Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to go back to the amendments but I acknowledged Deputy Ó Cathasaigh's work on the amendments he put forward and my intention to provide additional clarity and assurance with guidelines, and what that might look like, in advance of Report Stage. I also indicated that I will endeavour to come back with greater definitions around sustainability. I will put on the record that I will work closely with Deputy Ó Cathasaigh and others between now and Report Stage on that matter.

On section 38 more broadly, I flag to the committee that my Department continues to engage with the Central Statistics Office on how borrowing for this sector is treated in terms of money being on and off balance sheet. It is a broader point but it is important to say that while we are on section 38 of the Bill.

To be clear, the policy intent of the Bill is not to change in any way, shape or form the existing principle of "comply or explain". That is for the reasons Deputies Ó Ríordáin and Conway-Walsh outlined in terms of the autonomy of institutions and diversity. I genuinely get that. Already, though, with the existing principle of "comply or explain", the HEA must agree the explanation with the designated institution of higher education for a derogation from a guideline, code or policy to apply. If a guideline or code is not complied with, the CEO would view the explanation and a reasonable explanation would be accepted by the HEA.

I have engaged intensively with the sector on this and I would not like to change the current principle beyond "comply or explain" or accidentally dilute it. I would not like to have a "comply or explain" process and if you do not like the explanation, goodnight and good luck. This would accidentally diminish the process, and that is not what the sector wants to do either. I have looked at this quite extensively but I am satisfied, in regard to the proposed amendments, that the current policy intent is in line with the existing policy of "comply or explain". I have no doubt the Deputies will return to this on Report Stage because it is important for the sector. That is my view.

This amendment is grouped with amendments Nos. 157 and 169, which are in my name. The purpose of these amendments is to clarify that the obligation of the governing body of a technological university is to have appropriate systems, procedures and practices in place in order to implement and report on compliance with the policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government to the extent that those policies may affect or relate to the function of the university or technological university. The wording has been amended from "enable compliance" with the policies to "implement and report on compliance" to more accurately reflect the policy intent. To be clear, there is no intended change with regard to policy intent in the subsection. Amendments Nos. 158 and 170 are covered by amendments Nos. 157 and 169, if I might put it like that.

Amendments Nos. 204 and 208 propose to remove the provision that the Minister may give a direction in writing to the HEA to prepare guidelines, codes or policies, and the HEA shall comply with the direction with a new provision. The proposed new provision provides that the Minister shall provide a draft of a direction to the HEA and the HEA may make submissions to the Minister on the draft direction, and the Minister shall consider any submission received. The new provision also provides, as we previously discussed, that the direction shall be published. I am satisfied with the provisions relating to directions as currently reflected in the Bill. I do not propose to accept other amendments to this section.