Mr. Tony Donohoe:

I agree with everything Mr. McDonnell said about the NTF . I was never convinced of the arguments around the EU fiscal rules at the time either. The money is unspent money that was collected from employers to be spent on upskilling in the workplace. That is how it should be used. There are many really good programmes - Skillnet, for example, is an employer-led upskilling programme — that are underfunded, yet the money is still sitting in the fund. It does not make any sense to me.

On the student loan model, it is important that we get back to first principles on this. Anybody with the motivation and aptitude to pursue higher education or, indeed, further education should be enabled to do so. That is the starting point. There should be a grant system that supports people. It is not an issue of fees alone; it is also about the associated costs. We have got the worst of both worlds now. We have got the €3,000 contribution from half the student population or, more accurately, their families. Particularly if a family has more than one child going to third level, the contribution does not cover the costs. We have an underfunded system, so we have got the worst of both worlds. I do not think the system can be totally funded by the State. A way of ensuring industry involvement, benefactor investment and research investment is to have excellent institutions.

That brings me on to the specific question on the measurement of risk. One cannot put numbers on this. There are some contestable aspects such as the rankings. People can quite cogently argue against them but they exist nevertheless and can damage our reputation. When companies look at the education profile of Ireland, they see we have a high progression rate to higher education, which is great, but our institutions are not performing well. One of the key metrics of performance is the staff–student ratio. If the ratio has increased from what I think was 17:1 to 21:1, it is another metric to be considered. None of these metrics are perfect but they build a picture over time. This matter is not like a crisis in the health sector, for example. It does not capture the headlines like trolley numbers and waiting lists but it is no less invidious. It just takes longer for the results of underinvestment to be shown.