Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I remind all witnesses, members and those in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones. The purpose of today's meeting is the continued examination of peat shortages in the horticulture sector. The committee will hear from the Minister of State, Senator Pippa Hackett, and officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and they may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matter arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurances in the context of participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts. Members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The committee will hear from the Minister of State with special responsibility for land use and biodiversity, Senator Hackett. The officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine accompanying the Minister of State are Ms Louise Byrne, deputy chief inspector, Ms Deirdre Fay, senior inspector and head of the horticulture and plant health division and Ms Rachel Wisdom, agriculture inspector in the horticulture and planning division.

Before the Minister of State gives her opening statement, I thank her for coming to this meeting. We have issued various invitations to other Ministers regarding the issue of horticulture and peat but we have failed to get those relevant Ministers to appear before us. We had representatives from the horticultural peat sector with us some weeks ago, including representatives of those stakeholders using horticultural peat. They were extremely worried about the availability of this material and the economic consequences for their industry if they cannot secure availability of suitable peat. It was recognised that as soon as an economic alternative can be found it will be possible to cease harvesting peat, but we are not at that point now.

I am extremely worried for the future of the users of peat now. To say these people were concerned the last day they were with us would be a serious understatement. They face many challenges with the rise in energy costs. Being unable to get suitable Irish peat poses an extremely serious issue in the context of the future viability of this industry. The witnesses who were with us gave figures concerning production capacity in respect of imported peat. Leaving aside the cost and the carbon footprint associated with bringing in that peat, the production capacity in that context was significantly lower than what they would have had from Irish peat.

As I said, we appreciate the Minister of State coming in. This is a topic we have addressed continuously in the last several years. Unfortunately, we do not yet seem to have got a solution to harvesting the small acreage of peat that would be required for the horticultural industry. I call the Minister of State to give her opening statement.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I thank the Chair and the committee members for the invitation. I am pleased to be here to speak to the committee on this important but difficult matter of horticultural peat. I am joined by my all-woman team of officials that the Chair introduced. I do not know how often this happens here. I thank them for being here.

As Minister with responsibility for horticulture, I want, at the outset, to highlight the importance of the horticultural sector and its significant contribution to the economy. The horticultural sector is the fourth largest sector in agriculture, which is often forgotten, with a farm-gate value of almost €521 million in 2021. An estimated 17,600 people are employed in the sector at both primary and value-added levels. Peat, as we all know, is a finite resource and the horticulture sector acknowledges the need to move away from using peat as a growing medium. I welcome the general agreement by the horticulture industry that the use of peat should be phased out by 2030, or by 2035 at the very latest, provided that alternative materials are available.

The sector is already using alternatives to peat, reducing the amount used and carrying out research into alternatives. However, approximately 60% of the value of Irish horticulture is dependent on peat as a growth medium, with the mushroom, amenity and soft-fruit sectors being most reliant. There is a recognition that a very limited amount of peat is required for a period in certain sectors, in professional horticulture in particular, until affordable, sustainable alternatives that meet quality, environmental and productivity requirements are available.

As the committee is well aware, the extraction of peat for the Irish professional horticultural industry in recent years has been challenging from a legal and regulatory perspective. A series of High Court judgments, beginning in the early 2010s, that dealt with peat extraction and a lack of compliance across the extraction sector have generated supply challenges for the horticulture sector.

As members knows, my Department has no role in the peat extraction regulatory framework and is engaged in trying to identify a supply of peat for the horticulture sector during the transitionary period to peat-free alternatives. While the dual consent regulatory framework provides a route for legally compliant extraction, it is complex. This has resulted in non-engagement by some extractors and frustration among those who have engaged with the process. Peat currently used by industry is both sourced in Ireland and imported. Diminished supplies of peat from existing stockpiles and the costs associated with peat imports increase the challenge for the sector. There are potential concerns for the viability of some in the sector at a time when increases in other input costs, arising from the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, are also having significant impacts. The working paper to address challenges related to peat supply in the horticulture sector was put in place by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, in conjunction with the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It followed the publication of the final report of the working group on the use of peat moss in the horticulture industry. The paper, published in January of this year, set out a series of actions to address the difficulties being faced by horticultural growers who are dependent on peat as a growing medium. The actions include a range of targeted measures which reflect the multifaceted nature of the problem and the need for short-, medium- and long-term solutions. These actions also include the longer term issue of replacement with alternatives. The ultimate ambition of these actions is to support the horticulture industry, the people employed therein and the many families that depend on this important sector.

Progress has been made in the implementation of these actions. Regarding the short-term actions, a guidance document on the regulatory framework for peat extraction was commissioned by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. This expert guidance document is publicly available.

Mr. Séamus Boland of Irish Rural Link was commissioned by my Department to carry out the short-term action of identifying the level and suitability of current peat stocks and identification of potential sub-30 ha sites. A final report on the assessment of the levels and suitability of current indigenous peat stocks, identification of sub-30 ha sites and other recommendations to support domestic horticulture industry as it transitions to peat alternatives will be published shortly after this committee meeting. Mr. Boland was unable to get accurate information on peat supplies or suitable sub-30 ha sites due to lack of engagement from relevant stakeholders. Nevertheless, he made a number of recommendations which are being considered across Government.

In addressing the medium-term actions a working paper produced by Des Johnson and Padraic Thornton. They were also commissioned by my Department. This working paper is to provide a guide to those wishing to achieve regulatory compliance for extraction of horticultural peat on sub-30 ha bogs. The users guide for planning and environmental regulatory processes, that applies specifically to peat extraction activity for horticulture purposes on sites of less than 30 ha in Ireland will also be published later today. Concerns have been expressed that the current legal framework is complex, which may have contributed to a lack of engagement by some players. The guide produced by Mr. Johnson and Mr. Thornton, together with earlier guidance, should assist stakeholders wishing to become legally compliant, and all stakeholders are encouraged to engage with the regulatory framework in place.

Looking to the longer term, my Department continues to support and facilitate research in the development of alternatives to peat for horticulture. It awarded €1.69 million to a research project called Beyond Peat, with a project start date of 1 February 2022. The project is co-ordinated by the Teagasc horticultural development department, with project partners from the Technological University of the Shannon, University College Cork, University College Dublin, University of Limerick and the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute in Northern Ireland. The project aims to identify full and partial replacements for peat within professional horticulture, preferably with materials sourced in Ireland. The project is progressing well and is scheduled to run from 2022 to 2027. Different materials are being investigated for their suitability and availability. My Department has separately provided significant funding for research projects on peat alternatives under the EU producer organisation scheme for fruit and vegetables implemented by officials in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Trials at semi-commercial level are ongoing and the results are promising. It appears that a substantial reduction in peat usage for casing in the mushroom industry may be achievable.

I am acutely aware of the difficulties associated with peat supply in the horticulture sector. I am also acutely aware of the impact this issue is having on many farm families and businesses that are the bed rock of this valuable sector. I assure the committee that the Government has worked as a priority to address the actions in the working paper and address challenges related to peat supply in the horticulture sector. Industry too must play its part and we must work together to ensure a supply of peat is available for the horticulture sector until alternatives are widely available. My Department will continue to engage across Government and continues to work closely with the sector to assist in the transition to peat-free alternatives. I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee and I am happy to take any questions and to tease out these issues further.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in. It was 11 a.m. today when we got some of these reports. It is rather short notice. We are trying to read through the different pieces. Regarding Irish Rural Link, I think we should being in Mr. Boland, who wrote this report, and the participants from the peat sector. I will propose this and I hope it will be seconded. As members are aware, I made a few phone calls before the meeting started but my understanding is that Growing Media Ireland, GMI, was contacted. There are allegations in the report about non co-operation and different things. This is very harsh stuff and we need to check it out to see who is right and wrong. GMI is over the four larger operators that do peat in this country. It replied back. My understanding is that it contacted Mr. Boland. The Irish Farmers Association, IFA, had not been contacted but then it was contacted. The IFA was involved with people who use the peat. People who use the peat do not store it in large quantities. Kildare growers just get enough in for themselves, so they would not know the quantities involved. I hope that proposal would be seconded.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I second that proposal.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When we bring this down to the nub of the issue, while agriculture is partly involved in this sector, it is down to planning to resolve the issue. That is where the problem is. I noted Mr. Boland's recommendations that there be a pilot scheme and a team of planners in each council that should be available when looked for. I do not think that is going to happen. They cannot get enough planners to do a housing application at the moment right around the country. The second thing he talks about is a Bord na Móna site subject to planning permission. None of them has it in Bord na Móna at the moment. This will delay the rehabilitation of a site where there is suitably qualified peat. The third one is the Rochfortbridge site I am familiar with where Cement Roadstone Holdings, CRH, dig out sand underneath. The peat is all bulldozed and thrown off first. On a drag line, it is coming into Dublin and other places, I presume, and you get sand up out of it. It is plastered in sand or whatever is in it. The intention is that those two places would be used.

My understanding from the last time GMI was in that there was something like 1,400 ha or 1,500 ha required right around the country to service the industry, which those two recommendations will not cover.

When you read the report, and I cannot find the exact piece now, it talks about the sub-30 ha and this is what I want to find out from the Minister of State. Mr. Boland seems to be saying the only game in town in terms of trying to resolve it is that there are two consent systems to be gone through. He then talks about a case in the High Court. He names the individuals on the document. I will not name them, as it might have repercussions. What is in the report is that we are back to looking at a Bord na Móna site in Rochfortbridge. We are back to looking at another Bord na Móna site that we would not rehabilitate. We are looking at a team of planners that would be put in place to help the applicants.

We are looking at a team of planners that will be put in place to help the applicants. There is still some doubt about the sub-30 ha. Is there anything new in that report, other than what I have said?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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As the Deputy highlighted, it is an incredibly difficult place. The recommendations in the report will be examined. It needs a cross-government approach. In response to some of the comments, I do not know if I would agree that it is harsh to say that people did not engage. My understanding is that only five out of 90 did not.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I do not know. We have to find out.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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If it is being said, it is being said for a reason. I understand only five out of 90 people contacted or groups contacted responded to Mr. Boland's queries at the start. In a way, we are always very much in the dark in this situation. We do not have full access to all the information. We do not always have full access to where stock is being held, and for maybe the right reasons because people are worried. Maybe they are accessing it and they do not want to share that information.

Ultimately, much of this is down to planning. There is the recommendation to having a team of planners and those planners would work across multiple local authorities. It would not just be a number in each local authority. We are only looking at particular areas of the country where this would be an issue. Certain areas would require access more than others.

In terms of the area, our estimates of what would be needed would be about 277 ha per annum for the sector.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is that for both the mushroom and the horticulture sectors?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Yes, mushrooms is about 10 ha to 15 ha because it goes down-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is all subject to how good a summer is. A bad summer would mean only one crop but a good summer could produce six crops. Looking at all of these reports, there are a lot of recommendations. It is correct to say a whole-of-government report is being looked but we are still referring back to that High Court case in the last few weeks or the last few days. I did not hear an outcome from that, so I do not know. I cannot comment on that but it is still talking about the sub-30 ha. We are of the understanding that you have to be able to show that the sub-30 ha is not hydrologically connected to the rest of the complex. Is the sub-30 ha the direction in which we are heading? It seems a spanner was thrown into the works because of that High Court case. That could be in doubt as well.

I know the Minister of State has a lesser part to play in it and I am acknowledging that. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications will be the big game player in this in terms of the planning side of it. Is there going to be collaboration on this? This report is going on and on and now it looks like we need three more bits of reports after this report. Where is the end game that we get peat to the horticulture sector instead of importing it from other countries by boat? We need to get it up and running and put the research into it for 2030 and 2035. I think everyone is in agreement with that. It is now that we need to stop the boats coming halfway across the world to resolve the issues. Will the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine work together on this? Is there going to be something within one, two or three months to say we are going to have a system here that will make sure that we will guarantee future peat? That is all we want to know.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Ultimately, it comes down to that planning issue. What we need is for extractors to engage with the process. There is a dual consent process there. It works effectively across other sectors. There is no reason it can not work here. Yes, it is onerous and yes, it is difficult

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With all due respect, we have used it in relocation bogs. We got kicked in Kildare, where the people who wanted to throw us out of the bog we were in objected to us going to the next one. I refer to the system of under 30 ha and all of the science. John Neenan from GMI was in here and he said it had brought in some but it got nowhere with it. That is what I am saying. All we are looking for is a roadmap.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I accept the frustration here but individuals are entitled to make a submission. That is the process in which we operate and that is the democratic process under which we work. It was accepted that potentially the fastest route to compliance listed those small-scale bogs. That was potentially the easiest way to become compliant. Unfortunately, due to widespread lack of engagement with the process, with us and even with Mr. Boland, we are still very much in the dark here. We need that engagement from the sector, in particular. I am getting plenty of engagement from my horticultural growers but they are not the extractors. They are not the ones that source it. They need the access to it and we need that cross-government approach and yes, it will be between those three Departments.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State and her officials. I agree with Deputy Fitzmaurice. It is hard for any sector to engage and to keep engaging because it is the same over and over again and every opening statement is nearly word for word what we got the last time. Nothing seems to change. I do not blame some of the sector at this stage for throwing their hands in the air when their businesses are on the line. There is a massive number of people employed in that sector. In terms of the actions being taken to resolve the issue and the concerns this committee has, the Minister of State admitted that a collaborative approach across the Departments is needed. I agree that this is what needed. How straightforward is that? How much further down the line are we from the last time the Minister of State was at this committee?

One of the things the Minister of State referred to the last time was this free for all extraction of peat. That kind of language is completely misrepresenting what this committee has agreed on. The sector is less than 1% of the amount of what is needed. This throwing out this free for all extraction is not painting a very good picture of the sector. Orla McManus of CMP told the committee that of its members, 45% of the spend they will have over the next seven years will be on the environment, the agri-environment and climate actions, that is, renewable energies, good water use and insulation. They are focused on what needs to be done but the problem is that the three Departments we keep trying to get to come into this committee to talk do not seem to be on the same wavelength as the people who are involved in it. It is very hard for any sector that is spending that kind of money to keep doing it when they can not say for certain that in three, six or nine months that they are still even going to be in business. The risk of them not being in business is caused by the dragging of the heels by the Departments. One of the Departments is the Minister of State's. That raises a question. If they are spending that kind of money and if they keep doing so, what is the pay off at the end of it for them? How much longer does the Minister of State think that those kinds of businesses can keep investing that kind of money when there is so much uncertainty?

I want to talk about the issue of extracting the minuscule amount of peat needed by the horticultural and mushroom sectors until there is an alternative found. I recently put a question to the Minister of State. I had to look at the response a couple of times and I would like the Minister of State to clarify it. Reference was made to short-term, medium-term and long-term responses to address the supply in horticulture. From the notes, short term had to do with the report on peat supply.

Séamus Boland's report was given to the Department and we are told it is due to be published shortly. We have it now. It is another report that will not go anywhere. I guarantee that.

On the medium-term actions, the Minister of State confirmed the report on the planning requirements for peat extraction on sub-30 ha bogs had been received by the Department and will be published shortly. Under long-term actions, the Minister of State mentioned that €1.6 million had been awarded. Representatives of these sectors are still appearing before this committee. At this stage, they could almost receive season tickets, like those available for the Aviva Stadium or Croke Park, because they are in and out of here so often trying to get answers from the committee and the Department. They are met with the same barriers every time they come in and every time they contact us. The Department may have a different approach when it is contacted and they may get answers from it but we find it hard after every session here to go back to them and tell them that something is moving.

I will put three issues to the Minister of State. First, from what she said about the measures that have been taken, none has had immediate results. Second, is it the case that there has been no interdepartmental engagement on the issue of extracting a minimum amount of peat until alternatives are found? Third, and I do not say this lightly, I think the Minister of State misrepresented the committee and the witnesses who appeared before it by referring to the recommendation about sourcing peat as a "free-for-all extraction" when it was clearly not the case. It is not personal but we say it in the committee every time we hold a meeting. It is like pulling teeth. It is like Groundhog Day. We are told the same thing in meeting after meeting. As I said, it must be frustrating for the sector because, by God, it is frustrating for us to keep hearing the same thing over and over from the Ministers.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I do not think it is fair to say nothing is happening. We are moving along a course and, as I have said from the start, it is incredibly difficult. Not all of it lies within my responsibility to change and effect change and I know the Deputy appreciates that-----

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State must realise people's employment is at risk.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Absolutely.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The longer it keeps going on and the more we receive reports on which nothing is done, the more people will lose their jobs.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I accept the importance of this. My Department took the approach to engage experts to look at this. We led on that following the Prasad report. The working group paper was published in January. It took time because we had to put people in place. The reports by the two experts have been published, albeit today. We only received them in order to publish them in the past week or so.

My Department has been active where it can be in this area. In respect of our responsibility for research, we have been highly active in putting funds towards that. The question about the tiny amount of peat that is required comes up often and I accept it is a small amount. However, no matter how small an amount it is, it must be extracted through the regulatory process that is in place. That still must be achieved and, unfortunately, it lies outside my Department's remit. That is why we have engaged across the Government to try to reach a solution. There is no ban on the extraction of peat. The regulations are in place. The consent process is in place for people to engage with and that must be done. We have helped to support through guidance and in the information in our reports on planners, and the recommendations in Mr. Boland's report refer to that. We need to look at how we support people to become compliant in order that we can access the small amount of peat that is required. Unfortunately, that is not happening on the ground, which is why we are in this situation. Certainly as regards the current cases that are still under appeal and any issues and concerns, we need to ensure we can access the peat in a legally compliant way. At the moment, we do not have enough access.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Before the Minister of State leaves, will she withdraw the statement she made about "free-for-all extraction" because it reflects badly on the sector?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The Deputy is taking that somewhat out of context. It was part of the debate in the Dáil a few weeks ago.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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When someone watching this meeting hears a Minister of State or committee member talking about "free-for-all extraction", it paints a bad picture of the sector.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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It was a reference to a comment that had been made to me. I will look at it to confirm what it was related to.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith aici.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Ms Byrne, Ms Fay and Ms Wisdom to the committee.

I think the Minister of State will feel the sense of frustration in the committee. Clearly, three Ministers and three Departments are overlapping and while I understand the reason for that, they do not operate in a silo. They are in government and the Ministers and Ministers of State have cross functions and support and co-operate with one another. What is important is that for months we had difficulty getting anyone to appear before the committee. I do not know what the background to that is.

I must express some concern, in line with what Deputy Fitzmaurice said, that it is unusual to receive correspondence on the day of a meeting. It is not right. It is disrespectful to the committee and I would like to hear why we are looking at a statement from the Minister of State today. I always like to read statements and prepare before meetings so I can bring something to the table. I am somewhat shocked by the content, so much so that I printed some other material. It is literally a cut-and-paste job. Many of the sentences in this briefing note connected with peat and other documents are dropped into the Minister of State's speech. I was reading it this morning and realised I had read it before somewhere. Whole sections are dropped back in here that were in previous documents. I know it is the same matter but I make the point and it raises the question as to why it took so long. Members like to read documents in advance. They like to prepare and ask questions. We were denied the opportunity to do so for today's meeting, which is unprecedented in all of my time as a member of the committee.

I will move on. I will focus on peat and the horticultural sector, in particular the mushroom sector. Much of our mushroom sector is located in County Monaghan and other Border counties, as well as County Wexford and other places. Peat can be brought across the Border from Northern Ireland. Many producers have said they might be better off moving north in this industry. We have a successful horticultural mushroom industry. The Minister of State will know there are three or four big players in the sector. There are many smaller players that are on contract to the bigger suppliers because they have critical mass in transport costs and other issues so it makes sense. It works well. Many small family-owned companies are involved in mushroom production and we sometimes forget that. The big players are at the front but the smaller ones are feeding into that on contract.

On the issue of peat, we clearly know we need a phased transition to alternatives to peat. I am delighted the Minister of State indicated that we are making progress in terms of Teagasc and alternatives for mushroom production. I would like to hear a little more about that. The Minister of State spoke about hope and the expectation that we will have alternatives and that is encouraging. I am delighted to hear that but it must be high quality, environmentally-friendly peat. We must deal with many factors. As previous speakers said, the committee expected a roadmap today, not more of the same talk about what might be happening.

What are we talking about? The Minister of State represents a rural constituency which is also in the heartland of peat. I fully understand that. I do not doubt her personal, political or community commitment to just transition but we have an issue and it is about rural communities, jobs, the economy, the horticultural sector and the agrifood sector that the Minister of State, her party and the Government talk about often. Members who are involved in the horticultural sector, agrifood business and mushroom sector want to know what the phased transition period is.

What are the phased transition alternatives? Where are we going in terms of an answer? We need a Minister in here once a month - it is a matter we can discuss in private in our committee another day. Every 30 days, we want a report on our table in this committee in relation to where we are going. It is not good enough to ask parliamentary questions or Commencement matters in the Seanad or having long, protracted engagement to try to get a Minister to come and talk about it. I understand that the Minister of State knows the difficulties and the challenges. Will she touch on where the phased transition is at? What good news can she bring us today? Can she bring us something new that we did not already know about how we are going to address this challenge?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I thank the Senator. I accept the lateness of the report. I was only notified last Thursday of my appearance before the committee today. To clarify, while we have had the reports for a while, we had to engage across Government to reach agreement to publish the reports; that was only agreed last week, which is why everything is a bit late. The notification was not very long for me. I accept the sense of frustration - I get it from all of the committee members - as well as the appearance that progress is not being made. We are making progress, albeit slowly. We have to tease these elements out. My Department has taken a lead by coming up with this working paper and hiring the experts. A lot of it lies outside our Department, as can be seen from the recommendations.

On where we can support research, I referred in my opening statement to our work with Teagasc - I may go to Ms Fay on that - in terms of the research going on. The mushroom sector is the most important element of this. It is hugely valuable. I know one or two mushroom producers and I know the stress and difficulties they have. However, the mushroom sector has been making good strides in trying to implement alternatives. Funding through the EU producer organisation scheme has delivered some promising results. I do not have the figures for the percentages - it is commercially sensitive so I cannot give particular details about what people are using and the percentages but-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is commercially sensitive. Is the Department carrying out research by a State agency?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The producer organisation one is different.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is commercially sensitive. Is the Minister of State unable to give any assurance on how all of that is going?

Ms Louise Byrne:

I thank the Senator. We have provided support through the producer organisation scheme to CMP, Commercial Mushroom Producers. It is carrying out that research, which is progressing well. It has moved from shelf to house trials. It is a business competing against competitors. They are making good progress. Any work on peat alternatives requires significant management. They are trialling different templates for that management. Progress is being made, but the reality is that members of that PO submitted their funding to that research, so they are part-supporting that research - it is commercially sensitive. Nevertheless, we are supportive of this work and continue to support Commercial Mushroom Producers to engage in that research. My colleague, Ms Fay, will go into more detail on the research Teagasc has been funded to do for the Beyond Peat project. She has been engaging with Mr. Michael Gaffney, the lead researcher on that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Will Ms Byrne comment on how this research is being monitored and engaged, qualitatively, in terms of research papers? As a committee, we could get out there and go to those research stations and see it first hand. We have to believe in it. We are advocates for agriculture and the agrifood sector. We are in a role as strong advocates and political advocates for agriculture and the food industry. How does the Minister of State or how do her officials in the Department engage, monitor and do interim research and feedback, and reports? It may not be, but would it be possible to have further engagement or side business in relation to this research? I like to see things in the real; it makes it real. You have a greater confidence when you can actually see something happening. I am familiar with trial stations; I worked for An Foras Taluntais in Kinsealy. I am familiar with how these things work. Will Ms Byrne share that before Ms Fay comes in?

Ms Louise Byrne:

I visited CMP with my colleagues. I saw the trials in progress in a growing tunnel. We can ask CMP if it would be willing to facilitate a visit to the trials. There are other players also involved in trials. An invitation has been extended to go and visit that research. I have not gone out just yet but my colleagues, as part of their work in verifying compliance under PO regulations, are required to examine the actions under the operational programme, including the research actions. We have reports on that. I have also asked the principals to provide us with information on the trials. I am happy to follow up and seek to arrange for the committee to see the trials in action. The industry has committed to transitioning to peat-free alternatives. They are fully committed. This is the transitionary period. It is in their interest to ensure that any of these trials work and are sustainable and that it is not just a blip that the yield is fine for one flush and not for the next. They are fully committed to ensuring that the outcomes from these trials are successful.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I am familiar with compliance PO requirements. Will Ms Byrne confirm where these trials are taking place?

Ms Louise Byrne:

The trials are taking place at one of the PO members' premises.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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What is the location?

Ms Louise Byrne:

I visited one in County Monaghan. There are other trials taking place; I do not know the full details as to the exact location so I cannot say.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is the Department in a position to furnish the initial results? When will the Department be in a position to furnish the initial results of some of those trials?

Ms Louise Byrne:

I will ask the principals involved if they will provide information to the committee.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Ms Byrne for her engagement.

Ms Deirdre Fay:

I thank the Senator. The Beyond Peat project started on 1 February this year. It is at the early, discovery stage of the research. As the Minister of State said, the project is co-ordinated by the Teagasc horticultural development department. The Department is in close contact with Teagasc about the project. A stakeholder engagement meeting is taking place tomorrow, which Teagasc has organised. It is a growth media stakeholder meeting for the Beyond Peat project.

On the Senator's comment about expectations of a roadmap for the sector, the Food Vision Group 2030 recognised the value of the Irish horticulture sector as the fourth largest agriculture sector in Ireland and called for a strategy to set out a roadmap for the industry up to 2030 focusing on economic, environmental and social sustainability. As a first step in the development of that strategy, the KPMG report on opportunities for the Irish horticulture sector was published in July this year, providing an overview of the current context for the horticulture industry and the state of play in each of the seven sectors including field crops, protected crops, soft fruit, top fruit, amenity, potatoes, and mushrooms.

It identified a number of actions that could help address cross-cutting factors affecting the sector. Access to peat and peat replacement were one of the factors addressed. Recently we had a very productive meeting of the horticulture industry forum on 26 October, which was co-chaired by Minister of State, Senator Hackett, and the forum chair, Mr. Brian O'Reilly, where challenges facing the sector were discussed, including challenges around access to peat and alternatives to peat-based growing media. A public consultation on the actions identified in the report is now under way via an online survey which closes on 30 November, and the online survey will enable a broader consultation process and allow participants to assess and prioritise the cross-cutting factors and the actions according to their perspectives. Submissions received will feed into and inform a strategic roadmap to develop a more profitable, value-added sector.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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My final question is to the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, on how we can move on from here in a positive light. I understand where she is coming from. In many ways she has a unique role, in that she is ultimately responsible for the horticulture sector and she also has a lot of knowledge about it, based on her constituency. How can we improve and how can she assure committee members of collective Government engagement with this committee and on this particular subject? We have to move faster. We talk about collaborative forums, engagement, participation and support. We are advocates but we also have contacts ourselves. I take on board what she said about her disappointment with the engagement from some sectors in this frame. I would like to hear how the Ministers in government responsible for this area can work better with us, communicate better with us, and have regular bulletins or methods of communication to map out the progress she firmly believes is happening, slowly as she said, which I accept. We need to do it faster and we need to communicate better about how we are making that progress.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I thank the Senator and appreciate his comments and his acknowledgement of the difficulty within this in the sector. We commissioned the KPMG report and it highlighted concerns but also the opportunity, and we have to look for the opportunity here. We are embarking on writing a strategy for the horticulture sector and when I met the horticulture industry forum on 26 October, it was a very positive meeting. It did not get bogged down in many of the negatives. The sector wants to have a positive outlook and to embrace any opportunity that is there. While the peat issue is very much in the here and now for so many in the sector, we are making our way through this and are trying to implement recommendations. Let us work through the recommendations from Mr. Boland's report and see how we can implement them. Ultimately we need that engagement and we need the extractors to engage with the regulatory process. Within the confines of my Department, we are doing everything we can to try to facilitate that.

Senator Boyhan is right that we need to have that further engagement with the Department with responsibility for planning and the Department with responsibility for the environment. We need to come to an agreed approach here. As Ms Byrne said, the industry has committed to moving away from peat but we are in this moment where we have to try to facilitate that as quickly as possible.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If those in the sector are watching today, they will not be full of confidence about what is going on. In fact, they will be disturbed when they hear what is being proposed and what this report has finalised. Like other speakers here and other members, I am annoyed that the report was published at 11 a.m. and that we were expected at a meeting today and to be able to ask serious questions. We may have to bring the Minister of State back to the committee once we get an opportunity to read the report. We are busy too and have a lot of other committees to attend and other obligations. Like other speakers, I do not like going to a meeting unless I know I have something to contribute.

From the beginning this whole debacle has been very upsetting to me. I have been very vocal on it. on the basis that there is talk about alternatives. Why did the Minister of State not wait until she had the alternatives rather than put this sector under pressure? This reminds me of the briquettes situation. People are paying almost €10 for a bale of briquettes, which comes from Germany and other countries. The State owns 90% of the bogs in this country but this sector is really being put out by what has happened with the Department. I expected that we would have a roadmap, outlining what was going to happen in the future, but I did not hear about that roadmap. In fact, all I heard from the Minister of State and the Department was about closure - closing off the maps, closing off the roads and closing the businesses and getting people out. These people have been in this business for a long time and have made a major contribution to society. These people are not asking the State for anything. What they want is to be able to continue to do their business. What has happened is that the Department is talking about alternatives but it is trying to put as many of these people out of business as possible. I have to say that I am aggravated by this. People talk about alternatives. We are bringing in peat from other parts of Europe. It is like the sky. The Green Party talks about the environment. The sky covers Russia, China and every other big nation in the world. We are trying to get Ireland to solve the world's problems. Of course we have to play our part in climate change and so on. However, the trouble with this country is that we always have to go ten steps further than everybody else. We should have waited until we had the alternatives in place and to see if people would be left in business. When we had the alternatives, then we could have brought in what we had to bring in and try to work with people to get them to change to other alternatives.

This business and the people involved in the sector are really angry and annoyed. I did not see any roadmap today. I am disappointed there is not a roadmap and people watching from the sector will be disappointed. They will ask about what is happening with their business and what the Government wants them to do. I do not want to make a personal attack on anybody but I am not full of confidence today listening to what those who spoke said in regard to this sector. I mean no disrespect to any of them as they are all fine, qualified people but it is fine for them. We will get our salaries at the end of this month but these people have to work and produce and ensure they keep their businesses. They employ people and have a responsibility to them. They have a responsibility to their businesses for the coming year to see what will happen. I am disappointed by what is happening today but I will not say anything further.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Ring. Nobody is closing anything down. The Government is not closing anything down in the horticulture sector-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If we do not let them take up the peat, we will close them down.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We need to be clear. There is no ban on peat extraction and nothing is being stopped. Nothing has changed in relation to that. People must be compliant as they always must be. The extractors have to become compliant. That has always been the case. Nothing has changed in relation to the regulations or laws. That is still the case. It is still possible to extract peat but it must be done legally. That is only fair to say and everyone should accept that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is fine to say that but the way people were doing it is being changed.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We have not changed it. The fact is that court cases found that people were not compliant-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Court cases is all the Green Party-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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It is not the Green Party-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has this country held up with its bloody court cases-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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This is not about the Green Party; this is about law. It is about EU law-----

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Change the law.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Change EU law?

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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No, change Irish law. It is that simple.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Doherty will have a chance to speak. We will go back to the Minister of State.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I apologise Chair.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The law is as it is and we should encourage everyone to comply with the law. Nobody should encourage anyone to not comply with the law. The law is there and people can become compliant if they engage. That is what we are always asking, that is, that they engage with the process. We want to help them engage with the process. The Government wants to help people to engage with the process. The Government cannot extract peat itself, so we need people to do that.

Those in the sector will watch this. They are aware of the situation. I met many of the growers at the end of last month and we had a very positive engagement. They want to be positive about this. The whole debate did not get caught up on peat supply and from what we understand there is no indication that there is a cliff edge in terms of peat supply at the moment. We are not getting those indications from the sector. I am not saying that will continue to be the case but there is currently no crisis of supply.

From what we understand, there is no cliff edge in terms of peat supply at the moment. We are not getting those indications from the sector. I am not saying that will continue to be the case but currently there is no crisis of supply in peat in the horticultural sector in Ireland. Nevertheless-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about in the future?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The future is alternatives and the sector appreciates that. The Deputy can shake his head all he likes but the sector appreciates that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Department is full of alternatives, that is the problem.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We are in this transitional phase. My Department is doing everything it can within its remit to address what we can do. We have done that really well and in fact have probably gone beyond our remit in terms of the working paper and recruiting experts to help in this field.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know how the Minister of State can say there is not a cliff edge because we do not know. The report we got this morning at 11 a.m. could not quantify what peat is there. I do not know how we can say there is not a cliff edge there because the industry indicated there is and the report said they did not know. I do not know how the Minister of State can estimate what peat stocks are there.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I am basing that on the feedback directly from the sector. They are not coming to us saying there will be a drop. They have existing stocks even if we may not know what the existing stocks are. They are relying on existing stocks and, certainly, importation.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We had representatives in about two weeks ago and they clearly said they were just virtually out of supply. That is what they said then.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I thank colleagues for allowing me to come in today to speak on an industry that it very important to me in north County Dublin. I thank the Minister of State for attending today because she is not the only person responsible for fixing this but she sits at the Cabinet table with officials from the other two Departments who are responsible. Therefore collectively, the three Departments have an obligation to the Minister of State who covers horticulture and is the champion of this industry, to provide a solution. What we are witnessing is a master class in procrastination. We are going around in circles for the past number of years and we have absolutely no productive solutions to filling - what the Minister of State has just called - the interim period before we get beyond peat. That is the problem and the reason we are sitting here talking so frustratingly. We are going around in circles and I think that is actually the plan of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, with responsibility for local government and planning; the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications; and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We will go around in circles for so long but what we are actually doing is killing the single most climate-friendly industry in this country by inaction on our watch. The people who are responsible for the demise of this industry are those in government and that includes the Minister of State and me.

I am really frustrated not least by her statements today that the report we only got this morning cites the lack of engagement as the reason we cannot have proper recommendations in this industry. I bring the Minister of State back to the first working group report which had 12 months of engagement. People gave up their time, month in, month out, to come up with three recommendations that would fix this industry. What did we do? We ignored it and decided we did not like the results of that one so we set up another report. We then commissioned KPMG and it gave us a report. What did we do with those recommendations? We ignored those as well. Then we got Grant Thornton in and ignored its recommendations. Now we have Mr. Séamus Boland's report and because the industry was posed a disingenuous question and asked to tell us what they had in their back sheds, keeping the businesses alive, we are now going to say it will not engage with us therefore we need to put a call out that they work together with us. As if them telling us what they have in their back shed will prompt us to recognise the single recommendation that will fix this problem is to draft primary legislation to make the dual consent legislation a single consent mechanism which will then allow people to engage with what the Minister of State has called on numerous occasions today, a complex legal process. It is so complex nobody can get through it.

The Minister of State is the champion of this industry and its single biggest raw material is not available. My only question to her today is to inquire if she has asked the other two Ministers, who are responsible for giving us our cross-Government approach to this problem, to draft primary legislation to bring forward single consent to allow a small amount of peat be harvested locally in Ireland to keep this industry alive. I represent people in organisations in north County Dublin such as Tully's nurseries, Dockrell's farm, and Sunglow nurseries who are going to go out of business if we do not give them a replacement to what the Minister of State calls alternatives, which are not going to come for years. Has the Minister of State asked both of her colleagues who sit at the Cabinet table with her, to draft single consent legislation to allow local providers of peat in this country to extract for local use for our horticultural industry?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The Senator has highlighted this collective approach across Government and with the relevant Ministers and I agree that we need it. Nobody wants to go around in circles and I accept she has that opinion of the situation but it is an unfair categorisation because we have moved on. It is unfair to say we have ignored recommendations. The principal remit of the very first Prasad working group was to examine alternatives to the use of peat in the horticultural sector. This working group broadened the discussions beyond that and went outside the scope of what it was established to do which is what we are talking about again today. My Department certainly took an active role in coming together with other experts as I highlighted in my opening statement. We have taken a very active role to try to come up with some solutions here.

I have visited many of those nurseries such as Tully's. Some are doing incredible work in terms of research. Representative at Tully's nurseries were able to show me their 35% peat-free mix. They are doing that almost off their own back as they see that is where the future is and they are doing it very successfully. They are trialing other mixes such as 50% peat-free and so forth and are on that path as are many growers. They know where the future is and where they have to get to, and we have to be able to support them. My role, as the Minister of State responsible for horticulture, is to support them on that path. We need a bigger conversation about how we help and facilitate extractors to become compliant because that is the bottom line here. They are not compliant with the law and that is why they are unable to access peat legally. Changing the law will always be subject to challenge. I am aware the Senator brought forward a Bill in the Seanad. Just flicking a switch and changing the law is not going to solve this problem; it really is not. That is far too simplistic and will be challenged.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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To respond, I assume from the answer the Senator has given that she has not asked or had discussions with her own colleagues about drafting primary legislation to make the consent a single process as opposed to a dual process. Changing the law might have challenges but it certainly would be an action to show the industry we are trying to do something to alleviate the problems it has. The Minister of State referred to "beyond peat", the "path to the future", and to alternatives and also to the fact that I said it was not fair to say that the recommendations of the Prasad report were not implemented. She did not do Nos.1 to 6 of the recommendations and we waited until No. 7 which was the easy one and was given a grant to investigate what the future might look like for peat alternatives. Recommendation No. 3 of the Prasad report states:

In order to facilitate peat producers, primary legislation should be drafted by the relevant Government Departments in order to move from the current dual consent system [...] to a single consent system.

That is the answer to all of the problems we have heard for the past two years from this industry. We are no further on in fixing the problem because politically and ideologically we have a problem with Government providing a proper legal framework to allow people to extract peat. It is the God's honest truth and the Minister of State knows it, that we would rather let people say we want them to comply with the law which cannot be complied with. The dual consent process is unworkable and will never produce any peat for the horticultural industry in this country. I say it again as my closing remarks; we are killing off the most climate-friendly industry in this country slowly and it is happening on our watch.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Just to say there is a legal process in place. Peat extraction has not been banned. There is no need to change the legislation if people-----

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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By all accounts it has. It cannot be extracted and the Minister of State knows that.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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It might as well be banned.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Most of the extractors have not engaged with the process.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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You cannot go through the process - it does not work-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is like asking to climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The process is not working. The Minister of State is not listening. Members of the industry are telling us they cannot get licences.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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They are not engaging with it.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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They have engaged and it has been taken to An Bord Pleanála. They cannot get licences through the system. The Minister of State is presiding over an industry that is going to go out of business because we are failing to get licences out for horticulture.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I understand the difficulties and I do not want to wash my hands of this.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point in the Minister of State coming in here and telling us things that are not correct.

I am not the Minister of State with responsibility for planning.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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No stakeholder can get a licence.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Listen. We are continuing to engage. We are fully aware-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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How many licences have been issued over the past 12 months for people to cut peat in the country?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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You will have to ask the Minister with responsibility for housing and planning.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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None.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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None and we all know it. That is the problem.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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There are nine licences so nine people have become compliant.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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There is none I said.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Sorry.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is none.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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You should know that.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I am not responsible for peat extraction.

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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No but you are responsible for this industry.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I am not responsible for turf harvests going-----

Regina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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You are responsible for the single raw product that is needed for this industry.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I am more guilty than anyone for interrupting.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In the first instance I thank the Minister of State and her officials for being here. Again it needs to be noted, and her previous response also indicates, that there are three Departments with responsibility for this area or that are part of the solution. Two of them refuse to engage with the committee on this issue. Essentially this means they are refusing to engage with the Oireachtas on this issue. It is this committee that has taken the lead on this matter. That is utterly scandalous on the part of the Ministers concerned and on the part of their senior advisers. The final answer of the Minister of State to a question that was put was that she is not responsible for the planning aspect of the solution to this issue. Will she outline what deliberations, conversations and engagements she had with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage on this matter?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We are continually engaging on these issues. We had to engage in order to agreed to publish the reports. I accept they have arrived late in the day for the committee. We can absolutely spend time on them afterwards. My colleagues in the relevant Departments in Government are fully aware-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am speaking specifically about the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in the first instance. Has the Minister of State met the senior Minister at that Department on this issue?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I speak to the senior Minister on this issue.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When was the most recent time?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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There are conversations. Our officials meet from time to time also I am sure.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the engagement of the Minister of State, has there been any-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We discussed it at the Cabinet sub-committee recently. This came up. It was one of the agenda items. I do not know whether I can say that but it was and we discussed it then. That was on this specific issue. That was two weeks' ago.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At any stage has the Minister of State's Department suggested to that Department that perhaps it should engage with the committee on this matter?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We acknowledged that there is-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister of State suggested to the Minister that perhaps it would be useful-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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It is not for me to speak for the agriculture committee.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is coming in here and taking the flak for something that by her own admission crosses three Departments. She is being asked questions on some areas on which she cannot provide the answers. I have to say if it were me, and most people would probably be the same, I would tell the person who does have the answers to come here and answer the questions.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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It is a matter for the Minister with responsibility for planning, if that Minister is invited. People seem to imply the Minister has been invited many times. It is a matter for that Minister. I accepted the invitation. I accept that-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What engagement has the Minister of State had on this issue with Deputy Malcolm Noonan, Minister of State in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I do not think it is responsibility of Deputy Noonan. I think it is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, with regard to planning. Deputy Noonan has another responsibility for other cutaway bogs. We engage quite frequently and conversationally on this. My officials engage with other officials on this. As I said, we engaged most recently on agreement to publish these reports.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking about ministerial level. Has the Minister of State met with either Minister of State, Deputy Burke or Deputy Noonan, in respect of this matter?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I am sure I have. I do not have any dates in mind. As I said, we engaged until last week on deciding to publish these two reports. We discussed this issue specifically at the Cabinet sub-committee on climate action with all of the relevant Ministers.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister of State met the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications on this issue?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I speak with all the Ministers about this-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Please do not be facetious. I am asking-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Most recently the climate action sub-committee spoke about this.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Allow me to finish please. I am trying to get a sense as to the interdepartmental workings on this issue. I made a charge at the previous meeting. What has happened over recent months is that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications have directed this committee, and individual members through responses to parliamentary questions, to the Minister of State's Department for discussion. Yet when the Minister of State's Department comes before the committee and is asked specific questions, the Minister of State directs us back to the other Departments. I want to get a sense of what is at play at ministerial level. Is there an agreement between Ministers that if any questions are asked on the extraction of horticultural peat the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine will respond to them? Has that been agreed at ministerial level?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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No it has not. All Ministers have their own responsibility on this. As I said, it was an agenda item at the most recent climate action sub-committee which was ten days ago or last week. I do not have the date to hand.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, is this a matter that is entirely under the remit of the Minister of State or does the senior Minister engage in any of the meetings that happen at ministerial level on these matters?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We have meetings from time to time with the Minister present. We end up speaking beyond our remits because we see the impacts of this on the sectors for which we are responsible. This is why we commissioned the paper. It is why we commissioned the independent experts. They have brought together some recommendations that lie outside our remit as a Department. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has gone above and beyond. We do need engagement and collaboration across Government on this. All of the Ministers accept this and the Government accepts this.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To remind the Minister of State, the question I asked was to elaborate on what interaction the senior Minister, Deputy McConalogue has with her on this issue.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We meet. It comes up on agendas.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You meet and discuss this.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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He was at the Cabinet sub-committee with the other Ministers when we discussed this issue.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does he approve of the approach that the Minister has taken up to this point?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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What approach is that?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The approach the Minister of State outlined in her opening statement today.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I outlined the situation. I outlined the work we have done. I outlined the recommendations from the two published reports. Yes, he does.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the background to this, on several occasions the committee has heard evidence. I have engaged with the mushroom sector in particular. Its representatives have told the committee no alternatives are available at this point in time other than horticultural peat for their products. Does the Minister of State accept this evidence?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I accept that at this point in time. Progress is being made. We have highlighted this. Ms Byrne went into some detail on the work that is being done on alternatives. The feedback from this is that it is positive. They do see a future.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State does not need to elaborate. The answer is that at this stage the Minister of State accepts this point. Does the Minister of State accept that in order to access horticultural peat some stakeholders will be required to import peat and are importing peat.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does she find this an acceptable situation?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Again it comes back to the fact that engagement with the regulatory process here in Ireland can make it possible to extract. There is no banning of peat extraction in Ireland. It is difficult and I accept that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Let us consider every application that has been made. Let us get a few things straight. Not one application from the horticultural sector was exempted in Ireland. That is it. People in the horticultural sector-----

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Exempted is different from not being in compliance.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Hold on.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Exempted is a different thing.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Hold on. I am speaking about those with less than 30 ha.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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They are not exempt.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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They were never exempted. We were exempted with regard to turf because the screening was done. Under the legislation all of those with fewer than 30 ha who sought an exemption were told to go to planning. That is the end of story. There are no ifs or buts about it. The Minister of State should not try to cover it up. They are the facts of what is on the table. The same tractors, peat and machinery have to be used in Estonia as in Ireland. They will put out the emissions.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I would say the peat is of inferior quality.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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So we are happy to put it on a lorry, bring it to a boat, put it on a boat, bring it across the world, and bring it to Ireland. The Green Party is happy to look at that when Paddy in Rochfortbridge, down the road from the Minister of State's constituency, cannot take out a bit of peat. Get real.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I accept there is an added cost for producers to import peat. If supply demands cannot be met by the extractors in Ireland, they have to look to alternative sources.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Why can it not be met? I thought we are in the one Europe.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We are going around in circles in this debate.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The biggest problem is that they are being judicially reviewed. There is a simply way that the Government can do it.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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But that is the process and how we operate. That is our democratic right.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is a simple way if the Government faces up to it. A question on this was asked in the Dáil the night I brought it up. There was whispering going on by a Minister, from the Minister of State's party, who said that it was never going to happen. The Government is bringing every one of us around in circles and vexing us, and we are as well to tell people straight out.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State accepts that importation is now happening. If it is possible to extract peat in Ireland, why is that happening? Why would a person go to the bother?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Because the supply is not coming from the domestic sources.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why is that?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Because they need to be legally compliant and engage with the regulatory process. When they are legally compliant, there will be access.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State raised the exportation of peat from the State. In July, she said that we are still net exporters and that "... maybe there is some engagement there that we should be doing with those exporters asking them to maybe not export and to keep it in this country to secure the horticultural sector here". How many of those engagements has the Minister of State had since July?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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To clarify in terms of the exportation of peat, the figures we get from the CSO do not differentiate, which I said in response to a question put in the Dáil recently. Peat in the export sense could be horticultural, a blend, briquettes or any form of peat.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the impression she gave during oral debates.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Excuse me. I did clarify that it was not broken down and that it was an overall figure. In terms of volume, amount, and value, we do export more peat than we import, however-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious we are under time pressures. In July, the Minister of State said, "... there is some engagement there that we should be doing with those exporters asking them to maybe not export and to keep it in this country to secure the horticultural sector here". My question is very specific. How many of those engagements has she had in the five months since then?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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One of the reasons we took on Seamus Boland as an independent was to examine the stocks and to see where they were. The Deputy looks puzzled.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I look puzzled because I asked the Minister of State how many engagements she had.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Personally, I have not engaged.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She has not had any. That is the answer.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The Deputy can nod his head all he likes. The engagements we had were through an independent expert. We recruited Seamus Boland to do that. That was the initial remit of his recruitment, however, through the lack of engagement he got from the sector, we are still in the dark in terms of who has what.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The truth is the Minister of State raised the issue of exportation knowing that it is not horticultural peat that is being exported.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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Some of it is.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much?

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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I do not have the breakdown because the CSO figures do not differentiate, but some of it is.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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May I suggest that the Minister of State does not make statements in the Oireachtas that she cannot back up with actual facts and figures? If she states, in the context of a debate on horticultural peat, that we are a net exporter, it gives a particular impression whether it was intentional or not; people are open to their own views - that we are exporting tonnes, and perhaps hundreds of tonnes, of horticultural peat while Oireachtas Members are complaining on behalf of companies in their constituency that such peat is not available here, and that is not the case.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call on Senator Paul Daly because we have to finish by 3 p.m.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will be very brief, because most of what I was going to say was said while I was Acting Chair. Our agenda is the impact of peat shortages on the horticultural industry. For the purpose of conversation, let us forget about extraction for a minute. Senator Hackett is the Minister of State with responsibility for horticulture, and today's brief is about the impact of peat shortages on the horticultural industry. We had a major crisis in the mushroom industry and we lost several mushroom producers on the back of Brexit. Due to those shenanigans, they are now suffering across the water because of the value of sterling again. Those who have survived say the straw that will break the camel's back is the additional costs that we are imposing on them through the sourcing of peat, which is coming from eastern Europe on diesel-guzzling tankers, being offloaded at Irish ports and transported, thereafter, by more diesel-guzzling lorries. It is a total contradiction of our environmental outlook and the possibly good intentions of the serial objectors to us extracting our own peat. It has a much higher carbon footprint when it gets to them now than if we were extracting from our bogs. That is a contradiction by the Government, by the Green Party - without getting political about it - and by the people who are to blame, who have been objecting and who have caused all this hassle. The proposal on legislation for single consent has been put to the Minister of State on several occasions. That would get the bogs under 30 ha back in action, but it needs somebody to drive it on.

I respect the fact the Minister of State has come to the Chamber today because many of her colleagues have refused the invitation. It affects not only the mushroom industry. There are many other people struggling in the horticultural industry who are dependent on natural resources. One of the few natural resources they have is peat as a growing medium. They need heat and are under pressure because of electricity costs and other things. The one problem we can solve here and now, that is not being caused by Mr. Putin or a war, is by allowing them access to peat.

The Minister of State has quite rightly said it needs a collaborative approach. As the Minister with responsibility for horticulture, an industry that is going to go under and is losing and suffering the most, she should be driving that collaboration. She should be insisting and demanding her colleagues assist her in introducing that legislation. It should happen sooner rather than later. There is a very narrow window for peat harvesting. We are in the middle of November. The harvesting season begins in March and depends on what sort of a summer we get. If nothing is done before March, April or May, we will miss another season. We will be back here next winter discussing this again. Peat is not harvested from September to March or April. It is narrow window even if we had a solution. The Minister of State needs to be banging on her colleagues' doors. She needs to drive this because it is her industry. The industry she is ultimately responsible for is losing out on her and, indeed, our watch.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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To use such language as the sector "is going to go under" is unfair. It is not going to go under.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Some people already have.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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The sector will not go under. I accept there are associated costs with peat if people are having to import peat. The sector is under pressure not just because of peat. As the Senator mentioned, there are issues with labour and energy costs. My Department addressed the added pressures in the sector with its horticultural exceptional payment scheme this year, which was a €2.8 million fund introduced to alleviate increased input costs, including those associated with peat. The sector engaged with that fund and expressed gratitude for it.

It has helped them, but it is not fair to say that the sector will go under. We are here to support it. We are working hard, not only within my own Department. I am engaging with my ministerial colleagues on this. It is something that we absolutely must get right.

To reiterate, there is no ban on peat extraction in here.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We all know that.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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We need that engagement and that engagement has not been forthcoming.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Dual consent is the problem. That is what we are asking to be changed. That is the solution to the problem. Every speaker previous to me has said that today. Is there the appetite or willingness within Cabinet to drive on single consent legislation?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. As I said at the outset of the meeting, we are grateful to the Minister of State for coming in here today. She can see there is huge frustration here.

The Minister of State might say that the industry will not go under. There are complicating factors out there. There is virtually a labour shortage in the horticultural industry. Energy costs are putting huge pressure on the mushroom side. The problems in the UK economy to which we export the vast majority of our mushrooms are creating complicating factors.

It was clear to us here on the last occasion that the peat that they are using at present and have to import is of inferior quality and it is a cost that the industry will not be able to bear. As I say, there are other factors that are putting the industry under pressure.

What is needed of our bogs to supply the horticultural industry is 0.1%. We all fully accept that if we get an alternative - we are striving to get an economic alternative - we all want to cease harvesting peat. Until we have that alternative, I would urge the Minister of State to go back to the senior Ministers and get a resolution to this because what is there at present is not working. There has been no licence issued. Concern for the industry is causing us to get contrary. All we want is to see some of those sub-30 ha bogs get a licence so that they can harvest the peat for the horticultural industry until we get an alternative, whether in three, five or seven years' time. We only want to support this industry, which is a native industry and, really, a circular economy because the peat ends up going back into the soil.

As a committee, we will make no apologies for focusing on it and keeping the pressure on. That is our job and we will continue to do it.

We will invite Mr. Boland to explain his report and why he states there was lack of engagement. There are some serious statements made in the report. We, as a committee, will be obliged to bring Mr. Boland in here and go through the report with him.

I sincerely thank the Minister of State for coming in. I apologise if a few of us got hot under the collar but it is purely out of concern for the industry.

In a quarter of an hour's time, the select committee will review the 2022 Supplementary Estimate - Vote 30 (Agriculture, Food and the Marine) - with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue. As there is no further business, the meeting now stands suspended.