Dr. Se?n Healy:

I absolutely remember discussions that Deputy Durkan and I had 25 years ago and even more when we talked about housing. It was one of the most serious issues for us. The first time we negotiated a national agreement was in 1996 or 1997. Of all the social partners in that particular process, our organisation, not the pillar but just our organisation was the only one of all of them that considered housing to be an issue that was coming down the line. To the extent that I remember, Bertie Ahern who was not yet in office but was heading in that direction, sent his chef de cabinetto give them some kind of briefing on the reason we were maintaining this position. Anyway, we did not do what we needed to do at that time and as a result, we are where we are today.

There are many things I could say but it is important to recognise that it is not a question of either-or. We must protect the country's future. We must provide for the infrastructure. For example, a dozen years ago our organisation produced a briefing on infrastructure. I remember having an almost two-hours long discussion with the Secretary General at the Department of Finance at the time and pointing out to him that we had the lowest level of infrastructure investment in all of the European Union but that was not what worried me. What worried me was that if we doubled our level of investment, we would still have the lowest level of infrastructure investment in all of the European Union. The point I am making is that on one side, we have argued consistently for infrastructural investment and we will continue to do so. However it is not a question of doing that and doing things for the future or looking after the poorest and most vulnerable. We can do both-and. The choices that were made left the poorest and most vulnerable, the people on core welfare rates and those on low pay in a situation where they would be worse off in 2023 than they had been in 2022. That is a disgrace, given the levels of new expenditure that were spent in the budget. It can be rectified. We are very clear about what needs to be done. We have said that. It should start by raising the core welfare rate by €20 a week instead of €12 a week.