Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 10 November 2022
Public Accounts Committee
Greyhound Racing Ireland: Financial Statements 2021
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Catherine Murphy and Carroll McNeill.
If attending in the committee room, people are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must continue to do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, sends his apologies. He is represented today by Mr. Andy Harkness, director of audit, who is accompanied by Mr. Mark Brady, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This morning, we will engage with the following officials from Rasaíocht Con Éireann, Greyhound Racing Ireland, to examine its financial statements for 2021. We are joined by Mr. John Tuohey, interim CEO and chief financial officer, Mr. Frank Nyhan, chairman, Mr. William Fitzgerald, veterinary director, and Mr. Patrick Herbert, director of regulation. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary general; Ms Caroline Ball, principal officer; and Ms Louise McAlavey, assistant principal officer. All of our guests are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards the reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses within the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I now call on Mr. Harkness to make his opening statement.
Mr. Andy Harkness:
Rásaíocht Con Éireann was established to provide a statutory basis for the control, regulation and development of greyhound racing in the State. Organisationally, it operates a group structure comprising the statutory body and four subsidiary companies. It operates racing at nine tracks around the State and oversees racing at a number of privately owned or operated tracks.
Rásaíocht Con Éireann operates in one of the sectors most affected by restrictions put in place in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. Its results for 2020 were substantially affected and a full recovery of activities was not achieved in 2021. As a result, Rásaíocht Con Éireann incurred a loss of €1.4 million in respect of tote betting and other race-related activities in 2021. This followed a loss from those activities of €1.8 million in 2020, and compares with a surplus of €400,000 generated from racing activities in 2019.
Rásaíocht Con Éireann relies substantially on Exchequer funding, and received €19.2 million in 2021, up from €16.8 million in 2020. This funding was sourced from the Agriculture, Food and the Marine Vote via the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund. The other main source of income in the year was the contributions from owners and sponsors towards racing prize money, totalling €1.9 million.
On the expenditure side, Rásaíocht Con Éireann incurred costs totalling €16.7 million in 2021. This included €8 million paid out in prize money, €3.3 million spent on racing regulation, welfare, and integrity costs and €1.4 million spent on marketing and promotion. Overall, Rásaíocht Con Éireann made a surplus for the year of €3 million. The 2021 group financial statements received a clear audit opinion.
Mr. John Tuohey:
On behalf of Rásaíocht Con Éireann, Greyhound Racing Ireland, I thank the committee the opportunity to come before it today. I am the interim chief executive officer and chief financial officer of the board and I am accompanied by our chairperson, Mr. Nyhan, Mr. Fitzgerald, our veterinary director and Mr. Herbert, our director of regulation.
As set out in the invitation to attend, the accounts for examination before the committee today are the financial statements for Rásaíocht Con Éireann for the year ended 31 December 2021. It was a positive year for Rásaíocht Con Éireann from the greyhound racing perspective as a full racing calendar was completed consisting of 1,384 race meetings compared with 1,085 in 2020, accommodating 15,533 individual races in comparison with 11,651 in 2020.
Some 91,778 greyhounds were entered into these races. Covid-19 restrictions severely curtailed attendances. However, 158,029 patrons attended greyhound racing events in 2021, which was an increase from 2020, when the attendance was 126,376.
Financially, Rásaíocht Con Éireann operated prudently within budget with the aid of Government Covid-19 supports and careful cost management. The organisation is reporting an operating surplus before interest, depreciation and taxation for the year of €3.8 million, increasing from the €2.2 million surplus achieved in 2020. Food and beverage sales from stadia operated by our events and hospitality services division amounted to €0.9 million for 2021, generating a gross profit of €0.6 million. Tote turnover for the year was €7 million, with €1.7 million being received in international co-mingling income. The sale of media rights from race meetings generated €1.9 million in the year. Total prize money paid for the year was €8.1 million, increased from €6 million in 2020.
Care and welfare of greyhounds is the main priority of the board and expenditure in 2021 totalled €3.3 million, increasing from €3 million in 2020.
The defined benefit pension scheme, which is closed to new entrants, is now closed to future accrual. The net defined benefit liability at 31 December 2021 amounted to €568,000 and a funding plan has been agreed with the trustee to address this liability. Significant improvement has been achieved in addressing the working capital deficit, moving from a negative €1.4 million at 31 December 2020 to a positive €1.4 million at 31 December 2021.
I once again thank the Chair for the opportunity to come before the committee. We will endeavour to respond to all members' questions. However, if there is any additional information required arising from this meeting, we will be pleased to provide that information in a prompt manner.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like to welcome our guests from Greyhound Racing Ireland and thank them for coming before us. I will start on the issue of animal welfare. I refer to the income and expenditure accounts for the overall care and welfare programme. On the disclosure of all expenditure that has occurred in relation to greyhound welfare, why did the Accounting Officer not prepare this in a singular note so the user of the account could easily identify the type of expenditure? Can he give us an explanation on that?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. The care fund, specifically.
Mr. John Tuohey:
The background to the care fund dates from 2019 when it was established with the purpose of ringfencing certain income which would then be used specifically for greyhound care fund purposes. That income was to come from 10% of gate receipts, 5% of net tote revenue and 50% of most of our sponsorship. We then expended those funds in specific categories of expenditure around fostering, welfare homes and those areas. That was the reason that we identify it as a separate line on the income and expenditure account.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Mr. Tuohey can give us the breakdown of the welfare expenditure for 2020 and 2021.
Mr. John Tuohey:
The majority of the expenditure in 2020, approximately €1 million of it, was in respect of a Covid support scheme that we brought in to effectively assist in feeding the greyhounds while racing was suspended. It was €2 per day per racing greyhound. In total it came to just under €1 million. The other aspects of it were in relation to the fostering and so on.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For 2020, the expenditure was €1.1 million. What was the total expenditure for 2021?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. We have a drop there of €668,000.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Tuohey have an estimate for 2022 in terms of what percentage of overall expenditure is utilised on animal welfare?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How about for the care fund?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Tuohey give us an explanation of the respective roles Greyhound Racing Ireland and the Irish Kennel Club have in relation to animal welfare?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
The Greyhound Racing Act 2019 chiefly assigns Greyhound Racing Ireland as the promoters and developers of greyhound racing in Ireland. The Irish Kennel Club is very much based on greyhound breeds. It has its own microchipping database as well. In Greyhound Racing Ireland, the registrations are carried out through the offices of the Irish Coursing Club, which is based in Clonmel. It is the statutory appointed body that looks after all areas of registration, breeding, mating, whelping and litter registration. Chiefly, under the provisions of the 2019 Act, we are the purveyors of racing regulation and welfare maintenance relating to the greyhound industry. We also have authorised officers under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 in addition to being operators Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011, which is the only set of statutory legislation in this country chiefly assigned to one canine breeds, that being greyhounds.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the Irish Kennel Club, Mr. Herbert mentioned that each of the breeds is chipped. In relation to traceability around these, how many does he estimate are not chipped to date?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
Under the microchipping regulations, every canine in this country has to be chipped, outside of greyhounds. It is national legislation. It is a racing requirement that every greyhound is chipped. The Irish Coursing Club, ICC, operates its own microchipping and it is an authorised database.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Herbert said every racing-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are they signed up to Greyhound Racing Ireland's traceability system?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
Yes. I would take the opportunity to talk a bit about that, but there is extensive communication between the Irish Coursing Club that feeds into the traceability system from our side, in addition to a race management system. I would love the opportunity to talk a bit further about that if it would interest the Deputy.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The question was in relation to the traceability system. How many greyhounds does Mr. Herbert reckon have not been signed up to that? How does Greyhound Racing Ireland monitor the welfare of greyhounds that have not been signed up?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many inspections have the welfare officers carried out?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
I have the figures to hand. As the chief executive has already pointed out, the board has a very clear focus on animal welfare. It is stringently supported by our board, thankfully. Just over 2,000 welfare inspections have been carried out to date in 2022. The figure for last year was just over 1,200. This covers all greyhound establishments including owners, trainers and breeders.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many premises have licences to train greyhounds? How many of these premises have been inspected in 2022?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
All trainers' premises are routinely inspected in the course of a year. They are also subject to an application process whereby they must reapply on an annual basis for a trainer's licence under the trainers' regulations of 1961. In advance of any licence being issued, an authorised officer inspects the premises from an operational and welfare perspective to make sure it complies with the requirements of the code of practice that we published last November.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Greyhound Racing Ireland have concerns about the welfare of greyhounds in Ireland? Has it taken appropriate action to address them?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
Greyhound racing is a sport. As with every sport, there are people who excel at it and people who do not. There are people who will transgress regulations and people who will not. We are no different from any other sport in this regard. Are we a perfect industry? No, we are not. We have regulations and I assure the Deputy we have ramped up our regime on welfare adherence and regulation. With regard to the inspection figures in 2021, there were 235 welfare investigations and the figure to date this year is 485. Arising out of these, in 2021 we issued 82 fixed penalty notices under the Welfare of Greyhounds Act.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There were only two convictions.
Mr. Pat Herbert:
Absolutely. We issue a number of fixed notice penalties. The whole essence of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act is to try to bring people with us. We have an aged participation in the industry. It is very much about trying to drive compliance. We are not afraid to bring people before the courts where the case arises.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are the disciplinary measures?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
The provisions of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act and the Animal Health and Welfare Act allow cases to be brought to the District Court. In recent years the board has issued a number of exclusion orders arising out of court prosecutions pursuant to the Greyhound Industry Act 1958. These exclusion orders chiefly exclude that person from attendance at a track, coursing meetings and authorised sales.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With regard to retired greyhounds that are not racing, what measures are in place regarding the Irish Retired Greyhound Trust, IRGT? How many greyhounds are rehomed with financial assistance provided by the board to private rehoming agencies?
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
There are a number of strands to this particular question. The IRGT is a registered charity that is 25 years old this year. It operates under a deed of trust. In 2021 the IRGT rehomed 2,234 greyhounds. There were 1,001 directly rehomed and 1,233 rehomed through the private rehoming organisations we work with.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Were these a combination of racing greyhounds and standard greyhounds? Is there a differentiation between types of greyhounds?
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
No, we do not differentiate. They are greyhounds that no longer race. They are greyhounds that are registered in the Irish greyhound studbook. We do not differentiate. To the end of October 2022, we rehomed 1,509 greyhounds through the same channels. The breakdown of this is 740 directly through the IRGT and 769 through our private rehoming partners.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the contribution made by Greyhound Racing Ireland to provide financial assistance or Exchequer funding to support them?
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
The assistance comes on a number of levels. Preparing the greyhounds to be rehomed involves a number of facets. The first of these is getting the dog neutered. A contribution of €50 per greyhound is made towards this. There is also a contribution towards the cost of vaccinations and preparing health checks of the greyhounds to the amount of €80 per greyhound. Since the beginning of February this year there is an additional €50 per greyhound for any dental work required.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It amounts to €200.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was the overall expenditure for 2021 from the Exchequer to support this? Is this figure available for 2021?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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From the Exchequer.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How does Greyhound Racing Ireland monitor the welfare of the greyhounds that have been rehomed? It has provided more than €450,000 of Exchequer funding to put the dogs through the right processing system. How is welfare monitored on an ongoing basis?
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
In the process of rehoming these greyhounds, each individual application goes through a process of assessing whether the dog is the right fit for the person or family. This includes home checks and conversations with prospective owners as to whether it is a good fit for them. Their level of experience of owning a dog is assessed as is what having a greyhound in their life would mean and the changes they may expect as a result. This is particularly acute at present. I am quite sure the Deputy has seen reports not only from us but from other rehoming charities, specifically Dogs Trust, on dogs being surrendered. Dogs were taken into homes during the Covid pandemic but surrendered when people returned to work in the office. The transition from being a racing dog to a retired dog is a two-pronged process. It is not only about getting the dog prepared but also that the people who take the dogs in know exactly what they are dealing with.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I will begin by calling a spade a spade. People who are unfamiliar with the sport ask questions about why it should be in receipt of such a degree of money. A good opening question from my point of view is to ask what benefit this has for the economy. I know Greyhound Racing Ireland undertook extensive economic research in the Power report. What does this do for rural Ireland and the circular economy in return for Exchequer funding?
What economic benefits does it provide society?
Mr. John Tuohey:
Initially, the Jim Power report was commissioned in 2021. The economic benefit on an overall basis was highlighted in a number of categories within that report. It is primarily of benefit in rural Ireland, where the greyhound racing community, owners and trainers are primarily based. It is in their local economies. It is also a spin-off where the stadiums are based, so employment is generated directly and indirectly from all of the stadiums. Obviously, that is not confined purely to rural Ireland. Shelbourne Park is our flagship stadium, located in Dublin, and it is the largest generator of income from an events and hospitality perspective.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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On a more grassroots basis, how many individuals are involved with greyhound racing as a sport? How many people are employed in it? How many breeders are there? Do the witnesses have those figures available? It is very important for Greyhound Racing Ireland to give the public at large some idea of why that investment from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund is worthy of going to it and what the knock-on positives are. I ask the witnesses to give a bit of depth and scope there. How many people are involved overall on the breeding side? I would also like a bit more detail on the level of attendances at the tracks.
Mr. John Tuohey:
I will take the direct employment first. Approximately 118 people are employed directly full time within the organisation as we speak. Part-time casual employees, which include workers in our restaurants, in our tote, track maintenance services and so on, would make up a further 480. That figure fluctuates and will increase as we come into the Christmas season. Indirectly, on the breeders-----
Mr. Pat Herbert:
We would have somewhere in the region of 4,000 active owners. When I say "active" I mean registered in the last 12 months. Our racing pools indicate the number of greyhounds actively available for entry at any one time. The Deputy will appreciate that this changes. It is a very fluid thing when bitches come into season and greyhounds are laid off from the racing period. Our racing pools would fluctuate on a monthly basis from somewhere between 4,500 and 5,000 greyhounds that are actively available for race entry across our licensed stadiums.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to income, in 2020 and 2021 there were extremely difficult circumstances for people involved in horse and greyhound racing. Incomes collapsed as a consequence of people not being able to attend race meetings and from the drop in income from the tote. How much is made from media licensing? SIS has the contract there. How much income comes from that on an annual basis?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that one company or is there a collective? Does more than one company have rights?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
By way of additional information, the Deputy mentioned greyhound owners during this period. The interim CEO has already briefly referred to this. During the period of inactivity around Covid, we introduced a Covid-19 greyhound care payment scheme. It provided for a subsistence payment for each active racing greyhound during the period and it covered 6,650 greyhounds. The scheme was introduced to ensure basic needs were met during the period of inactivity while prize money was not being paid. The expenditure on that for the period in question was €998,000.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to get an insight into the studbook. Who has regulatory responsibility there?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. From the perspective of the future of greyhound racing, the number of dogs produced is a concern for animal rights activists. I am sure the witnesses are going to hear a lot more about that today. What work could be done, within reason and not damaging the sport, to try to improve the transparency around breeding and reduce the number of dogs in breeding? If that were done, would there be consequences for the level of meetings and the income for the organisation? That is a question that needs to be asked for those who are unfamiliar with the sport. The vast majority of the Irish public do not have any in-depth knowledge of greyhound racing.
Mr. Pat Herbert:
It is not insignificant that we would have seen a decline in breeding during Covid. Thankfully, numbers are returning at the moment. The Deputy may or may not be aware that all brood bitches in this country are DNA profiled. All whelps, in addition to being microchipped under national legislation, are ear tattooed and identified that way as well. I mentioned the Welfare of Greyhounds Act. It specifically provides for a code of practice, which we published in November of last year and which sets out provisions for the absolute minimum care for greyhounds and how they should be maintained. That covers all greyhounds - retired, racing, the whole lot. That statutory legislation is the only legislation in this country that is specifically directed towards one canine breed. There are provisions in that legislation for breaches in how greyhounds are kept. Our board takes a very serious view of any cases that come before the courts deals with people accordingly.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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During 2020 and 2021, the drop in spectators attending meetings was hugely significant to the income of Greyhound Racing Ireland. Looking at this year so far, how are attendances going? Are they recovering to 2019 levels in any shape or form?
Mr. John Tuohey:
We are seeing a strong recovery in attendances this year. At the end of October, on an overall basis we had in excess of 250,000 people attending the meetings. There has been a strong recovery. We are obviously targeting to improve that further. Post Covid, it was a good outcome because people were a little reticent to return to crowded areas and so on. It has been building momentum right through the year.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will return to the issue of the studbook. I asked this question and I would expect to get a proper answer. The level of dogs being bred per year is a huge concern. That would be the view of the general public overall. If you were to take a straw poll of a random sample of the population, I am sure that is what would come back as the biggest problem. Could Greyhound Racing Ireland do anything to try to tighten that up or increase the regulatory standards? Could the witnesses look at that and come forward with a plan? It is the way business is done in the racing industry with horses. I know the breeding of dogs is very different and obviously involves a different number of pups being born. A horse normally has one foal but that is not the case with a dog or bitch. Is that something that could be looked at, to try to bolster the level of accreditation and confidence in greyhound racing in this country? That should be done, if it can be.
Mr. Pat Herbert:
We are always looking at areas to try to improve standards, whether that is in how greyhounds are kept, breeding standards, racing standards or welfare initiatives. It is important to note that there is also an active export market for greyhounds. That is supported by the numbers being bred. In 2017 there were 6,767 Irish-bred greyhounds registered in the UK, which would have been exported there.
The number decreased in 2021 to 5,882. That is a sizable proportion. Over 80% of greyhounds that race in the UK are of Irish extraction. There is active support for owners and breeders in this country and an active, fluid market which exports greyhounds to the UK. It is an important part of the greyhound industry. It provides support and a rationale for the numbers being bred in this country.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I welcome our guests. I think I am the only one here who was on the committee a few years ago when Bord na gCon, as it was then known, was in front of us. There were two meetings which we do not forget lightly. I am glad to see there have been some changes, with a new financial controller coming in a couple of years ago. I understand a new commercial director has been appointed and will be in place early next year. I regret that the CEO left, because I think things were beginning to change. The process to appoint someone is ongoing. I hope whoever is appointed has a lot of commercial sense and knowledge of the whole racing industry because it is specific knowledge.
I have questions regarding figures. In the 2021 report, prize money is given at €8.1 million. I want to get a sense of this. If the contribution from owners, sponsors and Sports Information Services, SIS, is subtracted, what is the prize money? Is it closer to €3.75 million or €4 million?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What if SIS is deducted?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is generated because of that. If those are all added up, the direct contribution to the prize money is approximately €4 million rather than €8.1 million.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know what Mr. Tuohey is saying and respect that. I am trying to get to how much from the horse and greyhound racing fund, which contributes to the organisation, is used for paying prize money versus running the organisation. By my calculation, while one can argue the toss over a couple of those contributions, that fund, which was set up to deliver prize money, was used for approximately a 70:30 split between running the organisation and the prize fund over a few years. Horse Racing Ireland is the only organisation to compare this with. It spends approximately 65% on prize money. The organisation is taking up a vast amount of the fund. Is that fair to say?
Mr. John Tuohey:
I would not agree. The activity of greyhound racing is generating the income. Other commercial activities are taking place. We generate income and revenue from events and hospitality. It would not be fair to say that it should be deducted from the money paid from the fund. If we generated no income from the media rights, the prize money would still be provided to races.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that, but the bottom line is that approximately 70% of the fund given to Greyhound Racing Ireland from the tax created by the Government is used to run the organisation. In any scenario, that is lopsided. The only organisation to compare with is Horse Racing Ireland, which spends 35% on the organisation and 65% on the prize fund. I allowed for Covid. The previous figures go to nearly an 80:20 split, while the previous year is a 65:35 split. The point is a large majority of the funding is used for running the organisation rather than for prize money.
Page 28 is on media and other income. There is a sum of €65,500. Why is SIS funding not in this part of the report on media and other income? Page 28 indicates that there was a loss of €1.48 million from racing activities. Why is that not part of this? Why is the spending on SIS not here?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know that. Why is all media not together?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There is a racing activities loss of €1.48 million and spending on marketing of €1.469 million. I know we have had a difficult year, so I am allowing that, though it is not the answer to everything. Some €1.469 million was spent on marketing, for a loss of €1.48 million.
Mr. John Tuohey:
One would need to look specifically at what is contained within our category of marketing expenditure. It is not purely marketing campaigns. It involves the staffing of our marketing department, commercial and sales department, and the staffing and running of our sales centre. There are a number of different elements to it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that and Mr. Tuohey's honesty. In my eyes, if one added the marketing activities and the SIS revenue, it would be €3.381 million for a marketing spend of €1.469 million if one adds the coverage through SIS and the marketing. It is extraordinary to have spent €1.469 million on marketing for a loss of €3.381 million. I will move on.
I have a question for the Department officials. Concerns have been expressed here and in reports about the board. I know a new CEO is being appointed. Best of luck to the interim CEO who is doing the job. In every Department, there are certain criteria when it comes to appointing people to boards, as well as the Public Appointments Service, which was the right thing to bring in. There is a concern that there is not actually anybody on the board with distinctive, extensive knowledge of the industry. Is the Department concerned about that? How does it know that the board has enough knowledge to adapt greyhound racing to modern times?
Mr. Gordon Conroy:
As the Deputy is probably aware, vacancies on the board are advertised. We select a number of different possibilities and their names are put to the Minister. On any board, our approach is to ensure that there is a mix of different skill sets, including financial governance, as well as industry experience. We look to ensure that that happens. We are satisfied with the current board composition.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I would not be satisfied with it, so it is a matter of opinion. There is not enough industry expertise. Take the stadiums, for example. This was referenced in a number of reports, including that compiled by Indecon. Many of the stadiums are in an awful state. I am not sure some of them would pass health and safety. It is an issue that must be addressed and I would appreciate it if there was more board expertise.
I have a question in respect of the catering company. It is very hard to delve into the figures in the report, but how much of a profit has the catering company made over the past three years?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I do not expect Greyhound Racing Ireland to have these figures now. The officials could write back to the committee and do a comparative analysis of the past five years of expenditure and income and then profits with respect to how catering was done prior to it being insourced versus when it was outsourced. They can take 2020 out. That can be supplied to the committee; I do not expect the officials to have it here. I would appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That can all be outlined. I appreciate there is a difference between what was there previous to, and post, the pandemic.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, I understand that. We can delve through the figures to see. I just want to see if it was a good idea to do it and whether it is covering itself because there was some profit had from it under the old system. In fact, it was quite profitable for a period, so I want to see if that was the right decision.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, but if you visit them - I have visited a good few of them. Has Mr. Tuohey? Okay. I thank the Chairman.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy has been to the dogs.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I do not expect Mr. Tuohey has visited them all, trust me.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Hourigan is next.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair. I welcome our guests and thank them for their submission and accompanying documents.
I want to get a sense of how the financial numbers stack up against the dog numbers. We have touched on it a bit and I thank Deputy O'Connor for introducing the Jim Power report because it is a good place to start. How many racing dogs do we have in Ireland?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay, but we are in a particular month now and we have a traceability scheme, so how many dogs are there today?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is up, as I believe the number was 3,600 previously.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is there a reason the number has taken such a jump? It is a considerable jump of 33% or so.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Returning to that pup issue, how many are born every year, or registered every year? I note the figure in the Jim Power report is 15,600.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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They are not Greyhound Racing Ireland's figures.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland provided them to Jim Power, is that right?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Why is the figure for 2019 in the Jim Power report, which is what he bases the financial analysis off, 15,600 when in the previous year it is 12,156 and in the year after it is 10,584? That seems anomalous.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is Mr. Herbert saying that Greyhound Racing Ireland does not stand over the figures in the Jim Power report?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Who provided the figures?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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So Greyhound Racing Ireland is standing over the figure of 15,000.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can the witnesses explain why the 15,000 figure is so anomalous compared with other years?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That was 2019.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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So in the previous years, the figures were 12,000, 12,000 and 12,000, and then in the year at which we are looking it was 15,000.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland is standing over that figure.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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And the Department stands over that figure. Was there any audit done by the Department?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Was it submitted to the Minister? I believe it was.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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This report was submitted to the Minister.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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With these figures.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Conroy. Returning to the figures given in that report, Greyhound Racing Ireland gives figures for the outlay of a trainer who is taking on a dog. The mount involved is just under €6,000. Is that correct?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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At what age does a dog begin to race?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Thirteen months.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What is the average?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I had it at 18 months, to be honest.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What I find interesting about the Jim Power report is that exports interact with this quite a bit. Some of the numbers imply that the dogs are in Ireland until they are at 24 months old. That is not the case, is it? Thus we are six months short on some of these numbers. If one looks at the number provided to Jim Power, Greyhound Racing Ireland is counting them as still being in Ireland at 24 months but, in reality, they might be exported to the UK at 18 months.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is that not double counting?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is that not double counting?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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If a dog is being counted as here and is not here, is that incorrect counting then, maybe?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. As the 15,000 figure is, as Greyhound Racing Ireland states, provided by the Irish Coursing Club, does it include coursing dogs?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland's traceability schemes do not include coursing dogs, however. Is that right?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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All right. Do the schemes include dogs that never make it to trial?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What about collateral dogs? In a previous contribution GRI told us dogs are registered at 12 weeks. Let us begin at the beginning. How many pups are in a litter on average?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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On average, how many would Greyhound Racing Ireland expect to get to their first trial, out of six?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is not really my question. Out of six pups, how many go on to racing?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Like dogs dying on a farm.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That would be rare. Surely that is rare. Many of my-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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-----extended family are dog owners and also farmers. It would be rare for a dog to die on a farm.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That would be a minute percentage of dogs. Out of those six pups per litter, how many get to a trial? Do we have a number for that? Is it three? Is it four?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does Greyhound Racing Ireland trace all six pups?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is because they are registered at 12 weeks.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What happens prior to 12 weeks?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
The facets of our traceability system - we consulted other racing jurisdictions on how we developed our traceability system, including our Australian and UK counterparts, in addition to the cattle movement and monitoring system.
The origin points for our traceability system are the microchips and the ICC-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I do not mean to move Mr. Herbert along, but I am watching the clock tick down. Is there any way to know what happens to collateral pups under 12 weeks?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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How many are we exporting? We have established that some of them are going at 13 months and 18 months. Is there a cut-off point?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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While there will always be some variation, what was the average age of those dogs?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Before they are trialled here?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Mr. Herbert does not want to give the age in months.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Surely then GRI would have a breakdown of age.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can GRI produce those figures in terms of the age, by month, a dog is when it is exported?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Going back to the Jim Power report, it seems those numbers do not add up. If exports are included, we are double counting those figures. We are then using the figure of just under €6,000 for cost. Let us take a person who has a litter of six pups and, being kind, let us say three or four pups get to a point at which they can race. You are talking about a massive outlay for a trainer. The sales figures do not necessarily indicate that there is any payout for them. It seems to be a huge loss-making exercise.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I looked up the figures and they are not dissimilar from Ireland to the UK.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Jim Power report seems to imply that this is a massive loss-making exercise for people. Based on the report, there is double counting of numbers in terms of pups, the dog pool and exports. It does not add up. It seems this industry is not about racing at all but about breeding, as some 85% of dogs in the UK are from Ireland. Irish greyhound racing is a peripheral industry to the breeding industry. It goes directly to the United Kingdom and is propping up the gambling industry there, which is a £2.7 billion industry. I do not know if they need €19 million of Irish taxpayers' money to prop up their gambling.
The Greyhound Board of Great Britain, GBGB, has just announced that because of concerns over Irish welfare, they are going to start breeding. The business model, even based on the GRI report, will be under pressure. We will no longer be able to export at the level that we do now. Are there concerns about the export levels to the UK based on the GBGB announcement?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is public knowledge. I googled it. One can get UK sales figures no problem.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Exactly. Why would they, and why would we give them €19 million to do so?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I think Deputy Kelly established that.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does the Department have any concerns based on the GBGB announcement?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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This is not welfare question. It is a business-model question.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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So Mr. Conroy has no concerns that they will not be able to export at that level.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Following on from what my colleague said about exports, the report states that 85% of greyhounds used in the UK industry are coming from Ireland. Is that figure correct?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The export of greyhounds to the UK greyhound industry is a good money generator for breeders in Ireland. Looking at the UK greyhound industry, do the witnesses believe that will decline in the coming years?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Herbert does not envisage the level of greyhound exports will decrease.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Have there been changes in the number of greyhounds exported in the past 12 months compared with the 12-month period five years ago?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There has been very little change during that five-year period.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I move on to the issue of legal costs and settlements. In 2021, the total amount incurred due to legal costs was in the order of €374,000, an increase of more than €174,000 since 2020. As that was nearly a 100% increase, is there an explanation as to why there was such a substantial increase in legal costs?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was that just for one case?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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As to legal costs since the end of 2021, are there issues arising now that will incur legal costs, and has adequate provision been made for those?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are there are legal proceedings outstanding?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We have the legal cost for 2020 and 2021. What legal costs were there in the three years prior to that?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Would it have been less?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Were there issues during that three-year period?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the issue of the number of full-time employees that are currently employed by the board. What is the total number of full-time employees now?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the number of part-time employees?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Tuohey does not see any major change in that over the next 12 months to two years.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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With regard to long-term planning over the next five years, where does Mr. Tuohey now see the whole industry going as regards value for what is given by the Department, given that the Department has increased funding over the last number of years? Rásaíocht Con Éireann obviously has a five-year plan. How does Mr. Tuohey see that giving a return for the investment that has been made by the Department?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the five-year plan, is there any particular aspect in which Mr. Nyhan feels further improvement can be made as regards return for the Exchequer, in the sense that the Exchequer is investing quite a bit of money? If we take prize money, for instance, 75% of the prize money in real terms is coming from the Exchequer.
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
We see potential for increasing sponsorship in the industry as it becomes more popular and as we increase footfall. We also see potential for an increase in income in media streaming in co-mingling and also in general commercial activity, particularly around the use of stadia on days other than when there is racing. We have completed a process of hiring a new commercial manager who will be commencing work in January and who has experience in that field.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are there challenges in the sense that the people involved in the industry have an older age profile? The number of new young people coming into it is extremely small. When Mr. Nyhan looks at that five-year plan, does he believe that can change?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
Yes, we do. We believe that we had an extremely bad period from 2019 forward. Part of that was because of our lack of advertising about what we do and how we care for animals. We believe we have turned that corner and we that we are attracting new people into the industry. The profile of persons who have been appearing at our tracks in recent times is encouragingly much younger.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The number of people involved, though, has gone down over the last number of years.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The number of people who are involved in training has gone down substantially.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Committee of Public Accounts is about value for money. As I said, a large proportion of the prize money in races is coming from the Exchequer in real terms. Does Mr. Nyhan believe looking forward that we can reduce the amount of money from the Exchequer going towards the provision of prize money? I understand that in order to keep the industry going, there has to be prize money. Does Mr. Nyhan believe that over the next five years, however, the funding from the Exchequer can be reduced and that the organisation or whole structure can become far more self-sufficient?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When is Mr. Nyhan talking about having that five-year plan completed?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Would it be signed off by March?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Then, the whole process will begin. With regard to that five-year plan, however, what new changes will occur if the Department approves it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Nyhan. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I want to ask about the third-party debt of €0.5 million that Rásaíocht Con Éireann took over. Who would like to speak to that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am referring to note 12 on page 47 of the report. Basically, Rásaíocht Con Éireann signed an agreement with a third party with regard to debt of €0.5 million.
Mr. John Tuohey:
Okay. The particular figure is with regard to €250,000 in respect of capital debt forgiven. That was the figure that was written off. It is not a figure of €0.5 million. To explain, that particular item was historical debt that dated back to 2012 and 2013 when expenditure was being incurred in the development of the Clonmel stadium. At that time, it received a grant for the works that were being done. There was a shortfall in the order of €250,000 to complete the project. The particular circumstances are that Rásaíocht Con Éireann owns the greyhound stadium in Clonmel. We lease it to a private company called Davis Road Greyhound Stadium on a long-term sporting lease. The money that was spent at the time on that building is in respect of a building that is ultimately owned by Rásaíocht Con Éireann. It should maybe have been structured differently at the time. Having not being around at the particular time, it was probably treated as a loan to finish the job to try to ensure that all the works were completed.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do we know why it was written off?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Which review was that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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By whom?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was an internal review.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was not written off until 2021.
Mr. John Tuohey:
It was fully provided for in 2019. The reason it was not written off until 2021 is that we had some other outstanding debt issues with regard to the Clonmel company. We wanted to incorporate all of the resolution into one particular item. Therefore, it was a historical position but-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is very confusing.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much was it recommended at? It was obviously €250,000 in 2018.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was still €250,000 in 2021, however. What is Mr. Tuohey saying was in between?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why did it take three years from a recommendation to writing it off in 2021? Mr. Tuohey just said there was something Rásaíocht Con Éireann had to do in between. What was that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Perhaps Mr. Conroy or somebody from the Department knows the answer to this. Does Rásaíocht Con Éireann have to get permission to do something like that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department does not have to sanction it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The protocol was followed in respect of reporting. To which track does this relate?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is the term of the lease? When does the lease run out?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That will be in 2024.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Would that be under new terms?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is the point in having the lease run out?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much will it cost to renew the lease?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is pointless on the basis that it is just a matter of asking how long the party wants the lease for.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it written in stone that Rásaíocht Con Éireann has written off €250,000 and has a lease date that will expire but can do nothing with it on the basis that the incumbent has the right to renew the lease?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Hearing what I have just said, does that not sound farcical? Does it sound ridiculous or not?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, because apparently, from what Mr Tuohey has just said, nobody else can take it and the company has first refusal.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Unless it does not want to take the track, Rásaíocht Con Éireann can do nothing with it?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can Mr. Tuohey see what I am saying?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Clonmel one of the tracks that the Indecon report recommended-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Which tracks were recommended for closure in that report?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are they back in profit now?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Have they turned around from what was recommended in the Indecon report? I see Mr. Herbert is nodding his head. Could he perhaps elaborate a little?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did the Indecon report cost at the time?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was it carried out in 2016? Perhaps Rásaíocht Con Éireann will furnish the committee with the details. I read that report and it was absolutely farcical. It bore no relation to the track in Enniscorthy whatsoever. Would it be fair to say that was subsequently proved? I do not know Indecon and I am not casting aspersions on it or Rásaíocht Con Éireann, but I would like to see how much the report cost because it was turned on its head.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I raise that one because it is local to me and I am most familiar with it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Rásaíocht Con Éireann very reluctantly engaged with the management in Enniscorthy on the basis that it was going to be a complete closure, whether management liked it or not, until it was able to provide statements, which probably would have caused Rásaíocht Con Éireann legal controversy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was positive because everything in the Indecon report was rubbish. That is the point. How was it that Indecon did not engage with Enniscorthy? It did engage but it declined to include what was said. The point I am making is that when Rásaíocht Con Éireann as a board spends money on reports like that, questions need to be asked and they need to be reviewed. It does not give any confidence to the sector when reports like that are provided. What recommendations were in the report that Rásaíocht Con Éireann carried out?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many tracks did Rásaíocht Con Éireann close?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Were there no arguments of any description in respect of those tracks?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Rásaíocht Con Éireann just went ahead and closed them but nothing similar to what happened in Enniscorthy took place. Why did Rásaíocht Con Éireann not close the Enniscorthy track?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who carried out the subsequent review?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Wait now. Was there a review of the Indecon report?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That was the subsequent review then.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Rásaíocht Con Éireann would be quite happy now.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did Enniscorthy take part in the consultation for Rásaíocht Con Éireann’s strategic plan?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When did Mr. Tuohey say that strategic plan is due to be issued?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That would be next year. Is that covering the years 2023 to 2027?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is over time. Does she have one more quick question?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, I will come back in later if that is okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is seeking a copy of the Indecon report.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, I have it and have read it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful, nonetheless, for the committee to have a copy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes. I am looking for the cost of the report.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy expressed the view that the report is rubbish.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, that is my personal view, contrary to the evidence I have heard.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I believe this report may have been covered in a previous meeting.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask that the Rásaíocht Con Éireann’s backroom team find details on the cost of that Indecon report before the end of the meeting.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can we also ask for a copy of the Jim Power report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. We will take a break now and when we resume the next speaker will be Deputy Carthy.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Will there be a second round?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There will be a second round and a third one if the Deputy so wishes.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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There will be plenty of time then.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before we move on, I believe Mr. Tuohey has figures for us relating to the reports.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Tuohey.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did the Indecon report relate to 2016?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It went on for some time.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Tuohey.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for attending. We invited the then CEO and the board to a meeting in early September, but we were told that it would not be possible because the Irish Greyhound Derby semi-finals and final clashed with the invitation, even though those took place on Monday nights. We learned shortly afterwards that the CEO had resigned. She had only been in place since January. Why did she resign?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Nyhan does not believe that it had to do with internal difficulties within the board.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did exit interviews take place?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was any sought?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland had a CEO who came on board in January and had made a strong impression in terms of her views on the need to reform the sector and the board, particularly as regards financial issues. Eight months later, she announced that she was leaving for another opportunity, but no one on the board decided it would be a good idea to talk to her and find out why she was taking that course of action.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. When will the next CEO be in place?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who dealt with the initial applications and reduced them to the short list of eight?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As in, a board sub-committee.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No person will be on any two strands.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Nyhan will be on all strands.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The board is now at the point of the final interviews.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the remuneration of the CEO's post?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not insignificant. It is a well-remunerated position for someone to leave after eight months. I am not aware of any public announcement of the previous CEO taking on a major new role.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have previously discussed the next matter with the witnesses at this committee or at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I do not understand why Greyhound Racing Ireland accepts the funding model to which it is tied. We could debate whether it gets too much or too little and people will have their own views on that, but the funding it receives annually is directly linked to what another organisation receives. I asked the Comptroller and Auditor General whether there is anything even remotely similar anywhere else in the public finances, but he could not think of any. Why has the board accepted this position and not sought to have it changed?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding comes from the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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A precise percentage of the fund. Every year, Greyhound Racing Ireland gets 20% of that fund regardless of what plans, proposals or ambitions it has for reform, expansion or reorganisation. Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding depends on what another organisation is getting. I do not know how Mr. Nyhan as the chair or how the board have not been kicking up holy hell about this.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The support Greyhound Racing Ireland gets could decrease if Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, brought a bad proposal to the Department and the Department decided that, since HRI got €70 million in 2022, it only needed €60 million next year. Automatically, Greyhound Racing Ireland's funding would be reduced. If the Department decided that the greyhound racing sector needed to be maintained at €18 million per annum, HRI would get €70 million even though there was an adjudication that it only needed €60 million. Does Mr. Nyhan not see the problem?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Explain to me how that works. Does Greyhound Racing Ireland produce a proposal annually?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Nyhan says "tested"-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland will sit across from officials and they will say that it is asking for €21 million. How much did it ask for for 2023?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much did Greyhound Racing Ireland seek for 2023? My understanding is that it has been allocated €18.2 million for 2023.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does anyone know how much Greyhound Racing Ireland sought?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thankfully, the Department is present. I am sure its officials will remember how much was sought.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No. I just want to know how much was sought.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conroy does not have it. Does Mr. Nyhan not believe this is a bit strange? I am asking him about his organisation's submission on how much it felt it needed in State funding for next year. Greyhound Racing Ireland has been allocated €18.2 million - that is subject to Dáil approval, which has not been given yet - yet Mr. Nyhan does not know how much it wanted.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland presented a plan for next year that was dependent on a further €1 million being allocated.
There is a proposal now from the Department for €1 million less than what Greyhound Racing Ireland needed. What will lose out? What was in the organisation's plans that will not be achieved next year as a result of receiving €1 million less than was sought?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When bringing forward the submission for a proposal, does Greyhound Racing Ireland outline on a monthly basis how it plans to expend it in the next year?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So it is for the year. It is a flat rate saying this is how much will be paid on salaries, welfare, prize money, etc. Then Greyhound Racing Ireland gets its allocation, so then it does up a new-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. This is a unique situation. Does Mr. Nyhan understand how it makes no sense to say his organisation sought a certain amount, got less and is taking it on the chin? No other organisation comes before an Oireachtas committee and says it got €1 million less than sought, but that is life.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So Mr. Nyhan would have no difficulty if the Oireachtas decided to halve the funding.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I will go the Department. What evaluations are happening in relation to the horse and greyhound fund? Does the Department still believe that it is appropriate to allocate funding to either organisation in a way that one is dependent on the other?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was the advice from the Attorney General in respect of tying both organisations to each other or in respect of how the horse and greyhound fund is allocated via Dáil approval on an annual basis?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There have been a number of reports: the INDECON report; the Power report; and another one. Is that correct? Another report was published in September 2017.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was an IGB business model analysis carried out by Preferred Results Limited?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How much did that cost?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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After the end of the meeting, Mr. Tuohey can come back with that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct in saying Rásaíocht Con Éireann is facing legal action from the company it paid to procure that 2017 report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How much is being budgeted for that legal action?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why is Rásaíocht Con Éireann opposing that report being published?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe Mr. Nyhan can confirm this for me. His organisation is being sued by that company for defamation. Why is it opposing the publication of that report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses disagree with the main findings of that report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What does it disagree with?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the headline? I do not want Mr. Nyhan to go into detail because there are legal proceedings. What is the issue?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was a further report published recently by Preferred Results outlining that the State is essentially subsidising the British greyhound industry?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that but Mr. Nyhan is aware there is another report.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who commissioned the latest report? If it was not the witnesses' organisation, who was it commissioned by?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But you are aware there is one.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In the report by Preferred Results, one of the critical findings of the analysis was as follows. This is according to the information available to me. If it is wrong it is wrong. It was that "the IGB is not actually a racing-centric organisation and that the primary focus of the organisation is actually on Breeding. That focus causes some 15,000 pups to be bred for racing each year, for a Dog Pool with approximately 3,600 dogs." Do the witnesses disagree with that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a statement in that report. It is stated as a fact. Which of those facts does Mr. Herbert disagree with? "That focus causes some 15,000 pups to be bred for racing each year, for a Dog Pool with approximately 3,600 dogs." Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses agree with the assertion that Rásaíocht Con Éireann is not a racing-centric organisation and the primary focus is on breeding?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So Mr. Herbert disagrees with that. It went on to say that in excess 6,250 dogs - this is 2017 and my understanding is not much has changed since - are exported to England, Scotland and Wales for prices less than 50% of the production cost, a fact that has enabled Irish greyhounds to take over 83% of the British pool of dogs. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is 83%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are breeding 83% of the pool of racing dogs in Britain.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It further stated: "The ... problem emerges with the lack of clarity around what happens to some 6,000 pups each year which [have not been] accounted for". Earlier Deputy Hourigan dealt with this. I welcome the traceability system. That is a positive step. It is important that the industry or sector - "sector" is a better word; "industry" is not good when talking about dogs - should have its reputation protected. I do not have a problem with it once animal welfare is looked after. We want it to be successful. The traceability is there from 12 weeks on. Do the witnesses accept there is an issue with traceability prior to 12 weeks?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
Absolutely. That was the chief impetus of the traceability system. It was taken in the context of "Prime Time" programmes and Preferred Results. We did not have an accurate track of greyhounds in this country prior to that. Since the traceability system was launched, we have.
A considerable amount of work was put into the system in the two years in advance of rolling it out in January of last year. The board, as of last month, has approved further work on the system for expansion in 2023
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The sector receives funding from the 80:20 horse and greyhound racing fund.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That was disputed in this report though. I think the witnesses would accept that. The report outlined that the root causes of the mass culling of pups needed to be addressed and that it could threaten the industry. Do you accept there is an issue to be dealt with?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
I will interject because I knew the Chairman would go down this road. I do not accept that there is mass culling of pups in this country. I fundamentally do not accept that. The traceability system and our increased care and welfare programme have addressed many of the issues. I am not saying there were not issues in the past but we have made significant inroads. I have mentioned before that we are not a perfect industry. We have made considerable inroads in the area of care and welfare. It is no accident that it is the chief focus of our current board. It is also the chief focus of the strategic plan to which the chairman alluded earlier on. It is to the forefront of this. If this is industry is to have any longevity, let there be no doubt among the members, the clear war chest of the industry has to be the care and welfare of the greyhounds in this country.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think we would dispute that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, there is a considerable difference between the figures that are produced and the figures that wind up in the pool. It is a percentage.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does that include greyhounds under 12 weeks?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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You are saying you can only account for those. I understand you cannot account for greyhounds from the moment of birth. You are telling me you can account for all greyhounds but we know you cannot account for anything up to 12 weeks. Are the 12 weeks statutory? Can it go beyond 12 weeks? Can an owner let it run to 13 or 14 weeks? Is there flexibility or is set at 12 weeks?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you give me a "Yes" or "No"?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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By 12 weeks.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is clear.
Mr. Pat Herbert:
It is important to note that the traceability system refers to racing greyhounds in this country for which we are responsible for by statute. It does not relate to coursing greyhounds. However, we capture information on whelping; location; controller; age; sex; and microchip to age two. We also capture information on the death, sale and export of greyhounds and their retirement as a pet and potential for racing. We have the ability to edit details such as change of location, loss, theft and provision of a routine update of when they are kennels or transfer location. More importantly, there is a provision that anybody who does not comply with the updates that are required of traceability is immediately suspended from entering greyhounds at tracks and does not get the option to draw down any past prize money won.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The report was commissioned by your board, Mr. Nyhan. Are you concerned about the fact that you have basically rejected the report and now face having to defend a legal action. Are you concerned about that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are you concerned about the fact that you commissioned this report and find yourselves in a situation where you face legal action by the body that carried out the report? Is it worrying for the board?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
I do not think it is because what we are being sued for is what we said before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine which is that we do not agree with the results of that report. The board of which I was a member handled that report very badly. The board received a commissioned report which it did not pass on to the Department or make public. It should have done so. That has been ventilated here previously. That aspect of it is indefensible. The figures in the Preferred Results report are not correct as far as I and the board are concerned. That is why we introduced a traceability system which establishes beyond doubt that the assumptions made by Preferred Results are incorrect.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the improvement in the traceability system. The Minister has a copy of that report. Is that right?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why has the Minister's office not received that report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are you saying that Rásaíocht Con Éireann has not given the Department the full report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why is that, Mr. Nyhan?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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You are chairman of the board.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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You have been up-front about that but we are going into 2023. Why has that report not been given to the Department?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you check with your board? Have members of the board disagreed with giving the report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you give an assurance that the Department will have a copy of it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you, Mr. Conroy, ensure that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, sees this report?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is correct.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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When one goes through the accounts, it is very difficult to break down the welfare spend. Some €524,000 went into the greyhound care fund in 2021. That is a decrease of €668,000 from 2020. There was €464,000 and €235,000 for both years for the retired greyhound fund. Will you provide us with a simple note for the three years to break down how the care fund is funded and managed? How does the money go in and out? I cannot figure it out and there seems to be a considerable decrease from one year to the other. That cannot explained by Covid because care has to happen regardless of Covid.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Will you break down the money in and out for 2019, 2020 and 2021 and how the fund is funded?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand Mr. Conroy became assistant secretary recently. I was looking up the Department's organisational structure and he is not on it. I was wondering how that was. He may wish to update it. Under what section of the Department does the greyhound industry fall? I cannot find it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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As regards the whole issue of greyhounds and the greyhound industry, is that within the Department?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Can Mr. Conroy provide information for me on dates and attendees of all meetings between the Department and Rasaíocht Con Éireann and how often they have discussed welfare at their Min-MAC meetings, since this Government came into office? I want information on dates and attendees of every meeting between the Department and the organisation, as well as a copy of any Min-MAC minutes relating to welfare within the greyhound industry.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will find that out from the Min-MAC minutes. That is good. I have two more quick questions. There are four private tracks and the rest are publicly owned. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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In relation to private tracks and in respect of subsidies for private tracks versus the money that is sent into public tracks, can we get the breakdown of how much funding and how many employees, both full-time and part-time, there are across every track in Ireland? I ask this so that we can see that subsidies or moneys that are given to each track, whether it is public or private, as well as the number of employees. That information would be interesting.
My last question is in relation to attendance. This is probably a question for the chairman or for the chief executive. The targeted attendance for race meetings is 630,000. Now that we have come out of Covid-19, do they think this will be achievable?
Another question that I get asked a lot is that there seems to be a huge number of concessionary tickets when it comes to greyhound venues. The witnesses have produced figures regarding revenues and attendance records but if they deduct the concessions, what would they then be? Can they provide us with a table on that per year, if possible, particularly in relation to Shelbourne Park for the last three years?
My last question is probably to the chairman and is on the issue of greyhound racing and coursing. Are there any plans to try to draw a distinction between the two? That is my last question. I think it would be supportive of the greyhound racing fraternity and the ethos of that, as well as the issue of people attending races and community groups and families attending race groups and not being concerned about welfare. Has any work been done on that or is it in gestation?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Hence the question.
Mr. Pat Herbert:
The two have diverged in separate ways along their own ways. Both industries are regulated but we have diverged. The strategic focus of Greyhound Racing Ireland has been in developing its own industry from a regulatory perspective. Many of the legacy issues, such as consent to exclusion orders and issues like that were contained in the 1958 Act and involved the direct input of the Irish Coursing Club in such regulatory matters, have been dispensed with and addressed in the Greyhound Racing Act 2019. Section 28 additionally provides for the traceability system, which was heretofore unheard of. All such matters had been previously managed by the Irish Coursing Club from a registration perspective. The 2019 Act gives us the statutory basis to do what the Deputy is talking about-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is Rasaíocht Con Éireann going to do it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Hourigan.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to cover the issues of traceability and the current strategic plan. We have already established that the traceability system covers racing greyhounds. Is that correct? Correct. We have also just established that the greyhound racing industry produces a large number of dogs that do not necessarily end up racing. Would it not be more appropriate to have a traceability system that covers all non-coursing greyhounds? I am short on time so quick answers would be helpful.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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My question is about how the definition of a racing greyhound will necessarily omit certain dogs that are there and are living as a result of the greyhound industry. Would the definition of non-coursing greyhounds be more appropriate for the traceability scheme?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The answer can be a “Yes” or a “No”.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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There are very few.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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For the sake of clarity and traceability, the numbers that are there that are not vested at their beginnings in the greyhound industry or the coursing industry are minuscule. For clarity and for traceability and to do what it says on the tin in the spirit of traceability, would it not be more appropriate to define them as non-coursing greyhounds?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We have very little time.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes, for coursing greyhounds but my point is that both those industries produce dogs as a result of their activities that do not end up coursing or running in a race and this traceability system does not cover them.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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So, is it the case that it does not cover all the dogs that are produced and are living due to the greyhound racing industry?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is it the case that the general public has no access to that traceability system?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Authorised users have a username and a password, and they can access the traceability scheme but authorised users can only see their own greyhounds.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is the Department happy with that level of transparency in the traceability scheme?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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My question is about the transparency of traceability.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I would put it to the Department that it is a basic principle of a traceability scheme that we all know what is happening. If I cannot look up a dog and check what has happened to them, it is problematic. It is not truly transparent, and it is not something that we can rely on.
I want to go back to the numbers that the chairman raised because we have established in earlier contributions that on average every year, 14,000 to 15,000 pups are born. Mr. Herbert told me earlier that 4,500 of those go to racing, 5,800 to go export and 2,000 are rehomed. That leaves 2,500 that are unaccounted for.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes, but that still leaves 2,500 that are unaccounted for. Is Mr. Herbert saying that are 2,500 that are retired and not rehomed?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is it not the case that those retired greyhounds are mostly in the rehomed number?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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So, where are the other 2,500? I know that earlier Mr. Herbert said that they fell over on the farm and I know that he thinks that I am a townie but come on.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Mr. Herbert said that things happen on farms. As much as I live in town, I do not think that that could account for 2,500 dogs.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay, but he has just said that there is no culling, that there is no system of culling and that there is no accepted practice of culling in the industry. It is a simple question, therefore. Where are the 2,500 dogs?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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No, that does not tell me about where the 2,500 dogs are. I will move on because I want to get to the strategic plan, and I only have one minute left.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy can take her time. She should try to get an answer to her question.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. Where are the 2,500 dogs, then?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes. I am using the numbers that Mr. Herbert gave during the course of this session.
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
In relation to retired dogs, there is a difference, because there are dogs that are in the active pool and there are dogs that race. It is a racing pool, so when a greyhound is entered for a race, it enters the racing pool, but when it races it comes off it. It does not stay in it until it is re-entered to the next race.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is Mr. Fitzgerald telling me that an 18-month old dog that runs a race on a Tuesday is registered on the traceability scheme as retired on a Thursday and then is back racing from Saturday? Is that what he is describing?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Then I am going to put the retired dogs into the 2,000 that get rehomed.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is Mr. Fitzgerald telling me that the 4,500 number is not indicative of how many dogs are in the racing pool in Ireland? A couple of years ago it was 3,500. Mr. Fitzgerald now seems to be saying it is in the region of 6,000. That is a completely different number from the one he provided in the report.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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In the last six weeks.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What is the classification for those that are not active? Surely it cannot be that they are retired.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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How many dogs are inactive?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The witnesses look at the numbers every day. I am sure there is a ballpark figure. Is it 2,500?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
I can give the Deputy the exact figure from the traceability system from its first year of operation, 2021. The data set includes greyhounds that raced, trialled and were microchipped from 2021 on. Some 23,760 greyhounds were subject to traceability in 2021. Of those, 18,538 were active, in other words, raced or trialled, and 5,222 were inactive.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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To be clear, we are producing 14,000 pups a year and there are 23,000-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Mr. Herbert has still not given me the number I was looking for, that is, the number of inactive dogs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There will be a third round.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to cover the strategic plan. If that includes export and the figure is 5,000 dogs, we have already established that the export numbers are much higher than that. That does not add up. I am asking Mr. Herbert where the 2,500 dogs are.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It does not cover the export numbers. Does Rasaíocht Con Éireann not use the export numbers in its business case? Mr. Herbert has just said the export numbers are fundamental to the business model.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that Mr. Herbert furnish the committee with a detailed breakdown of the traceability system for 2022 to help the Deputy and the committee to understand it. We are moving towards the end of the year now.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We would like to get exact figures for each category. Would that be helpful for Deputy Hourigan?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have a question for Mr. Tuohey. I said the initial figure for debt owing for Clonmel was €500,000. We have the capital debt, but then there was a figure of €277,000 that reduced to €212,000 in 2021. Does that have to be paid before the lease expires or before it is renewed?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is a roll-over.
Mr. John Tuohey:
There are a number of elements to the Clonmel debt. In order to create a solid repayment schedule, there is an agreement relating to a telecoms mast that is in the greyhound stadium. The income from the mast was originally going to the Davis Road Greyhound Stadium company. That was legally reassigned to RCÉ. The income from that is €18,000 per annum. Over a ten-year period, that was to take care of €180,000 of the debt. It was ring-fenced as part of an overall agreement.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Every year, €18,000 will come off that until the debt is cleared.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I must be honest that I am not happy with the fact that the company contracted a mast on RCÉ's property.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I do not think Mr. Nyhan did that lease. Thank God for that.
I want to come back to the issue of the CEO. There is no point in beating around the bush. The elephant in the room is that there have been a number of rolling CEOs and nobody lasts for very long. It is an industry that is just like Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, when it comes in here, in that the whole industry is based on integrity. The integrity of the industry is what allows the funding and the transparency but when we have CEOs who only last for six months, it does not bode well for the sector as a whole. What concerns me is that when Deputy Carthy asked Mr. Nyhan if an exit interview was done, the answer was "No". Mr. Nyhan is a professional man - I was in that profession for eight years - and nobody could credibly say they did not carry out an exit interview with a CEO who only lasted six months. Is there a reason he did not do an exit interview?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
No, I thought, and I still think, I had very good, positive relations with the outgoing CEO. I was on the committee that appointed her. I was chairman at the time. I thought we worked very well together. I was very disappointed when she left, but I must say she co-operated fully in the handover. She was present and assisted until Mr. Tuohey took over. There was no issue between us.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that, but what I am asking is why Mr. Nyhan did not think to ask her why she was leaving.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That was a kind of an exit interview, even if it was probably only a chat. Is the reality that she had no issue and that the job she was taking was paying more or the RCÉ was not her cup of tea?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I know that, but Mr. Nyhan is the common denominator between the two. How is he going to know whether he will make the same mistake again when he does the next interview?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If it happens again this time next year, I will categorise it for him.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, but there has been quite a number over a ten-year period. It is a concern for me when people in the sector say that it is an issue. What they frequently say is that they need somebody with experience of the sector as the CEO.
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
It is also a concern for me because I am a non-executive chairman and I would like to stay as a non-executive chairman. The vast sums of money the Minister pays me do not mean that I can be an executive chairman. I am as interested as everybody else in getting a person into this role. We have gone through two rounds of a very vigorous interview process and I am pretty confident that we will find ourselves with a very good CEO before the end of the year.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My concern is we have one who lasts. My point is whether Mr. Nyhan takes on board that there should be someone with sectoral experience in the role. Before I became a politician, I came from a very difficult sector. It is a role that I can say here and now that nobody understands if they are not in the sector. I refer to road transport. One could not come in as a CEO with a business degree and just operate it. One must have an understanding of the sector. I am not saying that is the case; Mr. Nyhan's own patrons are saying it.
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
It would be helpful for a new chief executive to have some knowledge of the industry. I would say to Deputy Murphy, however, that Ger Dollard, who did a very good job and I do not think anybody would characterise him as other than a good chief executive, had no experience of the industry before he joined. It really does depend on the character of the individual and their capacity to learn and get involved.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I know that but if we consider the number of reports that were carried out under Mr. Dollard's tenure, he might look at that differently.
I am not trying to be difficult.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I do not mean it that way. What I mean is that difficulties arose in that period.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That was before my time so I will not comment. Regarding one thing that I thought was very favourable to RCÉ, how did the pilot programme it ran relating to a subsidy for kennels go? Was it subscribed to, oversubscribed or undersubscribed?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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For the benefit of the committee, Mr. Fitzgerald might give us a flavour of what it was about.
Mr. William Fitzgerald:
The concept behind the scheme was that there was a grant of €2,500 available to kennel owners. There was a strong welfare basis behind it. When kennel owners applied, kennels were inspected. If no issues were encountered during the initial welfare inspection, they were given the green light to proceed with the works required. Again, there was an emphasis that the works to be undertaken had to have a strong welfare benefit. It could not just be for want-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Maintenance.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Mr. Fitzgerald have a figure as to how many subscribed?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was that a once-off or does Greyhound Racing Ireland intend to run it again?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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From a welfare perspective, it probably is something that should be continued but with inspection levels that warrant-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If the Deputy has more questions, she can come back in a few moments.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am afraid I have to leave as I have speaking time in the Dáil.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Parliamentary duties.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am afraid so. We look forward to the new CEO next year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Greyhound Racing Ireland has supplied some information around turnover, attendance and various other figures. It appears there has been a significant drop-off since 2010. I would like to see the graph going the other way. It is an important sector. The turnover in 2010 was €33 million. Granted, the figures for 2020 and 2021 are not real figures because of Covid but if you look at 2019, turnover was down in the region of €22 million or €23 million. That is a significant drop off in turnover.
I looked at the surplus each year. There was a spike in 2018 but that was due to the sale of Harold's Cross. There was a bump there that managed to stabilise Greyhound Racing Ireland's finances. Regarding the fall in turnover from €33 million in 2010 to €23 million in 2019, what explanation is there for that consistent fall-off in revenue? What happened in those nine years?
Mr. John Tuohey:
There was a decline in attendance during that period. That was evident. Obviously, it had an impact on revenue-generating ability. If we look at where we are now and the future, we need to focus on how we address that. We are at a point where we must start rebuilding the industry and attendances. We have taken steps with regard to that commercial sector.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hiring a commercial manager.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I was surprised by the drop-off during that nine-year period. Is the Department concerned about that? Have there been discussions with the Minister around it, in view of the fact that funding for the sector is increasing?
Mr. Gordon Conroy:
There was a clear fall in the numbers in the period outlined by the Chairman. That was probably reflective of the controversies linked to this. We all saw the "Prime Time Investigates" programme. It has been much more positive recently in terms of the interaction with the sector. Attendances are rising, greyhound racing is back on television and sponsors are getting involved again. This is probably reflective of Rasaíocht Con Éireann's efforts, including its animal welfare measures. The strategic plan we will get early next year from Rasaíocht Con Éireann will certainly advise us in terms of how proceed and how the sector-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Between the board and the Department, is there a projection of what the target needs to be by 2030 in terms of turnover?
Mr. Gordon Conroy:
When we see the strategic plan, it will be linked into attendances and other measures. Our funding each year is set out and is linked to certain parameters we agree with the sector. It would not necessarily go into the detail of attendances and so on. It would be more high level than that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of attendances is key. Will a target be set in that strategic plan?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
In response to Deputy Colm Burke earlier, I said that part of the plan would be to reduce our dependence on State funding. Obviously, a significant part of that has to involve increasing attendances. The Chairman asked about the period from 2009 onwards, which was probably the nadir in terms of attendances. A number of things happened. Public practices and habits changed. People stopped going out as much as they did previously and started watching greyhound racing and other sports on television and elsewhere and there was a change in public perception of dogs and their treatment. We were probably slow to react to public perception. In the past few years, we have changed our emphasis entirely and moved to an emphasis on the welfare of the dog, an emphasis that has always been there but has never been properly publicised. Once we have established that in the minds of the general public, we can start tackling the question of attendance but we had to do that first and I hope we have done that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Attendances in 2019, which is the last realistic year by which you can judge this, went down to 463,000. Rasaíocht Con Éireann aims to get that up to 630,000. The last time this figure was seen was in 2015. If we go back to 2008, over 1.1 million people attended race meetings. It is significant. We are looking at less than 40% of that figure. That is a shocking figure in terms of commercial activity and the promotion of the sector. Would Mr. Nyhan agree with that?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
I agree with the Chairman. This is a big shortfall to be made up. I do not think we will ever get back to those attendance figures because public habits have changed. Our sister organisation Horse Racing Ireland has the same issue. I do not think people are going to go out as often so we are going to have to look at other revenue streams.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to ask about attendances at race meetings. In 2021, there were 1,384 race meetings. Would that be a typical year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is good. However, if we take the last year for which we can realistically assess the attendance it is 463,000 and there is an average of, say, 1,400 race meetings per year, that tells us the attendance at race meetings is in the region of perhaps 300 per meeting. Would that be correct, as an average?
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
There is a difficulty with that in that some meetings are not really run for the public. Some of the races, like Sports Information Services, SIS-type races, are run early in the morning, on Sunday afternoon and other times like that which are not public-friendly. Therefore, it does not work out as a straight average.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What kind of average attendance is there?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am always meaning to go. I have been asked many times but I have not gone. I will some time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have to be careful with that kind of thing now. I have to pay at the gate like everyone else.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I just want an average. I have another question Mr. Nyhan might answer for me. With other sports, attendance has shot up in 2022. I am told soccer is one and GAA is doing quite well, but greyhound racing attendance does not appear to have lifted.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is coming back fairly well though.
Mr. Frank Nyhan:
Horse racing figures are not back at previous levels. I saw yesterday that Tourism Ireland and Bord Fáilte were talking about the tourism rate being at around 75%. This year we are coming in at about 70% of the 2019 figure. That is probably okay. It will need to be better next year but it is okay for this year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A question was asked around concession tickets and the figures for 2021 and 2022. I do not think the RCÉ officials have them to hand but I ask they come back to us on that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage, roughly, of those who come through the gates are on concession tickets? Does RCÉ have a guide for that of, say, between 2% and 5%?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there no policy?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The board does not take any hand in that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It does not, okay. I ask RCÉ to come back to us with that figure. What is the average attendance, Mr. Tuohey?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is quite low.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As part of the preparation of the strategic plan, is RCÉ examining the number of stadiums?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some may not be viable.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I call Deputy Hourigan.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair. I want to stay on the strategic plan, that is, the existing one, and seek updates about what was implemented. There was an aim in the plan to extend the racing life of dogs from I believe 48 months to 72 months. Where are we with that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Are we saying there is no longer an aim to extend the life of a racing dog to 72 months?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We are not actually running any races, based on that.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. I was under the impression the reason it was in the strategic plan and we wanted to do it was A, it would cost the taxpayer less and it would require fewer dogs and B, it would improve animal welfare outcomes because there would be fewer collateral pups. Is that a fair categorisation of why we would extend to 72 months?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We have ceased to run those races because not enough people were participating.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. Will we see the extension to 72 months in the new strategic plan?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Considering we are not running any races I am not hopeful.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does the Department take a view on that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Department will not give any guidance or leadership to RCÉ about what it would like to see, even when it is something like this, which specifically reduces the cost to the taxpayer.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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But the Department does not take a view on this.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. Are there plans to set up the stud book? As I understand it, the stud book would be a significant income stream but at the moment we leave it to coursing. Are we planning to do that? That was in the strategic plan, was it?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It has been in the strategic plan for five years.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What work have we done on that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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How many?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Why not?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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From where?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am sorry, will Mr. Nyhan say that again?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Are we leaving it to coursing then?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What revenue does it gain from that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes. Does Mr. Nyhan want to put a number on it?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is a significant number though. We might be talking about hundreds of thousands of euro, or €1 million.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. It would seem in RCÉ's strategic plan there is a considerable revenue stream open to it but the organisation has not done any strategic work to complete it. Is that a fair observation?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has RCÉ done any strategic work to complete that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Would the Department like to comment on that? It would seem fairly fundamental.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am sorry but I must stop Mr. Conroy. As I understand it the ICC goes across to Northern Ireland as well. Is that right? It has some jurisdiction in Northern Ireland.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Exactly, so in the context of the operations of RCÉ it seems problematic that we would vest the stud book with an organisation that has other remits and requirements. I am therefore asking the Department what its guidance or interaction with RCÉ has been on the organisation setting up its own stud book? Has the Department identified the fact there is a conflict there if we leave it to coursing, which it seems we are? We are just accepting this considerable income stream is just going to be left to a different group.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Department has not had any conversations around that.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What does Mr. Nyhan say?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Department is saying it has not had any major conversations with RCÉ around the stud book.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can I get clarity on that Chair?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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When was the last time it was discussed?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Could the Department check that, please? I do not know about minutes. Was it a throw-away comment or was there serious strategic discussions about how it would be achieved?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is the Department in a position to make the Attorney General's advice on the fund available to the committee?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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No, if Mr. Conroy could just send it on to the committee, that would be very helpful.
We just discussed Exchequer funding. We were told there was a desire to move away from Exchequer funding if possible and that the board would build its own income sources. Is it challenging to move away from Exchequer funding in the context of being locked into a fund where an entity receives money regardless of its own plans?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I suppose what I am asking is if RCÉ can raise income itself does it propose to return funding to the Department?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Completely independent of State funding?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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RCÉ's strategic plan is based on it receiving an increase in funding. That is my reading.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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RCÉ has asked for more than it has received.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does the Department take a view on the fact that the strategic plan rests on increased funding?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Funding is sometimes hard to understand. Do we have access to all the electronic readings of gate receipts from all the stadiums?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Have we access to feasibility studies for capital improvements to Shelbourne Park and Kilkenny? Has that work been done? This is still in the realm of the strategic plan.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has RCÉ tendered for that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, Deputy.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can I just ask one question?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to test traceability a little. I refer to an Irish-born greyhound. Am I allowed to name it? Yes, I am because it is public knowledge.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, if it is in the public domain.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Laughil Roxy broke her hock at a UK track. The UK trainer did not take the dog to the vet for immediate treatment despite instruction from the track vet. On instruction from the owner in Ireland, she was transported to Ireland against track vet advice. The Irish owner did not seek vet treatment for the dog for a week and then she was euthanised. Based on the traceability system now in place, was Laughil Roxy entered back onto the RCÉ traceability system on her return to Ireland?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to clarify that the Deputy is quoting from a media report.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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In the case of a dog that is injured on a UK track and renters the country, does that go on the RCÉ traceability system?
Mr. Pat Herbert:
To put it in context, a number of matters are being investigated around that greyhound. On traceability, once a greyhound is exported and the update is provided that the greyhound is exported to the UK, the greyhound will fall off the owner's account and there are no further requirements on traceability.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Therefore it never comes back on the Irish traceability system. The dog is in this country. It is not now, because it has been euthanised.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay. The answer is "No". That dog that was euthanised on Irish soil by Irish trainers is not covered by our traceability system. Is that correct?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It came home very badly injured and was euthanised here. Does the Department want to comment? Does it fulfil the spirit of the traceability system?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I can provide details. To be honest the details of the particular dog do not make any difference and I believe that that case has been dealt with by UK authorities. However, the dog comes home to an Irish trainer - it is an Irish dog - and it is euthanised here because it is so badly injured but it is not covered by our traceability system. RCÉ has just confirmed that is correct. Is the Department happy with that level of traceability?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is really a "Yes" or "No". Does it fulfil traceability?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Still to come you mean?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I mentioned the Preferred Results Ltd report earlier. It was dated 29 September 2017. Can Mr. Nyhan confirm if it is publicly available?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It contained a number of assertions. They included that the industry needed to act to prevent the low-cost dumping of dogs into Britain which is ultimately underpinned by the Irish taxpayer. Does Mr. Nyhan agree with that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Tuohey agree?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Why?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Tuohey saying that it did not happen?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Surplus.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Not directly. Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Indirectly though, could the €18 million or €19 million provide the sector with the means to do it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Obviously the authors of the report disagree with that. The report also outlined the need for an export levy or controls over exports to ensure that market prices prevail. Would RCÉ agree with an export levy?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That report said that any reduction in exports is an opportunity to expand the sale of racing content into the UK betting market. Does RCÉ agree with that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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My concern is that the board commissioned the report but it has not agreed to any of its key findings. I often ask someone questions and the answers might not be what you want but of five answers there might be two or three that you agree with.
Here one has a detailed report carried out and Mr. Tuohey, as the CEO, and Mr. Nyhan, as the cathaoirleach of the board, are telling me that they do not agree with any of the key findings of that report. Does Mr. Tuohey not find that odd?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Nyhan find it unusual as the chairperson of the board? Boards will commission reports. They will look for papers on various different things. One might not agree with everything that comes back but in this case, fundamentally, they have agreed with every one of the key findings of that report.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the witnesses for the information they supplied. We have had a good examination of the sector this morning.
There is a lot done. We accept that there are improvements to traceability, etc. That is happening. That is good.
There are figures for the past ten years. Other members and I quote data that show there would be issues for concern. Hopefully, it can be lifted.
I hope it is accepted that the welfare issue is directly linked to the attendance and the credibility of the sector. We want to see improvements. I am sure the Department officials do as well. It is really important that that happens. That is the message going from here this morning that there have been improvements made and we want to see significant improvements. I look forward to the strategic plan, hopefully, that can point the way forward for the sector over the next eight or ten years.
I thank the Rasaíocht Con Éireann representatives for attending and the officials from the Department for the work involved in preparing for the meeting. I also thank the staff from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for attending today and assisting the committee.
Is it agreed that the clerk to the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.
The meeting will suspended until 1.30 p.m. when we will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business of the committee.