Mr. Stephen Mulvany:

It is difficult to generalise. The most important thing to say is that we rely on and hugely value the service provided by section 38s and section 39s. In some cases, we can and do learn from them. That is the first thing.

As I see it, there are two aspects to the relationship, in governance terms, with section 38s and section 39s. One is those organisations themselves and their internal governance, and whether that is appropriate. While we are not an innocent party in that, it is largely a matter for them and their boards. The other piece is the management of our relationship with those section 38 and section 39 organisations, which gets much more difficult when we get to the bigger volumes of section 39s, remembering that we fund more than 2,000 organisations. We recognise that we had a problem and we still have elements we are working on. We have nine community healthcare organisations, CHOs, around the country and have established what we call contract management support units in each of those nine organisations. Most of them are now fully staffed and up and running. Their job is to assist local management to be able to keep on track of that relationship management with the organisations.