Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The committee will hear from the following representatives: Councillor Laurence Fallon, Ms Geraldine Murray and Mr. Tommy Kearney. I ask the group to make its opening statement. There are people here who are anxious to ask questions and to put them on the public record, so if you could keep your opening statement to around five minutes, Councillor Fallon, we would appreciate it.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the opportunity to come here to make our points about a problem we have that has devastated our community. I thank especially Senator Murphy, who helped the committee to convene the meeting. We appreciate that work. I also thank Deputies Naughten and Fitzmaurice and Senator Dolan as well as Senator Murphy, who are here today, for their work and their ongoing support in this challenge, which has been with us for seven years. It is our hope that today's meeting will show the magnitude of the problem. Following full discussion, I hope more clarity can be brought as to how we can resolve the crisis we face.

Lough Funshinagh has five streams coming into it. It is classified as a turlough, which could be questioned at this stage. All the water drains out through underground cavities, so there is no overland drain out of Lough Funshinagh.

I will hand the committee over to Ms Murray, who will give Members a brief history of the problems of Lough Funshinagh over recent years, followed by Mr. Kearney.

Ms Geraldine Murray:

I thank Mr. Fallon, the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for this opportunity. I will focus for the next few minutes on where we have come from and where we are today with regard to Lough Funshinagh.

Lough Funshinagh, as Mr. Fallon said, was and is classified as a turlough and is referred to as Ireland's disappearing lake. Its sudden disappearance can take as little as two days and can happen every four or five years. The last disappearances of the lough were in 1986 and 1996. Surface catchment contributes to the inflow of the lake. The lake measures about 38.8 sq. km and, until the time it expanded due to flooding, had a maximum coverage of 600 acres, increasing to more than 1,300 acres in 2021, so it is twice the size it was. It is also a special area of conservation.

I will take the committee down through the years, particularly from 2016 to 2021 because that is when the flooding really started, and it has not reduced to any great extent since. In 2016 the lough reached a record high. The first home was under threat, with 6,000 sandbags trying to keep a foot of water at bay. Two pumps, one pumping 50,000 gallons of water an hour, were manned 24-7 by volunteers working four-hour shifts.

In 2016, the previous high water record set in 1995 was surpassed by about 1.2 m and a huge earth bund containing about 2,000 tonnes of earth was erected in Ballagh, which is one of the affected villages, in an effort to withhold water and prevent flooding. Despite an exceptionally dry winter in 2016-17 water levels remained significantly high and remained above normal levels. This is turn results in a higher base when moving forward into each successive year. Public roads were raised at that time by 1.2 m in places and the building of flood defences continued unabated.

I will move on to 2018 when the then Minister of State, Kevin Boxer Moran, proposed a pipe be installed to bring the excess water to the Shannon. The Lough Funshinagh flood relief scoping study commenced in October of that year. However, in 2019 there was a lot of frustration because the scoping study was quite slow, but it came to fruition after approximately ten months. The report suggested that a pipe to Lough Funshinagh was possible.

I refer members to slides 5 and 6 to see photographs of the flooding when it started in 2016. Farmyards began to be encroached by water. Two hay sheds are shown in the photographs. On slide 6 members will see a farmyard completely covered with water. The public road in front of the gate is also completely covered and it was not operational for quite a few months. The public road to an entire village had to be closed off and another access and exit route identified. In 2020, there was heavy rainfall. Calls persisted for an overflow pipe all summer. Lough Funshinagh was then 2 m higher than in August 2019 and from an observational perspective - I do not unfortunately have any hard data - there was devastation of the local flora, fauna and the habitat that was once the hallmark of Lough Funshinagh. It was no longer recognisable. Pumps and sandbags replaced what were once beautiful landscaped gardens in the village of Ballagh. Slide 8 shows photographs of pumps in front of the houses, sandbags, etc.

I will move on to the village on the other side of Lough Funshinagh. Members will see two photographs of the entrance to a farmyard in lower Lisphelim on slide 9. The farmyard and the entrance to the farmyard are completely covered with water. Hay sheds were gutted with water. I ask members to observe the difference between the two photographs. In one the water is perfectly clear. After a while it goes completely muddy. Imagine that going into your farmyard. This gentleman's house is beside and to the left of the shed and the septic tank was also flooding. The public road along lower Lisphelim was completely cut off as members will see from the next photographs which show two roads completely covered by the over-swelling lough.

In winter 2021, waters were rising daily and edging closer and closer to the homes and farmyards. More pumps were activated to try to keep the water at bay and were at full force outside some of the homes in Ballagh. This was the situation in January with three months of rain still expected. The roads had been raised by a further metre. They were going up each year, reaching a rise of two metres - or 6.6 ft which I understand more - notably in Ballagh and the village of Lisphelim. The CEO of Roscommon County Council called on the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, OPW, to provide funding for an overflow pipe to prevent worsening floods and flood damage and to remove excess water. Needless to say there were truly heartbreaking scenes in Ballagh at the time.

In the spring of 2021, Lough Funshinagh was at the highest level ever recorded, measuring at least 3 m above the highest average winter level. By that time one house had been destroyed by flooding and pumps prevented three further homes from flooding. An order was signed in June by the CEO of the county council for flood relief measures to commence immediately under the Local Authorities (Works) Act 1949. In August, legal action was taken by Friends of the Irish Environment, FIE, and the council vowed to defend the project in court at that stage. FIE however successfully applied to the High Court to have plans for an overflow pipe quashed. Locals appealed to FIE to drop the case. The project was withdrawn by the council amidst much fear in the local communities.

In October, the CEO of the county council signed a new order under the Emergency Powers Act to remove excess water from Lough Funshinagh. In December, a further legal challenge to the councils relief plans was brought by FIE in court on 21 December seeking an injunction to stop the works. FIE secured that injunction preventing any further construction works taking place until the matter was fully determined by the courts. However, at the court hearing in March the judge upheld the injunction pending a full judicial review. However, the county council did not have the means to proceed with the judicial review. The decision and its outcome and conclusion left everyone in the villages devastated.

It is important I run through the slide about 2022. The county council called on the Government to cover the significant legal bill and wrote to ask that four issues be considered. It called on the Government to cover the significant legal bill facing the council following the High Court action by FIE; called on the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, to intervene on behalf of the council to progress the stalled work and any future emergency plans; requested that the Government repeal the lake's designation as a turlough and as an EU habitat site, arguing the lake no longer fits the characteristics of a turlough; and requested that the planning regulation be amended and clarity given on the Local Authorities (Works) Act to allow works to be conducted to save the homes by the lake in the future. It argued that these classifications, along with formal guidance, would help the council respond to future emergency works and urged the Government to progress reform of judicial reviews and legal costs.

On the next few slides, members will see more houses that were flooded by the water as recently as a couple of years ago. It is important to focus on slide 16. Members will see the same house in three different situations. The first photograph shows it as it was many years ago prior to 2016. The second photograph was taken after it had been invaded by water although the water had dried. In the last photograph members will see a house that was saved from Lough Funshinagh flooding in 2016 but is now in the process of demolition. The digger was supposed to arrive last week to finish the process. The local community had gathered in support of the owners, the O'Meara family, but were left standing in the rain looking at what was a home for many years and now does not have a roof or windows. Floors have been removed and the rain, wind and the day were battering the shell. At the back of what was once a beautiful home are the remnants of family living and a massive earth embankment built in the hope of protection from the flooding. Alas this was not to be. A basic human right surely, is the right to have a home, to be able to live in a home, to not be forced out of one's home due to flooding that could have been prevented. We hope not to see any more unnecessary evictions or relocations. This is not what the community wants. This is the first demolition and we hope it will be the last.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That was a very disturbing presentation and those last three photographs, as Ms Murray said, show a lovely family home completely destroyed by flooding with water coming into the house. We had what would be considered minor flooding in Thurles about ten days ago and the devastation it caused was immense. I cannot but think about the anguish that the people of Lough Funshinagh are going through. We have four Oireachtas Members from Roscommon. I will allow them ten minutes each.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

Chair, could Mr. Kearney make a small intervention for a minute or two?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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He can make a short one.

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

I will keep it brief. I am from the townland of Ballagh where my family has lived for several generations. I would like to talk about the impact of Lough Funshinagh flooding on the farming community living around the lake. I propose to deal with the issue from two points of view. They are the financial implications and the humanitarian impact. The farming community has suffered significant financial losses, in agricultural production losses and agricultural policy payments. I will give an example of production losses from my own case. With a reduction of circa30 acres for the entirety of the past six years, I have had to reduce my stock from 12 suckler cows to four and my breeding ewe flock from 50 to 26. In addition, access to my remaining land has become problematic. In February 2021, for example, my vet was able to access my farmyard for my annual herd test on Tuesday but when he returned to read the results on the following Friday, he could only access it on foot. I am sure members will appreciate that such access issues cause serious difficulties and stress in times of animal husbandry emergencies, both for farmer and animal. Another example of access issues is the case of another farmer who is located less than 1 km from a land parcel who is forced to make a round trip of 30 km to access his land due to roads being flooded.

An example of loss of agricultural policy payments relates to one farmer who had a penalty of €4,500 in 2017.

For the next five years, he was forced to lease premiums at 50% of their value, resulting in a cumulative loss of €11,250. The total loss was therefore €15,750, excluding production losses.

On the humanitarian impact, the impact of the flooding was and is the cause of much turmoil in the lives of the affected community. For weeks and months on end, people were and are afraid to leave their homes other than for necessary trips such as shopping, lest pumps malfunctioned or weather conditions changed and caused flooding. In my own case in 2021, we went to Roscommon town only to find that on our return, in the space of less than three hours, due to a moderate increase in wind speed that resulted in increased waves, the waters had overrun the road and we could not access our home with our groceries. Thankfully, we never required the services of an ambulance or emergency services.

At this point, I wish to acknowledge the efforts made by Roscommon County Council at all times to assist the community in whatever way it could. I could continue to relay many stories of people who were distraught by reason of the impact on them. However, in deference to the people involved, I do not wish to go into any detail. Please let me assure the committee that I have heard and seen some harrowing evidence of the mental and psychological trauma endured. With the onset of winter and the flood levels already rising again even as we speak, the distress and anxiety continues for the community. We are continually at the mercy of the weather. One home has gone with the solution already two thirds complete. Are we to endure the loss of further homes?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I will let the four Roscommon representatives speak, if that is okay with Deputy Carthy. Senator Dolan said she has to go to the Seanad, so I will let her go first.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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If that is okay with other members, I appreciate it. I can come back in 6.15 p.m. as well. I thank Councillor Fallon, Ms Murray and Mr. Kearney. This group has been active over the past number of years and it has just been highly traumatic. A public meeting was held earlier this year and hundreds attended. It showed the impact on communities all across Rahara, Ballagh and Lisfelim. Many communities are under threat with this and families have just been pulled apart, as Mr. Kearney also noted.

Many public representatives were at that public meeting, at which we listened. Action is what the committee here wants to see. It was good that we were able to hold a meeting last July with the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donovan. There is a further progress update the Minister of State has committed to on 10 November. I look forward to being able to hear the updates with our other public representatives here and the witnesses.

From my understanding, there is engagement between OPW officials and Roscommon County Council on the ground regarding the current activities there. The community at large is obviously seeing the rising water levels at the moment. Can Councillor Fallon give any detail on the rising water levels at present, perhaps over the past week or so?

Mr. Kearney is a farmer and this is the agriculture committee. The destruction of land and the destruction and loss of farming supports has been absolutely devastating. What would farmers in his area say if they were here and if Mr. Kearney was their representative?

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I thank the Senator for her contribution. On her direct question about the rise in the waters, perhaps for the benefit of those who are not that close to the lake, I might give what I would call the base level of the lake as it should be at the month of October. Normally, it would be 63.5 m above sea level on an Ordnance Survey map. In 2016, it was 66.8 m, in 2017 it was 65.7 m, in 2018 was 65.75 m, in 2019 it was 66 m , in 2020 it was 67 m, in 2021 it was 67 m and in 2022 it was 66 m. The bottom line is that the turlough has never emptied and is now on balance 3 m higher going into each winter than it should have been before 2015. Just to give the Senator a measure of how fast it can change, the turlough has the capacity to go down at about 3 in. or 75 mm a week in very dry weather but in the last week, it has risen by 100 mm. It can rise much faster than it goes down. It is very worrying that it is rising just now at the rate it is rising, because land is waterlogged across our part of the country as well.

I will make the point that this is as serious from an environmental point of view as it is from economic and family hardship points of view. Everything in the lake is dead; nothing is alive. To give an example of how serious the death of the lake it is, there were 200 acres of reed beds, which are most sturdy and hard and hard-killed. They all have died because of the permanent water in the lake, which is not allowing anything to happen. All birds have left, including whooper swans. We had a lovely flock of eaglets that came about ten years ago. They rested in the trees on the islands. The islands are flooded, the trees dead and they have left as well.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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It is no longer a functioning special area of conservation, SAC.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

It is not. It is absolutely not a functioning SAC now because even taking one of the designations it had, for example, there was a percentage of rare plants that grew around the perimeter of the turlough and they were designated as being extremely important and one of the main reasons it was so designated. They cannot be flourishing now because where they were growing is under 2 m of water.

We want to register our disappointment at the lack of any support coming from those who were protecting the SAC before this. They have done no assessment on the damage done. They were the people who were in charge of ensuring that we, as farmers, looked after the turlough and the SAC. They were there as the representatives of the Government and as the representatives of the EU, who designated it as an SAC. Since the flood came, they have disappeared. I would think it is at least accepted that the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, should have done a study to see what is in the lake seven years after the first crisis developed. It has not done that and it is an abdication of responsibility. If the EU was to see what has happened to our turlough, it would immediately question whether we have the equivalent of another Derrybrien or not.

Mr. Kearney gave the Senator information about how we are penalised as farmers, rightly so, because we overstated the land we had due to the flooding. We took advice from the National Parks and Wildlife Service as to what we should do to maintain the SAC. As soon as the problem because one that was not ours, it disappeared. It is a disappointment.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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As the councillor said, landowners in the area are custodians of that land for future generations. Currently, it is not a functioning SAC, although seen as a turlough.

I wish to bring in Ms Murray and Mr. Kearney as well. In that regard, in response to a Commencement matter that was raised in these Houses, the NPWS stated that it is currently a turlough according to its official reviews. However, there has been no assessment done of the current impact with the flood zone. How do we restore this to a functioning SAC, restore the farmland and protect the homesteads in that area as well? Does Ms Murray have any other comments to make on that?

Ms Geraldine Murray:

The most obvious way of restoring it to an SAC again is to bring the water levels down a little bit. It is the extreme high water level that has destroyed all the flora and fauna and all of that. If the solution is there and the pipe is two thirds of the way towards fruition, if I could put like that, we need to start ensuring that the pipe is activated as soon as possible to take the excess water off Lough Funshinagh and thereby allow the birds perhaps to come back or the fauna and stuff like that to grow. That is the main thing.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kearney have any other comments to add on the farming perspective?

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

The farmers and my neighbours and friends around the lough are in awe of the possibility that as one home has gone this summer, more homes are likely to go. A job is two thirds complete and it is just at a standstill. Apart from the damage to the environment and everything, there is sheer pressure on those people now, myself included, from now until the end of March. You spend your time watching the weather forecast.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Sleepless nights.

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

You spend your time looking out the window when it comes to a certain level. What way is the wind? How strong is it? What direction will it come from? You are totally, as I said at the end of my opening remarks, at the mercy of the weather. It is no circumstance in which to live.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses again for coming before us today. We need to get further updates from OPW and all stakeholders involved. It is crucial that we come to a solution that is planned for the time ahead. I look forward to hearing those updates with everyone, come 10 November. I thank the Chair for his generosity in letting me start the session.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I will only take a few minutes then will let other people in. We know the story. I sincerely thank the witnesses. Both the Chairman and I have discussed this numerous times in our offices. I acknowledge Deputy Kerrane for speaking to me and ringing me about it on numerous occasions. Deputy Fitzmaurice, who is on this committee, while I am not, has raised it on numerous occasions, as has Deputy Naughten. I acknowledge the support of Senator Boyhan in the Seanad. He is a Dublin-based man but he is very much involved in the agricultural scene. He has always supported this in the Seanad.

We do not need more reports. We need action. It is frightening when one realises that, six or seven years ago, many houses were 2 km from the floods and now the floods are 200 m or 300 m away. I pride myself on horticulture. Every bit of flora and fauna in the region has been destroyed, including bird life and tree life. Even fish have washed up onto the grassland and died, as Councillor Fallon knows, because of the excessive levels of water. It is really important for a clear statement to come from this forum. This is not environmental change in Lough Funshinagh and Rahara. It is a problem with a blockage in the system. I am getting a bit annoyed with some people nationally saying this is to do with environmental change. We all know there are environmental issues and change, but that is not why people in Rahara are suffering so badly.

I have a few questions. I do not care who answers them. We know that one house is gone. The level of sadness and upset among the community has been extraordinary to watch. In the witnesses' opinion, if the water keeps rising, how many more houses will be seriously threatened in the coming weeks and months?

We have to look at a compensation package because payments have been cut back due to flooding. Has the committee talked to the Department about getting involved in the hardship scheme, for example?

Mr. Kearney talked about having cut back his herd already. He is cutting back further the herd he has been looking after for years. Will that be a real challenge for him if this is not solved in the short term?

The Government has made commitments to provide money but we have no plan. You cannot eat dinner if there is no knife or fork to eat it with. Talking about having the money there and how it will be financed is no good when we do not have a plan. I know it is up to us and the Department. I do not think the Parks and Wildlife Service and others have done enough in this regard. The witnesses are right in saying they will have to step up to the mark further, as we will have to as well.

Will the witnesses answer those questions? I will not come back in for now. I thank the Chair for ensuring this is in front of us.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I will let Mr. Kearney deal with the compensation issue. Regarding how many houses will or will not be affected, we have to understand this is a basin of water surrounded by hills. It is quite high up, about 32 ft above the level of the Shannon. It is not low ground, but high ground surrounded by hills. The only way this lake can ever rectify itself without a pipe being put in, if we continue to get the predicted rainfalls, is that it will eventually double in size and eventually flow into the Shannon itself, but by then it could have consumed up to ten houses and seven farmyards. There is no natural way out other than through the swallow holes, which do not have the capacity. The pipe is 70% ready. All we are asking is for a small quantity of water to be removed to reduce the level of the lake to the Ordnance Survey Ireland line of 66 mOD. After that, we are convinced that the turlough will rectify itself except on very rare occasions when the flood rises. The turlough has got out of kilter. It is like trying to fill the bath with the same amount of water every day, but it is half full when starting. It will simply overflow. There is no other way to describe it.

Our problem is that the legal system is so stacked against us that we cannot address this. Our county council went to the OPW, using the Local Authority (Works) Act 1949. It is on the Statute Book and has been amended to refer the habitats directive, Directive 92/42/EEC, yet when it went to the courts, it was found to be null and void. The same issue arose when it tried to use emergency powers. Families were using pumps to keep the water away from them. If the pumps stopped for two hours, there would be 3 ft of water in their houses. The judge, who I have no issue with because I am sure judges are always right, said this is not an emergency under EU law. We appear to have two laws, one from the EU and one from Ireland. The laws to protect the special areas of conservation, SAC, are stopping us from doing what is right for the SAC. Individual rights are gone. There seems to be no way around it at this stage. Everybody needs to come together to find a solution to this issue. This is not just about Lough Funshinagh. There will be another issue and another issue.

The bottom line is our legal system has become vague because of the transposition of EU legislation. When it is vague and unclear, the simplest thing for people in the legal profession to do is to say "no", because it is too risky to say anything else. We are suffering because of the lack of clarity in the Local Authority (Works) Act 1949 or the emergency powers legislation that came much later. That has failed us twice despite that we thought, in good faith, we were doing the right thing because we were using Irish legislation. Mr. Kearney might address farmer compensation.

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

No effort, or very little, has been made by anybody on the committee to seek compensation. The people and the committee representing them want to be left alone. They want to solve the problem. There is nobody looking to take the money and run. People want to live in their community, to continue with their traditional farming methods, and to live in the way they were living. We had a very traditional community, as it had been for the past 100 years. Compensation is not a major issue. People want to continue living in peace in their homes and on their farms and with access to their homes. That is the main desire of the people.

Ms Geraldine Murray:

Without repeating what Mr. Kearney said, my focus has always been on the concept of relocating. The communities of Balla and Rahara have no interest in relocating. They want to stay in the communities. My family has been in that community for 200 years, going back generations, as have many more families. They want their houses to be secured. It is a human right to have a home. We have homes. There is a solution to maintain those homes but it has not been activated and there is no talk of activating it because of all the blockages Mr. Fallon and Mr. Kearney alluded to with judges and the law, which wins out in the end. That is the main thing I would like to say.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses. I will not repeat everything again. We all know it. There are probably many eyes from people with different interests watching this today. It is to be noted, and Mr. Kearney might comment on this, that the proposed pipe will keep the levels at normal winter levels. It will not drain the turlough. It needs to be made clear at this meeting that people are reasonable. I have said many times that there should be two different levels to select for summer and winter. In fairness to the people, they have agreed that the normal winter level would suffice to protect their houses.

How much land does Mr. Kearney estimate he would get back if the level was at a normal winter level? Mr. Fallon might also address that. I saw Ms Murray's email about an upcoming meeting on 10 November to provide an update.

If I can, I suggest the committee today propose that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine would engage with the OPW. The Minister was bringing the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Roscommon County Council together, and this committee fully endorses that, but I suggest we would propose and second, if someone does it-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will second it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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-----that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine would engage with the OPW in helping them in the resolution. There is a simple resolution to this and that is to finish the job that is two thirds done.

In regard to the turlough, I have spoken to people in the National Parks and Wildlife Service and, I will be honest and I have said this before, if you are to go through the procedure, it is about a four-year process between all the rigmarole you have to go through. I hope this situation under discussion will be resolved long before that, barring, to be blunt about it, and we have to be honest as politicians, some of these self-interest parties that have no clue and that do not live in those areas deciding to keep going to the courts. That is a risk. There is no point in saying it is not.

The other question relates to the lands that farmers have lost. Mr. Kearney said he is not interested in being looked at in this respect, but if someone is affected by something, then no more than in Shass Mountain in Leitrim where there was a bog slide, there is a force majeuremeasure to help the farming community. Perhaps the witnesses could engage with us on the committee on that with respect to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is a sad story to hear of someone who has 12 cows, which is not a great many cows, to be honest, and it is the average farm in the west of Ireland, having to go down to four cows. It was not their fault. It was what happened with the situation there.

Pumps were taken away recently but our understanding, having talked to the OPW, and I am sure the other Deputies and Senators have talked to the OPW, is that it is going to be on standby. If there is a problem, it is willing to help. However, we as a committee have to be honest. While everyone will be talking to all the different bodies and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine needs to get involved, at the end of the day it will involve the OPW and Roscommon County Council through the system they have to go through. As Councillor Fallon has pointed out quite rightly, it will happen in other places. It happened last week in Connemara where Galway County Council was once again stopped through the same rigmarole and BS that goes on in blocking jobs from being done where more problems are happening. We have seen the housing situation. We are hearing every day in this forum that everyone has the right to housing. These people have their houses and they are being driven out of them, to be quite blunt about it. That is a damnable situation when you have your own house that you have paid for. I will not harp on.

Will the Chair accept the proposal that this committee do as I suggested? It is important there is engagement between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the OPW. We need all the bodies going together to ensure this pipe is finished. A few weeks will finish this pipe. I have said at the meetings that while they have to go through the different hoops and loops and stuff to make sure, what the people in that area need is to see action phase by phase. There are a few phases to go through. In fairness they were promised a meeting in three months when they were last before the committee.

Ms Geraldine Murray:

It is happening.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That will happen now and that is good. We will need certain updates that it is moving forward. It cannot stand still. It has to be driven on.

One important point is that this is not just about Lough Funshinagh. This is about any part of the country, and we see it in Cork, Dublin and Connemara. In any part of the country where this crops up again, we cannot wait six or seven years to solve it. Today’s witnesses will be the test case in resolving this. In fairness to every politician, regardless of politics, because this is bigger than politics, every politician will help in any way to help it succeed.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I presume there is no objection to accepting Deputy Fitzmaurice's proposal. Senator Boyhan seconded it. Did Deputy Fitzmaurice ask a question?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If the turlough came down to the normal level, how much of the land would be left? Will the witnesses think about the force majeureprovision?

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

In my case, if the solution were completed to bring the turlough back to the highest point of its normal level, and that is all it would do-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is the winter level.

Mr. Tommy Kearney:

-----the high winter level - I would expect to have about 30 acres restored to me for eight to ten months of each year, depending on the weather. The difficulty is that 30 acres has been covered with water for the past five, six or seven years. It would take it some time to recover, but you must start someplace.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I thank the Deputy for his comments. We have had a lot of bad news given out today. We have to appreciate the work done by the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, and by the OPW in trying to do their best to find a solution, working with Roscommon County Council. Pumps have been taken out but they will be restored and they are running on standby close by. It is extraordinary how everybody from the Taoiseach down is supporting the concept of getting a solution to this except for the courts. It surprises many people that something cannot be done, even when the entire Oireachtas is on your side as well as everybody else. I record our appreciation for the work already done by the OPW in particular. We need to get the National Parks and Wildlife Service involved because this is a huge environmental issue as well.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me the opportunity to come in. It is very clear there is a huge human impact in this regard in terms of homeowners, farmers and agricultural practice. We have heard that in the evidence here today. I wish to pick up on something at the end of the presentation given by Ms Murray and the comment Councillor Fallon made. On her very last slide, in the top right-hand corner of the photograph, looking at the gable of the house, the biodiversity impact of this can be seen in terms of what used to be trees at the back of that particular house. The biodiversity in that area has been completely wiped out as a result of this. What the community is looking for is that the turlough would go back to its normal natural winter flood level, nothing more and nothing less.

The big question is where we go from here. We need to see action on foot of this presentation. Roscommon County Council set out the situation very clearly last May and the steps that needed to be taken. It wrote directly to the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donovan, who has taken the matter up with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, because he stated that many of the policy and legislative matters are the responsibility of that Department. Earlier this month I raised this issue with the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donovan, through a parliamentary question. He said he is still waiting for engagement from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on it. On 13 October, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, came back and said the Department was liaising with the OPW but there was no question of legislative change. That did not arise in this regard. Therefore we are back to this game of tennis. The OPW is referring it to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which in turn is referring it back to the OPW. In the meantime the water is getting closer and closer to the families and farms involved. We need to progress this and move it on.

Deputy Fitzmaurice and I and five other colleagues have signed a motion that we have laid before the Dáil. It seeks the establishment of a cross-departmental, cross-agency task force to address the emergency climate adaptation measures to protect homes across this country. It is this community we are talking about today, but we already saw last week in Galway, Cork and locations here in Dublin that this issue is going to arrive at someone else's door again and we must get ahead of it. In fairness, when I put this specific proposal to the Taoiseach today in the House, he committed to examining it and to engaging with the Ministers in this regard.

What we need now is a recommendation from this committee to establish a national task force to take on this role and to set as the first item on its agenda using the community around Lough Funshinagh as the test case in this context. The progress we make concerning this issue can then be replicated in every other community around the country. I am asking, therefore, this committee to take on board the motion on flooding risks at Lough Funshinagh, which is on the Dáil Order Paper, adopt it and lay it before both Houses. Both Houses could then progress this measure through engagement with both Ministers. I say this because unless we have a co-ordinated approach on this matter, we will be passing it back and forth, as has been the case up to now. I hope I can get a seconder and the support of the committee for my proposal.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Has the secretariat taken note of it?

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will forward the wording to the secretariat.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I presume there is no objection to this proposal from anyone.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I second it.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call the other representative from the constituency, Deputy Kerrane.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief. Mr. Kearney put it better than any of us could when he said people just want to live in their homes. This is really the top and the bottom of the issue. It is a small ask in this day and age, but, unfortunately, this is the request. This is all that is being looked for. All of us local representatives have been on the ground at Lough Funshinagh. It is important to again record that the area has been completely destroyed. The trees look like they have been burnt alive. The whole area has been destroyed. This is what is there and this is what is left. We are now coming into another winter and this issue has gone on for far too long.

It has been said many times today that the only solution is to reduce the water levels. This is the only solution and this is where we must get to from now to then. We must get to that point as fast as possible. The NPWS has been adamant, certainly in replies we have received in respect of questions we have put to it through the Oireachtas and the European Commission, that it has engaged. It is important for it to be put on the record what engagement the NPWS has had with the community and with the people living in the area specifically.

Equally, when the Minister of State came before county council members, and it was several months ago that he spoke in the chamber of Roscommon County Council, he was adamant at that point that this would have to be a cross-departmental response, that there would have to be engagement and that there was a role for almost every Department. What Deputy Naughten just said about the level of engagement, therefore, is worrying. It does not seem to be where it needs to be. We must see movement on this aspect.

It has been said that the people living in the area are not interested in compensation. I can understand that because it is their home and where they live. People have lived there for generations. They should not have to go. This is the point. Nobody should have to go. Regarding the supports given, however, in the context of this being the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, have supports been provided to farmers by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Have any financial supports been provided? Turning to the Department of Social Protection, has it provided any supports? I refer to aspects such as damage caused to houses up to now or whatever such funding might be needed for. Have financial supports been provided by either Department?

I am not a member of this committee, but I am here today because typically, in many cases, all politicians do not agree. In our constituency, however, there is support and we are standing with the witnesses. I wish this issue could be solved, that we could do more and that this could have been solved yesterday. I reiterate that the witnesses have our full support. I hope we can arrive at a solution and that we do not see a recurrence of what we have seen happening for years. I hope this problem is solved once and for all. It will only be solved by reducing the water levels, continuing the work that has been started and getting this done. We must put people before anything else. They are number one and we must put people first.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Kerrane. I call Mr. Fallon.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I thank the Chair and Deputy Kerrane. Earlier, I thanked the people from the constituency for their work. I also thank Deputy Kerrane for her work, because she has been available at all times. We appreciate this greatly. The Deputy asked a question about an engagement with the NPWS. There may have been engagement, but that consisted of a visit and a look at what was there. There was no disagreement regarding the damage done. I had occasion to meet some of the people involved at the National Ploughing Championships recently. I got a clear view. A perspective will be arrived at when a report is received from somebody else. My clear view is that the NPWS should be assessing the damages that have been done now. Equally, as the custodians and policers of the SAC on behalf of the EU, it should be proposing a solution to restore the SAC. It is fine to say it will be dedesignated, and this may be something that will happen down the road. Most people around the turlough, however, do not necessarily want it to be dedesignated. We want it to be restored. The engagement, therefore, has been very minimal and there needs to be much more.

The only financial supports we have received, and we appreciate them greatly, was in the context of having our roads raised and having unlimited access to pumps to keep water out of houses. Other than that, though, there has been no funding. Farmers have faced a significant cost in the loss of single farm payments. As far as I am aware, and as a farmer who has lost some payments, we are being treated the same as every other single farm payment applicant. If a mistake is found, then we pay the price. The mistake we have is that the turlough has not receded to a level low enough to allow us to have the land available.

To clarify one point, at no stage have we any desire to lower the level of the lake below its natural high level. I will go one step further and say that the pipe that we planned to install was never going to have the capacity to lower the lake below the perimeter of the SAC. The lake is now much bigger than the SAC because it has expanded onto the farmland around it. Our pipe was not going to affect the SAC in any way because it was only, at best, going to lower the water level to that of the perimeter boundary of the SAC. Everything that happened after that would be the natural flow.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We made a conscious decision at the start that we were going to devote this session to the Oireachtas members from County Roscommon. I will now allow the other members here one minute to make their points, in the interests of fairness. It will, however, be only one minute because we have two more sessions this evening. I call Deputy Martin Browne.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I missed the start of this session. I apologise. I was at another meeting. I reiterate what has been said regarding all the members of the committee standing fully behind the members from County Roscommon. I cannot see any issue or anything that anyone would object to concerning what has been said since I came into the room. On my behalf and that of my party, we are fully behind what has been said.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the time pressures we are under, but this is an issue the committee will have to return to. It has wide implications. The members will be aware that I have raised this issue and used the Lough Funshinagh farmers as an example. This is precisely the type of situation for which the force majeureprovision is included in the Common Agricultural Policy. To me, it is an absolute scandal that farmers have been penalised because of an act of nature, or whatever we might want to call it, beyond their control. We should be repeating our call for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, to intervene and to restore all the payments lost in respect of this situation.

The second issue I wish to raise is that this issue, if it were to be replicated in other instances, has the potential to undermine the entire designation system at an EU level. What we have here a designation of an SAC which was put in place to protect the environment and biodiversity and to support communities to protect biodiversity and the environment in their areas.

This designation is now ensuring the very act of trying to save people's homes is challengeable in the courts to such a point that everybody loses, that is, the communities lose, the local economy and wider society lose and the environment loses. The environment has lost in this area.

I understand an environmental impact statement is due to take place in the spring of next year. It cannot take place before that for some reason. Maybe Councillor Fallon or someone else can elaborate on that. It is crucial the authorities are prepared and that we have confidence that each of them, be it the local authority, the OPW or the Department, are equipped and have the capacity to deal with the steps it has been decided they need to get through.

I regret local residents have had to come before an Oireachtas committee. The local residents and community are the people who have suffered as a result of this but they were in no way at fault. The reason we have local authorities, the OPW and Departments is to ensure people themselves do not have to come before the Oireachtas or anywhere else to make a case to save their homes, livelihoods and lands. This is deeply regrettable and I hope lessons are being learned across the board.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I will let our guests answer the questions at the end because I want to get through the Members of the Houses. Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is next. Time is tight now.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I sympathise with our guests sincerely. Even though I am from Kerry and we are far away from Roscommon I feel for the residents. I have listened to all the different things that happened along the way. I cannot understand how people, who I will not give the benefit of naming, could impede or stop residents from protecting their homes or their property. I cannot understand why people would be so bad as to deny the residents that right. I was brought up to think your home is your castle, your property is yours and no-one else's and that no-one should interfere with you. I always thought there was a law of natural justice that would allow you to protect your home. I was brought up with that idea firmly imprinted in my head.

I appreciate all the work of the local authority, the county manager and all the elected representatives have done. They are doing their best. I can be relied on in any vote in the House on this matter. I will give any support I can. I can understand what would sort this out because I have been involved in this kind of drainage work since I was a young fellow. I know what it would take and how long it would take to finish this.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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My sentiments are with the residents. It is sad our guests had to come up here to this Oireachtas committee to make a presentation when it is only natural justice they are asking for. I am sure the grants that have been lost out on can be got back but the most important thing to see would be residents getting back into their homes, that they are safe and sound in them and that their properties are restored to them.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Joe O'Reilly is next.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity. I welcome Councillor Fallon and his colleagues. I salute the work he has been doing on this for a long time. He knows I have a lot of family in the area and more than a passing interest. I have met him there and met the original family who were flooded. I was down at their house and have been at a number of them. I know a lot about this.

The farmers should be compensated for their payments. It is a strange thing that an alleged effort to save biodiversity is actually damaging it. It is quite bizarre. I will not repeat the recommendations for the sake of time but the four points for the council should be dealt with. It is shocking people are out of their homes. There should be real intervention by the Government here. There should be support, financial, practical and moral, for all the residents. The pump should go ahead. Action should happen on this immediately.

I am here only to indicate support and I appreciate the opportunity to do so. I salute what our guests are doing. For what it is worth, I will do anything I can to assist within the Seanad and that is the case with Senators Murphy and Dolan also. I of course support the proposals of the various speakers earlier. I thank the Chair.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Councillor Fallon to sum up and respond to Deputy Carthy's question as well.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I first thank Senator Joe O'Reilly. He has a special interest in the area. Whether he wants me to say this or not I will; his aunt in-law's house was the first that was demolished. I also thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae for his contribution.

Deputy Carthy raised a most important question, namely, are we confident the authorities can do the job. It is the greatest challenge we have. I speak now maybe as much as a county councillor as a farmer in the area. The council was very confident it could do the job 12 months ago. That is why it started the work. It was an emergency and a crisis. We have the Article 49 legislation, we had the chief executive's emergency powers and we were confident we could do it. I am not as confident now as I was then because our legislation can be called into question so easily. There were a couple of things that caused that to happen. The first was there has not been enough assessment of the Irish legislation with respect to how it has been impacted by European legislation. The second and probably more alarming point is we have a court system that allows people from any part of Ireland to take an action against a local authority for the work it is doing and because of the way costs are set, it will cost them very little. Every time the council loses its case it pays its own costs and those of the parties taking the action. Every time it wins its case it does not get its compensation because it is deemed the smaller party does not have the capacity to pay. It is allowing people to create an industry out of going to court and that is why things are not happening here.

I thank the committee for having us. Deputy Carthy mentioned the assessment being done. Very little work has started on that assessment. On 24 May the council wrote to the authorities seeking immediate action. We only got a cover letter back then saying they are looking into this. We as a group are concerned the pace is too slow and that the weather will catch up with us and we will lose more houses. I appeal to all present to ensure we have a team effort using all the Departments involved, the local authority, the OPW and the NPWS to do the full environmental assessment as quickly as possible and proceed with replacing the pipe. This is not a significant engineering feat. It is the simplest job we could do. It is a matter of digging a hole and putting in a pipe with a sluice gate on it that will not affect the natural high level of the turlough. For that reason it should not be impossible but because of legal challenge and maybe the lack of a co-ordinated approach we have not made the progress we deserve and time is not on our side.

I am not sure if any other members of the group want to say anything else.

Ms Geraldine Murray:

No, Mr. Fallon has wrapped it up.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, I wish to clarify something. It will only take 30 seconds. I will not hold the committee up.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Go ahead.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Lest it be misconstrued in any way, when I spoke about compensation it was not about relocation or people getting compensation for their land. I was referring to the farm payments that have been lost, that is all. I thank the Chairman.

Mr. Laurence Fallon:

I had not mentioned that point but the Senator is quite right. We do not want relocation but it is a double whammy to be losing your land and your payment as well. It is a hardship situation and if a solution can be found for that, farmers would find it very helpful in difficult times in agriculture.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our guests for coming in. They presented their case exceptionally well. Proposals were made by two members of the committee that were seconded and endorsed. Fundamental points have been made because it is Lough Funshinagh today and could be somewhere else tomorrow.

The idea someone can challenge remedial works like this that are essential to avoid flooding of family homes and farmyards really beggars belief. As for the fact people cannot claim their single farm payment, surely, as someone said there, force majeure should apply. I give a commitment as Chairman of this committee that we will take on board what our guests have said today and the proposals made by various members of the committee. We will try to keep on the maximum political pressure to try to get our guests a just result. They are entitled to that as citizens of this country. They are entitled to live in their own homes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Chair, it is a secondary point but can we agree to write to the Minister, Deputy McConalogue in respect of force majeurefor the CAP payments?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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He will be meeting the residents shortly and we will bring that up.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Most definitely.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The committee can write if it wants to.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We will be having a private meeting early next week as soon as the clerk is back in harness because we have the horticulture industry that we got correspondence on today and it must be dealt with. We will make our best endeavours to ensure our guests get a just result. As I said, it is a fundamental right of Irish citizens to be able to live in their own home. We would be neglectful of our responsibilities here if we did not do our best to help those affected. I thank our guests.