Mr. Hugh Farrell:

I will respond to Deputy Carthy's questions on the badger vaccination. It is something we brought up on numerous occasions at the TB Forum. It was not mentioned here but I want to make it known that we brought it up at an earlier stage in the TB programme. We questioned the number of counties that were being done and the way it was being extended throughout the country. At the time we were told it was done prior to the TB Forum being set up, that we had no say in the matter and that this was going to take place without being proven.

I refer to badgers and the testing of badgers. There are different opinions around the room. We have seen the "RTÉ Investigates" programme, which detailed how there was no testing of the badgers, and we have seen that there was a time when there were no test facilities or equipment for testing. A lot of this has gone on in the past with badgers and the testing was being determined on a visual test. If a test is so accurate within hours of a badger being caught and vaccinated, why are we putting in cattle twice and so on? I question it big time. We should not be put through so much. The feedback we have from a lot of places on the wildlife and vaccination has been to ask whether outbreaks are happening in the middle of vaccination programmes or after. We would look to County Clare, where it was reduced by half when there was a cull in the Burren and in other areas. Maybe we have to get more realistic on what we need to achieve in that. That is where we would be looking on the badger end of it.

With regard to the control of deer and the control of same, this is something the Department was burying its head in the sand on all the time and did not want to take ownership. Officials told us to contact the relevant bodies and to take them out and bring them at our own cost to the labs or whatever.

That is not the way of working or how to control the system. I do not care what we call deer; they are wildlife. There is talk about tagging them in the future. Deer should be treated the same as any other bovine. The wildlife parks were always there. We have Phoenix Park, Glenveagh Park, County Donegal or wherever they are. They are controlled areas. There is no such thing as controlled because they are not affecting them financially. We are taking the burden of that in our TB breakdowns. The pressure must come from this committee that a cull must take place. There has to be proper control put in place nationally for deer at all times.

The numbers in County Wicklow and so forth were mentioned here. When we bring it up at the TB forum, people say there are no deer; it is only in Wicklow that they are showing a high prevalence. There is no test to show the readings. We have nothing to work off. As the Deputy mentioned about something else, a lot of figures are put out that do not stand up to basic statements. This is where deer and bovine have to be treated. No other bovine would be let roam on the land. Between the National Parks and Wildlife Service, Office of Public Works and Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, especially the section of the Department with responsibility for disease, someone has to take responsibility for this. That is something I would like to see going forward.

All we want to see is eradication going forward. We have been in this programme for the past four years, and in the last 12 or 16 months, all we have heard at any meeting is that so much stock is missing from the wild and that we cannot control the wildlife. There are technical agricultural officers, TAOs, missing or they cannot take on farm-leased staff due to the shortage of staff. Consider the Border areas of counties Cavan, Louth, Meath and Monaghan, for instance, which is a big red spot. Five staff are missing from there on the wildlife end. Who is suffering? The farmers. They are the ones who are taking the whole risk. They are the ones who go down with TB. The other ones then are on the outer side of the farm gate. The Department has failed them by not putting in place the proper eradication programme. This what we are hitting across the country. We are short of multiple staff. Therefore, how can we talk about increasing costs or share in expenditure when we are doing everything inside the farm gate? On the other hand, nothing is being done to match it. This needs to be directed and must be done. Therefore, we are calling here for the Department to take full responsibility with immediate effect. That is what we will be looking forward to.

Deputy Kehoe asked a question about the National Parks and Wildlife Service. We are looking forward to working with it and trying to develop what is going forward in further meetings. As far as Coillte goes, we had a meeting with the head of the organisation. As far as we were concerned, Coillte showed very little interest in what we are doing. Furthermore, as people in the room know because they have sat on the TB forum, I brought this up at the forum on a few occasions and the reply Coillte gave us was that there is no proof that wildlife is the problem with TB. Coillte said it is not responsible, and its representatives wiped their hands clean of it. That is not acceptable. It is Coillte's property. It should take defensive interest. I do not know if Mr. Punch wants to follow on from that.