Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. A key tenet of this Bill is to make sure that we protect the autonomy of our institutions. That is really important. To ensure that happens, we need to make sure that we improve internal governance, and this Bill is trying to do that.

At the outset, and I want to be really clear on this, people who serve on governing authorities are doing so for the public good. They do not get a cent. These are non-remunerated positions. This is the definition of public service. They work hard and they do a good job. None of what I am about to say is in any way a criticism of people who serve on governing authorities. In my time as Minister, I have had the honour and pleasure of appointing many excellent people to governing authorities.

However, some governing authorities have 40 people on them. I do not believe that is effective for oversight. I definitely do not think that it is effective for the CEO of an organisation to also be chairperson of the board, so that they can ask themselves if they are doing a good job. I do not think that works. I cannot think of a comparable situation, although the HSE used to be like that for a brief period of time, where there is an idea that the chairperson is also the CEO. We are therefore trying to make sure that there external chair. The Deputy is right that there are differences for Trinity College Dublin. We will get to the Trinity section in a minute, if I may call it that. However, there are legal differences around Trinity. We are trying to respond to those differences, while also bringing about the reform.

The Deputy is correct to say that there is not one magic number - although I am not sure if she used the word “magic” - and why the figure should be 17, rather than 18 or 15, etc. I do take that point. However, a consistency of approach across the sector is what we are trying to achieve. There is not one magic number and it is an arbitrary decision as to how one lands at a number. That is not incorrect. However, the purpose here is to agree a composition that can work for the sector, that can make sure it has access to the expertise it requires, that makes sure that the staff voice and the student voice are still there and that there is an external majority. I see this as a strength for the institutions. If we take Atlantic Technological University as an example, and the Deputy rightly raised it, involving external voices will strengthen and embed the university more in a region.

This idea of reforming the governing authorities was not mine. I cannot take credit for it. It has been recommended in the National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030. I am not sure that there is an issue that has been consulted on more than this issue. I think even the sector itself would acknowledge it, although I cannot speak for it. I know their representative bodies - such as the university representative bodies, technological universities or institutes of technology - would all accept that there needs to be change and reform in the composition of governing authorities. In meetings I have had with them, that has not been the debating point. They have wanted to get the composition right. I think I am accurate in saying that they all accept there needs to be a change in the composition. Certainly, that was the distinct impression that I got.

The provisional smaller competency-based governing authorities is a vital part of the overall reform of the Higher Education Authority Act. I accept that the Deputy and I have differences of view on this, but that is why I cannot accept amendments Nos. 150 and 230.

Amendment No. 151 is in the name of Deputy Ó Ríordáin. The Deputy has not yet spoken to it.