Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I have received apologies from Deputy Cowen and Senator Ó Donnghaile. I welcome H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko, Ukrainian Ambassador to Ireland, who is present with us in the Visitors Gallery. She is very welcome to the committee. I ask that all those present in the committee room exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I welcome our guests from Ukraine. We are meeting this afternoon with the committee on foreign affairs and interparliamentary co-operation of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. I am very pleased this meeting has been arranged via Microsoft Teams in order for us, the members of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence of the Houses of the Oireachtas in Ireland, to receive an update on the current situation in Ukraine. It gives me great pleasure to welcome the chair of the committee, Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko, along with his colleagues. We can have introductions from Mr. Merezhko's side, insofar as they are appropriate and relevant, once we start.

I welcome Deputy Brady. As we have not yet fully resumed our in-person meetings, there may be some of our members who are attending from their offices. If so, I will introduce them in accordance with their wish and desire to speak.

Everybody is welcome.

The format of our meeting is in the usual manner. We will hear our guests’ opening statement, followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee. I trust that members will be concise in their questioning.

I remind both witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that we should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them in any way identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. For witnesses attending in a remote form outside of Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present in the room does. I wish also to remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located within the Leinster House complex.

With that, I now call on Mr. Merezhko to make his opening remarks. I thank him and his colleagues for taking time to visit us and attend our meeting this afternoon.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

I thank the Chair and our dear friends for giving me this unique opportunity to talk to them, because communication with them is extremely important for Ukraine. To my colleagues and me, Ireland is our reliable friend. It is a big privilege and pleasure to talk to and address the committee.

I will try to describe the current situation. As the committee can perhaps see, we have a blackout right now in Kyiv. It became a problem and we have to use candles. Unfortunately, we do not have power in the building and street where I live, which is the central part of Kyiv.

The humanitarian situation is very difficult because, starting on 10 October, Russia regularly bombed Kyiv. The targets of the Russian army are civilian objects and infrastructure. Russia’s goal is to destroy our infrastructure completely and cause a humanitarian crisis in Kyiv. We have even started to discuss seriously the issue of evacuating a city with a population of 3 million, which might be a big problem. The very fact we are discussing this issue is very telling and illustrates-----

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

-----we have a very difficult winter. We will have to go through a winter that might be one of the most difficult winters in our history. However, we survive and we need to win.

As for the situation on the front, we can see that our army continues to liberate new territories. Only recently, we liberated several new settlements. The Russian army, despite its huge number and having enough weaponry, is not well motivated; it is demoralised. The Ukrainian army is well motivated. However, of course, we are aware of the fact we are defending ourselves from a superpower that has tremendous manpower, human resources and weaponry. It might not be contemporary weaponry, but still it is effective.

Additionally, the situation became worse because, in fact, Iran joined the aggression of Russia. Iran provided Russia with drones, so-called Shaheds. Russia is using these drones to destroy our infrastructure. One can see now that we are defending ourselves not only from one country, Russia, but we are defending ourselves from the invasion of aggression of three countries – Russia, Belarus, which allows Russia to use its territory for invasion, and Iran.

Additionally, there are big countries that support Russia financially and economically by buying Russian oil and gas. Before we asked our friends in Europe to stop buying Russian gas and oil because it means financing the Russian war machine. Europe listened to our request and stopped buying or limited buying Russian oil and gas. Unfortunately, other countries, such as India and China, are buying more and more Russian oil and gas. That is why it is important for us to introduce secondary sanctions against those countries that help Russia to circumvent western sanctions. We need to reach a new level of sanction policy.

I would like to express my gratitude to Ireland. When I think about Ireland, I recall what President Kennedy said in 1963 when he spoke to Irish Parliament. He said that Ireland is a neutral country, but it is not neutral when it comes to the battle and struggle between tyranny and freedom. It is very true now for the position of Ireland. We are grateful for all the support and help Ireland provides to Ukraine, such as economic help and humanitarian aid. We are also grateful for its position. The Senate of Ireland has recognised Russian actions and crimes against Ukraine as genocide of the Ukrainian nation. It was a very important decision and we are truly grateful to Ireland.

We would like to ask Ireland to recognise Holodomor, the great famine in Ukraine, as a genocide. November of this year is the 90th anniversary of Holodomor. It happened 90 years ago. It would very symbolic because Russia is continuing this, so to speak, tradition of genocide against Ukraine. We have continuity between the Holodomor genocide and contemporary genocide of the Ukrainian population.

I also ask the Irish Parliament to recognise Russia as a terrorist state or a terrorist regime. As members know, recently the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe adopted a resolution in which it recognised Russia as a terrorist regime. That means that each member of the Council of Europe can do the same and recognise Russia as such. It is important in terms of isolating Russia politically and economically.

Now, we are thinking about what can be done to stop Russian aggression. The reason we want to do it is to defeat Russia, because we have no options. Any ceasefire would mean Russia will use this as an opportunity to regroup forces to modernise its army and to continue its invasion of Ukraine. Putin and Russia want to erase us from the political map of the world.

Second, recently articles regarding negotiations have appeared in western press. However, the truth is it makes no sense to negotiate with Russia. The first reason is obvious and that is because it is a terrorist regime. There is no sense to hold any negotiations with terrorists. The second reason is Russia is not reliable - especially President Putin. Putin is a pathological liar. He has been lying all of the time. We have been having these negotiations with Russia for eight years within the framework of the so-called Minsk process. I was personally involved in this and I know what it is like to negotiate with Russia. It is absolutely hopeless. It is easier to negotiate with a wall than with Russian representatives.

For this reason, it is of no use. Our President has expressed our position very clearly. He said that serious negotiations can start only when Russia does five things. These include withdrawing all its troops from the whole territory of Ukraine, including Crimea. All criminals must be punished and Russia must be punished economically for all the damage done to our economy. These are among the necessary prerequisites before we can even raise negotiations. There is also no point in negotiating with Putin. He has proved many times that he is incapable of any serious negotiations. He only uses it for propagandistic goals. He is wholly unreliable as a partner.

It will be easier for me to answer the committee’s questions. Again, let me wholeheartedly thank Ireland for all of its help and support. I am also thankful for Ireland's support in our bid to become a member of the European Union. That is important for us. It is a security matter and will give us, if not security guarantees, perhaps political guarantees for our security.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Merezhko. I am sure members will have many questions arising from the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, which is the consequence of the illegal and unacceptable invasion by Russia in February this year.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Merezhko is very welcome. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak to him and his colleagues. I am also delighted that we are by the Ukrainian ambassador to Ireland as part of our ongoing engagement and commitment to standing with the people of Ukraine on everything the country asks and its right to territorial integrity. I do not think I need to restate my position. I am very clear about what needs to happen with regard to Russia. There must be a complete withdrawal of its troops and the territorial integrity of the Ukraine must be protected.

Mr. Merezhko is sitting in the darkness with a candle beside him. We have seen Russia's onslaught on critical infrastructure, including electricity generation. Some of the most recent reports state that about 30% of Ukraine's electricity infrastructure has been destroyed. Will Mr. Merezhko update us on that?

With regard to specific requests, the EU has given Ukraine about 500 generators. That is completely insufficient, particularly in the context of the needs that were just outlined and the harsh winter that lies before the Ukrainian people. What are the requirements and what impacts are the attacks on the country's critical infrastructure having?

I note that €9 billion has been set aside by the EU for reconstruction. It is very early to carry out a full assessment for how much the total rebuilding of Ukraine will cost after the conflict. Perhaps Mr. Merezhko can give some insight into what that assessment might be.

In recent weeks, Russia has made threats to use nuclear weapons, which would bring us to a place that no one expected us to be in this century, namely, not only an illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia but also threats of nuclear attack. What is the current situation around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear reactor. There has been considerable focus on the continued attacks on the reactor. I know the plant has been off-grid a number of times. Will Mr. Merezhko give us a damage assessment and an insight into what is happening there? More important, what needs to happen to ensure that the nuclear threat, whether an attack on the reactor or the use of nuclear weapons, is not realised?

Where a country is in breach of international law, the perpetrators must be held to account for their crimes. That is very much the case with Ukraine. The aggressor here, Russia, must be held to account for its crimes. I note the work that has been undertaken by the International Criminal Court, ICC, and I welcome the proactive position taken by the Irish Government, including a commitment of €3 million. Some of Mr Merezhko’s colleagues were before the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs recently. The chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's committee on EU affairs, Ms Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, attended and I asked her about those investigations.

I understand the latest figures show that, as of September, around 34,000 investigations into war crimes were active. Unfortunately, that figure will have grown since then. I ask Mr. Merezhko to give us the current figure on the number of investigations being carried out. I asked his colleague what assistance may be or is required to help with those investigations. Given that so many need to be carried out, it is critical that all the evidence is collected as quickly as possible to ensure that all cases, when they come before the ICC, stand up and the perpetrators are held to account. Ms Klympush-Tsintsadze stated in May that Ukraine had asked countries to send forensics experts and special prosecutors to Ukraine to help deal with these crimes and document them in accordance with the standards necessary for the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. Are there specific requirements at this point to assist in that crucial work to hold the perpetrators to account? Many countries have sent investigators, forensic scientists and so on. Are there any gaps there or other requirements?

I will raise the use of humanitarian aid as a weapon of war by Russia. I am thinking of the catastrophic conditions in places such as the Horn of Africa and how important grain from Ukraine is to the region. Russia has stopped co-operating with the recent agreement. Will Mr. Merezhko give the committee an insight into the current position in that regard? Exports have continued despite Russia pulling back from the agreement.

Mr. Merezhko touched on the reasons Ukraine will not negotiate or speak to Russia, which is fully understandable. The White House national security adviser, Mr. Jake Sullivan, was in Kyiv last week.

It was widely reported - I am unsure if it was being attributed to Mr. Sullivan or to some other senior US officials - that Ukraine was being urged to signal that it is still open to diplomatic discussions with Russia. It was suggested that there may be a wariness among some donors who have been assisting Ukraine and this was seen as some sort of an attempt to shore up that public support in some quarters which may be starting to diminish. Perhaps Mr. Merezhko might comment on this, noting all of the reasons Russia should not be negotiated with, but perhaps referring to those earlier comments which have been attributed to Mr. Sullivan.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Having regard to the fact that a number of questions have been put by the Deputy, I propose to revert to Mr. Merezhko at this stage. I will then return to Deputy Berry. Mr. Merezhko now has the floor to deal with the many and varied questions posed by Deputy Brady.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

I thank Deputy Brady for all of the questions which are all important. I have discerned six major questions from these.

I will start with the final one in respect of the statement by the US national security adviser, Jake Sullivan. I understand this statement in an open way. He meant that the US has communication with Russia but these communications are not negotiations in the specific meaning of this word. When the US representative to the UN came to Kyiv today, she said very specifically that it is up to Ukraine only to decide whether there are negotiations, when to hold them, and with whom. Basically, our partners - the US is our closest friend, ally and partner - have said many times officially that it is the sovereign right of Ukraine to decide the issue regarding negotiations. What was also important in the statement of the US representative to the UN was that she said the US will abide by the principle of "nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine". The US will not decide the fate of Ukraine without Ukraine itself. This is a very good sign because the US, as our friend, respects our sovereignty and continues to do so regarding negotiations.

At the same time, we know that there is a difference in diplomacy. Direct negotiations are one thing and contacts or communications are something different. In order to make a swap or exchange of prisoners of war, for example, one needs some kind of communication. To reach a grain deal, one should have some kind of communication with mediators. That is a different story and a different aspect of this. Most importantly, I reiterate that others do not impose upon Ukraine whether to conduct any kind of negotiations. That is very important to us and we value very highly and respect their position on that.

Deputy Brady’s first question related to energy and the energy crisis. To tell the truth, I do not remember the exact figures. I know that the situation with energy is critical in Ukraine because, as I said before, Russia deliberately targets and destroys power plants. Luckily, due to the heroism of our people, we have managed to restore our power plants. Of course it is difficult and it takes time. Each time we are bombarded, when Russia uses Iranian drones or cruise missiles to destroy us, it is becoming more and more difficult for us but we are coping with this. Right now, the situation is under control even though it is very difficult.

On a further question regarding nuclear blackmail, everything Russia is doing is being done for a certain reason and with a goal in mind. Putin’s final goal is to destroy Ukraine in any way possible: militarily and economically, using propaganda, and sowing the seeds of distrust among our partners with all kinds of actions. As for the use of nuclear weapons, to me it is an act of blackmail on the part of Putin. In this way he may give some arguments to politicians in the west who are sceptical about Ukraine and want to find arguments to stop helping Ukraine. These politicians might argue that the prospect of Putin resorting to nuclear weapons against Ukraine, or the whole of Europe, means that we should prevent what they call the escalation of the conflict, but this is rubbish. Putin can only be dealt with from a position of strength. Each of his crimes should be met with a more powerful response on the part of the whole civilised world and all democratic countries. This is the only solution because what provokes the aggressor? Weakness - not being resolute or decisive enough - is what provokes him. We should be very resolute and decisive when we respond to each of Putin’s crimes.

A further question was raised about the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Right now, it is under Russian control and occupation and our citizens working at this plant are also working in difficult conditions of occupation. Putin may use this for his provocative goals and as a sort of nuclear weapon. There were examples of this when the Russian army deliberately targeted the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant and such cases were registered. Unfortunately, Putin can do this again. There is no need for him to use nuclear weapons when he can use a nuclear reactor as a nuclear bomb, such as the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. This is also a very dangerous situation. That is why we need to demilitarise and to do everything we can to make Russian troops withdraw from the territory of the plant. Perhaps we need the help of the international community, including the International Atomic Energy Agency. This can be done under the aegis of this international organisation. The point is to prevent Putin from provoking and blackmailing us because it is the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe. If Putin resorts to this provocation, the consequences may be much more serious and destructive than the explosion at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant.

On the further question of war crimes, our prosecutor general's office in Ukraine has an international team of experts who are helping us to document and collect the evidence. If I am not mistaken, more than 20,000 cases of such war crimes have already been registered. I am a professor of international law and I know that there are four categories of such international crimes. War crimes and crimes committed by the Russian army, violations of laws and customs of war, and violations of international humanitarian law have been registered by our office of the general prosecutor and by the international team of experts. There are also thousands and thousands of crimes against humanity, in other words, crimes against civilians and civilian objects. When we liberated our territories, such as recently when we liberated Izium which is a town in our territory, we discovered many mass graves.

We can see mass graves in the occupied territories via Sputnik. From areas near to Mariupol they are growing. There are tens of thousands of victims. I am afraid to think of what we will discover when we liberate Mariupol and how many victims we will see. That is why it is important for all democratic countries to help us document and register evidence not only for the International Criminal Court but for future court cases dealing with the crime of aggression. Acts of genocide have been committed by Russian troops. There is a lot of evidence of genocide committed by Russia against the Ukrainian population and nation.

We are now working on the creation of a special international tribunal on crimes of aggression and trying to persuade other countries to support us in doing so. This is important because, unfortunately, the ICC does not have jurisdiction in this regard. That is why we need a separate court. The crime of aggression is relatively easy to prove because the evidence is on the surface. It is a so-called leadership crime. It is crime committed by the Russian leadership, including Vladimir Putin himself, his entourage, inner circle and supporters, basically the Government of Russia. It is important because we need to bring to justice all perpetrators and war criminals. It is important to treat Putin as a war criminal because he is commander-in-chief and the person responsible for all of the war crimes committed by his army and the acts of genocide.

The next issue is the grain deal, if I am not mistaken. We should remember that Russia is trying to create a blockade on the shores of Ukraine and destroy us economically by preventing us from exporting our grain. In this way, Russia is pursuing two goals. The first is to destroy Ukraine economically and the second is to cause an artificial famine in the world, especially in the countries of Africa and Asia. Putin understands what he is doing. He is doing it deliberately because he might use this artificial famine for propaganda purposes against Ukraine. Russia has made an attempt to withdraw from the grain deal but luckily, under pressure, including from Turkey, Russia had to return to the deal. We should keep constant pressure on Russia to prevent it from withdrawing from the grain deal because it will cause serious problems and casualties, not only in Ukraine but also in the world. I have tried to answer the questions.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Thank you for that. I remind the meeting that we are joined online by Deputy David Stanton and Senators Diarmuid Wilson and Catherine Ardagh. I have received an apology from Senator Joe O'Reilly who is chairing the Seanad but will join us later.

Cathal Berry (Kildare South, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Merezhko for his detailed opening statement. I am very sorry for what his country and people are going through. He can be assured of the absolute support of the Independent parliamentary group, of which I am a member, in his country's struggle with Russia.

I will focus on diplomacy in my questions. Mr. Merezhko brought up a number of points. I take his point on the difference between negotiation and communication. My first question concerns prisoner exchanges. I congratulate Ukraine on getting so many of its prisoners back, in particular the Mariupol defenders. What is the line of communication between Russia and Ukraine? Is it between Kyiv and Moscow? Is it a local arrangement? Is it through an intermediary like the ICRC?

My second question is about the Black Sea grain deal. I again congratulate Ukraine on securing its part of the deal. What is the situation in Odesa? Are there silos with spare capacity? How many ships a day or a week are sailing through the Black Sea full of grain? Does Mr. Merezhko see an extension past 17 November for the grain deal?

We are grappling with the same situation in Dublin in respect of our Russian ambassador who was before the committee in this very room twice in the past 18 months. He completely misled the committee, as we expected him to do. What is Ukraine's position on Russian ambassadors, embassies and consulates around the world? Would it appreciate if Ireland expelled our Russian ambassador? Would it prefer that we reduce the staff numbers in the Russian embassy to allow at least some semblance of communication between Ireland and Moscow?

My next question relates to generators. I presume Mr. Merezhko is aware that Ireland is prepared to give non-lethal aid. Deputy Brady touched on the fact that there seems to be a need for fuel and generators, in particular diesel generators. Is that something Mr. Merezhko would welcome from Ireland?

He may not have an answer to my next question. Ireland has committed about €65 million to the European peace facility. I am not sure how much of that has been drawn down; I am hearing very little. Apparently the €65 million is ring-fenced for non-lethal assistance to Ukraine. Does Ukraine need non-lethal assistance? Are we providing money for a purpose that is not really needed by Ukraine?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Berry. They are all extremely important questions. Before going to Deputy Stanton, I will call on Mr. Merezhko to deal with those questions.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

If I forget to answer a question, please remind me because a year ago I had coronavirus and it seems like after that I keep forgetting figures. Regarding the Deputy's last question on non-lethal support, I am not sure if I understood him correctly. We need everything for our army in particular. All kinds of supports are necessary for our army. I can recall being approached by my colleagues in the US who asked me the same question, namely, what we specifically needed for the army in terms of non-lethal supports. I asked my colleague, who is very knowledgeable about this, and he said, "Everything". Unfortunately, this is true especially in wintertime. I read an interesting piece of information today, namely, that North Korea will provide Russia with equipment and clothing for winter. Imagine North Korea trying to help an aggressor state in this way before the winter.

Ukraine needs all kinds of support and we have a very strong movement of volunteers. Common people gather money in order to buy drones, equipment, clothing and everything for our army. That is why we appreciate Ireland's support in providing necessary aid, including humanitarian aid.

Generators are a problem.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that in this situation we can easily predict that Russia will destroy more and more of our energy system and infrastructure. We need generators, especially for schools and kindergartens, which are absolutely necessary to get through the winter.

The question on embassies is very interesting. I often recall, if I am not mistaken, Article 16 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which was a statutory document. To me, this article is an example of how guidelines should be done in the case of a war of aggression. It states very clearly that all contacts, including diplomatic, political and even personal contacts, should be severed with the aggressor state. This is a solution because Russia should be isolated diplomatically. I have taught a course on diplomatic law and even if diplomatic relations are severed, it does not mean that consular relations cannot continue. However, all European and democratic countries should sever diplomatic relations with Russia. That is important symbolically and politically because it increases the isolation of Russia. We should also remember that nowadays the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Russian diplomatic service are not peaceful and constructive. They are also war criminals. They are accomplices to Russian war crimes and crimes against humanity. They are part of the Russian war machine. There should not be any mistake in this regard. They should not be treated as diplomats; they are war criminals. That is why I am in favour of the severance of all diplomatic relations with Russia.

As for prisoners of war and their exchange, unfortunately, I do not know how this mechanism works. When I was involved in a trilateral contact group as the deputy head of the Ukrainian delegation, I knew how that mechanism worked at that time. It was a very complicated and delicate mechanism. Again, it was not about negotiations. It was about communications, which were sometimes very delicate. In our case, and this is a very important difference between Russia and Ukraine, for Ukrainians, each life matters and we are fighting hard for each life and each prisoner of war. We want to return to their families every soldier who was taken as a prisoner of war and is in captivity. We are fighting for each of them because we care. In our constitution, human dignity and human life is the primary and highest social value. That is true. It is a different story for Russia. It does not care about its people or the dead bodies of its people, which it does not want to take back. It does not care about the families of its soldiers who died as recruits in our territory. That is why this process is difficult and very delicate. I can assure the committee that Ukraine is doing everything it can to return all our soldiers. It is especially important because Christmas and the new year is coming and we want to see all our soldiers back. However, I do not know how the mechanism works nowadays.

On Odesa, when Russia made an attempt to withdraw from the grain deal, a line of our ships loaded with grain had formed. There were approximately 146 ships - I do not remember exactly how many - with grain. There was a line of ships waiting for the blockade to lift and the opportunity to leave Odesa. Russia, however, even after the grain deal was concluded, bombed Odesa. The situation now seems more stable but Odesa is constantly under risk of bombardment, which can happen at any moment. Again, we are doing everything we can to restore this grain deal and to export our grain abroad.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I see that Mr. Merezhko may be joined by a member of his committee, Ms Olga Rudenko. If she wishes to make a contribution after Deputy Stanton, we would be very pleased to hear from her. In the meantime, I call Deputy Stanton, who is online in his office in the Houses.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation which, as always, was very moving, strong and powerful. I also recognise the presence of the ambassador and her constant hard work on behalf of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.

Many questions have been asked and I will not repeat any of them. I will touch on one or two matters. There have been reports in the past few days about preparations to evacuate Kyiv in the event of further attacks. I noticed today that reports indicate that is not being encouraged. I ask Mr. Merezhko to comment on the displaced peoples, both internal and external, of Ukraine. How many people have had to move house? How are Ukrainians coping? Many people have come to other countries in Europe. They have been welcomed here and we are doing the best we can to look after people and house them. They are going to school and quite a number of them are working and so forth. I would like Mr. Merezhko to comment on the experience of peoples from Ukraine who have had to leave their homes and are displaced internally and externally. That is one question.

My second question which, for me, is intriguing relates to the position of the churches. I noticed that the Orthodox Church in Russia seems to support the Russian war and Russian aggression. I am perplexed about how a Christian church could do that. Mr. Merezhko might comment on that and on whether there has been any contact between the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and the church in Russia.

Third, I note that the Prime Minister of India recently said that the war in impacting on everybody all over the world and so forth, while at the same time India is purchasing oil and so on from Russia. Has the Ukrainian Parliament and President made contact with India? What kind of relationship is there between Ukraine and India? What kind of communication is there between the Governments of both countries?

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

I will start with the question regarding India. It is a painful question for me personally because I lived in India for a year. I used to work as a professor of international law at Jindal Global Law School and Jindal Global University. India prides itself on being the biggest democracy. It is a question for India, if it considers itself to be a true democracy, to ask why it is not on the side of all democratic states. What we have now is not only a war by Russia against Ukraine. We should view it in a broader perspective as a war by an authoritarian regime against the free world and democratic states. Countries such as India should be on the side of democratic states because the future of global democracy and of India depends on this battle. For example, I recently visited Jakarta in Indonesia as a member of a delegation to a summit of speakers from the G20. We tried to have bilateral contacts and meetings with all the members of the G20 and other countries that came. We had such contacts with many countries.

For some reason, however, the Indian delegation refused to meet us. That is very worrisome and telling. I do not understand what is going on. I was invited to appear on Indian television a couple of times and, from what I saw, they understand the truth and what is going on. They understand who is the true perpetrator and who is responsible for this aggression. It may be a difficult choice between material or economic interests on one hand, and values and principles on the other. At a certain point, it may be that each country has to make this difficult choice. Countries have to decide whether to choose interests and values such as democracy, rule of law, security of the world and the fate of democracy in the world, or their selfish economic interests by buying Russian oil and gas at a discount. Unfortunately, India is not making the right choice. We have to work with it. We have to persuade it. It is not hopeless. We need to have more contact but, unfortunately, we do not have that contact at the moment.

As for the churches, it has always been a complicated issue. In Ukraine, we are a secular state. Under our constitution, it is prohibited for the state to interfere with the events of religion. It is one of the principles of our constitutional law, and we absolutely agree with that. Things change when we are dealing with the fact that, under the guise of the church, there is a propaganda machine of the enemy. Since Soviet times, the Russian Orthodox Church has always been a part of the propaganda machine controlled by the state. It acted under control. Now, the Russian Orthodox Church is being used as an element of Russian propaganda, even the war machine, against Ukraine. The representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church - the priests - are giving their blessing to Russian soldiers to kill Ukrainians. This is true. This is the blessing of genocide against Ukrainians. Let us be frank and honest about this. To us, it is a big problem. There are several Orthodox churches. One is Ukrainian and it is totally independent of Russia. Another such church has historically been dependent on Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate. I am not a religious person but I believe the latter Ukrainian church, which has had ties with Moscow, should sever those ties. It should be on the side of citizens of Ukraine who are defending their lives and the lives of their families against foreign aggression. At least, it should not support Russian propaganda against Ukrainian people. I understand it is a delicate issue but, in times when we are fighting for our survival, it is also an important political issue. I noticed that, starting in 2014, the common people who attended the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine realised that Russia brings death to Ukraine, and they moved away from these relations with Moscow. There are important changes taking place right now. I am not an expert on religious matters; I am just expressing my personal view as a citizen of Ukraine.

What was the other question asked by the Deputy?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I asked about displaced peoples in Ukraine and outside it - the numbers, how they are getting on, the pressures on them and so forth. There are such people all over Europe. We have taken in a number of them here and are doing the best we can to look after them and so forth. Some of them are going to school, while others are working and so on. What is happening within Ukraine in that regard? What does Mr. Merezhko expect will happen? Will more people be compelled to leave as a result of the terrible situation in which they find themselves?

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

It is one of the biggest challenges and problems we face right now. We have millions of internally displaced people who have lost everything. I have spoken to these people. When I was in Lviv, there was a centre for displaced people which was located on campus in a gymnasium. I saw whole families with only a mattress and all their belongings. It was very moving to see children's toys. These people, who lost everything, were thinking at the last moment about what they could carry with them. Some of them took children's toys, while others took a cat or small dog or something like that. It is a huge tragedy for these people who lost everything and do not know what to do. It will be an economic and social problem. It is an acute problem right now because it is not easy to build new houses quickly for them. We have received assistance from our friends, such as Poland. It came up with a project through which it has been building modular towns in Ukraine. That helps to ease the problem but it does not solve it. When there are millions of such people, one has to think about how to give them housing. That is in circumstances, however, of our tremendous budget deficit of $5 billion per month. Having such a deficit, it is difficult to build new houses. It is an acute problem, unfortunately.

Another problem is those who left the territory of Ukraine and are now in Poland, Germany and other countries. We refer to them not as refugees but as temporarily displaced people. Some of my relatives became temporarily displaced people. We are grateful to the countries that are helping them and taking care of them. It is important, especially when it comes to children. At the same time, it is another problem that we will face in a couple of years, after the end of the war. We might lose the new generation of Ukrainians and that might be the biggest blow to our society and economy. We need to think about how to create the conditions in Ukraine to make it attractive for young people not to go abroad. They can receive a good education and find a job abroad but stay in Ukraine. Otherwise, we have no future. We do not want to have a lost generation. That is why, when we are speaking about reconstruction and rebuilding Ukraine, the key problem is human capital - how to retain our young people and what should be done in that regard. That is why we will need the help of Ireland and other countries after the end of the war.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Ms Rudenko has her hand raised. She is very welcome to the committee. I am pleased to give her the floor if she wishes to make a contribution or give us her observations on issues she wishes to raise.

Ms Olga Rudenko:

I thank the Chairman. I have been listening to the conversation. I thank the committee and Mr. Merezhko for organising the meeting. Mr. Merezhko has been giving detailed and extensive answers. I will add some points to what he has said. In recent days, I have been studying information about our electricity and heating station facilities. There has been heat about the figures. In the eastern parts of Ukraine, most of the facilities, such as water supplies and electricity, have been destroyed completely. That is where the battlefield was most extensive. With the recent attacks that started on 10 October, rockets and missiles have been hitting electricity stations and other facilities and infrastructure.

Mostly central and northern parts of Ukraine have been hit. In some parts about 30% or 40% has been hit. In the Kyiv region today about 50% of some areas have been destroyed. Our people are busy all the time reconstructing and fixing this. However, some places have been hit by missiles several times already. Some were hit three times. Now they say that in the Kyiv region in two weeks they can fix most of it. Energy is now reduced by about 80% but in two weeks we will have fewer electricity cuts. We still expect missiles to hit again, however, so nobody can guarantee how long it will last. Up to 50% of central and northern parts have been hit. In western parts it is better at about 20% or 30%. The whole of Ukraine has been affected. We have energy cuts in all of Ukraine.

The evacuation was in the news. I refer to the evacuation of Kyiv, for example. At this time about 50% of the people who went abroad to save their lives from war have returned to Ukraine. They plan to stay here even with the electricity cuts and shortage of water. They are ready to stay. If there is a complete blackout and a complete shortage of water and electricity, they will have no heat. Then they will have to save their children. They are prepared to go to EU countries such as Poland to save their families. They are reluctant to do that now. They are ready to stay and live in this situation where there is no electricity for half of the day. They do not want to go. They are ready to stay and suffer this.

Questions were asked about India. I was part of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, IPU, delegation to Rwanda a few weeks ago. An emergency resolution with regard to Ukraine was proposed by the Chilean delegation. It condemned Russia's accession of territories and Russian aggression. We had a vote. There were two emergency items at one point, one from Pakistan and one from Chile about Ukraine. Interestingly, India supported both of them. It supported the Ukrainian one as well as the Pakistani one. We have to work in this direction and develop our relations with India. There is space to work on this. That is what I wanted to say.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Ms Rudenko has referred to the energy crisis. I saw the mayor of Kyiv on Irish television this week. He said the situation in Kyiv is critical. He warned of long power outages and difficult experiences for people with winter approaching. I note that 17 countries throughout the EU have provided a total of 500 generators. That strikes me as a small number of generators. No doubt Ms Rudenko, through this committee, would like to appeal to Ireland to provide some power generators in order to assist in the difficult times ahead.

Before I call Senator Craughwell, I wish to ask Ms Rudenko and Mr. Merezhko a question. Ireland is a member of the EU and of the UN and is currently a member of the UN Security Council. Ireland is not a member of NATO. Ireland is also a member of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE. Do Ms Rudenko and Mr. Merezhko see a stronger role, or any role, for the OSCE in the current crisis? The OSCE is a body which in many respects has not been as active as perhaps might otherwise have been expected.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

To tell the truth, the OSCE cannot do much. It cannot stop Russian aggression, unfortunately. I have spoken to its representatives, who cannot or do not want to expel Russia from the OSCE despite all its crimes. Unfortunately, the Russian aggression has shown the weakness of key international organisations such as the UN and the OSCE. They cannot do anything to stop Russia from committing crimes. This is the truth. After the defeat of Russia, we will have to raise the issue of changing the architecture of the international security system. We will have to overhaul the security system. I sometimes wonder why the OSCE even exists as it cannot do anything. Maybe it can adopt resolutions, but the decisions of the OSCE are taken by consensus and Russia can block such decisions or even resolutions. Russia cannot be expelled from the OSCE so what is the point of this organisation’s existence? I do not have the answer to that. The same is true of the UN, unfortunately. Russia took the place of the Soviet Union in the UN in violation of the UN Charter. It was a violation. It was a political but not a legal decision. According to the text of the UN Charter, the permanent members of the Security Council include the Soviet Union. There is no mention of Russia. In my view, in international law we should not recognise Russia as a member of the UN because it took the place of the Soviet Union in violation of the UN Charter. It should have applied. Russia and the Soviet Union are two different subjects of international law and two different states. It was a huge political mistake.

I wish to give an example of how the people of Ukraine are coping and have got used to living in the abnormal conditions of war. Kharkiv, which is 50 km from the Russian border, used to be a city of 2 million inhabitants. Now, instead of 2 million people, just 700,000 remain because of constant shelling and bombardments. People get used to the shelling. They repair and go back to their lives because they have no other choice. They do not want to leave their city. They want to continue to live there. Not many people can leave Kyiv, for example. I cannot imagine the humanitarian catastrophe if, God forbid, we will have to evacuate people. I cannot imagine how it could be done. That is why we need to do everything possible to prevent this humanitarian catastrophe from happening. Despite the blackouts, all of us living in Kyiv come up with our own ways to survive. I have two small children. My youngest daughter is one year old. She needs to have warm milk. We have no gas. During blackouts, my wife uses candles to warm the milk for our small daughter. Each person in Kyiv comes up with his or her own survival skills in these conditions.

We continue to do so but, again, we need Ireland's help. First, we need to stop the Russian aggression and war machine. Second, we need help with repairing our cities and infrastructure.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I acknowledge the presence of the ambassador. For people following the meeting in Ukraine, you have an ambassador and staff in Dublin who work extremely hard for displaced citizens who arrive in this country, many of whom I have met.

The Chairman adverted to the issue of generators. The Russians have clearly targeted electricity, gas and water infrastructure in particular. In high-rise apartment blocks the demand for high-powered generators must be fairly high. It would be handy to have quantified exactly what Ukraine needs in order to identify what part Ireland can play in the provision of generators. I also met Ukraine's military attaché about a week ago, who expressed a desire to have winter tents and clothing made available. Can we get some idea of the numbers we are talking about? That would be helpful.

I speak as an Independent and I do not speak for Ireland in any way. As regards support for Ukraine, I find it regrettable that we have weapons here that we could provide to Ukraine. Having provided military helmets, medical aid, first aid and flak jackets, the move to provide weapons is a very short step. There is no question of where we stand on the war; we are 100% supportive of and behind Ukraine's struggle. We will keep advocating for the provision of what limited weapons we have. We do not have a whole lot, to be totally honest about it.

I am concerned about the number of displaced people who are still attempting to enter Ireland. It is not that we do not want Ukraine's citizens here. We wish to provide any accommodation and resources we can but, right now, we have nothing left. Ukrainian people arriving here are coming to very poor accommodation and circumstances. The country will do everything it possibly can but we have to be realistic about what we can offer. Ukraine's ambassador has made that point quite clearly in recent days.

We will continue to fight the struggle with Ukraine. We think it may become a distant war over the winter period in which there will be less face-to-face contact and more missile attacks, especially long-range missiles into Kyiv and other major cities, and that we will unfortunately have to watch from the outside. I totally support Mr. Merezhko's comments on the UN Security Council. I do not believe the Soviet Union should have a seat on the Security Council because there is no Soviet Union but, then again, I do not believe the UN Security Council is fit for purpose any more. Our Government has tried to change the veto in the Security Council which is a key issue. I would like to think the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, would have a greater role but I understand Mr. Merezhko's answer.

I do not have any other questions. Slava Ukraini. I wish Mr. Merezhko and Ms Rudenko the very best of luck and we are with them.

Ms Olga Rudenko:

We greatly appreciate Ireland's help with our displaced people. It is good to know how well they are treated in Ireland. I spoke to many people and Ireland is one of the best countries for them to live. I know Ireland does not have enough accommodation. We know this and we do not have any complaints. We know that Ireland does more than it can and we appreciate that a lot.

With regard to the list of needs, in addition to generators, warm clothing and so on, we need replacement parts for the electricity plant facilities because they have been destroyed and electricity companies are running out of their own supplies. I do not know exactly what the parts are called but we need replacement parts to fix the transformers in power plants.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is an interesting point.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

The good news is that the electricity has come back while we were talking to the committee. When we have electricity back the first thing we do is try to recharge our smartphones. It is good news that the power is back. I think it is also a result of our friendly conversation and a good sign. Ireland is one of my favourite countries. I have never been there but I know its literature. I cannot explain what it is when I meet Irish people but there is a term, "like-minded people". We understand each other perfectly. Sometimes there is no need even for words for us to understand each other. I do not know how to explain it. Maybe there are some parallels in our history, culture or mentality but I view Irish people as our true friends.

I understand that Ireland is not a superpower which can provide us with all the weaponry we need and so on, but I see that it is wholeheartedly doing everything it can for us. We value that very highly and we view Ireland and its people as our true friends. Ireland is a superpower with regard to culture and in political terms because it has a very strong influence in the United States. I am not ashamed to ask Ireland to use its influence in the United States to help Ukraine because Ireland's diaspora is highly respected. One of my colleagues, a congressman, has an Irish last name and I was surprised when he said he was Irish. It means Ireland has influence. I ask that it try to support us in this way.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Unless members wish to come back with further questions or observations, I will bring matters towards a conclusion. I am very pleased to see you operating in more appropriate parliamentary surrounds and circumstances than the candlelight under which you were operating earlier. I thank both Ms Rudenko and Mr. Merezhko for joining us.

Ms Olga Rudenko:

Thank you.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I hope both of you will have an opportunity to formally visit Ireland in the near future when circumstances allow. You will have an opportunity to meet with representatives of in excess of 60,000 temporarily displaced people who have received a welcome from us in Ireland. We will continue to do our best with regard to appropriate accommodation, the need for schooling and education, health services and integration with the Irish community through jobs and social services.

If Mr. Merezhko is planning a parliamentary visit, we would be more than pleased to host him. Perhaps it is something that might be planned for next year. I will say in conclusion, that as parliamentarians, Mr. Merezhko, his colleagues, and his Government can be particularly proud of the active role being played here on a 24-7 basis by their excellent ambassador, H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko, who has been particularly active here in matters relating to Ukraine and Ireland. She is a credit to the Ukrainian Government and to her people.

Ireland will continue to prioritise the situation in Ukraine, whether as a national sovereign State in terms of our support for Ukraine, and through the international organisations such as the European Union, of which we are an active member, where we are engaged with the financing and reconstruction plan, our support in terms of humanitarian aid through commitment to the European Peace Facility and also our monetary contribution towards the International Criminal Court. Mr. Merezhko will have got a flavour from our members. As a parliamentary committee, our members represent Government and Opposition parties, and in the case of Senator Craughwell, Independent members. While we may differ in terms of emphasis, what I hope he has felt is solidarity from the Irish Parliament and its representatives towards Ukraine and the illegal occupation of its country earlier this year. We trust we will have a further opportunity of engaging directly with Mr. Merezhko and his members in the new year perhaps, when hopefully the circumstances in Ukraine will have changed for the better. In the meantime, we extend our full support to him and wish him every success in his endeavours to facilitate his people in this time of great crisis. I thank both Mr. Merezhko and Ms Rudenko.

Mr. Oleksandr Merezhko:

I thank the Chair. He is always welcome to Ukraine and to Kyiv.