Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for attending and for their presentations. All present appreciate and feel the injustice of what happened in the Debenhams case and in previous cases. It seems to me that part of what happened in those cases was that resources that ought to have been available to the company to meet its responsibilities were put beyond reach. That is not what we are addressing here, but am I wrong in thinking that was the root issue? The real issue was that the process one would normally expect employees to access to exercise their preferential rights had been undermined in that way. I know there have been attempts to address that aspect of company law.

On the legislation, are there precedents, either in Irish law or in legislation in other jurisdictions, for an arrangement of the sort proposed in the Bill whereby the State, not having been party to the original agreement, would be bound in the event of insolvency? It is not impossible to foresee situations where the State would feel it and the taxpayer were being unfairly exposed in such situations, not having had involvement in how the original agreement was put together. I am trying to explore that. Is there precedent for this sort of arrangement? It seems to be an unusual solution to a problem that all present recognise has arisen in these cases.

What is the view of ICTU on the point being made by IBEC that the State normally legislates for all workers rather than creating a legal commitment on behalf of the State that differentiates in different situations? This will eventually come from the State because it has to pay up. Does ICTU consider that to be a valid argument? How are we to take that argument? It is worth trying to tease out, from both sides, what we are to make of the exceptional nature of what is being proposed here. It is clear that it is a well-intended solution to the problem but is it workable in practice or does it have questionable elements? I would like to hear more from both sides on that issue, and that of precedents elsewhere.