Mr. Raymond McCord:

There are a couple of other points in talking about victims' groups and funded groups. The Ballymurphy families have been fighting for years and they should not have had to do that. It is a classic case and it defeats any argument the British Government would put up for truth and justice and helping to move on. There is the idea that people want closure but I do not know what closure means. If people were convicted today for my son's murder, I still would not have closure for my son.

There is funding for victims' groups, and some of them are large groups that may be deemed nationalist or unionist. That should not be happening. Some of them are deemed to be close to political parties, and that should not be happening. I do not have a problem with any victims but there is talk about equality. If there is taxpayer funding, or if it comes from Dublin or the European Union, the employees in an organisation should be split 50-50. There was talk of bringing the Police Service of Northern Ireland to 50-50 but people in the unionist community would have objected; the majority of others would have said it could be done. Why should the employees of funded victims' groups not be split 50-50? The narrative flowing from them would then be a victim narrative rather than a unionist or republican narrative.

There are groups that are linked to Sinn Féin and the Democratic Unionist Party, and that should not be happening because political labels are put on victims. That is what happens when these political parties associate with the groups. We can look at the funding of the employees, of which there may be five or ten in different offices. What is the religious breakdown of those people? Statements have come out from the groups, and without mentioning names, I can refer to one from Belfast and see it comes from such and such a group. That should not happen. This should be about victims. We speak about a victim-led or victim-centred process. There are people in the victims' group "sector" - that is a terrible word - who do not want change. They want to keep it the way it is. When funding comes, if they stick to their narrative, certain political parties will help them get funding. That should not be happening.

We have come down here and we have insisted all along that victims' conferences be arranged in Belfast. I have organised something like nine of them and we had a professor from Queen's University who was a member of the Green Party. The only thing we stipulate is that no paramilitaries are allowed to attend and there should be no political speeches that lay blame on this party or that. There must be no sectarianism. It is an open house otherwise, and this has worked. We have brought in young people and given them a voice, and other people do not do this. They have their own narrative. We have one type of narrative, and it is a victims' narrative.

We asked questions yesterday and we ask more today. We ask the Irish Government what will happen if British Prime Minister Boris Johnson goes ahead and brings into the British Parliament this Bill and it passes. We would like to know what the Irish Government is going to do. There are some who ask what we would like to say. It is very simple. At the end of the day, it is about money for the British Government when it makes decisions about certain issues. This is about cover-up and money. In truth, I would like to see the Irish Government bring victims to Washington DC to sit down with the US President and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Ms Nancy Pelosi. I have been in Washington several times, as I said, thanks to Fr. Sean McManus and the Irish National Caucus. I would like them to listen to us and let them see that the Irish Government supports both unionist and nationalist victims. There should be an indication that if these proposals are to be made law, there will be no trade deal between Britain and America. It is one of the only ways to guarantee that this process will stop, that is, if it hits the pockets in London.

It is said there are people who will otherwise resort to violence but there is violence within the unionist community now. There are guns that were supposed to be given up. I do not hear the politicians in our community asking why the guns are still here, and groups are still being given funding. The Ulster Volunteer Force wants £10 million to go away and that is 24 years after the Good Friday Agreement. How much longer will money be provided to gangsters? That is all they are. They use the term "loyalist" but for me that means somebody should be loyal to a country and its rules and statutes. These people do not do that. They are criminals.

A former policeman said to me that people talk about loyalism but why not use the term we use when we are sitting and having a pint? They are gangsters and criminals. Unfortunately, people are still giving them money. We can make suggestions to politicians in Dublin but what is done might be different. We would like to get assurances through the Good Friday Agreement and we want the Good Friday Agreement to stay. Other people might take issue with it but our problem with it is that it has failed victims. Within the unionist community, it has helped to ensure that gangsters still stay in our community with guns, rackets and drugs. I believe one of the elements of the Good Friday Agreement was to seek to stop all this and for those people to go away. There are people involved with this committee from North and South who want that to stop.

After what happened to the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Simon Coveney, I promised people I would say the following. I would like to see every penny stopped that goes to the UVF-Progressive Unionist Party initiative. There is also the Action for Community Transformation initiative that has different offices. These are fancy titles but every penny should be stopped. Let us stop the funding for six months and see what happens if people are going to lose their jobs. Tell that to people who initiated a bomb hoax in north Belfast when a man was coming there. He was not an aggressive man, like the pound shop lawyer said. I met the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and he was a gentleman to us, the same as the Taoiseach. We met him yesterday and he stood with us.

We shook hands. Again, invitations were given to come to Belfast. I am saying this plain and simple. I cannot be any clearer. Stop all funding and money going to the Ulster Volunteer Force, UVF, the Progressive Unionist Party, PUP, or any loyalist group and see how long it is before they want to go back to violence once the money and funding is stopped. They say they are doing community work. What community work are they doing? Their community work is about asking how much they can make from drugs this week; how much money can they take off the shops for extortion? These are the people who are getting funding.