Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19 and members who participate remotely need to do so only from within the Leinster House complex. I have received no apologies today.

Our engagement is with the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Leo Varadkar, regarding an update on quarters 1 and 2 and matters relating to the Department. The Department is responsible for advising and implementing the Government's policies that relate to developing the productive capacity of the economy and fostering an environment that provides for employment and job creation and sustainability. The Department is also engaged in developing policies that enable fair competition in the marketplace, protect consumers and safeguard workers.

Today, I am pleased that we have the opportunity to consider these matters further with the Minister. I also welcome Mr. John Newham, assistant secretary, Ms Tara Coogan, principal officer and Ms Jill Colquhoun, assistant principal, from the Department.

Before we start I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses and members may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant both to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statement from the Minister has been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite him to make his opening statement.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for the invitation to update the committee on the Department's work so far this year and what we have planned for the remainder of it. As he mentioned, I am joined by Mr. John Newham, who is in charge of commerce, consumer and competition law; Ms Tara Coogan, who is responsible for industrial relations and workplace relations; and Ms Jill Colquhoun, who is here from the intellectual property side.

Last week was my third budget as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Over the past two years, we have experienced many ups and downs. From Brexit to Covid restrictions, the war in Ukraine and soaring inflation, it is fair to say that we live in interesting times. The Government has not gotten everything right all the time but we have always sought to protect lives and livelihoods as best we can, and protect jobs and businesses for that reason.

In the round, budget 2023 was about putting money in people's pockets, with specific measures for the most vulnerable and the squeezed middle.

Many businesses around the country are worried heading into the winter. Energy and other input costs are rising. Interest rates are rising too and consumer confidence is waning. The Government has to intervene again, just as we did during the pandemic, to support viable jobs and businesses and, therefore, we have announced five measures in the budget to help with energy costs and sustainability. The first of these is the temporary business energy support scheme, T-BESS. That will provide qualifying businesses, which will be almost all businesses, with relief on 40% of the increase in their electricity or gas bills up to a maximum of €10,000 per month per business unit.

The second is a €200 million targeted Ukraine enterprise crisis scheme to assist viable but vulnerable manufacturers and exporters.

One strand of the scheme will provide up to €2 million for energy-intensive companies. The third is a State-backed Ukraine credit guarantee scheme of up to €1.2 billion. That will assist the wider business sector with liquidity and will help to invest in energy efficiency. This will provide low-cost working capital to small businesses and primary producers like farmers and fishermen. The fourth is a €500 million growth and sustainability loan scheme, which is the successor to the future growth loan scheme. The growth and sustainability loan scheme will provide low-cost, long-term lending to SMEs. Finally, we are allocating €4 million in funding to the local enterprise offices, to include a new grant for micro-enterprises to implement energy efficiency measures, including solar panels, for example.

Turning to other priorities, we are developing a White Paper on enterprise policy which will be published before the end of the year. We have become a prosperous country not because of natural resources like oil, gas, diamonds or gold. Our success as a nation is based entirely on trading the goods and services we produce internationally, our attractiveness as a place to invest and our ability to enter into international free trade agreements, under the umbrella of the European Union, with other countries. I think some people take our economic success for granted. I think they believe that businesses will continue to expand and that employment will continue to rise, no matter what we do. They tend to focus on how we can divide up the cake differently or, in their view, more fairly. It rarely occurs to them that the cake can shrink, meaning less for everyone, or get bigger, meaning we have more to allocate. This is definitely not a time to rest on our laurels, in a rapidly changing world. We will not stay successful economically by standing still. We have to get ahead of the next wave and catch it. That is why the White Paper is so important.

I understand that businesses have been through a lot in the past three years and that many are focused just on surviving the next few months. However, the green and digital transitions are also existential threats and we have to help businesses to take notice and take action and help them along the way. We are already helping out with an €85 million multi-annual Grow Digital fund and a €55 million fund to help businesses move away from fossil fuels. There are more than 20 different energy efficiency schemes available to businesses, but take-up is not what it should be. We have work to ensure that the right incentives are in place and the right information is available to improve take-up by businesses.

In February we launched nine new regional enterprise plans. They will form an integral part of our overall enterprise policy and are aimed at strengthening the regional enterprise ecosystem to drive economic growth and to maintain better standards of living in all parts of the country. Up to €180 million will be made available to implement these plans. It is great to see that employment is growing so strongly now in every part of the country. The border area of Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Monaghan and Cavan has performed the strongest over the past two years, with employment there growing by 29%. The south east and the south west were the best performers last year. There are now 2.55 million people at work in Ireland, which is a record high, youth unemployment is close to a record low and female labour force participation is also at an all-time high. Both IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland had record jobs figures last year and their work, along with that of the local enterprise offices and InterTradeIreland, will be crucial to maintaining our momentum on employment.

Regarding housing, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has a crucial role in facilitating accelerated innovation within the construction sector and driving increased productivity. We have established a modern methods of construction group to help the transition from conventional to modern construction methods. We have made additional categories of construction workers eligible for general employment permits, and IDA Ireland is engaging with international construction companies to make them aware of the opportunities that now exist in the Irish market.

Apart from backing business, we are recognising the contribution of workers by introducing reforms to strengthen workers' terms and conditions. We are working to ensure that the pandemic leaves a legacy of a more inclusive and secure society, with full employment, good jobs and secure jobs, making work pay more and rewarding effort. Back in June I outlined proposals to introduce a living wage for all employees in Ireland. My Department is working through the results of the public consultation on this, and I intend to bring a memo to the Government later this month, seeking formal approval for the phase-in of a living wage and a timeline to do so. In addition to this work, the Government has accepted the recommendation of the Low Pay Commission to increase the national minimum wage to €11.30 an hour from 1 January, or €1,600 per year for a full-time worker. In addition, I have prioritised the enumeration of enhanced workers' rights, including a new public holiday, which will take place on St. Brigid's Day or Imbolc; statutory sick pay, which will come into effect in January; the Covid-19-related lay-off payment scheme, which is now up and running and administered by the Department of Social Protection and ensures that people who were laid off temporarily during the pandemic restrictions do not lose out on redundancy rights; the protection of workplace tips and gratuities, which we anticipate to be commenced in the coming weeks, certainly by 1 December; the right to request remote working Bill, which will be published later this quarter; and, as the committee will know, the introduction by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, of new flexible working laws as well as more affordable childcare.

As Deputies and Senators will be aware, employment permit applications have more than doubled since 2019. I am very pleased that the backlog in processing permit applications has now decreased from nearly 11,000 at its peak to around 2,000. Waiting times for all types of employment permit are now down to four weeks or less. That number should improve further due to the measures employed by the Department, which can now be continued into 2023 due to our increased budget allocation for staffing. The forthcoming employment permits Bill will also help. We are examining European proposals to bring together the employment permit process in our Department and the visa process in the Department of Justice.

To mention briefly some other legislation, the Competition (Amendment) Act 2022 was enacted earlier this year. It is landmark legislation and the biggest reform of competition law in decades. It will enhance the ability of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, to break up cartels, stop bid rigging and other anti-competitive practices and block anti-competitive mergers. The Consumer Rights Bill, which is being piloted by the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, will enter the Seanad in the coming weeks. It introduces new rights for consumers and will better protect them from misleading and unfair commercial practices. Crucially, it extends consumer rights to the digital area. The small companies administrative rescue process, SCARP, has been in place for less than a year. While take-up has been muted so far, I anticipate that many more companies will avail of it in the coming months. The feedback on the scheme so far has been very positive and its existence alone is an important factor when companies are in distress. The Screening of Third Country Transactions Bill completed Second Stage in the Dáil in September, and the control of exports Bill has been prioritised for publication this autumn. These Bills will strengthen Ireland's scrutiny of potentially harmful inward investments and the export of controlled goods to third countries. It will also ensure that Ireland retains our position as an attractive location for FDI and as an exporting economy.

I thank the committee and the Chairperson for facilitating a number of waivers of legislation from pre-legislative scrutiny. I know we have not always given the committee adequate notice, but I hope members can understand why. The past two and a half years have required us to adapt very quickly to unforeseen events, and this committee has played an important role in helping us to respond quickly to save thousands of businesses and jobs. I look forward to hearing members' views and answering any questions they may have.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Tánaiste. I now invite members to discuss these issues with the Tánaiste and his officials. Members may wish to indicate. If doing so remotely, they should use the raised hand function. More important, when finished speaking, they should take the hand down. We have a rota in place. The first person who has indicated is Deputy O'Reilly.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste and his team for being here. I have some questions, which I will get to in a moment, but I wish to refer first to an article by Ellen Coyne in the Irish Independenttoday that refers to an objection by the employers' group, IBEC, to the introduction of paid leave for victims and survivors of domestic abuse. The Tánaiste will be aware that I have legislation that would provide for ten days' leave. I understand that the Government is considering five days. There are somewhat mixed messages coming from the Government, given that the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has written to the universities advising them to follow the example of NUI Galway, which is ten days. The submission from IBEC, however, refers to concerns about the rights of those accused of domestic violence, querying if an employee could be in a particularly acrimonious relationship and intentionally seek to defame his or her partner. It also refers to the need to require proof.

I know the Tánaiste will remember that during the debate on the eighth amendment, we debated at length whether the State could provide access to terminations for women who had been raped. We agreed that was a good idea. However, we also agreed that we could not ask for proof. What is the Tánaiste's view on what IBEC is saying now? There is a dispute between what two Departments are saying, which is confusing. I would like if the Government and Oireachtas could unite behind my legislation, which I think is simple legislation. Notwithstanding that, the advocacy groups in this area have been absolutely clear that one cannot ask a victim or survivor of domestic abuse to give proof to his or her employer. What are victims supposed do? Are they to come in with a black eye? How do they prove coercive control? What is the Tánaiste's view on this? I understand it was not referred to in his submission. It is in the paper this morning, which is why I refer to it. It does not just exercise me. I understand it exercises many members of the Oireachtas. More than that, it is an issue for victims and survivors. I had a hearing about my legislation at the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We heard from Women's Aid. It was clear about the issue of proof. I did not hear any dissenting voices from the members of that committee about the need for proof.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have not seen that article, the objection from IBEC or whatever observations it has made. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is working on that legislation.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It falls under his remit rather than mine. I am inclined to agree with Deputy O'Reilly. I do not see how people could produce proof of abuse or, particularly, coercive control, which is quite hard to prove. One might do so in a court but an employer is not a court of law.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The leave is no use to people then.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is absolutely right. I am sure there will have to be some mechanism, as there is for any form of leave, whether it is sick leave, maternity benefit or paternity leave. I do not see how evidential proof could be a requirement of the legislation. That would make it almost unworkable.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It absolutely would. I thank the Tánaiste for his remarks in that regard. My legislation provides for a penalty for anyone who abuses it. I cannot see how someone would abuse leave of that nature. I cannot conceive of people who would walk into an employer and claim that to get time off. There are other ways to get time off work. I welcome the Tánaiste's comments in that regard. My legislation will be discussed in a committee on 18 October. I hope it will progress. I wish the Government would clear up the messages. On one hand, a Minister has referred to ten days and no requirement for proof in the university sector, while on the other hand, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, published legislation that provides for five days and possibly requires proof. We want to do right by victims. The best thing to do is to speak to them with one voice. I understand it was not in the Tánaiste's submission but it came up this morning and it exercises me.

I have a question about the delay in the introduction of statutory sick pay. It was due in the fourth quarter of this year and it has been put off to January. It has been described by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as a hammer blow to workers. Many of those workers will receive what ICTU has described as an inadequate rise in their minimum wage. When will the regulation orders for the statutory sick leave scheme be ready? I know the Tánaiste has not done this yet, but will he start an awareness campaign in the run-up to the scheme being introduced? There is little time left between now and January for the roll-out of a campaign that will be seen by workers and employers, in their workplaces rather than just at a high level, so that they understand what will happen in January.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Statutory sick pay will be a reality. It has been delayed by 12 weeks. I had hoped and intended to introduce it in October. I conferred and worked with officials over the summer to see if we could do that, but we ran into many issues, not least the fact that many things that interact with it, such as illness benefit, are annualised. From 1 January, people can claim three days of sick leave from their employer. That is how it works in the first year. On the fourth day, illness benefit kicks in. Starting it mid-year just did not work for many reasons. I was disappointed when I had to come to that conclusion, accepting my officials' advice. I did not accept it initially, but they turned out to be right. I had to accept it in the end because it would not have been workable. There is a delay of 12 weeks, which I regret, but it is happening and is a significant step forward for workers' rights in Ireland.

We have not yet made a decision on the awareness campaign. We have talked about it, so we may well do it. The same thing applies to the legislation on tips. We are keen to ensure that employees, particularly more vulnerable employees who do not have English as a first language and do not follow our media, are aware of these rights, because they are the people who are most likely to be denied these rights. I am sure the trade unions will do something similar. We will confer with the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, unions and employers about that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It would be good for the Migrant Rights Centre to be closely involved in this, given that it has direct access to those workers who would be most impacted. ICTU should also be involved in that regard. I have a question about the Tánaiste's opening statement. I am glad he is sitting down, because I agree with some of it. He said, "This is definitely not a time to rest on our laurels in a rapidly changing world." He also said that, as a State, "We have to get ahead of the next wave and catch it." I fully agree with that. The Tánaiste might remember that I tabled a parliamentary question this time last year regarding the development of a comprehensive cross-sectoral industrial strategy for the economy. I welcome the announcement regarding the White Paper. I ask the Tánaiste about his views on a story in the Irish Examiner recently, which stated:

Senior sources in the Department of Finance said the economy is now relying on data centres, spending on remote working by businesses, as well as investment by one or two major companies.

Does the Tánaiste agree with those remarks?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I did not see those remarks or the article. I am always loath to comment on an article that I have not read or comments I did not hear. If they are as the Deputy characterises them, I profoundly disagree. One of the strengths of our economy is that it is diversified. We are heavily dependent on about ten companies and about 10% of people who pay over a third of the tax in the country. When one adds in property tax, VAT, capital tax and excise, they probably pay more than that. It is important to be aware of that vulnerability and to protect ourselves against it, but also to look after it. When one has an asset like those great companies in our country and the amazingly skilled people who work for them, we should treat them well. It is important to do so because wealth, capital, skills, people and investment are footloose in our world. If we pursue the wrong policies, that could quickly turn on us and change overnight, and then the cake would get smaller. That is a matter of tax revenues, but there is more to the economy than tax revenues. I would never look at things just with regard to GDP or tax revenues. I look at employment, for example. Approximately 250,000 people are employed by foreign direct investment, FDI, companies and companies involved with IDA Ireland. Very few of them are employed in data centres, by the way. They are mostly in the tech, pharmaceutical and medical devices sectors. Almost as many people work in Enterprise Ireland client companies, which are domestic Irish companies that export. There is a public sector which is crucial to any economy of about 300,000 people. There is a tourism sector, agriculture, and small and medium enterprises. When one looks at the 2.5 million people working in our economy, it is quite diversified. We do not have all our eggs in one basket, which is a strength.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste. I was quite shocked when I read that article, particularly with regard to data centres, because as the Tánaiste rightly points out, they are not big employers. They are big energy consumers but not big employers, though I understand they are related to employment. In his opening statement, the Tánaiste said:

Our success as a nation is entirely based on trading the goods and services we produce internationally, our attractiveness as a place to invest and our ability to enter into international free trade agreements... with other countries.

I would add that non-exporting SMEs, microbusinesses and family businesses have also played and will continue to play a significant role in the economy. What are the Tánaiste's views on the establishment of an Irish enterprise agency to assist small and medium enterprises that are trading domestically? The Tánaiste will know this is a long-standing policy of Sinn Féin. IBEC recently backed a similar idea. We think this would be of tremendous benefit to our non-exporting small and medium-sized businesses, microbusinesses and the family business sector which do not fall under the remit of local enterprise offices, LEOs, Enterprise Ireland or IDA Ireland. They are a significant group and the State could do much to assist them.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am not against it. I do not think it is a bad idea.

My principle is when one makes decisions on policy one starts with what one wants to achieve and then decide whether one needs a new agency to do it. I am not saying the Deputy is responsible for this but there is a default position sometimes in Ireland that the solution to any problem is a new agency, task force or maybe a citizens' assembly. I tend to start with what the objectives we want to achieve are. We have identified a gap in helping a cohort of businesses and the way we have decided to deal with that, at least for now, is to expand the role of the local enterprise offices. They are really good and getting better at what they do. With the budget allocation they are going to expand their role to businesses that have more than ten employees and moving up closer to 20. The Deputy has already seen the way Enterprise Ireland has expanded its role in recent years and done so very successfully. However, if it does not work I would not have a closed mind to establishing something like a small business administration like the one in the US.

Sometimes this does not come across in media coverage but I point out there are fairness, competition and state aid rules. Often one will deal with a business, which could be a shop, a barber or a butcher, that feels it is not getting any support from Government and sometimes they are not. They are getting support on energy and got support during the pandemic but sometimes the reason they are not is that the business is in competition with another butcher or barber down the road and for the Government to back one disadvantages the other.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Whereas it is not like that with exports, so-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that and agree with what the Tánaiste says about the LEOs. However, it can be a bit hit and miss. Some of them perform better than others and the report back is better with some of them. Some consistency in that regard would be welcome. That is why we do not necessarily need a brand-new agency but one that would knit together and focus the work of the LEOs.

I raise family businesses. There are about 160,000 such businesses employing about 908,000 people, which is a huge amount. The Family Business Network, FBN, does not have a seat on the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, as yet. I hope one could be found for it. It is a really good space to provide discussion on areas of shared concern. I understand it is under the remit of the Taoiseach. I have asked the question several times via parliamentary question. I am also aware this might be the Tánaiste's last meeting with the committee. Given he is likely to be Taoiseach in the next number of weeks, does he have a view on whether or not the FBN could have a seat at the LEEF?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The FBN has a seat on the Enterprise Forum, which is run by my Department. I engage with the network regularly. Only yesterday its representatives attended our consultation on the enterprise policy and made some very good points on family businesses. On the LEEF, we have tried to keep it quite small. I think there are 20 or 30 organisations that have requested a seat on the LEEF. It becomes a different body if we expand it to a dozen or so organisations. At the moment it is very tight. It is the forum at which we have tripartite discussions involving ICTU as representative of the unions - as the individual unions are not on it - and IBEC representing business. Again, individual business groups are not on it, though Chambers Ireland is. Then there is the Government. That is the model. It is a tripartite model, which I am conscious the Deputy knows all about.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I am familiar with the partnership model.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It would be a different thing if it had 20 or 30 members.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but given we are talking about 160,000 workplaces and 908,000 workers there is compelling case for them not being a micro-group. I thank the Chair.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his time. The Minister of State, Deputy Donohoe, advised during his budget 2023 speech that the reduced VAT rate of 9% for hospitality would be removed at the end of February as scheduled. It will then return to 13.5%, as we all know. Currently, businesses have a significant number of costs due to inflation and energy bills. Despite the substantial supports outlined in budget 2023 it is a very challenging time for these businesses, especially SMEs such as restaurants, bars and the hospitality sector generally. I have spoken to may business owners in Galway city and county that say the VAT returning to 13.5% is a very significant worry and will really challenge their sustainability because it obviously makes products more expensive for customers during a cost-of-living crisis. I recognise the lower VAT rate results in reduced revenue for the State but we must take every measure possible to ensure the viability of businesses. What is the Tánaiste's view on this?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am a big fan of the 9% VAT rate. It was first introduced by the first Government I had the privilege to serve in, under Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan, and helped to reboot the tourism industry. However, it was only ever to be a temporary measure. I think it is €600 million per year in revenue lost to the State. That is a gross rather than a net figure and I appreciate if one factors in other things it might be less of a cost but we need to bear that in mind. The decision of the Government is to extend the 9% rate until the end of February. Members should bear in mind that preferential rate does not just apply to hospitality at the moment as it also applies to some personal services like hairdressing. Furthermore, it applies to electricity and gas. Not going back to 13.5% could be very expensive for the Exchequer. We will have to examine the situation a bit closer to then and see where we stand with respect to the state of the public finances and of the economy. The message to business is that the reduction is being extended to the end of February and they should operate on the assumption it will go back up to 13.5% on 1 March.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank the Tánaiste. He is kind of telling us that it is under review until February and we will take it from there, I hope.

I move to the welcome measure that is the temporary business energy support scheme. It is needed by all businesses. The Tánaiste has spoken of the requirement for it to receive EU clearance due to state aid rules, and the legislation obviously needs to be passed through both Houses. Will he advise what the timetable and the schedule looks like to ensure the first payments will be issued to businesses as soon as possible?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The timetable is to have it legislated for and up and running by the end of November. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, is doing the legislation, the Revenue Commissioners are going to do the administration and we will backdate it to September, so businesses can bank on that. We do not have state aid clearance yet. Under the state aid rules that are part of the temporary crisis framework it is only supposed to run until the end of the year and we want it to run at least until the end of February. The difference we are supposed to refund should only be 30% and we have stretched it to 40%. However, I met with Commissioner Vestager last week, as did the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I did not get any cast-iron commitments but we got a fair hearing and a good one. She indicated that temporary crisis framework would be extended well into 2023 and did not baulk at the idea we would go to 40% rather than 30%. It does not have state aid clearance yet and we are working on that.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. The Tánaiste will be aware the Commission downgraded the north-west region, which includes Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal and Monaghan, to a "lagging region" last week. It had previously been demoted from "developed" to "a region in transition" in 2019. One would hope the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, now in its first year, will make an impact across the region by enhancing educational capacity. The region will also receive additional funding but clearly this is still very concerning. I ask the Tánaiste to comment on the demotion and the greater Government focus that is required to address it.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We need to ensure we have investment and job creation in all regions of the country, including the west and north west. The Senator will know many of those analyses are based on GDP, which can be very distorting in Ireland. The presence of just one or two very large companies in Cork makes the south west one of the wealthiest regions in the State but is it really? The same thing can apply in Dublin, so it is often the case in Ireland.

As the Senator will be aware, the west of Ireland has the lowest unemployment rate in Ireland at the moment and we have seen a very big investment in Galway, in particular, in recent years. I absolutely agree that we need to invest more in the region, which includes the Atlantic Technological University, as mentioned by the Senator, the University of Galway, TUS and there must be investment in infrastructure. The Senator is a strong supporter of the Galway bypass, the outer or inner ring road or whatever it is called now. I, too, am a strong supporter of the project as it is a crucial for freeing up the city. We should never forget the value, for example, of Knock in County Mayo. We need to ensure that we invest, and national broadband is part of all and we have the regional enterprise plan, which we will fund.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his positive comments.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Tánaiste and his officials. I thank him for his very informative briefing.

I remember a time when the talk was always about job losses and company closures but now we have virtually full employment, which brings its own challenges. I want to ask the Tánaiste about the pressures that companies face and how there is increased talk of corporate insolvencies. What does he think about that and what are his projections?

I appreciate that there are 20 energy schemes available but I am conscious their uptake could be improved. Has the Tánaiste a strategy to improve uptake? Is it a case that companies do not know about the supports are available? It would be useful if he gave the committee a note on the 20 schemes that he mentioned so that we are informed. I would like to know what we can do to improve uptake.

It is interesting to note that the Temporary Business Energy Support Scheme, TBESS, grants relief on 40% of the increase in electricity or gas bills so that is €10,000 per month per business unit. Initially, it was not realised that the amount is per month and there was a cap of €10,000. We need to let people know that it is per month because I have heard media reports where people said that €10,000 was not going to do an awful lot for them. They did not realise that it is €10,000 per month as the Tánaiste has indicated here this morning, which is important to note.

I welcome the suggestion to merge employment permits and visas because it would reduce bureaucracy. I ask the Tánaiste to give a timeline for when that might happen and what stage of the process has been reached.

Last week, I proposed here that we would focus on the trade element of the Department's brief and all of my colleagues agreed that we would do that and take one country as a case study. We would focus on one country to see what agencies here are doing with respect to trade and consider the companies that trade from Ireland into that country and vice versa. I suggested that we start off by comparing Ireland with Canada because, and I am part of the friendship group with Canada, it is a fact that Canada has a lot in common with Ireland. Colleagues agreed with my suggestion for which I thank them and I hope that we will start that comparison from next year.

The next issue is the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA. Perhaps the Tánaiste can tell us what is happening with CETA and what he thinks will happen.

The corporate sustainable due diligence directive is being discussed at European level. Can the Tánaiste outline Ireland's position on the directive? Does he believe that we should widen the scope of the business covered by the directive? Will we push for the directive to apply to full value chains for EU companies not just established business relationships? Can he outline where he sees that going?

A couple of weeks ago, this committee heard a very compelling presentation on the Unified Patent Court, UPC. We know that a referendum is needed for its introduction but a very strong argument was made by the people who came before us that we should hold the referendum quite soon and maybe as early as next year because there are enormous advantages for Ireland having a UPC. I was impressed by what I heard at that meeting. Will the Tánaiste tell us whether the Government can move quicker on this; are there reasons that we cannot or should not do so and if we do not then will we lose out, as a State, on a number of issues of which the Tánaiste is well aware?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We do not have projections for company insolvencies but we do think that they will increase. The number of companies that have gone bust and insolvent in the past couple of years has been extremely low. What did happen was that many businesses that would otherwise have failed have managed to survive on Government supports. Since the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and Government supports were removed a lot of companies tried to make a go of it but now with high energy prices and falling consumer confidence some companies will not survive. That is the truth, unfortunately. On the plus side, that situation will free up staff and custom for other businesses. Nobody likes to see any business fail but the nature of a market economy is that some businesses succeed while others do not and those that fail often get replaced by new ones that are better. We anticipate an increase in company insolvencies over the next few months. Crucially, we now have the small company administrative rescue process, SCARP. That is a really good system as it allows small companies to restructure where they can be made viable. So far a very small number of companies have availed of SCARP but the feedback is very positive. The fear of SCARP has caused debtors, banks and others to write down debts in a way that they would not have done previously but SCARP does help. We want to save businesses that are viable but we cannot continue to provide taxpayers' money to businesses that are not viable as that does not help anybody in the end.

On uptake of the 20 schemes, we need to advertise them more. We have the climate toolkit. We did think of making access to TBESS conditional on completing the climate toolkit to force businesses to become aware of what is on offer but we did not want to make it overly bureaucratic and force businesses, particularly small ones, to jump through too many hoops. When the documentation goes out businesses will be reminded that these schemes exist and that there is a climate toolkit that they can complete.

The Deputy was right to say that the cap is €10,000 per month per business unit. We wanted to include a cap because no cap would be impossible to cost and economically reckless.

We would welcome a trade focus from the committee. If the committee decides to do so then we would definitely like to get IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland to engage with the committee on that. I was a member of this committee between 2007 and 2011 so I know that at that time the committee had a particular interest in the number of trade visits. Such trade visits proved useful from a Team Ireland point of view and we are interested in talking to the committee about doing that again if they so desired.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Trade visits stopped because of the pandemic, austerity and other reasons. I do not see why trade visits should not resume and we would make sure that the programme is useful from the point of view of Team Ireland.

On work permits and visas, there is a new EU directive coming down the line. Realistically, it would take a two-year programme to merge the two processes and get that right, which is the most important thing.

We are planning for a referendum on the UPC but not a standalone referendum. For a very niche issue a standalone referendum might result in a very low turnout. As is often the case in referendums, people vote for all sorts of reasons and often they are not pertinent to the question itself so we think it is better to hold a referendum at the same time as another referendum. We will do it no later than the local and European elections of 2024. If the country goes to the polls before then, and it might perhaps in relation to a Limerick mayor or other referendums, but that would not be the occasion and I would not like to have a standalone referendum as that carries inherent risks.

On the corporate sustainable due diligence directive, Mr. John Newham will answer that question as he is much more across it than I am.

Mr. John Newham:

The proposal is still at a very early stage and there are working parties every month in Brussels on it. A lot of the questions of the nature asked by Deputy Stanton were raised during the public consultation that the Commission undertook. Those questions are being raised across EU member states and we are looking for clarity on a number of areas.

On the scope, there is some criticism that it only applies to 1% of companies. The more pertinent question is how much of the EU's trade and imports is that 1% responsible for, and I think that the bulk of imports would relate to that.

In terms of Ireland's informal position, we are generally in favour of any proposal that promotes responsible business but the directive does need to be enforceable, proportionate and effective.

We are currently awaiting clarity. We hope to undertake our own public consultation process towards the end of the year and that will help inform the Minister's position in that regard.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for being here and for his presentation. Last week's budget was clearly about protecting jobs, people, families and employment through a difficult time of uncertainty. He used a cake analogy. We cannot take it for granted it will always be there. It is sometimes accepted that we are in a position that other countries are not, which means we are able to give out €11 billion without borrowing any money at all. However, we have also been responsible by holding back some money. Can the Minister elaborate on the rationale behind that? What will be possible in the new year? There is responsibility involved. People have been talking about the €11 billion that will be spent but we are holding back €2 billion, and there will be another €4 billion on top of that in 2023. Where does that leave us in protecting businesses into the new year?

As Deputy Stanton said, many businesses are looking to change their ways and become more energy-efficient, through, for example, solar panels. We have 20 schemes available but when I talk to business owners, they are not fully aware of all of them. Many schemes have become available in a short time and some business owners are not aware of them. We need to increase awareness in that respect. Business owners to whom I speak want to invest in different forms of energy, particularly solar panels.

The Minister mentioned the four or five big new schemes that have been brought through in the budget to support businesses and protect jobs. Other schemes are just as important. Approximately 15 measures to support businesses have been brought through. The VAT rate for newspapers has been reduced from 9% to zero. That is important for local employment in every county and rural area. In my area, the excise relief on cider is important. We in County Tipperary are very well-known for cider and apples. The excise relief will protect jobs there. A number of schemes are available for low-cost loans. Because of the uncertain times we are in, some people might suggest that there will be fewer applications for low-cost loans. I suspect that will not be the case. What is the rationale behind those low-cost loans?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The availability of low-cost loans is a relatively new innovation. We have had Government-backed low-cost loans for only the past ten or 12 years. They are essentially designed to give businesses access to credit at a lower interest rate and for longer terms than would otherwise be the case. We encourage the banks to do that by sharing some of the risk. That tips the balance and encourages banks to grant credit where they otherwise would not. Those loans are available with slightly lower interest rates than would otherwise be the case. We ensure such loans are not 100% guaranteed by the Government because we need to ensure the banks have plenty of skin in the game and they would be burned if they made foolish lending decisions.

The take-up of those loans varies. The most successful has been the future growth loan scheme, which has encouraged small businesses, in particular, to borrow to expand. That scheme was fully subscribed. We are going to replace it with a new scheme that is similar but focused on expansion and sustainability. In addition, there will be a scheme to help businesses that are struggling with bills linked to the war in Ukraine. We ran a similar scheme during the pandemic that approximately 10,000 businesses availed of. There are good levels of take-up for these kinds of schemes.

Budget 2023 is done, as the committee knows. The tax and welfare spending decisions for next year have been made. The departmental spending ceilings for next year have been set. There is no prospect of a mini-budget in the new year or at any time next year. We have included flexibility in the budget for very good reason. The reserve fund, which the Senator mentioned, is designed to store away some of those corporation profit tax receipts for a future shock. There is also contingency in the budget for a further wave of Covid-19, which will probably happen, and for further migration from Ukraine, which will probably happen too. There are other surpluses included. As the Taoiseach said the other day, budget 2023 contains flexibility to allow us to make decisions and intervene to help businesses and families during next year if we need to.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I thank the Minister for coming before the committee. It is impressive that we have such a low unemployment rate, which has happened on his watch, despite the pandemic and all the other things that have been happening. We must acknowledge that. It is super that we can say we have such a low unemployment rate. There are many jobs out there. We must acknowledge that and give some gratitude to the Minister for it. I wish him luck when he takes on his new role in December.

I will now turn to slightly more challenging topics. I have a couple of quick questions. I will again raise the corporate sustainability due diligence directive. What is Ireland's position on the directive? We all know there are deep concerns around human rights and environmental violations. Irish companies and multinationals based here are not immune from the problem. Half of the top 60 companies in Ireland scored less than 20% on embedded respect for human rights in their global operations in a recent study by Trinity College Dublin. We have all seen images of child labour, devastating pollution and all that goes with fast fashion and all of that. It is a serious issue and there is an opportunity at the discussion tables at EU level for Ireland to strengthen the case and this potentially good EU legislation. What is our position in that respect? Who is at the table for us? Is it the Minister for Foreign Affairs? Who do we go to about this issue? I know it is not a matter for the Minister before us.

I thank him for the great supports provided to small businesses in the budget. He mentioned T-BESS in his opening address. If businesses are not given proper advice or a half-day energy audit, they will not necessarily invest in the best places. I conducted energy audits with schools for many years. We often used to focus on the low-cost stuff first. Some schools were putting up photovoltaic panels but leaving the lights on all night. The education piece is of paramount importance. I would like to see local enterprise offices, LEOs, and Enterprise Ireland with boots on the ground and going into businesses. It would not be a bureaucratic thing. We could offer a free energy audit and then offer a grant to a business that avails of that audit. Otherwise the grant will be spent on measures that are not the first things required. It is like the retrofit scheme. Photovoltaic panels should not be put on a roof if there is no attic insulation. We cannot assume that businesses are energy conservation experts because they are not. They do not have time to be. They really want practical advice. I do not see the training being provided in that regard. That piece is missing. We want the money to go to the best place to provide the most energy efficiency.

Because of the climate and biodiversity issues we face, we should have specific measures for food production and food businesses. We are currently importing 20% of our potatoes, 95% of our apples, 80% of our onions and 37% of our carrots. It could be said that relates to agriculture but these are food businesses. We have some growers here but need to up our game big time if we want food security. The future is unpredictable for many reasons. I would love to see the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment take food production in this country seriously. Indigenous fruits and vegetables are being grown so that they are more resilient to our weather and will require fewer chemicals. I am talking about seed sovereignty and supporting brilliant organisations such as the Irish Seed Savers Association. If we cannot feed people, they cannot go to work. I highlight food businesses. I will stop talking now, otherwise the Minister will not have an opportunity to reply.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator.

I echo what Senator Garvey said on food production. Senator Ahearn referred to apple and pear growers in Munster and it is similar in north County Dublin. It is a great form of agriculture that helps us produce indigenous products and may be more climate friendly than other forms of food production.

We support the corporate sustainability due diligence directive in principle and think it is a good idea. Our Department will be the lead Department on it. It is done through the competitiveness council. The Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, attends that on behalf of the Department. We want to make sure we get it right and do not want to make it too onerous. There are a huge number of information obligations on businesses. We are adding new ones every day and do not want to go too far on that front. We want to make sure it is sensible and that we do not put ourselves at a competitive disadvantage relative to other countries but when it comes to issues such as child labour or environmental destruction, companies need to be exposed if they are engaging in such practices. We need to call out and expose greenwashing from companies. There are many things Irish people would not buy if they knew how and by whom they were manufactured. Having transparency around that is to everyone’s benefit.

Energy audits are a good idea. We offer grants and vouchers for businesses to get energy audits done, and want to increase the take-up of those. There are new LEO grants for businesses to act on those audits. There are many savings to be made. There are two obvious ones I have come across. One is open fridges, which I did not know much about until the students came in here and did their climate assembly in the Dáil. It was one of the ten things they put forward. I have met retailers who have cut their electricity bills by as much as 50% by covering their fridges. It is nice to be able to look into a fridge and not have to lift a lid but if those are the savings that can be achieved, we can all lift the lid. It is extraordinary to freeze the air. We should freeze the fridges and products in fridges, not the air around them.

I hope we will see a big uptake in solar from business and farmers. We are putting the grants in place and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, announced just the other day changes to the grants for business to make them more accessible. Planning rules have been changed too, so it will be much easier to put up a solar panel without planning permission.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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If putting up solar panels, you should check first you have done all you can to reduce electricity demands. Reduction is the key and provision of electricity is the second one. We need better trained people in the LEOs and Enterprise Ireland to give advice to businesses, come in, do an energy audit and cut down on electricity. It have done this. It makes a huge difference. Then you go and take action.

The green for micro initiative the Minister mentioned is brilliant but only 300 businesses have taken it up out of 250,000. There is something wrong there. If the grant is not tied to it, it will not be done. People just go for the grants.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I agree. That is the plan and is why we have the two grant schemes. It is so people can act on the advice. The steep increase in energy prices will prompt businesses to think about this which did not think about it before. That is the silver lining of this very dark cloud.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank the Minister and departmental officials for attending. This morning saw the publication of the report of the high level working group on collective bargaining. It is to be warmly welcomed, particularly because both trade unions and business sat around the table to formulate that report.

In the Minister’s statement, he highlighted that our laws are weak when parties refuse to engage. When will he make legislative changes to address that issue? He will probably say he needs to engage with various stakeholders but we need to hear from him as to whether he intends to legislate this year or the year after. Does he understand that workers, particularly low-wage workers, need the changes recommended in this report to end the employer veto over the joint labour committees?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That report was discussed at Cabinet yesterday, and was published today by the high level working group on collective bargaining. I thank the chairman, who will be in town for the IRN conference on Thursday, and members of the committee for the work they did. It is a complicated area. They had 11 or 12 meetings, engaged in huge deliberations and produced, which was quite an achievement for the group, a negotiated way forward that has both unions and IBEC on board. That is no small task and required much bravery from both sides to negotiate a potential way forward. The next step is consultation in the coming months. The timeline for implementation would require some major changes to our industrial relations law. A lot of that would be governed by how quickly the EU directive progresses. One reason we are doing this is that there is a new EU directive on minimum wages and collective bargaining. We do not need to do much on the minimum wage side because our system with the Low Pay Commission, which I appreciate was established by the Senator’s party, covers that. However, our laws are not adequate on the collective bargaining side so the timeline will be determined by that directive. We do not want to pass a national law and find it is not consistent with a European law.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The directive was adopted yesterday by the European Council and, therefore, the time is ticking. We have two years at most to implement the directive on adequate minimum wages. I am conscious the Minister will need to apprise himself of the detail of what was approved yesterday, but what assurances can he give on that transposition? Importantly, with regard to unemployment law, Ireland has not covered itself in glory in fulsome implementation following the transposition of EU directives. What assurance can the Minister give on the transposition of the technical detail and the spirit of this important directive?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has caught me off guard. I did not realise that was approved by the Council yesterday. I assumed it would go to the Council meeting in October but it must have been done by written procedure. I will have to take a look at that.

Our intention is to transpose the directive within the deadline set by the EU. The timeline we have set internally, which I do not necessarily want to be held to because this is a complicated area, is to have it done by the end of 2023. We would certainly aim to have it done within the timeline set by the directive.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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We had the heads of the right to request remote work Bill in January. In February, the Minister acknowledged that changes needed to be made. On 6 July, nearly three months ago to the day, the pre-legislative report from the committee landed on the Department’s desk and we still do not have the Bill. A number of clear recommendations came from the committee, particularly with regard to the waiting time before somebody could request remote work and the right of appeal. They can appeal based on the substance of the refusal, as opposed to the process. What clarity can the Minister give as to what will be published in the Bill in the final quarter of this year? There have been months of talking about this but we have not heard anything concrete from him as to what is in the Bill.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for the work it did on it. It held many hearings and heard all sides. It is a much more complicated area when you hear all sides than even I thought it was at the start. The recommendations that the committee has made are solid and, I hope, will allow us to produce legislation that will have cross-party support. We will probably have to do revised heads because what we are planning to do departs quite far from the original heads. We intend to do revised heads in the next couple of weeks. I might ask Ms Coogan to come in on that. Is she covering that side?

Ms Tara Coogan:

I am not.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. The commitment I have given is to have the revised legislation published before Christmas.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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This is quarter 4 of the year and it feels like the Government is dragging its heels on this. It also seems wasteful that we have from the Minister’s Department a right to request remote work and from a separate Department a right to flexible work.

Does the Tánaiste believe there is a distinction between remote work and flexible work, by which I mean flexibility with regard to place of work and flexibility with regard to hours of work? Does the Tánaiste really believe that they should be legislated for separately?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have an open mind on them being legislated for together. We did consider dealing with the issue of remote working as an amendment to the legislation that the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is bringing through now. What the Minister is bringing through derives from a European directive on flexible working. It is for parents and carers, whereas remote working is not just for parents and carers - it is for all workers. It is largely about where people work, rather than flexibility. We decided to do it as two pieces of legislation for that reason. It is probably too late now to put it in as an amendment to the Minister's legislation, but I can assure the Senator that we are not dragging our feet on it at all. I thought we would have this done by now. As I said before we were going to press ahead with five new workers' rights, this turned out to be the one that was the most complicated and that we found hardest to get consensus on. That is why it has fallen behind the others, which are now effectively done. We are very keen to have it published by 15 December.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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On the evidence of the lack of consensus, we agreed the recommendations on a cross-party basis. Employers who appeared before the committee were calling for a dramatic change in the heads of the Bill as published by the Department. I do not quite understand why there have been such delays. I am not assured by the language used today that the Department is still preparing. We are now in the final quarter, so we need to see the Bill as soon as possible.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste and the departmental officials for attending today. In his opening statement, the Tánaiste described the south east as being one of the best performing regions over the past two years. I am just wondering what qualitative and quantitative research the Department used to form that description. I might provide the Tánaiste with some of my own. The south east has 8.9% of the country's population and 5.4% of IDA Ireland jobs. I believe this shows that the IDA strategy has failed the south east to date, notwithstanding that I have engaged and am engaging with some of the companies that are presently announcing down there. In terms of share of GDP, we have 6.7% of national GDP. We are missing nearly €10 billion of GDP. At present, we are at €28.5 billion, and I estimate that we should be at €37.8 billion by that metric. We have 209,000 people in the labour market, which is a record high, but we still have lower participation and higher unemployment rates. It shows a shortfall of 11,000 individuals in the work area. In terms of taxation, individuals in the south east pay 51.2% of the national average of all income taxes. We have progressive tax, but this demonstrates the low job quality we have in the region. In terms of PAYE jobs, the south east provides 48.5% of the national average of PAYE and the USC tax take. On those metrics, I do not think we could be described as one of the best performing regions in the country. I would say that in fact, we are still a laggard. I have asked the Tánaiste in the House and have engaged with the Department on it, but will the Government now consider establishing a western development-type commission for the south-east region? It has been done very successfully in the west. As the Tánaiste is aware, it is underpinned by statute and receives funding of around €2.5 million per annum from which it can lever additional moneys. It does applied research and comes up with strategic analysis that it is able to lobby the Government very effectively for. That is something that is missing in the south east. Perhaps the Tánaiste can address that.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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What I referred to in relation to the south east was for last year. Last year the south east was either the best or the second best performing region in terms of jobs growth. That is from Central Statistics Office, CSO, data. It is a region that is catching up, and a region that is in the catch-up phase. I believe that the Government's investment in infrastructure, in roads, in the national broadband plan, in tourist infrastructure like the greenways and in the technological university is the kind of investment that is now helping a region that is behind other regions in the State to catch up. The Deputy will be aware of the hundreds of jobs announced in Waterford in the last year or so. Most of those jobs have yet to be created, but when they are, they will bring a lot of well-paid jobs into Waterford city. That will generate increased consumer spend and other jobs in that city. Over 1,000 jobs have been announced in Kilkenny in the last few months, including 300 by State Street in financial services and the best part of 1,000 by Abbott in pharma. Kilkenny, which is a relatively small city of 15,000 to 20,000 people, is seeing a huge level of investment, which I think is very encouraging.

I need to be frank about IDA jobs. IDA jobs gravitate towards the large cities. That is true the world over. It is not something that we can change, and we need to be honest and realistic about that. In Austria, Denmark or any other country, large multinational companies tend to locate their large facilities in major population centres. They want to know that there are 1 million or 1.5 million people within commuting distance. They want to know how many universities there are and how many international airports there are. That is the kind of thing they want to know. If we judge the south east only by IDA jobs, the south east and other regions will always be behind. However, there is more to the economy than IDA jobs. There are Enterprise Ireland jobs. One of the biggest investments I am seeing at the moment on that front is the Glanbia-Royal A-Ware investment in Waterford Port for the new plant, which I had the honour to turn the sod on. It is not all about the IDA. Enterprise Ireland jobs are important too, as are tourism, agriculture and the small business sector. It is wrong to judge a region just based on FDI, which will always gravitate to the very large cities.

We would be interested in exploring the idea of having a south-east development commission. I think the jury is out on whether such initiatives are hugely successful. The Western Development Commission does some really useful work. It is doing really good stuff around remote working hubs at the moment. We heard Senator Crowe, earlier in this discussion, pointing out that the western region has actually fallen behind, and is ranked lower by the EU than the south-east region under the metric that he referenced. We had a body like that for the mid-west, Shannon Development, but a decision was made to go in a different direction. I think the jury is out on whether having a regional body of that nature is hugely successful. I would like to see that weighed up independently before making a call on it.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste says "potato" and I say "potahto". It depends on what is being measured when he is saying that the west has fallen behind. Looking at where the west is in comparison to the south east, there is a far greater degree of wealth in the west at this time. That was not the position 25 years ago. I would contend that the Western Development Commission has done an excellent job, to be honest, in terms of framing strategic policy for that region. On infrastructural investment in the south east, the Tánaiste pointed out that IDA companies look for up to 1.5 million people to be within a commuting distance. I can tell the Tánaiste that Waterford has that metric already. We are not lacking that. However, the number of visits that are done by IDA Ireland, particularly to Waterford, is low. In actual fact, the IDA office has only recently been added to in number. A new executive director was appointed, which is welcome, but it is only starting to recognise the deficiencies that have been there. On the Tánaiste's comments on infrastructural investments that the south east region has seen, I would point out that we are not seeing investment in roads. Nothing is being done on the N24 and N25 beyond a couple of million euro being spent on taking out bad bends. There are no plans to upgrade either of those roads in the climate action plan or the Minister for Transport's directives on roads. Beyond that, we are still waiting to see the investment in third level education, in our hospital, which is the largest employer in the region, and in the airport. We are still behind, and it is something that must be addressed. I look forward to engaging with the Tánaiste further on the idea of a development commission, because it is vital and needed for the region.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy says "potato", I say "potahto"; he says "half-empty", I say "half-full". There has been phenomenal investment in roads and infrastructure in the south east, and not just in the motorway all the way to Waterford. There is the New Ross bypass, and the N11 bypassing Gorey and going all the way through to Wexford. The largest bridge in the country is part of the New Ross bypass. Enniscorthy has been done too. There has been a massive investment of hundreds of millions in Rosslare Port and a big investment in Waterford Port, which we talked about earlier with the Glanbia plant. There is also a new university for the south east. I am an optimist about the region.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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As am I. I intend to work proactively-----

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It does not sound like it. The Deputy should not be talking down his own town.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I think it is important to highlight that the Tánaiste talks about investment and growth, and I ask him to show it to me.

I have just given him a range of metrics that obviously demonstrate that what he describes is not the case at present, but we are coming along.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is good to see the Tánaiste. He is very welcome. I want to raise the issue of European work councils. As the Tánaiste knows, because this has been an ongoing issue in his Department for several years, there have been many complaints over the failure of the Irish Government to correctly transpose the EU directive on European work councils. In essence, workers cannot access the industrial relations machinery of the State. That is not just my view but that of the European Commission. The Commission is very clear on this: "The Commission has identified a number of shortcomings in Irish legislation, which fails to guarantee the right of workers' representatives". What puzzles me is that, in contrast with the Minister's positive comments on collective bargaining, which I very much welcome, his Department appears to have set its face entirely against allowing members of European work councils to access the industrial relations machinery of the State. I genuinely cannot understand why that is the case, particularly because the European Commission has stated so clearly that there are problems with how the EU directive has been transposed and that we need to see amending legislation. Essentially, this is a matter of fairness.

Seven trade unions across Europe, representing 45 million workers, have written to the Minister to highlight their concerns over the failure of the Government to act on this issue. It is doing huge reputational damage to us across Europe. My colleagues in SIPTU have raised this on several occasions. Interestingly, the employer group Brussels European Employee Relations Group, BEERG, has also raised this and has been asking the Government to respond positively on it. Could the Minister give me his stance on whether the Government will engage with the European Commission and recognise that there is a fundamental problem with denying workers access to the industrial relations mechanisms of the State? Will he act on that?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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This has been delegated to the Minister of State, Deputy English, so I might not be fully up to date on it. I may have to revert to the Senator in writing. In the meantime, I shall ask Ms Coogan to comment on it.

Ms Tara Coogan:

To clarify, the Commission has made no such statement. It has raised a potential query with the Department concerning its transposition of the European works council directive. We are currently engaged in a confidential process. There would not be any statements of the kind in question. In fact, there are no findings of any issue.

The Senator is correct that there have been one or two complaints about access to some of the dispute resolution mechanisms, but it is incorrect to suggest there are no mechanisms for access to the Workplace Relations Commission. I understand one of the matters is being investigated and that a decision is anticipated shortly.

It is also incorrect to state complaints referred to the Workplace Relations Commission's inspectorate services are not being examined. I understand one of the matters is under investigation. I believe representatives of BEERG and others met members of this committee and have lobbied for legislative change, but that is not quite the same as saying the transposition of the directive is incorrect.

As I said, we are engaging. I have met representatives of the Commission and will be meeting them again next month to address their issues and explain our legal systems and context to them. As the matter progresses, we will deal with any issues that exist.

If the Commission identifies difficulties with the system, bearing in mind that our understanding is that we have transposed the directive correctly and certainly intended to do so, we will deal with them as they are identified.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Coogan for her response. I ask her to clarify. The European Commission directly states, "The Commission has identified a number of shortcomings in Irish legislation, which fails to guarantee the right of workers' representatives, the Special Negotiating Body (a body of workers' representatives) or the European Works Council to go to a national court over disputes related to breaches of the rights and obligations under this Directive." Is Ms Coogan denying that statement by the Commission?

Ms Tara Coogan:

I cannot comment on that particular quotation. I do not know where the Senator is getting it from; all I know is-----

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Directly from the European Commission.

Ms Tara Coogan:

-----that I am engaging with the Commission in a confidential process and that it is investigating complaints made to it. No findings of fact have been made.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on because of the shortage of time. My second question relates to a commitment given by the Minister of State, Deputy English, earlier this year to deal with the fact that fishers cannot currently take cases under Part 2 of the Organisation of Working Time Act. There have been some chilling cases on the exploitation of fishers. One of them, put up yesterday on the Workplace Relations Commission's website, concerns a fisher called Jose Pame Salandron. He was awarded just under €14,000 because he was made work 80 or 90 hours per week on a boat. This is all documented, but, because of the gap in legislation, most of the award from the Labour Court was actually taken off. The good news is that, as far back as 2019, the Government made an agreement with the International Transport Workers' Federation, ITF, that it would introduce simple amending legislation to allow fishers to take cases. However, nothing has been done since. The Minister of State, Deputy English, said earlier this year that we would have legislation by springtime, but it still has not been seen. I would like a clear commitment and timeline for the legislation.

On two occasions at meetings of this committee, we have had powerful presentations by representatives of the ITF detailing the shocking, exploitative abuse of fishers – the most horrendous kind of abuse. The case I have cited is a case in point. I am referring to working weeks of 70, 80 or 90 hours. I understand there may well be a case taken against this State seeking Francovich damages in regard to that, but I cannot understand why, three and half years after an agreement with the ITF, simple legislation has still not been brought forward by the Department. I would welcome a positive response from the Minister and a timeline as to when this issue will be dealt with to protect some of the most vulnerable migrant workers in the State.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have no doubt that there is very serious exploitation in the fishing industry. It is mainly non-citizens who are being mistreated in the way described. It needs to be stamped out. Since it involves an area not directly under my remit, I would like to confer with the Minister of State, Deputy English, and the section and maybe revert to the Senator in writing.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I am genuinely concerned by that because the Minister of State is on the record, in response to a parliamentary question earlier this year, as saying we would have legislation by springtime. He has made that commitment but there is no legislation three and a half years on. I accept the Minister's concerns in that no one wants to see this horrendous exploitation. A simple change would make a massive difference. Who in the Government is going to take ownership and deliver the change? Surely, as Tánaiste, the Minister should be able to make that commitment to me?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It was a commitment made by the Minister of State, Deputy English, who is not here. I do not want to respond on his behalf but I will confer with him and the section, and we will respond in writing-----

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Could the Tánaiste respond to the committee in writing?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Tánaiste on the progress he has made on workers' rights, consumers' rights and legislation on anti-competitive practices in a very difficult time. At the risk of raising the ire of my colleague Deputy Shanahan, I have to say that not long after TalkTalk closed in the south east, one of the initiatives we took involved the creation of regional enterprise plans. This was because we recognised every region had different competitive advantages and that you had to play to their strengths. Regions are making progress as a result of that initiative. I am delighted to hear €180 million is being devoted to this.

I would like to raise a few issues of concern to me. I will comment on the low take-up of the 2020 energy efficiency schemes. It is incumbent on the Government to have a national import energy resilience initiative that examines much more seriously our excessive dependence on energy imports. Our ambition is to halve our dependence on fossil fuels by 2030 and eliminate them altogether by 2050. However, we have a lot of low-hanging fruit that neither businesses nor households are taking advantage of, for example, smart controls, smart meters, shallow first retrofits, sharing platforms, switching platforms, storage opportunities, solar opportunities, switching modes to electric vehicles, and charging points. I could list dozens of measures that could be put in place by local authorities, the Government and businesses if they had a strategic approach, in addition to supports for householders so they can do the same. We really need to take it seriously because the Ukraine crisis is not going to end quickly, nor are the energy and climate crises that underpin it. That is the first strong call. We need to see businesses taking the lead, with sectoral strategies to achieve that.

That brings me to my second point, which is that we are overlooking and downgrading the opportunity of the so-called circular economy approach to transforming how we see our sectors and build their competitive strengths for the future. The idea associated with the circular economy is to examine the entire supply chain and seek to take out the damage that is done.

That includes climate damage but also pollution, excessive use of plastic and excessive damage to biodiversity.

One big advantage of this approach is it is non-confrontational and problem-solving, whereas much of the debate about climate is a finger-pointing exercise that involves complaining about people not pulling their weight, when we need to approach this in a collective way. About 80% of environmental damage is baked in at the design stage, so if we start to get businesses rethinking the way they approach their sector, whether that is construction, food, fast fashion or whatever, and thinking about how the sector and the markets are structured, we can get transformative change that is not very expensive. It absolutely makes sense for Ireland to take a lead in this area. It has been downgraded and is not included as a platform in the climate plan, and has instead been put into a siding where just the Environmental Protection Agency is supposed to be developing programmes, but that agency does not have the leverage to drive the sectoral changes that are necessary.

I have congratulated the Tánaiste on the national minimum wage, the living wage, the auto-enrolment scheme, the sick pay scheme, the protection of tips, the remote working Bill and so on. Is there an issue for SMEs and the pressure it may put on some of those more vulnerable companies as we seek to draw lessons from the underprotection of people in the past? How can we strike that balance and ensure we phase this in a way whereby smaller businesses can manage that transition? What thinking is going into that?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for mentioning the regional enterprise plans, which I neglected to mention in response to Deputy Shanahan. The south-east local authorities, in particular, really embraced the most recent regional enterprise plan. They appointed a programme manager and helped to make it happen. A new plan has been agreed and they are going to be funded. We have €180 million in European funding to fund them. The Ministers of State, Deputies English and Calleary, and I hope to open the first call of funding before the end of the year.

On energy conservation and energy efficiency, the Deputy is absolutely correct. This is a big opportunity to change our ways and embrace energy conservation and efficiency. The question we are asking ourselves is whether what we are experiencing is a shock or a shift. It is generally a shock in terms of the sharp increase in energy prices, but it could also be a shift. We may see that energy prices are going to be higher permanently. I am really impressed at the way the Dutch responded to the oil crisis in the 1970s. In pictures of Amsterdam, Leiden and Utrecht from the 1970s and 1980s, the cities look like ours. It is all cars, with perhaps a few bus lanes. If you visit those cities now, you see how they changed their ways in the 1970s and embraced cycling, pedestrianisation and permeability. Although this is a different crisis, there is a great opportunity for us to embrace energy efficiency and use energy much better. We need to do that and drive it from a Government level.

I am a big fan of the circular economy, the legislation for which is now complete, as the Deputy will be aware. It is a big legislative change, brought through by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications. I think it is very good legislation, although I hear the Deputy's criticism that it might need to be mainstreamed rather than sidelined, and I will think on that.

I have been trying to embrace it myself a bit. I had my runners refitted and redone a couple of months ago. It did not work so well for my leather shoes but I had two sets of runners renovated instead of buying a new pair. It cost about €40 or €50 and they came back as good as new. Anyone would think they were new. I would have always thrown them out previously. There are many opportunities to reuse materials and create jobs in doing so. I visited the Milk Market in Limerick a couple of weeks ago and a lady who runs a vintage shop was telling me it is now quite common for girls who are looking for their communion dresses not to want fast fashion but instead to want a vintage dress. There are many opportunities to reuse materials and create jobs that we need to embrace fully.

Finally, on the point about stronger workers' rights and higher wages, this is something that worries me because we are putting a great deal of pressure on small employers, through increases in the minimum wage, the move to the living wage, stronger workers' rights and auto-enrolment. History tells us this does not affect employment. We have never had higher wages or so many workers' rights, yet so many people have never been at work. I do not buy this argument, therefore, that low wages and poor workers' rights result in high employment and economic growth. That is clearly not the case and it is not the experience of our nation.

Even so, I am clouded into the fact that if we go too far too fast, we might end up doing things that are perverse. I am concerned that if we go too fast, employers might have to reduce people's hours or lay people off to cover the cost of the increased wages and rights we are imposing on them. That is something we have to keep a close eye on. I still think, as do the Central Bank, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and the Department of Finance, that notwithstanding all we are doing, total employment will increase again next year. If it does not, we will have to think about this, and one of the good aspects of the Low Pay Commission's report on the living wage is that, although it has set a four-year target to introduce it, it is clear it can go faster or more slowly, depending on economic circumstances, and we have to have regard to that.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Sick pay is to be introduced in January. Is that 1 January? Does the Tánaiste have a date for when the tips law is going to come in?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The tips law will take effect on 1 December, while the sick pay scheme will begin on 1 January. We hope to have all the regulations signed off within the coming weeks but we have to give a notice period. It is not good practice to sign the regulations and apply them the next day. That is the plan at the moment.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to the collective bargaining coverage and the recommendations of the high-level group. It recommended that where an employer refuses to engage and ignores the Labour Court decision on the matter, the union can seek a Circuit Court order for implementation against the employer. I welcome that recommendation, although I would like to see how it will be transposed into the legislation.

I am conscious of what the Tánaiste said before a different committee, when he stated that in no world can people be forced to negotiate in good faith or to come to an agreement. Senator Gavan, Deputy Funchion and I have a good deal of experience organising workers and we know it is not possible. People can sit and say anything they want, with their fingers crossed behind their back. They cannot be forced, but the rights of workers to have their voice heard can be strengthened, and that represents their best chance of getting decent terms and conditions. What is the timeframe for this and what mechanism will be used? I agree people cannot be forced to negotiate in good faith, but it can be made so that it works against their best interests not to do so.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The timeline will be determined by the EU directive on minimum wages and collective bargaining. I think it is two years we are being given, so we have two years to transpose the directive. We will set the internal Department target to have it completed by the end of next year-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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That was my question. I understand the other parts.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----but that still leaves us some space.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, there is no harm being ahead of the curve on this.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy and I agree that people can be forced to meet but not to engage in good faith or to agree, and I do not think they should be forced to do that in a democracy. Incentives and disincentives can be created, however, and I think that is what the report suggests, whereby the environment would incentivise people to engage in good faith, with disincentives where they do not.

As the Deputy will know better than I do given her background in the union movement, there are different systems in different countries. In some countries, it is quasi-judicial, and if agreement cannot be met, the parties go to a body similar to the Labour Court, which can impose an agreement on both the employer and the workers. We do not want go down that road because it would take away the democratic right of workers to have their ballot respected and take away the rights of employers, businesspeople, shareholders and board members to have the same agency.

We do not want to go down that route. We want to make sure it continues to be voluntarist.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. However, when organising workers, in particular those who are vulnerable, low-paid workers and workers in an environment where there is a lot of transition, time is of the essence. It is very hard when someone is convinced to join the union but their boss does not want them to join the union. We have to stand with them but it becomes very difficult to stay with them at every step of the process. There will have to be some fairly compelling reasons in order to deter an employer from going all the way to the court on this. If workers lose faith in this process, it will not work. If it does not deliver for low-income workers, that would be the ultimate test. I would like to see us being a little more ambitious. I understand we have two years but that should not be the target; it should be the absolute limit.

With regard to the corporate sustainability due diligence directive that is being negotiated by the EU member states in the Council of the European Union, what is our position on this directive? We have played a good role globally as a champion for human rights but the question is whether we are willing to do the same when it comes to human rights and business. Are we going to push for greater ambition from the European Union in regard to this directive? Are we working with other progressive states within the European Union to shape this directive?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We support it. We are the lead Department on following the file through the European process. It is done through the European Competitiveness Council, COMPET, so the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, attends that rather than I. We do want to get it right. Companies that use child labour or destroy the environment need to be called out for doing so, and consumers have a right to know when they buy a product or service that child labour is not used, that people are not exploited and that the environment is not destroyed in the process. Therefore, we support it but we want to get it right. We do not want to put ourselves at a competitive disadvantage to other countries and lose jobs or revenue here, and we do not want to impose overly onerous information obligations on businesses where there is nothing to be necessarily gained from it. I will ask Mr. Newham to add to that in terms of our dealings with other countries, as he would be more familiar with that than I am.

Mr. John Newham:

As I was saying earlier, there are lots of questions being posed across EU member states to the Commission on the files. In terms of aligning ourselves with any grouping, that just has not arisen yet. We are still at a stage where we are trying to understand elements of the proposal. I would make the comment that it is a proposal for legislation, so precision and clarity are necessary around the proposal. That is where we are currently at. A lot more will come into play later in the year when we get clarity from the Commission.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Later this year.

Mr. John Newham:

Yes. We will then go out to public consultation nationally.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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When will the public consultation start?

Mr. John Newham:

I would hope by the end of the year. We are engaging and we have had meetings with stakeholders and NGOs, and we are meeting them next week as well. Many of these questions are being raised in those formats.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the business energy support scheme, I watched the budget briefing on budget day and it was said that the scheme is open to any business. I have some concerns in that regard. The ability for any business to apply to the scheme could potentially leave us open to abuse while, obviously, the net needs to be cast wide and any business that deserves it should be in the scheme. Will the Minister outline how the Department will ensure the systems are in place to ensure that only businesses that qualify under the terms of the scheme will be able to benefit under its terms? The net needs to be cast wide but there is a concern. People were extremely angry that businesses benefited from support during Covid and those same businesses subsequently paid out dividends to their shareholders. That angered people because they felt those businesses maybe did not need that support. Is there going to be a system in place to ensure against this or is it a case of bringing everyone in? In that regard, is the finance there to support the casting of a very wide net?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It will apply to any business that had an electricity or gas bill last year and can show that the unit cost us gone up by 50% or more. We are looking at the issue of businesses that use oil rather than gas or electricity, and that is particularly the case in businesses in some parts of rural Ireland. Oil has not gone up by as much but it has gone up, so we may need to do something in that space. We are also looking at the issue of businesses that were established in the last couple of months because we do not want to put them at a disadvantage by subsidising the energy bills of their established competitors. There are going to be a lot of issues with this that we will have to iron out. I absolutely have confidence in the Revenue to administer it well but, a bit like the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and the Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS, we are probably going to have to tweak it a few times before we get it exactly right.

The scheme is not designed to stop companies making profits; it is designed to make sure they can still make profits. The whole point of a business, or a big point of a business, is to break even or make a profit, but it will work like the CRSS, so it is partly recoverable in that sense because it is a taxable payment, unlike the EWSS.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have a question in regard to employment permits but I first want to pick up on the discussion about the south east. I am from the south east but people sometimes forget that my area of south Tipperary is part of the south-east region. We saw in the census figures some months ago that the number of people who are now moving to the south east is much higher than the national average. Those people are moving there because there are jobs and a good standard of living. People see it the way the Minister and I see it in terms of the glass being half full and there being a lot of positivity. In terms of job creation for the region, last year was the second highest across the country, so the facts are there.

With regard to infrastructure, in particular roads, the Minister gave a list of projects in the region and a list of job creation and education projects, in particular the new university in Waterford that will be launched in a couple of weeks, along with TUS Clonmel, which means there are two universities in the south-east region. Will the Minister confirm the position with the N24? An awful lot of work was done by Senator John Cummins and more again by Fine Gael representatives. I would like to think that Oireachtas Members would know that the N24 is on the national development plan up to planning stage. Can the Minister confirm that?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is the Limerick to Waterford road.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is a key priority for the Government and it is on the national development plan. It is not that it is doing nothing at the moment; it is progressing quite well.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is on the national development plan and we are trying to secure funding on an annual basis to make sure it continues to get through planning. It is a longer term project, to be frank.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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With regard to work permits, the last time the Minister was at the committee, 70% or 80% of the conversation for the two hours was about work permits, whereas today one speaker referred to it briefly. The Minister might expand as to where we were and where we are now, and what measures he and the Department have put in place to improve the situation dramatically? Certainly, from the calls I have been getting from businesses that were applying for work permits, the waiting time has dropped dramatically and the level of requests coming in from people applying for a work permit has dropped as well. The Minister might expand on this, although he referred to it in his contribution.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We have gone from at one point a 19-week turnaround time to somewhere between two and four weeks, which is where we plan to maintain it. We have gone from a backlog of 10,000 files to about 2,000 files on file, so it is not really a backlog and we are getting through it in two to four weeks. I offer my particular thanks to all of the staff in the section. We had to increase the staffing levels pretty dramatically - we have trebled them - and we had to do a certain amount of automation, which will help into the future as well. It is actually a money-generating area of the Department. It is one of those ironies in that we did not have enough staff, but all of the staff bring in a lot of money because employers have to pay for the permits. The fact we got sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for the extra staff made all the difference. I want to maintain them in that area so we continue to have efficient turnaround for businesses on work permits.

What happened was similar to what happened with the passports. There was a huge fall in demand during the pandemic and then it bounced back to a record level. The Senator will know that in the passport section, over 1 million passports issued this year, and it really was one of those post-pandemic effects where there was a massive snapback in demand. We were not as prepared for it as maybe we should have been, but we are on top of it now and we plan to stay on top of it. We got an extra €8 million in the budget for staffing in the Department, which allows us to maintain staff in that section and also staff up the new agencies.

We had been moving a lot of people around. We will not have to do that as much next year, which the Secretary General is very happy about.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ahearn has reminded me of the old Amgen site.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thought the Deputy would bring that up. That is in Carrigtwohill.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is probably one of the best sites in the country. Mr. Martin Shanahan, who appeared before the committee recently, also said that. It is a fully serviced site on 56 ha with water, sewerage and electricity utilities. There is a rail link at one end of the site and a dual carriageway at the other end. It has been lying idle for the best part of 20 years and it cannot be developed because the road infrastructure is not up to standard. Cork County Council and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, had plans to upgrade the road outside the site but they were abandoned last year or put on hold. I have spoken about this with the Tánaiste in the Dáil and elsewhere to try to get the road infrastructure up to standard again because the site is just sitting there. IDA Ireland cannot get companies to locate in it because the road infrastructure is not up to standard. They cannot get access to the motorway nearby.

In addition, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage was in Midleton recently where he kick-started at long last the commencement of 2,500 houses, which will also have access to the road infrastructure, as will 3,000 houses in Carrigtwohill. The road is highly dangerous as matters stand and without an upgrade. Those are three extremely good reasons for upgrading it. The point I emphasise, however, is the fact that the IDA Ireland site is lying idle and many companies could use it. There is a shortage of these kinds of sites in the southern region. Perhaps the Minister could use his good offices to kick-start this again.

More than €1.2 million has already been spent on the design and plans for the road, if not more, and there are people who cannot sell their houses there because they do not know what the future will hold. Everything is frozen until the Government decides to move this project again. There are many good reasons for getting it moving and I ask the Tánaiste to act on this.

I asked about CETA earlier when we spoke about trade. I am interested in hearing what the up-to-date thinking on that is. I know there are some political differences but perhaps our engagement with Canada might help to throw some light on that.

Will the Minister comment on Balance for Better Business, which I set up when I was in the Department of Justice? It is now under the remit of his Department. I understand the group is still active and I would like a report on how it is going.

The Ukraine credit guarantee scheme and the growth and sustainability loan scheme both provide low-cost loans. What interest rates are we talking about for those schemes and for how long will they be in place? The growth and sustainability loan scheme provides low-cost loans to farmers, fishers and SMEs. The Minister probably knows that if farmers get grant aid under the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, to install solar panels and so on, they cannot get paid for exporting electricity to the grid. That is a barrier to farmers using solar energy to power their enterprises. It does not make any sense to me. I think it is a European issue. We should be encouraging and supporting farmers and businesspeople to install solar panels as well as batteries so that they can store electricity. Farmers often use electricity at peak times for milking during mornings and evenings. Energy storage in batteries would take pressure off the grid. The grant aid for that is important.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know from my trips to Midleton that the former Amgen site is a great site, and I am sure we will get an investor into it at some point in the not-too-distant future. I agree with the Deputy on the road issue, which we are working on. My Department and IDA Ireland are engaging with the Department of Transport and I hope funding will be available in 2023 to bring it to the next stage. I hear what the Deputy is saying about people whose homes and properties are affected. There is nothing worse than to have one's land or home sterilised. Not knowing whether the project will go ahead is unfair on people.

On CETA, there is still an active court case on that. We will wait until the conclusion of that before proceeding to ratification. We expect a judgment in the coming weeks. We will not press ratification until that judgment is handed down from the courts. There was an issue in Germany that has now resulted in a further clarification instrument from the European Commission and needs to be signed off by Canada. It is designed to reassure some of the people who had concerns about aspects of the agreement.

Balance for Better Business is going really well. When the Deputy established the group, women constituted only about 13% of executive company board members. That has now increased to about 34% or 40%. We are getting there without any quotas. It was done through persuasion and soft engagement, with hard engagement sometimes. It really was business talking to business. We are making good progress there. However, I am conscious that there are only a small number of ISEQ companies. Legislation is on the way from Deputy Higgins and the European Union that could bring in quotas for corporate boards, which is the direction of travel. Would it not be great if we achieved it anyway and quotas became unnecessary because we had already achieved gender equality or parity.

I will come back to the Deputy in writing on the interest rates. The rates are different for the different products as well as for different businesses because banks have to factor risk into the price. Therefore, I cannot provide a straightforward answer and will get back to the Deputy in writing.

On microgeneration, I will take up that issue with the Ministers, Deputy McConalogue and Deputy Eamon Ryan. Any time I inquire about it I am told it is sorted, or almost sorted, and that farmers and businesspeople will be able to sell into the grid. There are issues about how much can be sold and issues with grid connections. I thought that was almost sorted through the microgeneration scheme but, obviously, it is not. I will follow up on that with both Ministers to see what we can do.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I refer to the Minister's comment about optimism. I am certainly an optimist. If I was not, I would not have stood for election in national politics in the hope that I might influence Government policy. I also remind the Minister that I have only been a public servant for the past three years. In my previous career, I was self-employed and worked in the private sector. Yes, I am an optimist but in being an optimist, we cannot wish our problems away either.

On Senator Ahearn's comments about the N24, I would include the N25 in that. I would also like to understand the status of those projects in terms of the national development plan. I am around long enough to remember the promise made to Waterford Institute of Technology, as it was then, in 2009 for an engineering building. That has yet to be delivered and was supposed to be part of the national plan.

I raise the concerns in the SME space, a few of which I will highlight. One concern is the indebtedness of companies that have availed of the warehousing debt scheme. Some of them have started making payments again since last February or March. They may have been slow in getting back on the programme and, if so, they are not tax compliant now and are, therefore, outside the supports the Department is proposing to support SMEs. This issue needs to be looked at. There are valuable and viable businesses involved but they have to be properly supported.

The 40% energy support will not be adequate to cover some businesses. It should be looked at in a more sector-specific way rather than being applied across the board at 40%, and that needs to be done immediately. I ask the Minister to immediately convene an emergency task force to address the challenges facing the SME sector. In the next three to four months, as the Minister will be aware from the small company administrative rescue process, SCARP, businesses will get into significant financial distress very quickly.

I will outline a number of measures that could be introduced. SMEs should be able to access business management consultancy through local enterprise offices to help them with productivity, renewable efficiencies and changing their product suite, portfolio and manufacturing practices. Unfortunately, when people have a small or even a medium-sized business, they are so involved in what is going on that sometimes outside eyes are far better in that regard.

We must look at State procurement again. A large amount of State procurement in this country does not do anything. I know one might say we cannot favour indigenous companies but actually we can. When one looks at what happens in Germany and France compared with our procurement process and the level of participation of our indigenous businesses, there is a gulf between them. That needs to be looked at.

In the agrifood sector, in particular, there are major challenges in food manufacturing. These companies use heating and cooling to manufacture products and are massive energy consumers. They have to be treated in a special way.

We need to look at the dominance of the supermarket sector in this country. It is killing small suppliers. There is market dominance almost bordering on anti-competitive practices. We have to find a way to start breaking these cartels. In Dungarvan in my county there is another application by a major multinational supermarket to locate in a town of 10,000 people which is already serviced by four large supermarket chains. This makes no sense. I am not saying we should obstruct planning but we have to have a policy on this because we are killing indigenous small business in market towns. This is why we see towns in the middle of the country with shops and houses boarded up. We are trying to regenerate the rural economy.

I have asked the Tánaiste a number of times if a representative of ISME can be appointed to the LEEF. Deputy Stanton spoke about the family business network. ISME did significant work with the Department, particularly in the area of insurance reform. I know IBEC and the Small Firms Association are represented but that is not enough. IBEC has a far larger portfolio in regard to large businesses. I would like to see a dedicated small business network representative on the LEEF, and I believe that should be ISME. Will the Minister consider that?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In regard to the N24 and N25 we will seek a clear reply from the Department of Transport for Deputy Shanahan on that. Thankfully, debt levels for Irish SMEs are quite low. Most Irish businesses have no debt which is unusual for a developed country. I will check into the issue raised on warehoused tax liabilities because that could be an emerging issue given that we are heading into another difficult economic period. I do not think they are tax non-compliant but I am not quite sure that is right.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I am informed that they are but I may be corrected. I understand they are if they have missed payments.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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When it comes to the TBESS, our intention is not to exclude companies that have warehoused tax debts. It is to exclude companies that have not paid their taxes. It would not be the intention to exclude them but I thank the Deputy for flagging the issue. I will make sure it is on my list of matters to discuss with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, so that when we design the scheme we do not inadvertently exclude such companies.

In regard to the subsidy we are offering businesses, it amounts to 40% of the difference in the bill. The EU rules state 30% so we will have to get state aid approval for 40%. That is as far as we can go under the current rules. Those EU rules are there for a reason, namely, to protect taxpayers' money, make sure we do not over-subsidise business and ensure we do not create competitive distortions whereby one government in Spain subsidises its business to a certain amount and the government in Portugal does not. That does not arise so much for us, given our geographical position, but those EU rules are there for good reasons. They may be a little strict. I had a good meeting with the Commissioner for Competition, Margrethe Vestager, last week.

On public procurement I hear what the Deputy says. We want Irish companies, SMEs, to get public contracts. We also want to make sure that projects are completed on time and as inexpensively as possible for taxpayers. That must be borne in mind.

In regard to supermarkets, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, is setting up an office of the food ombudsman which will be an important office. I do not believe that supermarkets are cartels. There is fierce competition among the supermarkets and they employ a great many people. They pay relatively well compared with-----

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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They apply highly unfavourable practices to small, primary producers. I will be happy to talk to the Tánaiste about that.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is the role the food ombudsman will take on. We will see whether primary producers are getting prices similar to what they get in other jurisdictions. That office will be of great help. In regard to the LEEF, as I mentioned earlier, there is a long list of organisations that would like to be on the LEEF. For example, from the union side, only ICTU is on it, and there might be many individual unions and NGOs to represent workers which would also like to be on the LEEF too. It would be a fundamentally different body if we had seven or eight members from business and eight different members from the union side. It is designed to be tight and to have the umbrella organisations on it.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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The 1 million workers represented by the SME community are not represented on the LEEF. With respect, I do not believe they are properly represented on it.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I think the Small Firms Association and Chambers Ireland would disagree.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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I think IBEC has a mandate.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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In regard to the new TBESS there is obviously quite a significant subsidy now to businesses for their energy bills, and rightly so. In the context of these significant subsidies, whereby if a company's energy bills double it may get 20% of the bill paid and if it trebles it will have 26% of the bill paid, is the Minister comfortable that a company could still enforce wage cuts or redundancies, or as was referred to earlier, pay dividends while still in receipt of these significant subsidies from the State for their energy bills?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would not say I am comfortable but it is important to understand what businesses are facing. Even with the support we are going to provide in helping to subsidise their energy bills, there will still be companies facing losses which may have to lay off staff or reduce hours. The subsidy is not so huge that it will make businesses phenomenally wealthy. Businesses face massive increases in their energy bills. They show them to me every two or three days and they have trebled. I realise Senator Sherlock is not suggesting this but I would not like anyone to think that they are going to be sloshing around in money and these nasty businesspeople in top hats are going to smoke their cigars and lay off workers. That is not what is happening here. These businesses are struggling. Even with the support and help from the Government, some of them may have to make difficult decisions about staffing levels.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I am not suggesting for a moment that businesses should not rightfully access these supports if they need them but, in the same vein, if they are accessing supports and still enforcing pay cuts or redundancies, there should surely be some conditionality in the scheme to at least try to prevent that or about the timing of that. Ultimately, while we are trying to save businesses, saving jobs has to be a priority as well. Jobs should not go under this winter. The Labour Party would like to see much greater conditionality in the scheme.

I agree with Deputy Shanahan on procurement because it is not just about supporting indigenous business but also about supporting those businesses that treat their workers decently. A company with a State contract in the Chief State Solicitor's office has taken the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to court. It has had an injunction placed on the Department preventing it from signing the wage agreement for security workers into law. These are low-wage workers. This happened at the end of August. The State did not enter a defence or did not try to contest the injunction. As of ten days ago, the State has effectively sat on its hands and done nothing. We have asked the Minister of State, Deputy English, what is happening on this. He tells us he cannot say anything. Frankly, it is not good enough that the State would not contest an injunction-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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We agreed that the committee would not discuss this matter for the moment.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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We need to hear some assurance that the Department is doing something because there are low-wage workers who are hearing nothing.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I must cut the Senator off there. It is up to the Minister if he wants to respond.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I might ask Ms Coogan to respond.

Ms Tara Coogan:

There are two issues. The Senator is referring to the security industry employment regulation order, ERO. That matter is before the courts and obviously we are in the hands of the court. However, I assure the Senator that the Department is engaging with counsel and legal advice and will take appropriate steps. I will not get into any further details.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Whether we like it or not, sometimes companies that sue the State turn out to be correct in law. If it turns out that there is a flaw in our legislation, we cannot just wave a stick ant somebody and tell them they not allowed to challenge us. Under the Constitution, people are entitled to have recourse to the courts.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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My issue is that the last time I checked the State had not come before the court to contest the injunction but had sat on its hands.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, we have discussed why we are not discussing this.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is where we are.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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That is a significant issue.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is before the courts.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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As much I would personally like to discuss the matter, the committee will not discuss it today because we have agreed not to do so.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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The Minister referenced 20 different energy efficiency schemes. It is clear that comprehensive supports need to be put in place to help companies transition in their energy use. However, the fact there are 20 schemes is alarming. Is a review ongoing in the Department as to the range of schemes? Are these separate schemes? Is there a degree of overlap or deadweight loss?

It looks like the Department set up a scheme that did not work, so it just set up another one. What has happened that we have 20 schemes? It does not look well or right that this is the situation, notwithstanding that companies are very different and have different needs. However, they are not all that different

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There are separate schemes. Some are SEAI, LEOs or Enterprise Ireland. Some are for large companies and others are for small companies. The main thing we want to do is get information out there so that companies know what is available. Some are for energy audits and others are for capital investment. There might be a case for streamlining the schemes. That is one option. Rather than trying to redefine all of the schemes, the important thing is to make sure that they are accessible for businesses and businesses know they are available and take them up.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair for his patience. I want to revisit an issue. I am genuinely not happy about the response I received regarding the issue of European works councils. Reference was made to a couple of complaints. It is much bigger than that. I want to quote from the letter the Minister received from seven of the biggest trade unions in Europe, which states:

When the management of Kingspan denies our right to set up a new WC and when the Irish judicial system fails at allowing our rights to be enforced it is all of the 11,100 Kingspan workers in Belgium, Ireland, Germany, France-----

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Senator should not mention a company.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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No problem. Similar large companies have been named and trade unions make the very same point. There is a problem. The European Commission has launched an infringement notice against the Government because of the problem with the legislation.

I do not understand why the Department has not taken up the suggestion from Kevin Duffy, an incredibly well-respected man, who suggested there is a model to revolve this very easily by using the European Employees (Provision of Information Consultation) Act 2006. There is a model in terms of mediation followed by binding recommendations from the Labour Court that either side can seek. Is there an ideological problem? If there is, it does not run true in terms of the positive comments the Minister has made regarding legislation for collective bargaining. I do not understand why he is not actively taking up that suggestion because clearly there is a problem with the legislation.

Seven trade unions have asked to meet the Minister. That is how seriously they view the issue. I attended a conference with a host of trade unions some months back. This is a massive issue. Will he commit to that request and meet the leaders of the seven largest trade unions in Europe to discuss this issue?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. I do not recall receiving the letter.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I have a copy here. It is dated 27 September.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It may have been diverted to the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, for whom this is his delegated area. I meet union leaders all the time and none of them have raised this with me. It may have been replied to at official level. I will ask Ms Coogan to come in on this.

Ms Tara Coogan:

I do not think I have received or seen that letter. Is it from this year?

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is dated 27 September. It was from the EPSU, the European Transport Workers' Federation-----

Ms Tara Coogan:

I have not received the letter. There is no difficulty meeting people. We are engaging with the Commission. We are engaged in a confidential process and are looking into this matter seriously.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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The problem is that when asked the Minister of State, Deputy English, about this three months ago he gave me the same response, namely, "We are engaging". This has been going on for years. I have a document-----

Ms Tara Coogan:

Complaints have been lodged recently with the Commission. The Commission has written to the Department and we are engaging in a confidential process with it. We are looking into the matter. There are differences in the legal systems in member states, and that can cause some challenges sometimes. We are trying to explain that while the system is not identical to that in the UK and there is a good reason it is not that way, namely because our legal system is different from that of the United Kingdom. We are working through some of these issues.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I wish to follow up on a couple of questions regarding the corporate sustainability and due diligence directive. Colleagues have raised issues in respect of this, and I want to raise two matters with the Minister. The first is access to justice. Will Ireland push the EU to address the fact that the draft directive does not address the barriers victims face when trying to take court cases against EU companies for harms? The draft directive puts the burden of proof for a wide range of evidentiary parts on the claimants. That is hard for victims to prove in court, especially since it requires access to information in the hands of the company.

My second question concerns gender and the directive. Will Ireland push at the EU to address the fact that the draft directive is weak on gender and does not address the harms specifically faced by women? Will Ireland push for a corporate due diligence to conduct gender responsive mandatory human rights due diligence in the directive? For example, there are currently 60 to 70 million garment workers worldwide, 75% of whom are women. The vast majority are engaged in informal employment.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is only a draft directive at this stage. We have a long way to go yet. Again, it is under the COMPET council, which the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, attends rather than me. I will ask Mr. Newham if he wants to add to that.

Mr. John Newham:

I will elaborate on that. Those questions have been put to the Commission and I refer to the previous point around precision being required in the directive. We need to know the exact rights that will be given to workers in respect of access to justice.

Regarding gender, it does not exclude gender but I know the criticism is that gender is not to the fore. The Senator is correct about the garment industry. The counterargument is that 25% of garment industry workers are men and the law applies to all. We have asked stakeholders in our engagement the precise suggestions they would make which we could provide to the Commission. We are awaiting answers on that.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have a local question. I am conscious this is the last time Deputy Varadkar will be before the committee as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I refer to the IDA Ireland site in Clonmel. The Minister met the chief executive of Tipperary County Council a year ago. The site is due to be developed between the county council and IDA Ireland. Due to Clonmel's success, phase 1 of the Questum building is completely full. The companies that started with one person have now expanded to a point where the building is not big enough for them and they need to move or go somewhere else. The quicker phase 2 of the Questum site is completed the better for the region. Clonmel has a history of creating employment to large companies locating in the area. The work done in the local enterprise office by Anthony Fitzgerald and others has made the site a real success. The concern is that when Deputy moves from a ministerial role to that of Taoiseach that he prioritises the site.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is fair to say that Clonmel has a great reputation as a place to invest and grow. We see that with Abbott, Boston Scientific and MSD. It is one of the reasons IDA Ireland acquired new land around Clonmel so that we can get further investment into the town and south Tipperary. We plan, under the regional property programme, to develop that site and make it available, and secure another significant investment for Clonmel and Tipperary. I will keep it on my radar. I know the Senator will make sure I do that, no matter what.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our consideration of this matter. I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter.