Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our second session involves a review of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010. We will hear from Mr. Conor Brennan. Dogs Trust Ireland made an opening statement in our first session, so we will now go straight to questions.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Brennan for addressing the issue of dog breeding. We still hope the Department will come before the committee to discuss the matter. One of the issues for the agriculture committee is that this issue falls under a different Department, so we have requested that the Department of Rural and Community Development, when it is available, come before the committee. That leads me to my first question. How important is it that all these animal welfare issues are brought in under the one Department? Does Mr. Brennan think that is necessary? Would that help things?

I would like Mr. Brennan to elaborate on a second issue. We are hearing that the dog breeding establishments legislation will be updated and we are promised that will require changes to the legislation. Would the current guidelines be fit for purpose if they were brought into primary legislation or do they need to change? I refer to the comments in Dogs Trust Ireland's opening statement on mechanisation and non-human supervision. Perhaps for the benefit of people listening in or those who might not be aware of how industrial these operations are, what exactly is Dogs Trust Ireland talking about when it refers to non-human supervision and mechanisation?

What happens to the breeding bitches when they have fulfilled their job on these farms? Does the number of litters they can have need to be capped, in Mr. Brennan's view?

Another issue is the illegal farming. If we were to get everything to do with the regulations right, bring in the guidelines and have the staff ratio and so on corrected, would that just drive illegal farming underground? How do we address the illegal farms in operation at present?

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Brennan, you have a load of questions.

Mr. Conor Brennan:

Indeed.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have loads of time.

Mr. Conor Brennan:

I thank the Senator for her list of questions and for looking at this issue. I know it does not fall under the remit of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, but we very much welcome that this committee is addressing the issue. It is to be hoped the Department will come before the committee to discuss it.

Dogs Trust is looking for joined-up thinking across the issue of the different pieces of legislation. The question is whether that is the end goal. It is a matter of Departments, particularly the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Rural and Community Development, looking to work together. At present they are looking at different legislation across the issue. They are reviewing all the key legislation. From what we have seen, however, that has not quite transpired, so there is increasingly a lot of merit in this legislation falling under one Department, whichever it may be. I stress that we are looking for an end result whereby there is joined-up thinking, but if the matter comes under one Department and that is what helps to bring this to fruition, all the better. We would support that.

The guidelines were very welcome when they came out in 2018. There is a lot of very good advice for the inspectors, for example, and on what dog breeding establishments should do within the guidelines. I refer to hygiene, diet, clean water and so forth. The problem is they are guidelines. We would love to see them put on a statutory footing. The one key issue within the guidelines I will raise is one that was referred to in our opening statement, that is, the ratio of one staff member to 25 breeding bitches. That is completely untenable. There could be 150 dogs and one full-time staff member. That is a key issue within the guidelines and it needs to be addressed. It points to some of Senator Boylan's other questions. From having talked to the Department, we understand that even the idea of one full-time staff member to ten breeding bitches can be entertained, but that is a bare minimum. Dogs Trust recommends one full-time staff member to seven dogs, not just breeding bitches, that is, one full-time staff member to three whelping wards. That will give the committee an idea of the gap in standards that may exist in respect of dog breeding establishments.

It also points to Senator Boylan's question about mechanisation and non-human supervision. To give the committee an idea of what is required, humans are needed in socialisation and habituation of dogs as well as in making sure there is no spread of disease and dogs are not in cramped settings and in their own excrement. Those are the things on which humans need to interact with dogs. They need to clean particular types of dogs in particular settings. Automation and mechanisation does not bode well for the needs of particular dogs. We would warn against that.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Brennan referring to automated feeding and-----

Mr. Conor Brennan:

Yes, exactly. Automated feeding and cleaning are the main types of automation that are emerging. The Department may be coming at this from the point of view that it does not want to inhibit advancements in technology, but we would warn sternly against that because dogs, by their nature, need socialisation, playtime and so forth. That is where we come at it from.

As for puppy farms and illegal puppy farming, the Dog Breeding Establishments Act, I think, was seen as a means of ensuring there is a licensing business. It was a baby step. We had promises from the Minister and the programme for Government. There was a recognition it was not in line with the modern perception of dog breeding. A licence is needed only for more than five breeding bitches, for one thing. There is a real need to strengthen the legislation. Regardless of whether that would drive illegal farming underground, the concern should be whether the legitimate dog breeding establishments would have good welfare practices in line with the primary legislation. That is the first port of call. Addressing whether the practice would go underground follows, but strengthening the legislation needs to be a priority.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The strengthening of the legislation leads on to my next point. Dogs Trust has been before the committee previously to discuss the online sale and supply of pets and the need for information on that to be correct. If that were lined up as well, someone trying to advertise dogs would be linked back to where the dogs were bred.

It is the local authorities that license dog breeding establishments. They give out the licences. That is my understanding. One of the problems we see repeatedly is getting access to those dog breeding establishment licences and getting access to the information on them. I carried out an exercise whereby I contacted all the local authorities about this. I went onto their websites first. In lieu of legislation, in the very short term, should the Minister responsible for local government tell the local authorities they need to have the dog breeding establishments on their websites, easily accessible, and listing the number of breeding bitches as a first, very basic step? That would then allow people to check if the information is in the advert in the first place.

I have more questions concerning local authorities and inspections. If Mr. Dowling wishes to write to the committee in response to any of them, that would be great. I understand the inspections are carried out by local authorities. Are the local authorities resourced for that? Is there a scattergun approach where some local authorities are very good but some are not? Even though I am more likely to get a response than a member of the public, I have found it really hard to get information from local authorities about the number of inspections that have been carried out, the number of findings and whether a DBE has been closed down. I am interested in hearing Mr. Brennan's view of the responsibilities that lie with local authorities in this area.

Mr. Conor Brennan:

Local authorities play a key role in enforcement. On the data piece, within the legislation, they must hold the records and make them available. That is in its vaguest terms. We would definitely see that a modernisation of the Act requires making data digital, accessible and available. It is also key that there is an option to cross-check data, as the Senator described, against other databases. It comes full circle and feeds into the new rules on the online supply of pet animals where, if one has a DBE licence, one gives the number. What this does is empower the public. Where there is a DBE registered licenceholder, members of the public can check where the DBE is, or its general vicinity, and they should be able to check how many breeding bitches there are and how many dogs are coming out of the dog breeding establishment. It means that if members of the public choose to buy a dog, they know where the dog is coming from and they should know that the welfare standards are being upheld.

Inspections are key. The Senator is right that there is an uneven standard across the country. Local authorities have inspections. It is important to stress that the guidelines contain a recognition that inspections can be unannounced apart from maybe the initial inspection of the premises. Local authorities use that power. The provision goes back to what is contained in primary legislation. The guidelines, placed on a statutory footing, empower the inspector to say that this is in legislation and these are the hygiene standards, dietary standards and so forth. That is important as it helps local authorities and inspectors.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the suggestions is that the legislation be amended to allow authorised officers, under the Animal Health and Welfare Act, to carry out inspections. Would that help? That would alleviate some of the pressure on local authorities if they are under-resourced. Obviously, we must bear in mind that we would have to resource the authorised officers to carry out inspections. Such a change would give inspections a more independent nature and the inspections would be more on a national basis.

Is there a cap on the number of litters allowed at a dog breeding establishment? Can the witnesses tell us their experience of what happens to breeding bitches when they are finished breeding?

Mr. Conor Brennan:

The local authorities are best placed to say if their inspection role can be expanded and if there is a more independent role. Overseeing how inspections are done on a more national level, coming to the end result where there is a more standardised system of inspections would be very welcome. If there was an overseeing body or if it was outsourced, that would be welcome.

There is no cap on the number of litters. There is guidance around staff who must adhere to the provisions of the DBE Act, as well as the Animal Health and Welfare Act to ensure there is no animal cruelty. Breeding bitches can be destroyed.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are breeding bitches euthanised rather than rehomed when they are finished breeding?

Mr. Conor Brennan:

I will clarify the matter. If I am being perfectly honest, I am not at liberty to say exactly what happens in some of the DBEs.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Brennan's point about the socialisation of animals was really well made. I know from my business that the more bovines are socialised, the more placid they become. Socialisation works and needs to be enforced.

On the input of local authorities, some local authorities farm out veterinary functions to other local authorities. Cork County Council does work in this area in Cork City Council. Is there a real difference in standards among local authorities regarding practices and their commitment to this issue?

Mr. Conor Brennan:

I will not speak to their commitment. What we see on the face of it is that it is extremely uneven across the board, particularly with regard to the availability of data, which we are quite interested in as they give sight of the number of DBEs and should give sight of the number of breeding bitches. Only about 50% of local authorities provide that information on their websites but that may be due to a resourcing issue. We would welcome local authorities being helped to reach the standard where third parties and the public can be helped and have full knowledge of the information.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Brennan mentioned that this legislation crosses different bodies and Departments. We are dealing with local government and local authorities. This committee deals with agriculture and rural affairs come into this to some degree as well. It is a mishmash of at least three Departments. Is the right home for this matter with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Should it have the full remit for this issue, from start to finish? Should it take the lead on it? What is the right body to lead this matter going forward?

Mr. Conor Brennan:

I do not have a strong opinion of exactly where this matter sits. I completely agree that it is siloed in pieces. The DBE Act and Control of Dogs Act is are with the Department of Rural and Community Development, while the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine deals with the Animal Health and Welfare Act and online sales. This matter is really nearly split away and I do not have a strong opinion on where it sits. Our opinion is that it would be better if one Department considered this matter in the round.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Brennan indicated that the guidelines state that the ratio for the number of breeding bitches is 1:25. What is his view on how big puppy farms can be allowed to get? The DSPCA told us that the Irish Kennel Club would say people can make a decent living out of 30 breeding bitches, which still seems a lot. Given that some establishments have 100 breeding bitches, does Dogs Trust have a view on the matter?

Is there a need to tighten up on the DBE regulations and all of the data generated between microchipping, online sales and a database on dog breeding? How useful would that be to Revenue?

Mr. Conor Brennan:

On the number of breeding bitches, we come at it from the angle of welfare standards and the staff-to-dog ratio is not up to scratch at the moment. We would really like to see that matter given consideration.

To be honest, the Department is looking at reviewing the Dog Breeding Establishments Act. That is a great opportunity to look ahead and modernise the legislation, Ireland could be a front runner in dog welfare and have dog breeding establishments with extremely high welfare standards.

Ireland could be known for that in the future and this is the opportunity. The standards of welfare and engagement with staff on the ground are the key aspects we are looking at rather than the cap.

On the Senator's second question, yes, absolutely. Another thing I will mention on the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 is that information shared by the licence-holder should include a tax and registration number. I think it should be fully transparent for Revenue maybe looking at dog breeding establishments as a business but also being able to cross-check against databases. These Departments should really help themselves here in how they can access some of this information. We would welcome that.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Brennan.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Brennan for his time and wonderful testimony this afternoon. I thank everyone for their participation today. We will now adjourn. The next public meeting of the committee will be on Wednesday, 13 April at 9 a.m. Members should please note the earlier time. The committee will undertake meetings on that day to discuss matters including challenges facing the forestry and pig sectors and fixed milk price contracts.