland. That was a good programme for us.
On targets, our targets reflect need. I mean that our targets are based on the summary of social housing assessment and set by the Department. We work towards our targets. As the Deputy noted, under the Rebuilding Ireland programme we delivered about 11% above our targets. We will always strive to deliver more, if we can. Obviously the programme is based on the funding model from the Department too. There is no indication that the Department would not fund additional delivery, if we had the capacity to deliver that. I do not see any issue there.
In terms of HAP tenants, yes, this year we did have a small acquisition programme approved by the Department. We have been successful in securing some of those tenants in their properties. We hope to be able to do that work again next year but there has been no indication as yet whether the scheme will remain in place for 2023. We would have people that we could accommodate if we have access to the funding. We will wait and see if we get confirmation on that.
On the money that we have received, we do not get an allocation at the start of the year. We get funding based on what we request from the Department. I do not have an overall figure for what we have spent. I am certain that what we have spent has been recouped and we will have further recoupment before the end of the year. There is no issue with funding drawdown and we get the funding that we request.
In terms of Traveller accommodation, the funding model has been changed. Heretofore, we received an allocation of funding per year but now funding is based on the proposals that we put forward. At the moment we are working towards delivering a group housing programme that is adjacent to the halting site in Athy. The Department has taken the project through the first phase of approval. We are moving on with the project at the moment.
We have a relatively low vacancy rate in our housing stock. We do not traditionally have a very extensive voids programme in County Kildare. We run at between 2% and 2.5% of our stock being vacant at any one time but that is natural turnover. We have some properties that have been fire damaged and things like that, which take time to bring through the process. We are mindful of trying to improve turnaround in terms of vacancy and it is something that we are actively working on.
Patricia Ryan (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct to say that Kildare County Council does not have more funds to buy houses for people who qualify for HAP at the moment?
Ms Annette Aspell:
We were not set an actual limit. We must get approval from the Department in terms of what we can acquire. If we had additional properties that we wanted to buy then we would need to get additional approval. I think we have purchased around 15 properties this year, with the approval of the Department. Anything above that we would have to get further approval but we would have to get into a discussion with the Department about that.
Patricia Ryan (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I asked because I am concerned about tenants who have been asked to leave their homes. With the eviction ban they will not leave these properties. Let us say we have a landlord who wants to sell his or her property to the council in order to keep a tenant in situ, what can we do to resolve such issues in the Kildare area?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am deputising for Deputy Higgins. I welcome our participants and I particularly welcome Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell who represent Kildare County Council.
One of the biggest issues at present is the number of people who are on the local authority housing list, live in rental accommodation and have an income above the threshold to qualify for a local authority house. What are their prospects? Has Kildare County Council made representations to the Department for a realistic increase in the threshold to ensure that people, for instance, those who have an income of €50,000 or so, have the opportunity to get a council house? I ask because such people cannot possibly buy a house in their current situation.
I have questions on the number of houses available for re-letting, and perhaps by the local authority. How many of them are there? In general, how many bedrooms do these properties have? The income threshold is also an important aspect.
On Traveller accommodation, like every other member I am dealing with a number of Traveller applications where there is a very long wait for accommodation even though the applicants are in urgent need of rehousing, are under terrible pressure and live in overcrowded conditions. In fact, special funding has been allocated for Traveller accommodation. How is the scheme working? Has it worked satisfactorily throughout north Kildare?
I welcome the number of housing developments that are taking place. I congratulate the officials involved and those who must deal with applications. What is the present average number of local authority receipts for housing under Part V for this year, last year or whatever number of years? Is the county council certain that it gets the full number in each case? Is it sure of that in cases where a large number of apartments are scheduled for letting for them? Are we gaining, as a result of all the development that has taken place in north Kildare, to the extent that we need given the high demand for housing?
Ms Annette Aspell:
On the income threshold, I completely agree that the income threshold for County Kildare need to be increased. We have actively asked the Department to consider an increase for a number of years. We did understand that there was to be a review but, to my understanding, either it has not been carried out or has not been completed. We would support that.
On the number of houses available for letting, we have let almost 700 units to date this year. The number of bedrooms vary. The traditional housing stock in County Kildare is three-bedroom semi-detached houses, as the Deputy will know. We are actively trying to add one and two-bedroom units and increase our housing stock. I can get the Deputy further statistics, if he wishes, in terms of the actual number and the bedroom types.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Ms Annette Aspell:
On Traveller accommodation, yes, we have done a significant amount of work but there is a lot more to be done. A lot of our Traveller accommodation allocations have been to general needs housing, which is indicated as a request to have that type of accommodation. We try to actively support that but we do need to increase the number of group housing provision. For example, there is definitely a need there to be addressed. Earlier I mentioned the development at Athy. I appreciate that the Deputy is probably more interested in what we can do in north Kildare and we are looking at how we can deliver something in Naas.
On Part V delivery, I am very confident that we are getting what we are due to get under Part V. We would deliver in the region of 100 units per year through Part V. We expect to deliver in excess of 500 units through Part V under the Housing for All programme.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does the number of houses becoming available, under Part V, correspond proportionately with the number of houses that are built on a yearly basis in the private sector? Are the officials certain that the houses are coming on-stream in the way expected?
I have noticed in recent weeks an increasing number of people who have received notice from landlords as to the termination of their tenancy. They find themselves between the original rock and a hard place of having to move on at some stage. I know that there is legislation to put an end to immediate homelessness.
There is an increasing number of people there. I am inquiring as to whether the council might be in a position to provide sufficient emergency accommodation for those people as they arrive, given the numbers that are now presenting?
Ms Annette Aspell:
In terms of Part V, yes we are confident that we are receiving the numbers of Part V that were due in. The planning applications are assessed to make sure we are receiving what we are due. The housing department meets with the developers through the preplanning process, and we are involved in the process from the outset. I would be very confident on that.
With regard to people who are receiving the termination notices, I hear reports from our homeless team that we are seeing an impact from the moratorium on notices to quit and that not as many people are presenting as homeless at the moment. We are actively monitoring that. Obviously, access to emergency accommodation is always difficult but we keep that under review to try to make sure we have the emergency accommodation that we need available. At the moment, however, and particularly with families, the intervention around the notices to quit does seem to be having an impact.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Durkan. The next slot is the Independents but they may be occupied in the Seanad and the Dáil so I will move on to the next slot which is the Green Party slot and I will take that.
I have questions for representatives from both of the local authorities. It is very helpful for us to engage with different local authorities from the ones we all have been used to where we probably served as councillors in the past. Last year two significant pieces of legislation were passed, the Land Development Agency Act 2021 and the Affordable Housing Act 2021. I wish to ask both of the local authorities represented here about their experiences in working with the Land Development Agency. I will go to Meath County Council first. What Land Development Agency, LDA, sites are active in Meath, and what engagement does the council have with the LDA?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
We are actively working with the LDA on a particular site in Navan. Obviously, our involvement as a local authority is down to the fact that we have to make the application for the affordable housing fund. We are working away on that to deliver 50 units hopefully next year. There are some legal complexities to this in that there would be direct sale arrangements involved. The actual construction agreement is between the LDA and the developer concerned. We will be administering the application. That essentially is the way it is going to work. We are processing the grant application with the Department in relation to that. We are also procuring a system to handle the applications, which we hope to havein situbefore the end of the year so they can be advertised, and then work ahead on that new scheme in the new year.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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It is not a new agency but we reconstituted it slightly last year. These things take time to settle in and bed in, as with the affordable housing schemes also. Does Mr. Lynch find that the LDA is approachable, for example with regard to that site, to say "How can we work together on this"? Is it at that stage yet in terms of how things are working?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
We are pursuing affordable housing through a number of channels. Obviously, we work with the LDA on larger sites. We would also be looking for smaller turnkey properties with local developers. We have an ongoing expression of interest process to bring in opportunities to look at. We would look at any site that comes to our attention to see which would work best from the social and affordable aspects.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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As an indicator to me, what would the council consider to be a large site and consider to be in LDA territory, and what would it consider a small site?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I have a similar question to Kildare County Council representatives. How does the council interact with the LDA?
Ms Annette Aspell:
The LDA has a site in Naas for which it has just recently received planning permission for 219 units. On that site they are looking to deliver a mix of cost-rental and affordable housing. There will also be some Part V housing in that. We have met with the LDA just to have an initial discussion about what they would like to see delivered there. They will need the council's assistance in the delivery of the affordable purchase on that site. We have been actively speaking with the LDA about that. Through a call for affordable development units earlier in the year, there is some interest from developers in Kildare for developing affordable units. The LDA is in conversation with developers about pursuing those opportunities.
We are learning to communicate in this regard and the lines of communication are certainly improving. We are getting to know each other and things are developing.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is good to hear. I have some questions on cost rental and the figures. Considering that both councils here today are two local authorities that have seen massive population growth, and what could be considered a sprawl of Dublin pressure out into Meath and Kildare over the years and associated traffic congestion problems that go with this and the long commutes, I am interested in how we can improve densities and designs. For me, this is part of climate action now: how can we get higher density with what designs? When the councils look at a social housing scheme or an affordable housing scheme, what kinds of densities are the councils aiming for in those? I will put this question first of all to the council representatives from Meath.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
The standard density around the county would be approximately 35 units per hectare. The scheme we are just about to go to construction on, and on which we are completing the tender process, would be at a maximum of 50 units, which is probably the highest level we could go up to in the county. This would be a mixture of one-bedroom, two-bedroom, and three-bedroom units and some apartments as well. As the committee may be aware, 80% of our demand is for one-bedroom and two bedroom units, in the context of the housing waiting lists. While the one-bedroom units are probably not coming forward from the private market as much, we are trying to include them as much as we possibly can in the roll-out of the schemes, while also getting the higher densities. In discussions with the Department we are always looking to maximise the densities on any given site for any project we bring forward. There is always a bit of exchange of views to see what is the most we can get high while leaving a reasonable amount of green space on the site as well. There is certainly a drive to maximise densities.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When we get into the affordability question, does the cost per unit increase the higher one goes? Does the council see the three or four storey duplex as the ideal design?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I put the same question to Kildare County Council.
Ms Annette Aspell:
The situation would be pretty much the same in Kildare. We are looking at somewhere around 35 units per hectare but possibly pushing the envelope up to 50 units in some locations, where we can. It does depend on the site and what we can deliver on it, and the cost per unit is always a factor in our discussions with the Department, along with sustainable communities, in ensuring that we are delivering a sustainable model.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I just have one minute left to speak. I will ask the question and perhaps the witnesses will come back with the answers in the next round. On the figures for cost rental, Meath had a figure of 151 on page 3 of its submission where it spoke about cost rental. The figure for affordable provision was 151 units over the period of the housing delivery action plan. It is anticipated that the majority of the units would be for affordable purchase. Perhaps the witnesses will come back to me on that figure for cost rental provision in Meath.
The Kildare figure for social and affordable was 219 - at Devoy Barracks, which is an LDA site. Does Kildare County Council have the breakdown on what is cost rental, private, social and affordable and all of that? There is a figure also of 242 under the approved housing bodies for delivery under the cost rental equity loan, CREL, but there is no figure for the local authority direct provision of cost rental units.
I am out of time. I must be as strict on myself as I am on others. Perhaps the witnesses will come back in the third round with the answers to those questions. I will move on now to the Labour Party speaking slot and Senator Mark Wall is very welcome to the committee.
Mark Wall (Labour)
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I thank the Chairman. I thank my colleague, Senator Rebecca Moynihan, for allowing me to be part of the Kildare festival of questions that my other colleagues have had answered so far. I welcome Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell to the meeting today. I also thank our colleagues from Meath.
I put my congratulations and thanks to the staff of the housing section of Kildare County Council. It is very important that we as members acknowledge the job they do, day in and day out. It is a very difficult job and it is getting much more difficult each day. They are always at the end of the phone and they are always there to help. I would like Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell to bring it back to the staff in the housing section that we value them and we value what they do for us as public representatives. As bad as our job is at the moment, theirs is not a job I would particularly like now given the amount of people who are ringing them day in and day out. We get a lot of calls but I am sure the housing section in the council is getting them as well. I just wanted to put this on the record.
Some of the questions have been asked already but I wish to recap on some of them.
The first is the issue of tenants in situ, which has been asked already. Are we running into problems with the end of the year? Will we be in a position to close the sales the councils have initiated? I thank the staff who have done that because it is very rewarding and comforting for those who know they will be in a social house coming into the new year. Are there any issues with that? Do we need an extension from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to allow those sales to go through? In conversations I have had there have been issues with banks etc. in getting deeds etc., so that is an issue. The witnesses might comment on that.
Ms Aspell has given us a comprehensive list of vacant properties through her responses and her presentation. We chase that up daily. I have spoken to the council's staff members. Is Kildare getting enough support from the Department to bring those voids or empty houses back into use as family homes? It is an issue I get calls on, and I am sure Deputy Patricia Ryan beside me gets calls on it regularly. People are not seeing houses in their estates. The witnesses might comment on that.
The witnesses spoke about affordable housing earlier in the meeting. Where does Kildare stand in that regard? Many people I deal with are looking to purchase their own houses. It is an issue I have spoken to the council about on numerous occasions. Is the council getting the support from the Department to have the staff necessary for affordable housing and its delivery? The witnesses might comment on that.
Then there is the land needed to build houses, which is the road we should go down. Has Kildare County Council identified such land? Again, is it getting the support to purchase such land? Most important to me, coming from the very south of Kildare, is whether the council has identified land in the south that can become homes in the likes of Monasterevin, Rathangan, Kildare town and across to Castledermot and the town of Athy.
To speak about tenants, Kildare County Council is putting out the air-to-water scheme at the moment, and that seems to be rolled out very well, but how much of that is happening? How many tenants has the council identified the scheme will be available to this year?
The question of windows and doors is an old chestnut of mine. Is there a scheme the council has launched for tenants this year as well? It is an issue in keeping our own stock up to the best possible standard. That is a question I am asked regularly.
I have a question about the general grants, that is, the housing aid and housing adaptation grants. Again, I thank the council's staff, who do an amazing job in that regard. I have raised this a couple of times in these Houses in the context of the current standards and the current limits. Is that happening? People are not able to fill out grants because the limit is simply not big enough. The €30,000 limit for the housing adaptation grant does not seem to be enough, given the serious rise in building costs. Is that coming across the desks of Kildare County Council's staff?
Specifically, on the great town of Athy, with which the witnesses will be very familiar, and the Dominican lands and the Ardrew lands it is developing there, they are very welcome developments, but where are they at the moment?
Finally, Kildare County Council is about to deliver two Respond projects in Glebelands and in Flinters, in Athy. May I ask in the time I have left about the council's relationship with voluntary housing associations? Is the council happy it is getting the response from Respond not only in this case but in voluntary housing associations in general?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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There were quite a number of questions there, Senator, but I will still have to keep you to seven minutes. If the witnesses wish to start on the questions, we can probably get back to the rest of the answers later.
Ms Annette Aspell:
I thank Senator Wall for acknowledging our staff in housing. I will certainly pass that on. It is much appreciated.
As for the issue with tenants in situand trying to acquire units, we require the approval of the Department, as I mentioned earlier, and we will do everything we can to ensure that those properties are purchased. I can give the Senator my assurance on that. If we need to discuss it further with the Department, we will. It is our aim to get those properties secured.
As for turnaround of vacant properties and support from the Department, we get voids funding each year. A lot of it is from our own revenue budget, as the Senator will know, but we get some funding from the Department, for which we are grateful. That is set as to what properties are to be done, so the criteria are already established. We are in agreement with the Department, we make a submission and the Department approves it, so we are getting some funding there, but that funding model is to change. Whether it will change in 2023 or 2024 I am not 100% sure, but we are moving from a voids programme to asset management. That work is ongoing in the background, so we are moving away from the current model.
As for affordable housing, we recently received confirmation of approval of three staff members to be assigned to that team, so that recruitment is ongoing. We are very grateful for that approval. It is not the total number of staff we asked for, but it is a start and we will get that section up and running and moving forward.
As Senator Wall will know, land is a key issue for us, and trying to secure additional land for our landbank is probably the number one issue we try to address in respect of our future housing programmes. We have purchased two sites this year, one of which is in Kildare town, so that site will come into our programme. We are probably facing a situation in which a lot of the acquisition we will have will be brownfield as opposed to greenfield sites because it is just not really feasible for us to compete in the latter market. However, we will keep looking for anything we can add to our landbank.
As for the energy retrofit programme, the number is just 69 this year and 175 units last year, but that included the midlands programme. That is an area where we see a need to expand year on year. We are building a programme around the funding we are getting. I think the Senator will be aware that we ran into difficulty last year with the cost per unit. It was costing us about €10,000 above the limit. This year that gap has decreased to between about €2,000 and €3,000, which is good, but we are still not recouping everything we are spending on that programme, and there are certainly issues still to be addressed to make that programme run as smoothly as it could. There are more resources to go into that area. We will need to address how we will manage that, whether it is from our revenue budget or otherwise. This year we put €1 million aside for windows and doors, so that programme is ongoing at the moment. That is from our revenue budget.
As for housing aid and housing adaptation grants, I have not heard about the issue with the funding or people not being able to complete the works, but if there is more information on that, I ask the Senator to bring it to my attention and I will follow up on it. Just yesterday our councillors passed their budget and they increased the budget in respect of the housing adaptation grants for disabled persons for next year for our own stock. That is very welcome to carry on with that programme, which was a priority for the housing staff this year.
Ardrew is being developed under a PPP, so we are locked into a programme there in respect of the number of sites. I think there are seven local authorities in that programme. The PPP tends to move at the rate of the slowest within the bundle, but that programme is moving on to the design stage.
As for working with AHBs, I am not meant to get into talking about individual AHBs, but certainly the delivery in Kildare by AHBs under the Rebuilding Ireland programme was significant. We probably built up a lot of good relationships during that time. Respond, in particular, has delivered previously in Athy and is delivering more units there, so-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Thank you, Ms Aspell. I have to interrupt you there. We are up to nine minutes on that slot now. You did well to get through all those questions. I will move on to Deputy O'Callaghan.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank both local authorities for coming in and for the work done by their staff, which all of us very much appreciate.
I will start with Kildare County Council on the issue of land, which Ms Aspell was talking about. That is a key issue in trying to acquire more land. I think Ms Aspell said that the council would focus on acquiring brownfield sites and that greenfield would not be feasible for it. Could she expand on why that is the case? Is it too expensive? With whom is the council competing for greenfield? Can she tell us a bit more about that?
Ms Annette Aspell:
The issue is our inability to compete in the market in respect of the acquisition of greenfield sites. When we go to develop social housing on that, we have to be able to recoup the cost from the Department, so the cost per unit is a factor there. As to what we can afford to pay for land, we have always to be mindful of the end result and what we can actually build on the site and how we can recoup that cost. Otherwise, we will be carrying the acquisition cost of the land, which we could not afford to do. As for our ability to buy land in Kildare, the site I mentioned in Kildare town is a small town centre site bordering between greenfield and brownfield.
In the future, we will have to focus more on brownfield sites, and on acquiring sites within towns and putting sites together to develop them. That is probably where we are going to be able to afford to purchase. That is going to be the key.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of not being able to afford or compete on greenfield sites, are we talking about sites that are pretty much ready to go and are zoned for residential use? Is that where local authorities would look? What about more long-term land banking? Is that something that the Department will not fund because it is long term? What is the position on that?
Ms Annette Aspell:
The Department will not fund it until we start to bring it through the approval process. We have to be at stage 2 in the process of delivering a scheme before we get the recoupment from the Department. We would carry a cost for the longer term for the site. We would love to add sites to our land bank if we could, but the affordability issue has to be a key criterion in what we can deliver in the future.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Does the local authority not have the ability or the resources for the long term land banking pipeline for social or affordable homes that would be desirable?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The representatives of Meath County Council talked about needing to acquire 10 ha to meet the targets that it has. How many homes could be delivered on that 10 ha, give or take?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
That would represent around 350 homes. We have started with a couple of site purchases this year. We have bought one of more than 2 ha in Ashbourne. Like Kildare County Council, we are competing on the private market and it is expensive to acquire land, but we are working on it. On the delivery to 2026, we probably need approximately 10 ha of land with an average density of 35 houses on each to deliver on our programme. Approximately 350 homes could be delivered with that land. We have started that process in both Kells and Ashbourne with the two sites we have acquired.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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In the opening statement, reference was made to the fact that a much greater scale of land acquisition will be required to fully eliminate existing net need and pent-up demand. How much land is required to meet that need?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
If we are talking about net need and pent-up demand, we are up to approximately 1,900 households. In theory, if that figure is divided by 35, we would need around 50 ha of land. That would not all be local authority land. Some of it would be land belonging to private developers and some would come from AHBs. It would come from a number of different sources. That much land will probably be needed between 2026 and 2030. That is when that land will need to be acquired and ready for development.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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Does the local authority have the resources to meet the cost for the acquisition of that land, or does it need support from central government?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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There is a need to concentrate on what can be done in the next couple of years, but is it a particular challenge to engage in strategic land acquisition?
Ms Jackie Maguire:
In the past, local authorities were always able to forward fund land because there was a particular loan scheme in place. That no longer exists. It is a big issue for the local authorities in the greater Dublin area, but it will become an issue for most local authorities. As a sector, we have raised the issue with the Department and it is trying to examine ways in which local authorities can be aided financially to buy that strategic land bank. At this point in time, particularly in County Meath, we have built on all the land assets that we currently have and we are trying to acquire further assets. We can carry the cost for a certain period depending on how the cash flows are, but we cannot do that in the long term. In the past, we would have bought seven to ten years in advance. There is a space there now for local authorities, and as a sector we have to get back to somehow being able to do that. That takes a bit of thinking about new initiatives. The Department is working on something, but it has not come forward with it as yet. It is a significant issue that needs to be addressed.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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When was the loan scheme to forward purchase land discontinued?
Ms Jackie Maguire:
It was after the recession, so probably around 2009 or 2010. It was a specific scheme run by the Housing Finance Agency whereby local authorities could borrow the money and the interest was rolled up over a seven-year period. Issues relating to government debt and borrowing all feed into that. It is a complex area that the Department of Finance would have to feed into.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I do not agree with the decision that was made, but the era in which the decision was made was very different from the one we are in now. It is important that the Department examines the issue. While we need to concentrate most of our efforts on delivery on the next few years, we also have keep an eye on how we can deliver in the years after that to ensure good value for money. Other countries are good at land banking in advance. If it is done well, it also effectively releases money for community and other infrastructure that is needed. If local authorities are competing and paying for land at the top price, it pushes up the cost and constrains what can be done in delivering much-needed infrastructure.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the chief executives, Ms Maguire and Ms Kavanagh, and congratulate Ms Kavanagh on her appointment as the new permanent CEO in Kildare County Council. I wish her and her team well with what is not an easy task. I also wish to acknowledge Mr. McGowan, who was previously with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. He has made a good choice with Meath County Council. It is an accomplished operator.
I do not want to ask any questions; I just want to make a few comments. First, as a committee, we value the presence of the CEOs. Some might ask why we have invited them here today. It is important for the CEOs to put a face to our names and for us to do the same. I want to acknowledge the enormous difficulties and work that the CEOs and the front-of-house staff face in housing. It is an enormously challenging time. There are never enough resources and clearly there are not enough staff to meet the ongoing demands. As the witnesses will be aware, housing is a complex area. It touches on issues such as homelessness, domestic violence and issues affecting the Traveller community. It is more than just providing a roof over a person's head. It is important to acknowledge that. It is not always reflected in the skill sets among personnel in local authorities. That is not because the local authorities do not want them; it is because they just do not have the resources required for the nuanced tuning that is needed. Housing has become a complex issue, and I would like that to improve. As a committee, we are aware of that from the various organisations that have appeared before us and discussed the difficulties with housing.
Kildare and Meath are both interesting counties in that they are on the fringes of Dublin. Large numbers of people travel in and out of the two counties. That brings a lot of other challenges in respect of infrastructure, which is another issue in housing policy. People are choosing to live in Kildare and Meath, so there is great potential for new housing there, as there is in Fingal. It is important to highlight that. I also want to acknowledge the importance of the work of the local authorities in an ever-changing environment. Government policy changes and moves in different directions. Circulars, directions and announcements are issued regularly and it is quite difficult to keep up.
Many people want to check out their housing options. A comprehensive A to Z booklet was published recently by the Housing Agency, which is already out of date. That is not the agency's fault. If people are in severe difficulties, they want to meet and talk to someone. Sometimes people feel embarrassed or they feel that their difficulties are confidential, and they want to talk about their housing options. I do not know what resources the local authorities have in place for that.
In one of the four Dublin local authorities last week, I could not get an appointment for a person who has complex family issues and whose wife also has complex issues and social issues. They have enormous concerns and there is a difficulty in setting up a meeting for them. The biggest challenge for most of us in politics, as it is for our guests, is managing people's expectations. We must be honest with people. It is terrible to tell people they are on a list with 3,000 or 4,000 others waiting for housing. Politicians do not like telling people that and I am sure our guests do not like doing so. However, we have a duty and responsibility to manage people's expectations in respect of housing. The housing assistance payment is available and there are other opportunities. People may say that they will not be safe or secure if they do not get a council house and that it is the best option because they will never be thrown out of a council home. They might say their rents are controlled and it is, therefore, the best option and, happy days, perhaps in a few years' time, they can buy out their home. It is not always as simple as that, as our guests know as well as I do.
I will leave the following with our guests. I am not asking them to respond today but they might think about it. Do they have the teams, skill sets and people in place to meet the needs not of everyone, which clearly cannot be done, but of people who are in crisis? Such people need someone with whom they can talk through their options for housing and tenancy. Some of these people may have gone through a system and handed back a house. They may have been thrown out of or abandoned a house. There is a range of such issues. I want to leave our guests with that thought. I congratulate and thank them. Theirs is not an easy task and we are aware of that. I wish them well.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Perhaps Ms Maguire will comment on the question about resources.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
I thank the Senator for his comments. We have a settlement team in place to deal with the crisis cases to which he referred. The team is skilled and trained. Dealing with people with complex issues requires a certain level of ability. A certain level of training is undergone in that regard. We are currently operating appointments. People may have to wait for a day or two depending on the level of demand. Most cases are brought to our attention by a public representative. That is more than likely to be the case. It is unusual for such cases to come to our attention as a result of someone walking in off the street. Homeless cases are more likely to come to our attention in that way. Others who have been ousted from a home can find themselves in a situation that is new, strange and different to them. We have a settlement team in place comprising staff members who are adequately trained.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
I thank the Senator for his comments. We will take a note of the issues he raised. Our position is similar to that outlined by Ms Maguire. We have specific staff with specialist skill sets to help people to navigate their way through the process. They are assisted in respect of the various options available if they are looking for emergency accommodation or difficult situations such as that. We have those skill sets within our teams in housing.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives of Meath and Kildare county councils for being with us to help with our body of work around the implementation of Housing for All. I will ask first about social housing targets and delivery. Kildare County Council has a build target of 370 units for this year. Will it meet that target?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I ask the same question of the representatives of Meath County Council. I note a figure of 290 units on the council's submission to the committee but its housing delivery action plan targets 413 units. I take it the council is not going to meet its housing delivery action plan numbers if it is presenting a target of 290 to the committee.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The council expects to meet that target of 340.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The council is on course to achieve the overall target but the mix may be different than intended.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is fine. My next question relates to leasing. Meath County Council delivered 214 units through leasing in the period from 2018 to 2021 and 104 units are intended for 2022 and 2023. Kildare County Council delivered 447 units through leasing in the period from 2018 to 2021 and 348 units are earmarked for 2022 and 2023. I have asked a number of local authorities about the benefits of the leasing programme that was in place and is now being phased out. The committee will be making recommendations as part of its work. My question to both local authorities is whether they would be in favour of the reintroduction of the enhanced leasing scheme, particularly in light of the fact that we have seen a drop-off in commencements in some spaces dependent on private sector delivery, particularly in the case of higher density units. All of our guests' colleagues responded in favour of same. Will they give an indication of their preferences? If they do not agree, I would be interested to hear their opinions.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
The scheme certainly provided opportunities and brought through some units that would not otherwise have come through. That was certainly the case in recent years. It is important to note that mortgage to rent would be included as part of leasing. That is an important stream to keep going. I do not anticipate the scheme disappearing entirely but we have not included it in our targets beyond 2023 because Housing for All intends for it to be phased out.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is correct. If it were to be reintroduced, would Mr. Lynch welcome it?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What is Ms Aspell's opinion?
Ms Annette Aspell:
My response will be similar to that of my colleague. In Kildare, we have not had a tradition of delivering units for social housing through leasing but there was a leasing programme under Rebuilding Ireland through which we successfully delivered units. As Mr. Lynch said was the case in Meath, there were opportunities through leasing that would not have come to us otherwise. That delivered additional units.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Aspell expand on that point? It is important.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Okay. It is not as if those units would have come available to Kildare County Council. The fact that the leasing option was in place allowed the council the benefit of those units.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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An area in which I and the entirety of the country has an interest is vacancy and dereliction. It gets on people's nerves when they see vacant and derelict properties at a time of such need. The Croí Cónaithe scheme has been launched. Kildare County Council has 11 applications thus far under that scheme. Has Meath County Council received any such applications?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Has the council had calls from people expressing an interest, aside from the applications that have been lodged? Have people been looking for information in respect of the scheme?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Neither of the local authorities has utilised the repair and lease scheme to any great extent. It has been used for only a single unit in each local authority. Kildare County Council has had 23 applications under that scheme and Meath County Council has had ten. That represents a poor conversion rate. Why is that the case?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Has the county council projects in the system at the moment?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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When someone makes that query, does the county council make them aware of the fact that €60,000 per unit is delivered to them and it is not per property? One could deliver three units within a single property, and receive up to €180,000 towards the upfront cost of that. Is that made clear?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is interesting that Fingal County Council, which I would expect would attract higher costs, has delivered 28 units under this scheme. Can I ask Mr. Lynch or Ms Maguire for a response to this question, please?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Meath County Council has had 23 applications.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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My apologies Mr. Lynch, but Meath County Council has ten applications.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
The range was 30 but it is down to financing as far as we can see in many cases because people do not seem to find the scheme that attractive when they go through it. We have only had one that ultimately followed through until completion. It was originally launched at the same time as the home renovation incentive scheme which seemed a whole lot more attractive to people because it was tax back rather than an interest-free loan. When supply is tight, a permanent 20% reduction in market rent may not be that attractive but we found that in moving on vacancy, the buy and renew scheme has been much more attractive-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Meath County Council has been successful with 55 units in that case. My time is up but I may get the opportunity to come back on the second round. I thank the Chairman.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Senator Cummins and now call Deputy Guirke. He has seven minutes.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Ms Maguire, Mr. McGowan and Mr. Lynch. It is good to see them here, together with members of Kildare local authority. I congratulate them on the housing developments they have delivered upon in the past number of years. As we all know, the biggest issue in Meath is probably rents and the price of houses. The only way we can get those prices down is to build more houses. The direct-build with the council is something that would be very important to me. Between the years 2022 to 2026 we will only build 20 houses per year more than we did from 2018 to 2021. What can we do to get those numbers up, where in Meath we probably have approximately 4,500 people on the local authority housing list? It is hard to see how we can get on top of a housing crisis if we do not get a much higher direct-build from the council. My first question is how do we go about getting that figure higher?
Has Meath County Council identified land. I am aware that it has some land of its own but has it identified land to buy and in which areas of the county does it intend to mostly build from now until 2026? I agree with Deputy O’Callaghan that borrowing to build, or even to buy the land, seems like a great strain on local authorities. If the Department came up with that money first, it would make a great difference, and would give the local authority more room to do other things within the local authority.
On the housing assistance payment, HAP, tenants who have been given notice to quit, is the local authority buying these houses and is this much of an issue at the moment?
Furthermore, what kind of a budget has the council for the repair of its own housing stock? I am aware that Meath County Council has a very significant housing stock of approximately 3,600 houses and there is a great deal of maintenance needed on those houses every year. Will more help be needed from the Department to deal with such costs?
Are we building one-bedroom houses? This is a big issue because the people who are on the housing list the longest, as we all know, are seeking one-bedroom houses. If we are not building one-bedroom houses, are we looking at the option of giving these people a two-bedroom house, if we do not have the option of building one-bedroom houses?
On the housing grants, we all know that the housing grants for people with disabilities are great and are a very significant help to people, whether adapting showers, and so forth. What kind of a budget do we have for windows and doors?
There are a few housing bodies building houses in County Meath at the moment and I see that one of them has gone into receivership. Will that delay the delivery of those houses and if so, can Meath County Council indicate by how long?
The Taoiseach said this week that the thresholds for eligibility for social housing in local authorities will be increasing by €5,000. Does this apply to County Meath and when will this be open to applicants?
In addition, how much money has the county council received from the Department this year, has it been spent and is the county council receiving enough funding to deal with the housing situation in County Meath? I thank our guests again for coming in to appear before the committee.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I believe these questions are directed towards Meath County Council.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
I will start in any event, a Chathaoirligh. This is all about supply and we certainly need to increase the level of it. We have been developing out all of our own land and we have a couple of fairly large schemes coming in Ashbourne and in Farganstown in Navan. The housing delivery action plan itself shows where we are targeting in respect of individual settlements. In particular, we can see that there would be a particular constraint in Ashbourne, as one example, where a great deal of building has not been happening. We have acquired a site there where we are also building on the former Department of Education site which we bought. We concluded that sale there last year. We are certainly targeting settlements with the biggest population and the greatest need.
We are also looking to include one-bedroom houses in our schemes where possible. We have to include a mix in any event, but 80% of our demand is between one-bedroom and two-bedroom houses. In some cases, we might have considered a two-bedroom application, depending on the circumstances, but we are also trying to increase the number of one-bedroom houses as a matter of course in our schemes.
The Deputy mentioned HAP tenants’ notices to quit. We have to look at those on a case-by-case basis because even though the landlord may have given a notice to quit, they may not necessarily want to sell the house to a local authority and may want it for a family member, or for themselves, in which case the purchaser solution would not work. If we can find an alternative to direct purchase, we will as well, if we can work through an allocation, because sometimes people will be in HAP for a very short space of time. There would could be a slight anomaly in that someone may only be in the system for two years and someone may be on the list for ten years, so one has to try to balance all of those considerations when doing this.
The house would obviously also have to be subject to survey and should be up to rental standards, but there is always a timeline before it is inspected. If one was suddenly buying the house within six months of an allocation, one would have to go in to see if it was suitable for an acquisition. There are, therefore, a number of considerations and we look at it on a case-by-case basis. We are hopeful that the moratorium on evictions will also slow that down a bit.
We have also been focusing on getting families who are in long-term emergency accommodation out into acquisitions. This is being tackled on a number of fronts.
On windows and doors, while we do a certain amount of them each year, we will certainly use the allocation for priority medical needs first. There will be approximately €2.9 million of an allocation each year for disabled grants, adaptation and mobility grants, and so on and so forth. Sometimes, we receive an additional allocation each year and we may also be able to do some windows and doors, but medical priority has to come first, where people who need to be discharged from hospital will always receive priority. We used the funds available to the best effect for that.
I notice that there is one particular approved housing body development mentioned by the Deputy, where the contractor building it has actually gone into examinership. Works are still ongoing on site in that particular case. It was a developer who employed the contractor, so the developer has taken over responsibility. We expect them to complete out this project and they have undertaken to do so. We hope that that will continue and will be delivered. The timeframe for that is that this development should be done by the middle of next year, one way or another. That is our expectation based on what we have been told so far, in any event.
The eligibility for social housing in local authorities' threshold in the media reports I have seen on this would suggest that change is being made from January of next year.
We expect that will increase the number of people who will be eligible. The social housing list will go up based on that. Some people who are now borderline will certainly qualify.
We claim departmental funding in arrears, as we go along. Every month, we make claims for any scheme we do, be it for direct construction by the council or CALF funding we have advanced to an AHB. We are working away in that regard. There does not seem to be any shortage of capital at departmental level. We are maximising what we can draw down under the different programmes. As we go through the process, we pay out the funding and claim it back straight away.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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On direct-build numbers, is there any hope of getting that figure higher? It is hard to see how the council will tackle the number of people on the housing list. The target for 2026 is 1,350. Could that be higher if there was more funding?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
It is a question, to which we referred earlier, of acquiring suitable sites. We are constantly looking for suitable sites where we can deliver housing. The housing delivery action plan, which is based on national guidelines, proposes a 60:40 split between direct construction by the council and delivered by AHBs. We are looking for more direct construction projects, and if we find them, we will do them, including sites.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The order is the last Fine Gael slot will be taken by Senator Cummins, followed by the third round of Senator Martin, myself and Deputy Gould. If members want to come back in, I can put them down for the third round.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I do not think my colleague is on line. I will continue from where I left off on the vacancy and dereliction issue. Meath County Council has been successful with the buy and renew scheme. How has the council gone about that? Did it use a carrot-and-stick approach with compulsory purchase orders, CPOs? A total of 13 CPOs have been actioned in recent years. How has that worked?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
As to the buy and renew scheme, many of the units were obtained by agreement rather than by CPO. We tend to use CPOs as a last resort, because the outcome can be uncertain. If there are issues, such as with a site where the title is dubious, a CPO can certainly be used in such cases and it cleans up the case. In the vast majority of cases, we have entered into negotiations with the property owners once identified. They have been more interested in the sale option rather than leasing their property to us. We have pursued those and they are included in our build numbers because significant reconstruction and refurbishment are involved in them. They are effectively a new build by the time we are finished with them.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Kildare County Council has similar vacancy rates. It also similar regarding the repair and lease scheme in that there has been limited uptake. The council has not had as much activity in the buy and renew scheme or the CPO space. Why is that, because there is certainly vacancy and dereliction in Kildare? While the rates may be lower than in some areas, one cannot say they do not exist.
Ms Annette Aspell:
We have progressed 11 properties through the buy and renew scheme, from which - similar to the case in Meath County Council - significant refurbished projects have arisen. That work is ongoing, while some of it is complete. We have brought three CPOs through the process using the buy and renew scheme. We used these as a template to see how the process would work for us. In terms of CPOs, we have another six properties advertised as of today, with 13 properties waiting to be progressed.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is on the CPO side. I misread the submission. I thought those figures were in the context of buy and renew. Six are in progress and 13 are awaited.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What has worked well in my county of Waterford is the carrot-and-stick approach taken in CPOs versus making them aware of the other schemes, such as repair and lease, which has delivered 165 units - 50% of the national total. When I see a single unit in both the Kildare and Meath local authorities, more needs to be done in that space. It frustrates people to see vacancy and dereliction, and rightly so, in their towns, villages and urban areas.
I refer to affordable housing, the targets for which in 2022 are 15 and 10 in Kildare and Meath, respectively. What stage are the councils at in achieving those targets for 2022 and 2023?
Ms Annette Aspell:
We are not going to meet our 2022 target this year. We are working towards combining our 2022 and 2023 targets. We do not have our team in place. As I said earlier, we recently got approval for the allocation of staff, and that recruitment is ongoing. The team should be up and running at the beginning of next year.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Have either council sought expressions of interest from the market in the delivery of turnkey affordable units?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
Yes, we have. There was little interest when we put out the request early in the year. It was only later in the year, in the autumn really, that turnkey properties have come up and we have started working with developers. We had the request up for a number of months, but nothing much was coming our way in that regard.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The environment has changed and other local authorities have fed into that. What sort of interest has there been in Meath and Kildare in delivering affordable housing using a turnkey model? This model seems to be the quickest way the councils can achieve their targets.
Ms Annette Aspell:
Our experience is similar. Earlier in the year, through expressions of interest, we were not getting anything in respect of social or affordable delivery. However, in the past month, we have started to receive engagement with developers that are interested in affordable delivery. We will progress those projects hopefully.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear. The councils have said they will set up their systems for the interchange between the LDA piece, which is important. Unfortunately, from the experience I had in Waterford, there are advantages and disadvantages to being up first, in that some of the issues are experienced first-hand. One of the issues is the fact that a process is being sold rather than a product. That needs to be built into the both councils' plans so that when they get turnkey units, they should put a resource in place to advertise it, in the same way a private developer would advertise a scheme. I appreciate the councils may not have a budget for that, but it is a necessity. Is it correct that Meath County Council used the single-stage process for the delivery of units?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That has not been used by many local authorities. I would like feedback on how the council found that process. There is often criticism of the four-stage approval process. Projects can be delivered through a single-stage process. I assume there are risks in the single-stage process, but the council has overcome them.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
Yes, we have done a couple of small-scale projects through that process. The key risk probably is a financial one in terms of coming upon something unknown on the site. The Department will show some flexibility to address that type of issue at tender stage. If it comes up after that, it may be something that will sit with the local authority. If we can identify all the issues before we get to tender, the single-stage process can work. It is not unnecessarily quicker. One has to do a good bit more work to get to the first stage. However, it certainly can work and it has been suitable for a couple of smaller, age-friendly types of projects.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Has Kildare County Council utilised the single-stage process?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is interesting. I thank the witnesses.
Vincent P Martin (Green Party)
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I thank the senior officials from the local authorities for their attendance. It is appropriate that the councils represented are those of Meath and Kildare because the two counties have much in common and have dovetailing interests. Apart from the counties' proximity, many of the challenges they face are the same. I will concentrate in my remarks on my home county of Kildare. Our guests are no strangers to me and I am not surprised they have exceeded their targets. I congratulate Ms Kavanagh on her recent appointment as CEO. I was pleased on a personal level to see her succeed to that job. I saw at first hand and up close the input she had as a senior director in dealing with an obstacle that was there for years in regard to the De Burgh lands. We now have one of the best urban parklands in Ireland, thanks in no small way to Ms Kavanagh and Ms Aspell. They are both very well respected in their fields.
Kildare County Council has exceeded its targets, as I said. On a normal day, that would be really special but, without meaning any disrespect, it slightly pales into insignificance due to the crisis we face. The witnesses probably are not getting the credit they deserve for meeting their targets. The council has put forward projections for the years to come. Given that impressive track record, is there any chance we can ask counties that are exceeding their targets to extend them and excel further? I am not asking the witnesses to commit to that today but will they indicate whether they are all the time looking around to top the poll and be leaders in the current crisis? Are their projections, in fact, ever so slightly conservative? That is my first question.
As I noted, Kildare County Council not only reached its projections but went over them by a few hundred. However, no local authority cost-rental provision has been set out in its action plan. Will the witnesses elaborate on the reason they gave for that and indicate whether it might change once staffing resources are increased? That question might also be relevant to the witnesses from Meath. How do our guests appraise and see the future of the Vienna model, which, in my view, can be a lifeline for many? I would love to see it being used much more. All things being equal, does Kildare County Council have plans in that regard?
My final question is for the witnesses from both authorities. Given the crisis, is there room to think outside the box in terms of dereliction? Are there approaches that might not be obvious? I am thinking, for example, of the former Red House Hotel in Naas. The witnesses from Kildare County Council might comment on that or perhaps talk to me about it after the meeting. I do not want them to put them on the spot and I understand if they do not want to address it today. There is huge potential in that site. All housing that can be delivered is needed. This is the sort of momentous project involving an unused building that needs money to complete it.
I am sorry if my questions have not concentrated enough on issues to do with my neighbours in Meath. As I said at the outset, it is wonderful to have the witnesses from both authorities at the meeting. It is a good exercise to have them here. They have both done well but, to put it in a nice way, it keeps everyone on their toes to have this type of engagement. I hope the Chairperson will continue that engagement and we will have the witnesses back here again and, we hope, reporting more positive progress. Let the word go out to every local authority that its representatives may have to come before the committee. We represent Ireland and it is important to be aware that this crisis does not recognise county borders or provinces. I thank the witnesses for their contributions. I had other questions but they were stolen by previous speakers and ably answered by our guests.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
I thank the Senator for his questions and kind comments. Regarding the projections for the new programme, there is a possibility we could exceed them. We have discussed land, which is one of the key constraints on us in pushing past the current targets. Into the future, past the current programme, the availability of zoned and serviced land certainly will be an issue for us. I pass the question on cost-rental delivery to my colleague, Ms Aspell.
Ms Annette Aspell:
I thank Senator Martin for his questions. We did not include cost-rental provision in our initial housing delivering action plan. We were mindful that approved housing bodies were delivering such provision in the county. They have done so successfully to date and we hope that will continue. In addition, then LDA is planning to deliver cost-rental housing in Naas, as the Senator knows. When we have our affordable housing team in place at the beginning of next year, I would like it to have a look at this area. We need to do some research before we determine what such delivery will look like for us. We certainly will push on with affordable acquisition in the meantime and we do not discount cost-rental delivery. We certainly will look at it.
On dereliction, I mentioned that we are setting up a town regeneration team within the housing department, which will involve a significant piece of work for that team. It will build on the buy and renew, repair and release and Croí Cónaithe schemes and the town regeneration fund. All of those aspects will come together within the team and we will drive on with that next year. We might discuss offline the particular property the Senator referenced, if that is okay.
Vincent P Martin (Green Party)
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I thank Ms Aspell.
Mr. Dara McGowan:
The Senator asked about thinking outside the box in regard to dereliction. One of the problems with compulsory purchase orders on derelict sites is that there is a cost to them and a cost related to the property afterwards. One of the actions we have taken in Meath is to use the urban regeneration and development fund to acquire large tracts of derelict land or buildings, with the intention to avail of further funding to develop them as community housing properties or for commercial use. That is an avenue we went down.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. McGowan. I will take the next slot. The committee did a substantial report last year on urban regeneration, one of the recommendations of which was that a target be set for local authorities to deliver on the repair and lease or buy and renew schemes as part of their social housing provision. If we were to set such a target, would it provide greater impetus for local authorities to deliver on it? Of course, they would have to do so if it were set down as a policy by the Government. Do the witnesses think it would work? I ask the representatives from Meath County Council to respond first.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
Setting targets is always good. We are making traction in some cases where we would not have done so in the past. Particularly for private owners, it is more about offering a carrot that will encourage them to invest their own money as well as whatever State aid can be given to them. An important consideration is the level of control and influence the local authority could have. Setting targets is always good, as I said, but we need to be sure we can achieve them and be realistic about what we are doing. As a sector, we certainly would be interested in working with the committee on how realistic targets could be set and achieved.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I put the same question to the witnesses from Kildare County Council.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
To follow on from Ms Maguire, the good thing about the current programme and targets has been the acknowledgement that resources are required to deliver those targets. That has been helpful for us to deliver them. Funding has been provided and appropriate resources have been sanctioned to deliver the targets.
As part of our work on town regeneration, it would be good in our pilot towns to look at the suite of options available, to get to know the various property owners and their properties and to know what they are interested in when working with us to regenerate the areas. We are looking forward to the new year and getting to work in particular towns, seeing how the various options work and pushing them through the system to see what comes out of it.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I have about ten question, so I will be brief. I will probably contribute again in the next round. I hear what has been said about encouragement and taking a carrot approach with building owners. We have a housing crisis and a substantial amount of vacancy and dereliction for various reasons. It is not a simple issue. Those who say it is a simple issue do not know what they are talking about. There are many reasons for buildings and homes being vacant. The figures cited range from 160,000 down to 60,000, but somewhere in between lies the truth. We need to apply the stick as well because people will often leave a building vacant and derelict and do nothing with it because there are no consequences. I know Dublin City Council introduced a zero rebate for commercial rates last night. People are now charged full commercial rates on a vacant building. What are the commercial rates on vacant buildings in Kildare and Meath?
Ms Jackie Maguire:
It is still 100%. Our budget meeting is next Monday and the rate will probably remain at 100%. We have looked at it from the opposite perspective. We have a business support scheme that ratepayers benefit from, provided they pay their rates in full, within which there are certain thresholds. Next year, we will introduce an economic regeneration scheme, provided members approve it at our budget meeting. This will encourage the bringing back into use of commercial buildings that have lain vacant for two or more years. Owners will get an economic regeneration grant based on a sliding scale that will be connected to their rates. It is not a rates rebate or a rate fund, although it is connected to it.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That sounds interesting. Will Ms Maguire send us a note on it? It is in the area of what we are seeking as regards urban regeneration. What rate does a vacant building In Kildare incur?
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
There is 100% vacancy relief, which was confirmed at our budget meeting yesterday. We have given a commitment to councillors that we will look at a similar type of process, to reduce the vacancy relief and offer some form of an incentive for property owners. We will be doing something similar.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Can I clarify that? Ms Kavanagh called it a 100% vacancy relief. In other words, that is a commercial rate of zero.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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There is no rate charged for a vacant building.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
I will make one comment on vacancy, commercial rates and 100% relief in cases of vacancy. If the legislation could be changed to allow us to do that in either a street-specific or value-specific way, it would be much more operable. It must be done at municipal district or county level. There are restrictions due to the legislation. If the legislation could be made more specific, it would generate more of a stick approach.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Ms Maguire means it should apply to town centre sites only, rather than sites that are out of town and have no prospects.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Similar to the vacant site levy, should sites be identified where vacancy relief would be 100%, as it is currently, and a sliding scale would be used for sites where there is much more demand and prospects? Do the councils need something along those lines?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When such schemes are being introduced, it is important to flag them in advance because we want them to work. I am out of time.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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These meetings are very important to give us an insight and develop strategies that will help us and the councils solve the housing emergency. I have one question I ask every local authority, which is slightly to one side but is an important issue for people who go into recovery and are on the housing waiting list. If they go into recovery for three, six or 12 months, are they suspended from or taken off the housing list?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am the Sinn Féin spokesperson for addiction, recovery and well-being. I was contacted by a person who went into recovery for six months. The local authority found out and suspended the claim until the person came out of recovery. I ask that this would not happen and that all local authorities would support people who are in recovery or in hospital. Would the two councils be positive towards that proposal?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is the net number of people on the housing list? What is the gross number of people on the housing list when those on the HAP, RAS and all other housing assistance payments are included?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does HAP include RAS figures?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The gross figure is about 6,250.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry. I thought Ms Aspell said there were 3,000 on the housing list.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about Meath County Council?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The gross figure is 4,000.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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My next question is on dereliction and the derelict site levy. Kildare County Council levied €125,800 and collected just €3,300. There seems to be more than €313,000 outstanding on 23 sites, as per the register of 31 December 2021. I do not have any figures for Meath County Council, which did not make any returns. There were 13 sites for compulsory purchase. I would like an update on dereliction figures.
I do not blame local authorities because I know CPOs are very expensive and are intensive work-wise, especially if a team is not in place. I maintain the Minister should have allocated adequate funding for local authorities to take on CPOs. At the same time, the Derelict Sites Act was passed in 1990, which is 32 years ago. Every site on the derelict site register should be paying the derelict site levy and every site that is derelict should be on the register.
What are the local authorities doing to collect the levies and to make sure every site is on the derelict sites list?
Mr. Dara McGowan:
At the moment, we have 34 sites on the derelict sites register and we have another 49 which are at the notice issued stage. We first issue a notice and we then dedicate resources to deal with those people and try to see whether they can bring improvements to their property before it goes onto the derelict sites register. Since we have done that in the last two or three years, it has been very successful. For most of the notices we now send, the properties are not brought back into use but they have been tidied up from an aesthetic point of view. When we make the derelict sites register, we charge the levy. There is currently just over €500,000 owed and, to date, we have not received anything. Generally, most of the cases we deal with involve elderly people who have a property, cannot afford to do anything with it or could not get a loan to do anything with it. Many people have properties that are in dispute, where one person wants to sell it and the other wants to keep it, or they could be in probate or in receivership, where the bank might have a certain charge on it. These cases turn out to be very complicated. We keep the levy on them. We are currently investigating with our law agent if we can put a charge on the property.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
We have a very similar situation to our colleagues in Meath. I do not have the figures in front of me for the derelict sites, although the Deputy called them out. What we are doing as part of the work of the town regeneration officer and that team is that the vacant housing officer will be working with the environment section to try to identify any properties that can actively be brought back into use for social housing. We are trying to put a focus on that and make use of that. We have had some success on that previously but we would have the same sorts of issues with particular sites in towns where there is no potential for using them as social housing.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I am conscious of time. The first thing I look for every year is the derelict sites register and how much is collected by each local authority. That legislation was passed 32 years ago and it should be enforced. If it cannot be enforced by a local authority, then the Minister should be notified as to why not. I have legislation that I am hoping to bring in along those lines. The whole country is blighted by dereliction. Even with landlords - or landholders, as I would call them - going in and doing it up or just painting it, we are in the middle of a housing emergency and I do not accept any excuses, to be honest. If people do not have the money to buy it or do it up, the property should be the subject of a CPO. If money is needed by local authorities, the Minister should be asked for that money. There are no excuses now for houses lying idle when we are in the middle of an emergency. If the councils need resources, they should ask and we will do everything in this committee to back them up. We know that for years the resources were not there but the Minister is saying they are there now. If the Minister is truthful in his word, he will give the councils whatever they need.
On another question, are there derelict sites teams in place to tackle dereliction? Are we talking about one person or multiple people? The same question applies to vacancy. I believe there should be a team in every local authority and that should be their sole job. I am not talking about a person doing three jobs - that should be their job.
Mr. Dara McGowan:
In regard to the team, we have a dereliction officer who is full-time and it is one person. He reports to an administrative officer, AO, who is a shared administrator. We have a vacant homes officer who is full-time. We are currently recruiting a town regeneration officer. We have brought the three of them together into one team to work together.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
With regard to derelict sites and CPO, we have issued CPOs for 13 of them and we have brought them back in under the social housing programme. The funding is there now to proceed through the CPO process and get funding in place for that. Also, through the new urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, we have had significant funding, as Mr. McGowan mentioned, and that has given us the funding to be able to acquire particular areas that are complete eyesores. We have also proceeded to try to acquire additional sites under that so we can package it up and put it either out to the market or out to ourselves to regenerate a whole area of a town centre. There is funding there, although I am saying it in a roundabout way. That has only been made available in the last couple of years but we are doing everything to make sure we are successful in acquiring that and securing the funding. We would all agree with the Deputy that dereliction a blight.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am going to move on. I have a list of questions. Does the derelict sites levy keep accumulating on a site? Every year, the local authorities apply the derelict sites levy. Does the owner of the site get a yearly contact to say “You now owe this much”?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Is it the same for Kildare?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I want to come back to Croí Conaithe. Mr. McGowan said Meath had only three. How many Croí Conaithe town and village applications were there in Kildare?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Mr. McGowan said something that worries me a lot. Croí Conaithe is translated as “living heart” and it was designed to bring life and living back to town centres. It was designed to reactivate or to assist people to bring vacant, derelict or over-the-shop units back into place. Mr. McGowan said he got three but he is expecting many more now that it has been expanded to the rural areas. To me, that is quite worrying because it undermines the entire objective of Croí Conaithe. Would Kildare County Council be of the same mind? Does it expect that this will be expanded to the rural areas to get a lot more interest?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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What I am hearing here is that a scheme that was introduced and designed for a certain purpose, a limited €50 million scheme to begin with, is now likely to be funding one-off rural housing. Those sites are currently vacant and unoccupied. I am concerned about that. Would that be how the witnesses would see this happen?
Mr. Dara McGowan:
There are two elements to Croí Conaithe, the serviced site and the refurbishment grant. Both of them were set in town centres with a population of 400 or more. The serviced site is still in that category and the refurbishment grant is still in that category, but there are a lot of vacant, derelict rural houses and they have extended out the refurbishment grant. It is only for a principal primary residence so it is not a house to be developed and left there, and the house has to be lived in afterwards. It is an opportunity to bring a lot of those houses back online which do not come under the other schemes because they are not in areas of social housing need.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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What I am saying is that a house that is not currently in use will now be inhabited and it would be essentially a one-off house.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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It has no carbon impact at the moment in terms of transport and so on.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Thank you. I am concerned about that.
With regard to the CPO powers that are available to the local authorities and the CPO process, is there anything we can do that would assist the local authorities?
Mr. Dara McGowan:
We currently CPO properties under two different strands - one is housing and the other is derelict sites. While I will not say the derelict sites is straightforward, it is a lot more straightforward because it can be done under friendly CPO or unfriendly, and we get to a certain point where we can just lodge the money with the courts and get the title. A lot of the titles are being disputed. The derelict sites is a much simpler process but it only works on derelict sites.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Is it similar in Kildare?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We can change the legislation in here. Are there parts of the legislation that the witnesses think are roadblocks and put them off going down this route unless it is absolutely necessary?
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
I would not have thought so. It is a complex process that requires a fair deal of consultation and advertisement, etc., to make sure one is putting information out there about what one will compulsorily purchase. I cannot imagine many shortcuts that would be available within the process itself. We are building up an expertise within the teams that are using that. It is very helpful that the same teams are repeating the process over and over again because they are building up a set of expertise within our local authorities. Heretofore, it would not have been used as often. Off the top of my head, I could not imagine that there would be many elements of it that we could circumvent or shortcut.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
It is powerful legislation for us. It is a little cumbersome and long, but one gets the result that one intended to set out for. If there is anything to look at – I am making the comment, but I would have to do a little research for the committee – it may be around the arbitration that takes place when a price cannot be agreed. We might look at where that might go forward. That can be quite protracted. There are arbitration rules, however, and it would be very hard to see how they could be changed at this point in time. It is very powerful legislation for us.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I have heard many people say it would be great if we could exceed the targets and deliver more social, public and private housing. Do such demands have the potential to unbalance the national planning framework, NPF? How do the witnesses assess their delivery as being compliant with the framework?
Ms Jackie Maguire:
That is a loaded question. I am happy to give a couple of comments on it. We have to adhere to the NPF. We all have core strategies within our development plans that we have to adhere to. Certainly, we would consider that we have sufficient land zoned in the right places. It is a matter of trying to build out. Maps were published as part of the newly introduced tax on zoned land, the aim of which is to encourage landowners to actually build out.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Yes.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
There are some tracts of land in County Meath that developers and owners have sat on for a period of time and have been zoned for housing for a period of time. Hopefully, the welcome legislation that has been introduced will encourage them. As part of our ongoing engagement with developers and owners, we have always said that it is a question of use it or lose it. The new legislation will come into place. Some people have reactivated their lands. I consider that we have sufficient zoned land. It is a matter of trying to encourage those who have the land zoned in the right places to commence building.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Does Ms Kavanagh want to comment on that?
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
As Ms Maguire said, we have to comply with the NPF. It is built into the hierarchy of plans within the overall planning policy. In the context of the current targets, and given that we are talking about the availability of land and putting a focus on town regeneration over the next few years, I suggest it may fall on local authorities to deliver the more complex sites, including brownfield sites, within our towns. We have to unlock sites in those areas to ensure we get consolidated development. We are hugely conscious of the requirement to develop sustainable communities, as has been mentioned. In the next few years, we will try to focus on those town regeneration areas and on our towns in general. We are definitely in compliance with the NPF and conscious of it.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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It would be an interesting exercise to look at Dublin and the counties in the greater Dublin area to see where we are at in terms of compliance with the growth set out in the NPF.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There are a few associated issues with delivery and maintenance of stock, if I could just diverge slightly. One of the advantages that the AHB sector would see in terms of cost rental, in particular, is that there is a sinking fund built into the calculations for the units for maintenance over a period of 30 or 40 years. Obviously, such a maintenance sinking fund does not exist in local authority stock, which is funded through the Local Government Fund and decisions from councillors as well. In terms of repair and maintenance of stock, what is the average turnaround for local authority stock from the point at which a unit becomes vacant to being tenanted again?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
The most recent figure for that, from 2021, is 39.3 weeks, which was an increase on previous figures. It suffered from the two Covid shutdowns. We are working to get that back again and we are working with our procedures internally to make sure that as soon as works are completed, the unit is allocated as quickly as possible.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is a major jump.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Some 22 weeks is probably average or better than average.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
There is a tender competition ongoing at the minute to procure that and roll it out through the sector. Over the course of the next year, local authorities will be getting into the middle of detailed stock condition surveys and cyclical maintenance planning. Up to now, it has all been reactive.
One of the things that has influenced our approach, in terms of length of time, is that we take the opportunity to do all possible works when a unit becomes vacant. We do not tend, as a sector, to work with peoplein situ. Once a house becomes vacant, we bring it up to the full energy retrofit standards and everything else. One could cut down, do the bare essentials and get them out more quickly, but ongoing maintenance costs are incurred fairly quickly if one does not do these works. Basically, once they are done up to the proper standard, they do not need to be touched for a number of years. It is a balance.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There is a balance.
Ms Annette Aspell:
We are in a very similar situation. Our turnaround time, according to the National Oversight and Audit Commission indicators that have just been published, has decreased. If memory serves me, it went down from 48.78 weeks to approximately 39 weeks. It has decreased in 2021 also. Again, similar to our colleagues in Meath, it is something that we are very mindful of and we are trying to address that situation. Similarly, we bring our properties up to the highest standard we can before we reallocate them, so it is quite a substantial amount of money.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is an exceptional length of time for a unit to remain vacant, given all of the associated elements with that. Is there a framework system in place?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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There is a framework system in place and it is still at 39 weeks. They do not go out in bundles-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Kildare County Council is introducing a framework.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Does Meath County Council have a framework in place?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
We have a maintenance framework in place but, again, we have capacity constraints on that. Like our counterparts in Kildare, we are looking to bundle works where we can and get them tendered out as well. There is a capacity issue as well, which means it takes a bit longer to do it. Certainly, we are looking at all of the parts of the process to try to streamline it and bring that number down.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Again, similar to the vacancy and dereliction on the private side of things, we must give a good example from the local authority side. These are the calls we always get as public representatives, concerning, for example, a council property that has been vacant for six months or a year. We must be acutely conscious of this type of situation in respect of leadership. If we are preaching one thing to the private sector and holding the stick of the CPO over its head and then somebody points out that the local authority has a unit vacant for 12 months, that is hard to explain.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Turning to allocation policy for units as they come on stream, either directly to the local authority or via AHB sector, is a choice-based letting, CBL, system operating in counties Meath and Kildare? What percentage, typically, of units would go on CBL?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Is there a reason it is so low? Is this a new system that has just been introduced and the number of units is being gradually increased in this regard?
Ms Annette Aspell:
It was introduced in the last few years. We have always had a low refusal rate in County Kildare, so the benefits of CBL were probably limited. In the last two years, however, the refusal rate has risen rapidly. We are now seeing added value in CBL, so we will be increasing the numbers in this context.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What level is it intended to get to?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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A person or a family is suspended for 12 months if they refuse an offer.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It works very well in my local authority area. I think every local authority should have a CBL system operating, with about 60% to 70% of all units on it. Obviously, this is the prerogative of the local authorities.
I will ask one further question that will be of interest to the Chair as a Green Party member of the committee. Regarding solar panels on housing stock, we are trying to encourage more green energy use on the private side of things through Sustainable Energy Authority Ireland, SEAI, grants and the better energy communities that can be accessed. Has any feasibility study been carried out regarding the possibility of a large-scale roll-out of solar panel installation on local authority housing stock? I appreciate that a funding envelope would have to be put in place behind such a project, but I wonder if such a feasibility study has been carried out.
Ms Jackie Maguire:
We are not aware of a large-scale study having been carried out. We try to apply the various levels of green energy technologies when houses are being retrofitted. The units we buy, the new builds, are all of a particular standard already. I am not, however, aware of a large-scale study of this kind, but it is probably something we should do.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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What is the position in County Kildare?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is not something that can be done in isolation to get the full benefit for the housing stock. If a unit is poorly rated, the benefit of this type of measure is lessened but it is not eliminated. There is still a significant benefit to be derived by the household in respect of the reduction in the use of energy. This is something that needs to be pursued, and perhaps it can be one of the recommendations in our report. I thank the witnesses.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Senator Cummins. I call Deputy Gould.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Returning to a point made by Senator Cummins in relation to voids and the length of time they are vacant, it is good to hear that local authorities were in the 20s and that they are trying to get back there. We should have targets in this regard. Local authority properties should be vacant for only 20 weeks or 24 weeks. It should be a reasonable amount of time. Something I see in the context of Cork City Council, and it has arisen with a few other local authorities as well, is the issue of getting funding from the Minister and the Department. Cork City Council has received an allocation of funding to get 144 properties returned to use. That council, however, has more than 500 voids.
Something I have been suggesting, and hopefully the committee will put this forward as a recommendation, is the ability for local authorities to repair properties as soon as they become aware of an issue and then claim the money back from the Department without the need to send emails and provide details of the number of voids at any specific time. Would it be an asset for local authorities to be able to do this? From the perspective of the witnesses, how do their county councils get funding back? Is it necessary to get permission from the Department first and then do the work? If so, would the other way that I have suggested not be better?
Ms Annette Aspell:
In Kildare, we have a limited voids programme. We tend to not have that many voids in our stock. We benefit from some funding from the Department that falls into that category annually. I think we may have got funding for 90 units this year. We are not, though, holding voids while awaiting funding. We tend to fund these endeavours from our own resources, if we can.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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On that point, I have seen in my own constituency some houses being left there for perhaps four or five years because it would take €50,000 to €70,000 to do them up. They may be very old units. The local authority, then, would leave those houses until last. Does this happen in County Kildare?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to getting the funding from the Department, should the local authorities have the ability to do the work and then claim the money back? We are looking at a length of time here of 48 weeks and 39 weeks. Is there a delay in the Department allocating the money to the witnesses' local authorities that slows them down or are they okay with the situation? I ask this question because other local authorities have a delay in this regard.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
Neither of us would have high levels of voids anyway. We have been set an annual target by the Department and allocated funding for it. It is a capped grant of €11,000 currently for each property. If anything else needs to be done, we do it out of our own resources. An energy retrofit may need to go into a unit as well. As I said in response to Senator Cummins, we are moving to a more planned maintenance approach and that should mean voids will become a thing of the past. We will be doing cyclical maintenance and ensuring our stock is kept up to standard on an ongoing basis. This is the intention and it is, as I understand it, where funding is going to be directed in the future, rather than towards voids funding. This approach was undertaken especially around 2014 during the depths of the financial crisis to get as many units as possible back into use. It has been tapering off since. Planned maintenance, however, will be the way forward in future and we should not be seeing the level of voids witnessed previously.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a planned maintenance programme in County Kildare?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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This would include windows and doors, as well as energy efficiency.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is the same in County Meath.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Returning to the subject of affordable housing, and I am sorry I missed earlier contributions because I was in the Chamber and in a meeting, what price are the two local authorities hoping to sell their two- and three-bedroom affordable units for?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
It will depend on a couple of variables.
Essentially, while the subsidies available for affordable housing schemes will come in at, say, €50,000, €75,000 or €100,000, depending on the city area, it also depends on density. That density relates to cost ceilings. For argument's sake, if €400,000 is the ceiling for a house in a density of between 35 and 50, someone could then get a grant of €75,000, which would bring the cost down to approximately €325,000. What purchasers ultimately pay depends on their circumstances. They have to borrow the maximum they are allowed under macroprudential rules and, therefore, while the house might be at a certain cost, there a small gap between what is paid and what the shared equity would be. We could not definitively say that one person could buy a house for that price. We try to bring the schemes back into the local authority home-loan threshold, which is €320,000 for Meath. There is a slight inconsistency between the first-home scheme and the local authority home loan in that the threshold for Meath in the scheme is €350,000, whereas the local authority loan is €320,000. A few kinks probably need to be ironed out of the system.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are those the maximum levels?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Has Mr. Lynch any idea of the prices of cost-rental units in Meath County Council?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
The overall aim is to try to achieve a 25% discount on market rent. At present, we are not active in cost rental but the AHBs have been. One 22-unit scheme recently launched in Trim was oversubscribed at more than 300 applications. Another such scheme is planned for Navan, which is not yet off the ground. Our initial foray into affordable would probably be on the purchase side of it and direct homeownership, but we are looking at cost rental in a future construction project.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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How much are those cost-rental units?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask for a note on that. I would like to make a comparison across all the local authorities. How many people are added to the local authority housing lists each year?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The reason I ask that is if local authorities expect 700 or 900 new applications to be added to the list each year, the targets they have been set mean that, in 2026, the housing crisis will be worse in both local authorities. Is that correct?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have an issue with the Government targets. I think they are too low. Every local authority official who appears before the committee states they are meeting the targets but the housing emergency is getting worse every day. How can they meet every target yet the housing crisis continues to get worse? The only explanation is that the targets are too low. If we are looking at the addition of between 700 and 900 new applications each year and, on top of that, the threshold is increased, that will increase the number of people who come onto the list. This is no criticism of either local authority. The criticism is that the Government targets are too low. In four or five years, when the witnesses, committee members or whoever are back here, the crisis will be worse based on these figures. In Kildare, for example, the total number of units to be built, acquired and leased is 2,693 units. Is that estimated figure correct?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a total of 5,000.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The figure is 2,416. If 700 people are added to the list each year, and I am just taking that as an approximate figure, that is 2,800 so we will be 400 worse off. This is no criticism of the local authority. My criticism is that the Government targets are too low.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. What about Meath County Council?
Mr. Barry Lynch:
We went slightly over the target. We referenced our target based on the housing need and demand assessment, which gave a figure of approximately 1,734 units, from memory. We are not the only show in town in that, traditionally, 60% of our tenants were on HAP. It is a combination of what we do and what happens in the private rental sector. We need an increase in supply across the board and not just from our own efforts. We need to see a general increase in housebuilding to make more private rented accommodation available as well.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify this point, Meath County Council's figure is 1,969 between 2020 and 2026. Is that figure correct?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, including them all. My issue is that even if the figure is rounded off at 2,000, if 900 new applications are added to the list every year, those targets do not meet the need.
Mr. Barry Lynch:
There is certainly a need, as we all know, to increase supply. The affordable element is only part of it. There will also be contributions from other sources, including the AHBs, through cost rental, which are not part of our numbers at all. We are concerned with housing delivery, from whatever source it comes, to make sure it happens.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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To finish, I thank-----
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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The Deputy has had ten minutes. He has had a good shot.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know great work is being done in both local authorities. We see that from their submissions. I thank them for that. It is not a criticism of them but we are looking at the crisis and we need to come up with solutions.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I have two final questions. On the planning exemptions introduced last year for a change of use that did not require planning permission, have the local authorities noticed that feeding into the system yet in respect of planning applications, particularly around town or urban centres?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. That is good.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. I have one last question. It is slightly outside the subject matter and, therefore, I will understand if the representatives do not have the data to hand. The committee recently produced a report on embodied carbon in the construction industry and modern building methods. Is that an issue the local authorities are considering as they design or go out to tender for delivery of housing? Are they looking at methods that are lower in carbon intensity? We try to attain the high energy standard, which brings efficiencies into houses and makes that housing affordable. One of the things we do not consider is the affordability of where the housing is and the type of housing. If people are a long way from where they will work, there is an affordability issue, in addition to the energy rating of the home. We are holding a series of meetings on this, but are modern construction methods, and the reduction of carbon intensity in construction, on the local authorities' radar?
Mr. Dara McGowan:
There has been occasion in recent years where we have used green criteria in the tender processes. There are additional awards if applicants have particular International Organization for Standardization standards, have particular construction methods or are using different products. It might be slightly more expensive but they get more on the quality side of the awards, which may or may not help them get the job. It depends on the overall tender package.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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This is specifically around the carbon intensity of construction, however. I do not know whether the officials saw the figure reported recently by the Irish Green Building Council, which is if everything we build will be concrete, on these figures, we will way overshoot our carbon emissions targets. There will be vacant units, reuse and repurposing, but we also need to look at modern construction methods. Is this a matter that Kildare County Council has come across?
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
No. We are very mindful of a number of different factors, including the building regulations we have to adhere to and the cost per unit of what we are going out to tender for. We have had difficulties in the past, where we looked to try different construction methods that would bring the units in under the cost the Department would allow.
It is something we would have to give some more time and consideration to. We have not been able to build it into the process so far.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Kavanagh. The cost of carbon is something we will have to factor in in future. Deputy Gould wanted to come back in briefly.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, there are issues with antisocial behaviour by some tenants. Do the local authorities have a tenant enforcement officer or something similar? How do they deal with antisocial behaviour by tenants?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do the local authorities ever find there is a need to go further than that? In some local authorities, this can be a major issue. If a person or group engages in antisocial behaviour, it can drag down the whole community. Have the witnesses come across that or have they had to tackle it?
Ms Jackie Maguire:
Just this week, I had reason to sign a chief executive's order for a repossession of a house. It was a very difficult case. It is not somewhere we wish to go. We try to deal with the problem but when required it has to do be done. As I said, we carried out a repossession order just this week.
Ms Sonya Kavanagh:
Very briefly, we have had some success with a multi-agency approach in particular areas where we have had issues with antisocial behaviour in a number of different properties. We provided additional resources for community development but we also call on the HSE, Tusla, the Garda and other bodies to make a concerted effort in those particular areas. We have seen some significant improvements in those areas. Quite apart from the stick approach, the carrot approach has worked as well.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that organised? It sounds excellent. I know nobody wants to be signing those orders but where communities are being destroyed, the local authority must do everything in its power to save the whole community. What Ms Kavanagh described is an approach the Department should support. When we see an issue developing, we should get all the different agencies involved to find out if the person, family or group of families needs additional supports. I would welcome that and would like to hear more about it. The committee could take it up in the new year. I thank the witnesses for their comments. I know this is a tough issue to deal with but I have seen the lives of ordinary people and families destroyed when local authorities have not stepped in.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Kavanagh and Ms Maguire and their respective teams. I ask them to bring back to all of their staff the acknowledgement and thanks of the committee. I know many staff working on housing and it is a very difficult department. It can be very stressful across the board, including in the cases mentioned by Deputy Gould. Estate liaison officers do incredible work as well. I know we ask a lot of them. They are delivering and it is very positive to see that. I thank the witnesses for their engagement. It has been very helpful for members to see what local authorities outside our areas do.