Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts, financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. First, the minutes of the meeting of 30 June have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in regard to the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee's web page.

The second item of business is accounts and financial statements. Two sets of financial statements were laid before the Houses between 27 June and 1 July 2022. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address them before I open the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The first set of financial statements is that of the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority for 2021. That is a clear audit opinion. The second set of financial statements is that of the Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg. Its accounting period spans the year from 1 July 2020 to 30 June 2021. It also got a clear audit opinion.

I certified the account on 31 January. It was only presented on 29 June. The committee has correspondence from the Department apologising for the delay on this and explaining that it was a set of financial statements that were being brought to Cabinet and that there was a delay in doing this. That was the reason for the delay in presentation.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There would be something wrong if the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority did not get a clear audit opinion.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We all feel that. Everybody is glad it got a clear audit opinion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed to note the listing of financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the accounts and related statements will be published as part of our minutes.

We will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that are not flagged for discussion at this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee. This is with regard to correspondence being recorded in the minutes of committee meetings and published on the committee's web page.

In the first category of correspondence in which members have flagged items for discussion is No. 1324 B from Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General of the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications. It is dated 23 June and provides information requested by the committee on the updated interim remedial national broadband plan. The Secretary General clarifies that the mechanism by which sanctions are applied under the contract is by way of reduction of subsidy payments to National Broadband Ireland. It is proposed to note and publish the correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Carthy has flagged this for discussion.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has said the national broadband plan is 12 months behind schedule. Eight and a half of those months have been attributed to Covid, which is strange when one considers that works were permissible throughout the Covid period. The correspondence does not indicate whether a sanction has been applied to date regarding the other three and a half months' delay, which the Department accepts is not Covid related. It seems the Department is stating if remedial targets are hit it will not impose a sanction. I request that we seek clarification on whether any penalties have been applied. The target was that 60,000 homes would be passed by the end of 2021. In January, the figure was only 34,000. The most up-to-date figure I have is from mid-June, when 56,600 premises had been passed. This means as of the summer we have not even met the targets set down for the end of last year. It would be useful if we were to receive an update on the current milestones, particularly the number of premises that have been passed to date, and get an update on whether sanctions have been applied.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have sought quarterly updates from the Department. It is aware of the matter. With regard to sanctions, the second part of the letter mentions that for the non-achievement of network builds and associated milestones within the time limit determined in the contract the delay payment arising can only be calculated once the respective milestone is complete. It states that in the event of the non-achievement of performance targets for operating and maintaining the network, financial sanctions will be imposed by way of reduction of future subsidy payments due to National Broadband Ireland. I take it from this that a sanction has not been imposed, but we will seek clarification.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I would infer also. We need to have it clarified. Given the figures it is clear these guys are way off the targets at this point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The original target for premises to be passed by the end of January this year was 115,000. Then the revised plan was 60,000. These are premises to be passed and not connected. The number being connected is far smaller. Something that concerns me is that when the legislation was going through the House, I raised this issue and so did a number of other people with the then Minister, Deputy Bruton. I was given to understand there would be a stand-alone penalty. What this states is that there will be a delay in payment. Given the fact there is leeway for construction inflation we must wonder whether there is any real pressure on National Broadband Ireland and the contractors to expedite this any quicker. If there is room for manoeuvre on construction inflation and they get paid as they complete the works-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

My understanding is that the inflation risk is carried by the contractor, not the State. Therefore, there would be a very strong incentive to accelerate the project as much as possible. I am open to correction on this but it is my-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the information the Department provided us with at the previous hearing.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is what I understand.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will request clarification on whether any penalty has been imposed to date.

No. 1330 B is from Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer of the National Transport Authority, NTA. It is dated 28 June. It provides information requested by the committee on the draft greater Dublin transport strategy for 2022 to 2042. The correspondence states that following the Minister's consideration of the draft strategy a copy will be provided to the committee. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy has flagged this for discussion.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I attended a meeting of the transport committee last week because it was dealing with this specific matter. It had been furnished with a copy of the draft strategy. Its role as part of the consultation process was to discuss it. The NTA was at the meeting. We know how important this is and how important it is if a project is not included. I will give an example from my constituency. The DART+ project is to go to Maynooth. In actual fact it includes railway sheds. There are eight railway sheds to be constructed 350 m from the station in Kilcock. The train line will not go as far as Kilcock. The DART will go to Kilcock but people will not be able to get on a train there. The reason the NTA cannot amend the railway order is because Kilcock was not included in the previous project. There will have to be a separate process so that the current process will not be challenged. It shows the importance of having projects in the plan that make sense. I would have thought that wider involvement in the consultation process rather than restricted involvement would have been the way to go. Given that the strategy covers the period from 2022 to 2042, there is a value in making sure the plan is correct in the first instance and that we do not leave out very obvious measures that should be included.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Deputy has proposal on what we should do on this?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If the Minister approves the draft and we have not seen it, I am concerned about the consultation process. It may well be that we just clarify whether there will be another opportunity to modify it. I presume it will come up for review at some point. There will be measures that have been missed or circumstances will have changed over the time horizon.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will look for the draft to be provided. If it has been provided to the transport committee we will also look for it to be provided to this committee as part of the consultation.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am not sure. I do not think we can be included in the consultation.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we not?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I honestly do not think that that is the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts either. Yet, I am concerned about the consultation. I was at that committee last week. Most of the members who were before the committee will have done their homework and all of that. However, most of them were not from the greater Dublin area. You start wondering whether consultations are a box-ticking exercise or a meaningful engagement. I would have thought, for example, that Deputy Carthy knows Cavan-Monaghan and the Chair knows Laois better than I would. It is the same situation for people who are in the greater Dublin area. I am concerned about the consultation process and things that would be missed.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Deputy Catherine Murphy suggesting that we ask them if there are is another opportunity-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, if there are other opportunities.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----in relation to the consultation process? Individual members of the Committee of Public Accounts can make a-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. I do not think it is a thing initially for the Committee of Public Accounts. We all know that where in theory it can go into a committee, very often issues are missed. Somebody flagged it up to me and I went to the committee. The Chair accommodated me to make the comments I made. I am sure there are others who may have missed that opportunity, because one cannot keep an eye on everything.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is for sure. Okay, we will ask for that.

The next category of correspondence is C, which is from----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we look at R1335?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Deputy.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is in relation to the update on the implementation of our recommendations regarding the children's hospital.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What number is it?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is R1335. I thought that I had it flagged.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am just looking at the screen.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I can hold off until next week, if that is what is easiest. Can we put that on the agenda for next week?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That will be for next week.

The next item is C, which is correspondence from private individuals. Item 1343 is for myself. It has been dated 5 July 2022. It is a request that we make inquiries with the HSE regarding the expenditure on Erkina House, Rathdowney. This follows on from the consideration of an issue raised by Deputy Hourigan last week and our agreement to hold an engagement with the HSE in relation to mental health and expenditure in the community health organisations, CHOs, 4 and 8. This information will help inform that meeting. Is it agreed to request that?

The background to this is that the HSE had decided to close the facility. Very few people seemed to know anything about it, including the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. The Minister of State confirmed on the floor of the House that she was consulted about it and that it required her say-so before it could be closed. There have been significant improvements made to that development. There are 12 very vulnerable people who are living there. It is a great facility in the town of Rathdowny, in south County Laois. The HSE said that they have four such units in Laois-Offaly. If one is going to put two in Laois and two in Offaly, this facility is in the centre of the south of the county and is therefore ideally located. It is on a fabulous site with fantastic gardens. An examination of the site is being undertaken at the moment by the HSE. A relevant point is that we want to try to get a figure for the spend on that building in recent times in order to see how it works. I know that a huge re-roofing was job done in the past year on the building. The building would seem to me to be in good shape. It is a similar situation in some ways to the Owenacurra Centre. This building is certainly a substantial structure and is in good condition. It is important from the committee's point of view that we find out what has been spent to date on it. Is that agreed?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is agreed.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. The final item of correspondence is 1338C, which is dated 23 June 2022. It concerns the wards of court fund. It requests that the committee examine the issue. The correspondence states that there have been substantial losses to the fund and that there is a lack of proper State oversight of the fund, which is in excess of €2 billion.

While the Committee of Public Accounts as of the 31st Dáil, published a report in July 2015, on the wards of court fund, the Committee of Public Accounts of the 32nd Dáil considered the matter. It decided that it was more appropriate that it was under the remit of the then committee on justice and equality and closed its consideration of the matter.

The difficulty is that the fund is not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Therefore, it does not fall within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts. In September 2020, this committee also considered correspondence on the matter. It referred related correspondence that was received from the Department of Justice and from the Courts Service to the correspondent. It advised that its consideration of the matter was closed. It is proposed that we advise the correspondent that it remains the case that matter is most appropriate to the remit of the Joint Committee on Justice, particularly because the fund is not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The correspondent also states that in 2010, the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, assured the Justice for Wards group that legislation was being drafted to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to have oversight of these funds. Matters of legislation are also for that committee.

To try to assist the correspondent, I would suggest that we clarify the position and that we advise that we might wish to bring the matter to the attention of the justice committee. Does any member wish to comment on that item of correspondence?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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First, I thank the correspondent for again bringing these important matters to the attention of the committee. There is a role for this committee, insofar as commitments have been given that the Comptroller and Auditor General would have oversight of what I understand to be more than €2.2 billion in expenditure that the State holds for wards of this nature.

Could the Comptroller and Auditor General could give an update as to whether or not there has been any interaction with his office in respect of this happening? If it has not, I think we should write to the relevant Department, which I understand to be the Department of Justice, to ask if that is still the intention and, if so, the timeframe for same.

We should inform the correspondent of that, as well as the points that the Chair has mentioned. There is also reference to the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) (Amendment) Bill. It highlights some problems there. I understand that Bill is under the remit of health, as opposed to justice. In that vein, perhaps it would be useful if we could also send this correspondence to the health committee, in order to make it aware. It is my understanding that that legislation has gone through the Dáil and is now before the Seanad. However, perhaps the health committee might appreciate this correspondence.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I call Deputy Colm Burke.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Briefly, this is a difficult area in relation to managing funds, because of the problem with the banks. There is also the issue of investment and the risk of investment. It has been a challenging time for everyone in this area. There are no easy answers to it. A lot of money has been invested. There is the issue of careful management.

The other problem that is occurring in relation to the wards of court fund is that for the people who are involved and for whom the funds are put in place, the cost of their care is increasing all the time. Therefore, there are a number of different challenges in this area.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy for that. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General wish to comment?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I thank the Chair. There was an indication that legislation would be brought forward to give me a role in the audit of those funds. That has not progressed. It is my understanding that it was on the foot of analysis by the Office of the Attorney General and that it would not be appropriate for me to be appointed. Effectively, it has not progressed.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who has oversight and audit responsibility for this funding?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The accountant of the courts is basically the person who manages and prepares financial statements. My understanding is they are put out to a commercial auditor to audit the funds and report back to the courts.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There is an investment committee that gives advice on it in advance.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is. That is correct.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The key issue is whether the funds were invested wisely. That is not so much an issue in how the funds were accounted for rather than the investments that have been made, and poor investments that were made that in some cases have left some of the funds seriously depleted. It is a matter of what we should do. I agree with what we are seeking regarding sectoral committees. That aspect appears to be closed off in terms of the Attorney General. Is that because of the separation of powers?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, it is. I think as well the specific prescription in the Constitution for the Comptroller and Auditor General is for the audit of accounts and funds under the authority of the Oireachtas.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Which these are not under.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

All of my clients' funding is statutory in the sense they either collect fees, under law, or they use public funds.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will proceed with the suggestion. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is the work programme, copies of which have been circulated to Members. I am sure there will not be a dull moment. Next week, on 14 July, we will meet An Bord Pleanála, and that will be our last meeting of this sitting term. Following agreement at last week's meeting, the Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage was requested to attend and I understand he has confirmed his availability. Members will recall he did not attend last week due to illness, so I welcome that he will attend.

Last week, we also agreed we would consider our work programme for the next term at today's meeting. At today's meeting we have agreed to schedule an engagement with Horse Racing Ireland to examine its 2020 financial statements. We have also agreed to schedule two engagements that will require the attendance of the Health Service Executive. The first engagement will be on the mental health services in community healthcare organisations, CHOs, 4 and 8. The second engagement will be on emergency services.

Before opening the floor to Members, in terms of our schedule for September and early October, I propose the following: that we consider using our first meeting back to deal with correspondence and any other business, bearing in mind that when we come back, it will be on a Wednesday afternoon and we will have a packed meeting the following morning. Given what has happened in previous years, following the summer period a substantial amount of stuff will need to be dealt with. It may happen that something urgent pops up over the summer period that the committee may have to come together to make a decision on. If that happens we will try to manage that. I just wish to flag that. Is it agreed we use our first meeting in that way?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will there be correspondence?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, there will be correspondence and other business.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The proposal makes sense.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We then have scheduled our first public engagement, which is with Horse Racing Ireland, and we will ask a representative from the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board to attend as well. I do not know whether we should invite Horse Sport Ireland but we will bring in Horse Racing Ireland and the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, if that is agreed.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is agreed. I suggest we be more specific with the IHRB and that it would be the Accounting Officer who would attend.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In addition to the special report the Comptroller and Auditor General is preparing on broadband, are there other reports he is preparing that we should factor into the autumn schedule?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is not a special report on broadband but a chapter, so there will be the usual annual report with a number of chapters in that.

In terms of special reports, the one that is closest to completion is the one on the purchase of ventilators. I expect that one will be available in the autumn. There is also the triennial progress report on the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA. Again, that one is coming to completion. There are a number of others in the works but they are not at a stage where they would be ready for the autumn.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So there are those two.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

And the chapters, obviously.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When is the Comptroller and Auditor General likely to produce that because that will be the main body of our agenda?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Because everything has to kind of arrive together, the appropriation accounts and the report, it is likely to be, as usual, at the end of September.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right, so we have time.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Obviously, we will have to do the first few, but maybe we could leave it after that and consider the report then so that we can see the real things that are coming out of the report that we need to focus on.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I remind the committee that it talked an engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in enough time to influence this year's appropriation accounts circular, the one for 2022. I think there were a number of things, specifically relating to the pay note in appropriation accounts, where suggestions were made as to things that could be looked at. In the engagement with the Accounting Officer when he was here, I think the Deputy asked for the Department to come back with proposals. It might be useful to engage earlier on, let us say in October, on that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I found that engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform one of the most frustrating sessions we have had here. I am not sure we got a whole lot out of it. I was questioning at the end of it what the purpose was of the Department.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe the Deputy could think about what way we handle that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When we are dealing with the expenditure on emergency services, I suggest we raise the issue of the National Ambulance Service with the witnesses because the two issues cannot be separated. There are real problems with the efficiency of services if ambulances are backed up outside of accident and emergency units, with patients in the ambulances for hours. That situation causes problems with how emergency services at hospitals function.

We will have an engagement with the HSE on expenditure on mental health-related services in CHO 4 and CHO 8, and a further engagement to examine its 2021 financial statements, highlighting expenditure on emergency services as an area of particular interest to the committee.

At this point we will not go much further. I suggest we pencil the HSE in somewhere because we have found the HSE is such a big gig, it is very hard to dig into the detail, and I think the committee is at one on this. I have spoken to a few members privately on it, and some of them have raised it with me, that there is a specific piece of work to be done on HSE estates, its properties, sites and what is and is not in use. The HSE is a big outfit and potentially there are a lot of loose ends there. Perhaps the committee would consider that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We know with the ones in Cork, we are looking at CHO 4 specifically in terms of mental health services and the actual facilities.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And Erkina House.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of CHO 8, do we need to go beyond the specific facility the Chairman has spoken about and take a broader look at mental health facilities in that CHO?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The committee would have to devote a session to both of them. I do not know much about CHO 4 but I know a good bit about CHO 8. The committee would have to devote a whole meeting to that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What we are trying to do is get kind of under the bonnet-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is right.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----on a particular area in relation to how services are delivered. What is it that we are seeking? We need to narrow down what it is we are seeking to do. It is a very valuable thing. Sometimes one gets more out of it when one goes granular rather than-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. That meeting could go be taken somewhat like this morning's session, where much of it was taken up with school estates. That whole meeting could have been around that as opposed to just 80%. We need 100% with the HSE because given the scale of the HSE-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I completely accept that and I think it is very valuable to do this. However, there has only been one facility where attention has been drawn in CHO 8. I am presuming there is more. We want to just see if there is a comparison between how the two CHOs handle things, as much as looking at the issue to see whether it is different across the HSE.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is leasing, occupancy, maintenance, spend and all of that. That would be useful. We could-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It seems that the starting point is what the strategy is in relation to the kinds of services that are wanted delivered. After that, it seems there are targets in relation to the level of provision that will be provided for populations. If you like, for example, one could take a population area in CHO 4 or CHO 8, look at what the total objective or strategy for that area and population, and then look at what is in place, the quality of it, the utilisation of it and the plans going forward. Is that the kind of idea-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is. One thing we all talk about is postcode lotteries-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----and whether the census is even used in terms of objective resource allocations and that. There are other issues related to the potential mismanagement or-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Misalignment.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. It is how we get to see how they are managing what there is, whether it is effectively managed and whether there is waste, which is an issue. We are looking at waste but also talking about delivery of a service.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

An awful lot of those kinds of services are done with what is called a spatial analysis. There is a map that shows where people are living, which comes out of the census, and it can then be overlaid on that where the services are delivered and whether the two things are matched up. Catchment areas can also be designed around individual facilities and see whether there a match. For example, in one facility there might be eight beds for a particular population and another facility serving a bigger population might have 16 beds. That partially answers the kind of-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What they want can change from time to time. I know from the most recent meeting we had with HSE management that at the present time, a ten- to 12-bed unit is what seems to be the optimum in terms of what works.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think that was in the strategy - ten- to 12-bed units for a population of 100,000 or whatever the figure is.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is also suitability of locations. Obviously, if these facilities are put on the side of a busy road where there are no shops, it is an issue, because people who are somehow independent and will go to a local shop if it is close by may be stuck out in the suburbs somewhere, so there is all of that to consider. I suggest from this discussion, if it is agreed, that we hold a meeting on HSE estates and mental health facilities in those two areas. That might be the way forward. We will leave it at that. However, if we need to tweak that a bit, we can, but just for now we will go with that.

Members will be aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021 will be available at the end of September. They might want to prioritise further areas of examination once we have sight of that. We will see how we go with that, but we need to pencil something in to start off with. The secretariat and guests as well, in fairness to them, need a month to prepare. We need to be looking kind of six weeks out. We need to have an idea of where we are going six or seven weeks out. That has worked well over this year, if members are happy enough with that.

Are there any other matters that members wish to raise in relation to our programme? No. That concludes the consideration of our programme for today. The last item on the public agenda today is any other business. Are there any other matters that members wish to raise? No. The meeting of the Committee on Public Accounts stands adjourned until 14 July, when we will engage with An Bord Pleanála.