Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Today is our fourth meeting in a series of meetings on urban and rural regeneration. We are joined from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage by Ms Maria Graham, assistant secretary, and Mr. Stewart Logan, senior planning adviser. Ms Lisa Clifford, from the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, section of the Department joins us remotely. From the Department of Rural and Community Development we are joined remotely by Mr. Fintan O'Brien, assistant secretary; Mr. Eddie Forsyth from the rural fund and corporate support unit; and Mr. J.P. Mulherin, from the rural programmes and policies unit. We have circulated the opening statements to the members.

I will outline what the committee has done so far. We have had a series of meetings. We agreed to discuss dereliction and vacancy and a number of related areas such as compulsory purchase order, CPO, transport-orientated development and how we can bring life and vitality to rejuvenate our towns and villages. In this fourth meeting we will discuss another important aspect, that of central government funding to support policies such as Town Centre First and Our Rural Future and also to support many of the measures that are outlined in the Housing for All strategy. Central government funding is critical to that. We recognise that not all funding for our towns and villages will come from central government. There will also be private investment and they will all work together to regenerate.

I am delighted the witnesses have joined us. I and other members are former local authority members. The URDF and the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, announcements are always a time of great interest and excitement at local authority level because they have done some fantastic work out there. We have all seen that in our constituencies in the few years since the funding was introduced.

I will ask the witnesses to make their opening statements and members will then be invited to address questions to them. We will limit it to seven minutes for each interaction involving questions and answers.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in the public meetings. For witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House complex, there are some limits to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity to legal proceedings as a person who is physically present in the Leinster House complex does. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The opening statements will be available on the Oireachtas website after the meeting.

I apologise to witnesses for the late start to the meeting. We had a vote in the Chamber and then a roll call was sought on that vote which delayed us all. Some members are still in the Chamber, but they will join us when they finish there. I invite Ms Graham from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make her opening statement.

Ms Maria Graham:

I am grateful for the invitation to expand on the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, which was touched on in my statement to the committee on 25 January. As the Chairman mentioned, I am joined by Ms Lisa Clifford, principal officer in the URDF section, and Mr. Stewart Logan, senior planning adviser.

As members have the full statement which contains some examples, I might just focus on the key points now. Since our last appearance before the committee, the Government has launched the Town Centre First policy, which provides an important enabling framework for the development of towns. While towns face many challenges, there are also many opportunities to reimagine and revitalise many areas. A number of structures are being put in place to lead and support this initiative, which is fundamentally about enabling towns and their communities to define the vision for the future of their town. We are working with colleagues in the Department of Rural and Community Development to implement this policy.

For towns with populations of over 10,000, the URDF provides an important source of funding to realise these ambitions. The URDF is one of the four funds launched in 2018 as part of Project Ireland 2040 and the national development plan, and is specifically focused on implementing the national planning framework and that alignment of special and investment plans to deliver on a timely basis the investment required to provide the housing, jobs and infrastructure of the present and future population which is likely to increase by 1 million by 2040.

The URDF has proved to be a game changer in the promotion of co-ordinated investment in the renewal and redevelopment of cities and towns. Under the NDP review published last year, a commitment was made to extend the time of the fund from 2027 out to 2030. It is a €2 billion fund and there will be an associated additional investment for that extra period.

There have been two calls to date. Over €300 million was allocated to 87 projects in call 1. Many of these were master planning and initial kick-off projects. A total of 45 projects got €1.3 billion in funding approved under call 2. There were some delays to project roll-out because they were impacted by the Covid-19 construction restrictions.

Activity is now increasing and we expect the build to increase significantly in the coming years.

I will focus on cities and towns, in particular. Many of the very high value projects have been approved for metropolitan areas. They are projects of significant scale. In total €1.286 billion has been approved for metropolitan areas and key driver towns. Some examples, such as the Cork docklands, are set out in the statement. It would be true to say that both the nature and the scale of the projects and the funding approach are transformative. It provides an integrated, dynamic and responsive way to underpin the national planning framework with a particular focus on compact growth. The approach brings together a number of strands of public investment, such as transport and water services, to deliver an overall integrated urban development proposal. As the Chairman said, the projects deliver new energy, new life and opportunities for economic activity and residential development in parts of cities with high levels of dereliction, under-use and a need for transformative change.

In addition, €330 million has also been approved for projects in towns under the URDF to date, supporting a wide range of projects which are catalysts for change. Again, a couple of examples are set out in the statement as an illustration. The Department has been very impressed by the richness and diversity of projects put forward by local authorities under the URDF. We have supported the application stage through the hosting of workshops, including one hosted by the IDA, given the importance of place making to the economic vibrancy of towns and the offering they can make in enterprise and employment terms.

In regard to the funding approach, projects are initially examined by a project appraisal board which is chaired by the Department and by Ms Clifford, who is with us. That comprises a range of funding Departments and external expertise. This is a very useful step in ensuring proposals meet the fund criteria and provide additionality to other funding streams. As set out in the NDP review and reflecting our experience to date, the next rounds of funding will separately target cities and towns given the different needs and scales of projects. The next call will be for projects in towns later this year and it will align with the Town Centre First policy launched in February. The criteria will also specifically identify the tackling of vacancy, as outlined in Housing for All and Town Centre First to encourage the activation of vacant properties. The Department will also move from a competitive call basis, which was a feature of the funding to date and was important in the early stage, to now work with local authorities to bring the next generation of projects forward and ensure a steady pipeline of suitable projects. It will also ensure there is a good spread geographically of those projects, particularly in the light of the Town Centre First plans that will be emerging in towns around the country and to ensure the activation of residential development in strategic areas.

The combination of policies through Town Centre First reflecting the objectives of the national planning framework, matched with substantial funding available through the URDF, gives a real opportunity to deliver improvements to the liveability of cities and towns and make a real difference to the social and economic sustainability and development. We are happy to take any questions that committee members may have.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for their invitation to the meeting today. I understand the committee is holding a series of meetings relating to urban and rural regeneration, so we are happy to be here today to discuss our Department’s role in relation to the rural element of that discussion. I am joined today by two colleagues, Mr. J.P. Mulherin and Mr. Eddie Forsyth, both of whom are principal officers in the Department of Rural and Community Development with responsibility for policies and schemes which are of direct relevance to the matters being discussed by the committee.

As a starting point for the discussion I am sure the committee members are aware that Our Rural Future, the national rural development plan for 2021 to 2025, was published last year. The policy clearly recognises that not all rural areas are identical and that individual towns, villages and parishes differ significantly. Our approach to rural development and regeneration must take account of this reality.

The policy also sets out the challenges and opportunities that face rural Ireland and includes a range of actions for delivery over the period of the policy which aims to deliver on the policy’s stated vision of a thriving rural Ireland which is integral to our national economic, social, cultural and environmental well-being and development. The policy also recognises the interdependence of urban and rural areas, the centrality of people and the importance of vibrant and lived-in rural places. The policy importantly provides a framework for the significant level of current and future investment in rural Ireland.

From this Department’s perspective the main elements of this funding which will be of relevance to today’s discussion with the committee are contained in the rural development investment programme, RDIP. The schemes included in that investment programme are the EU co-funded LEADER programme, which has been successfully implemented in Ireland over 30 years; the CLÁR programme, which has been launched this year with a €7 million budget and which provides funding for small scale infrastructural projects in certain designated rural areas; the local improvement scheme, which has a budget of €11 million in 2022 to support the improvement of non-public roads in rural communities and improve access to rural farms and homes; the outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme, which has also recently been launched for 2022 with a budget of €15 million; the town and village renewal scheme, which will be launched shortly for 2022 and will include support for streetscape enhancements and key priorities such as the development of remote network facilities, the regeneration of disused buildings for community use; and the Rural Regeneration Development Fund, RRDF, which to date has delivered funding of €278 million over a total of 191 projects.

I understand that the town and village renewal scheme and the RRDF may be of particular interest to members of the committee in the context of today’s discussion and we would be happy to provide any further detail required on these two schemes.

The town and village renewal scheme and the RRDF are also closely linked to another recent policy development which Ms Graham mentioned, namely, the publication of the Town Centre First policy. This policy was developed jointly by the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and drew on the input of a wide range of expert stakeholders in its development. The policy sets out to address many of the issues which the committee may have been discussing in its recent deliberations and it includes a range of 33 actions which seek to tackle issues such as vacancy and dereliction and to give our towns the tools and resources they require in order to regenerate themselves as viable and attractive places in which people and families can live, work and run a business.

As referenced at the beginning of my remarks, no two rural areas are identical and the Town Centre First policy clearly recognises the role of locally led town teams in developing plans that recognise their own circumstances, challenges and opportunities. The initial financial supports are in place to support the roll-out of the Town Centre First policy, for example, funding has been provided for the first tranche of 26 towns to develop their own Town Centre First plans and arrangements are currently being finalised to put in place the local town regeneration officers who will play a key co-ordinating and leadership role in local authorities throughout the country and for establishing the national delivery structures that will ensure momentum and coherence in implementation of the policy.

I am conscious that my opening remarks represent a very brief overview of some of the key areas of intervention by the Department of Rural and Community Development. My colleagues and I will be very happy to answer any questions that members of the committee may have and to provide any further detail which may be required.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. O'Brien. I have a question. The town and village renewal scheme is applicable to towns with populations of less than 10,000, is that correct?

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

Yes, it is for towns with populations of less than 10,000, and value-wise under €500,000.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today and for all the work they do. We are delighted they are contributing to our consideration of urban and rural regeneration. I will focus my initial round of questions on the urban. Hopefully I will get an opportunity to come back in later. We have a strict time limit.

In regard to the €1.286 billion in URDF funding, I agree it has the potential to be a game-changer. The north inner-city in Dublin Central was fortunate, and it was deserving, to get approximately €120 million of the funding announced under it for important projects, such as the fruit and vegetable market in Dublin 7, the national monument on Moore Street, the Moore Street market, Parnell Square, the city library, Mountjoy Square and the Five Lamps.

It is a fantastic way for the State to be investing. I would argue that it is long overdue and it is certainly more than a decade overdue.

I cannot let the witnesses out of here today without saying that there is huge frustration and disappointment that we are a year on from the announcement and I see very little evidence on the ground of the city council actually using those funds. I will use the fruit and vegetable market as an example. Not only is that a spectacular and purpose-built market building. If we were to try to set out today to build such infrastructure, the craftsmanship would be very hard to replicate. It is in great condition but we are not seeing any evidence of development. Millions of euro have been dedicated and given to Dublin City Council to reopen that market. I have a list as long as my arm of people who would go in there and reanimate it. This list includes everything from fresh food producers to cooked food producers and artists. How can the Department trigger the local authority to use those funds? How can the Department find out where is the bottleneck with the local authority?

It is a similar situation with residential properties in the north inner city. We have talked about the Town Centre First policy, and Housing For All has clearly called out the need for us to use and reuse existing building infrastructure. There is no more sustainable way to increase our housing stock than to use the housing stock that is already built. This is not happening. Dublin City Council has had a vacancy officer since 2017. The council, however, had a pitiful track record in this regard when council officials came in to speak with the committee about tackling dereliction and vacancy in the city. What can the Department do with the local authority to support them to actually open up those properties? The city is coming down with people looking for affordable homes. The city is coming down with people who are just looking for homes. Yet, we have endless vacancy and dereliction in the city. What can the Department do to support the local authority? The Department is clearly providing the funds but something more is needed.

Ms Maria Graham:

There are a couple of issues. The important aspect, in addition to giving the investment and the opportunity for investment, is about driving the programme. From the Department's perspective, all of these projects were given the funding and the local authority is in the driving seat as the sponsor. We have put in arrangements within the Department and we will be meeting local authorities regularly. I will ask Ms Clifford to come in on that in a moment. We have expanded our planning and advisory team with Mr. Logan in order that we will have advisers who would be dealing with all the different areas of the country. Part of this is to give that support and monitoring, from the Department's point of view, to see that drive.

It must be acknowledged also that there has been a Covid effect. While some housing projects, for example social housing projects, were able to continue if they were at a certain stage during construction shutdowns, the nature of the urban regeneration and development fund projects was that they were shut down if they were at construction stage. This has had a knock-on effect. We are moving very much into the mobilisation phase as well.

From a broader perspective and the actions in Housing For All around vacancy nationwide, the vacant homes officers are becoming full-time. The Senator referred to Dublin being one of the areas that has had full-time vacant homes officers. Again, from the supporting and driving perspective, the Department is establishing its own principal officer-led vacant unit, to bring together many of the aspects the committee has spoken about including the investment, regulation and funding, to have a co-ordinated approach. The Housing Agency is looking at supporting local authorities with advice through the agency's procurement unit, and through its compulsory purchase system expertise.

The final piece we will be working on from a national planning framework perspective is city delivery boards, under Project Ireland 2040. At present, we have a national Project Ireland 2040 delivery board that has all of the Secretaries General of the funding Departments, who are now external members. There will be city development boards for Dublin and for the other cities that will bring the national board to the city level and will really focus on ensuring there is integration of the spatial plans and the investment. Some of these are very big projects that can be dependent on a lot of big public investment in transport and water, as well as the mobilisation of the projects.

The other leg is that we are working with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, around resourcing of local authorities. Mr. O'Brien has touched on some of the resourcing and the town regeneration offices funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development. There is a wider resourcing issue of planning and town regeneration. We want to get to the heart of that to see what the numbers are and what the skills are, and how we can make sure that local authorities are set up for the future. There is a commitment in Housing For All to make sure that the planning resource is funded. There are a couple of elements there. Perhaps Ms Clifford will talk a little bit about how we engage with Dublin City Council.

Ms Lisa Clifford:

As Ms Graham has said, following the announcements and the issuing of the initial approval letters with the local authorities last year, Mr. Logan and I and our teams have just come out of a long series of meetings with every local authority around their urban regeneration and development fund projects to ascertain where the projects are and where difficulties are arising.

With regard to the Dublin north inner city project, it is a hugely complex project and especially because it is made up of 15 different parts, all of which are moving at different speeds. We are working with Dublin City Council to see how best we can move forward the parts of the project that can move more quickly. The pieces such as the library, which the Senator referred to and is a longer-term project, are a bit more complex and will take that little bit longer to get through the various stages of the public spending code. The exercise we carried out with all of the local authorities was to critically look at the different elements of the projects to see where we can move things forward more quickly. This is certainly something we will be following up with Dublin City Council, in the context of its projects. From the Department's perspective, the Dublin north inner city project is one of our largest and we have a particular interest in making sure that these projects get on the right track, particularly the larger and more complex projects. Following on from our previous meetings, we will be following up with Dublin City Council to see what progress it has made on that.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. Why have the recommendations of Alison Harvey of the Heritage Council, in its collaboration on vacancy data with the Housing Agency, Vacanthomes.ie and Space Engagers, not been taken on board given that it was a key objective in the last housing policy?

Ms Maria Graham:

There are a couple of aspects to be considered on vacancy data. We gave a paper previously to the committee around the range of elements. I will ask Mr. Logan to come in on this in a moment.

We are looking at the vacancy data that are available. Some of them are dynamic, and often they are incomplete. Some additional data will be gathered through the census this year. We are looking at some of the geospatial data that are available. We did some pilot studies ourselves as part of the housing strategy in Rebuilding Ireland. We are also working with Department of Finance on the data it is collecting from the local property tax, which should be available shortly.

Part of the issue about vacancy is there is a need for a national perspective and a real on-the-ground perspective. This is part and parcel of the role that we would see the full-time vacant homes officers doing. Perhaps Mr. Logan will add to that.

Mr. Stewart Logan:

The Deputy also specifically mentioned the town centre health check programme promoted by the Heritage Council. It is very much intended as an action in this document that this would be built upon and brought into a national scheme as part of the national office in order that the type of work that is being done on a limited but very good quality basis by the Heritage Council would be accessed by more towns in a fuller way. They have limited resources there but what is done in the town centre health check format would be brought into a national approach that every town could take.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long will that take? How long until we have proper and accurate data about vacancies and dereliction and about how long a property has been derelict? Will we have the data this time next year?

Mr. Stewart Logan:

As Ms Graham alluded to, we have made specific requests to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, in relation to the 2016 data, for example, where there were understood discrepancies or where the level of information for one of the enumerators indicates that a property is vacant as to what that actually means, whether it is a holiday home or whether it is-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for cutting Mr. Logan short but the issue is that the Derelict Sites Act came into force in 1990. It is now 2022. After 32 years, we have no accurate data on dereliction. Is that what we are being told today?

Mr. Stewart Logan:

As Ms Graham alluded to, we submitted a paper to the committee in January in relation to the census data, the work that was done by GeoDirectory, the work that is done by the-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was in Cork City Council, and for years I was looking for accurate data in relation to Cork City Council. Yesterday, Deputy Ó Broin was in Cork with me and Deputy Ó Laoghaire. We walked around with the Anois group, representatives of which, Dr. Frank O'Connor and Ms Jude Sherry, gave a presentation to this committee on dereliction. I walked around Cork city centre and the surrounding streets yesterday and noted the amount of dereliction that is in Cork. We have no accurate data in Cork City Council on derelict sites. There are fewer than 100 derelict sites listed. I saw 100 such sites yesterday on my own. That was only on North Main Street and the northside. There are no accurate dereliction figures and no accurate vacancy figures for the second city in the State. I am not blaming the witnesses but my point is that I represent people and I believe that things are so bad in my city at the moment that the housing crisis in Cork is worse than Dublin. People are looking at properties every day of the week that should be housing. Families should be in there and nothing is happening.

I have another question. The last time representatives of the Department were in here, I asked for an update on derelict homes officers and vacant homes officers. I was told that a special section was going to be set up in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to tackle dereliction and vacancy. Has that section been set up? How many staff are in there? Where are we with it?

Ms Maria Graham:

Perhaps I will answer that question. Just to clarify, our funding streams will not be restricted by a lack of data. For the things like the Croí Cónaithe towns fund, we will be depending on local authorities coming to us with proposals and saying that they are vacant. Similarly, the URDF is based on the local authority declaration of vacancy. I should say that.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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On that point, €405 million in funding was allocated for regeneration for Cork city, of which €350 million was for the docklands area. We have been waiting 30 years for the docklands regeneration. It is welcome money and it is very much needed. Not a single penny in funding was granted for the northside of Cork city, which has the worst dereliction. In the Department's opening statement, "parts of cities with high levels of dereliction" were mentioned. In the part of the city that I represent on the northside of Cork, no funding was awarded in the URDF out of €405 million. Ms Graham mentioned applications coming in. In the northside of Cork city, we have no funding to tackle dereliction.

Ms Maria Graham:

Under the URDF, we depend on the proposals that come from local authorities. That is why we have talked about working about local authorities to see where there are gaps. There are some areas where proposals were not successful because they did not meet the criteria and other areas. Hopefully, projects like that will come forward. In terms of the vacant homes unit, at the moment, there are staff who are working on other issues as well. There is a principal officer. Recruitment is about to commence for the principal officer. Recruitment has just concluded for two assistant principal officers. There will be support staff for that unit. At present, it is taking a good deal of my own time and personal focus. The principal officer who appeared before the committee previously is dealing with social inclusion and vacancy. The idea is that he will pass responsibility to a full-time officer in the coming weeks.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The last time we were, here I was assured that that section was being set up. I know that people have to be hired and there is a process to go through. When will that section be set up, and how many staff will be in it?

Ms Maria Graham:

The interviews, which are based on internal mobility within the Civil Service, have been concluded. People are being made offers. It will probably be within four to five weeks, which is the usual timeframe for that. There are people working on this issue at present. It is just that they have other roles.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine, but the issue is so big. It is going to take us years to build houses. We can turn derelict or vacant houses around in months. This is not going to solve the housing crisis or make a huge difference. My last question is-----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Sorry, Deputy, you are out of time. I will let you back in later.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps Ms Graham can respond to me later.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I think you might have the second Sinn Féin slot because Deputy Ó Broin is not present.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There were three full-time vacant home officers in 31 local authorities. She might speak to that.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will move on. Deputy Gould, you had plenty of time. We have to leave time for everybody. We only have two hours because of the delay in starting. I call on Deputy Higgins.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank our witnesses for their detailed and useful opening statements and for these conversations, from which we always gain so much. In terms of the URDF, I welcome the investment in my own area. Tandy's Lane Park opened in the summer and it is a direct result of the URDF funding stream. Airlie Park in Adamstown is under construction at the moment. We are all eagerly awaiting it being opened, hopefully later this year. As referenced in the opening statements, Clonburris has also received quite a significant injection of funding. While it is welcome, it is absolutely and utterly needed. It is a basic requirement because these are massive growing areas. They are very large-scale strategic development zones. As we are talking about an influx of thousands of families into the area, we need the services and the amenities to come on stream and be delivered hand in hand with housing. I am really glad that the URDF is there to help make that happen.

I am particularly interested in Ms Graham's point about the Project Ireland 2040 delivery board. It is great to hear of the hiring of staff, and indeed support staff, that is happening in the area. Obviously, it is going to take teams of people to help tackle the issues that my colleague referred to in terms of dereliction and vacancy. Vacancy is just one of the key focuses that we have had in Fine Gael. Senator Cummins, who sends his apologies today, and I launched a discussion document on dereliction and vacancy and urban and rural renewal. At this stage, we have had three different successful provincial meetings to reach out to stakeholders, including local authorities, Tidy Towns groups, chambers of commerce groups, and many people who have a vested interest in ensuring that we are transforming derelict and vacant properties into used spaces and family homes. There have been three really welcome updates in the last few weeks, including that on the vacant homes officer and the announcement of the increase of funding to €60,000. The idea that these are all going to be full-time positions, or at least full-time equivalent positions, in each local authority in the country shows the commitment and the focus that there is going to be in every local authority up and down the country in this regard. In respect of the announcement of the new grant of €30,000 for people who want to purchase a vacant or derelict building and to transform it, I note the Minister has announced his commitment to making sure that this happens. In terms of the ministerial regulations, we have also seen in the past few weeks the change of use rules that will now make it so much easier to have above-pub dwellings, as it were. People no longer have to go through a lengthy and complex planning procedure. Homes can be delivered above pubs without a change of use being required. That is something that is really welcome, particularly in rural Ireland, where, unfortunately, we have seen pubs go to dereliction.

We need to see more progress being made in targets. Local authorities still do not have targets, at this stage, for the repair and lease or buy and renew schemes. These are schemes that we know are proven to work in terms of taking derelict and vacant properties and transforming them into houses. That is what we want to do. We want to unlock that potential.

From a living cities perspective, one of the initiatives that we spoke about previously was perhaps extending that to new areas that might need rejuvenation. I would be particularly keen to hear Mr. O'Brien's views on that. Overall, there is a sense that we need to reform and modernise the Derelict Sites Act. Mr. O'Brien is probably the most expert witness in that area. Perhaps he could comment on the extension of the living cities initiative and the reform of it. I ask Ms Graham to talk me through the Project Ireland 2040 delivery board, what it looks like, how it is going to be monitored, how progress is going to be measured and how it is going to be reported out. That would be fantastic.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

I thank Deputy Higgins. In relation to the Living City initiative, it was something that featured in our discussions on the Town Centre First policy. There was quite a proportion of people who had considerable experience of it.

In terms of the extension of it, I assume we are talking about the same thing. This is the tax incentives. The extension is a matter for the Department of Finance. I understood that it was extended to the end of the year but I am not aware of any further extensions being considered by that Department at present.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Brien believe, from his perspective, in extending but also expanding it to include areas that need further rejuvenation? Would that be a good idea? Would that be something he would be willing to continue to work with the committee on to make that case to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

We are always happy to look at new ideas in terms of the shared goals of revitalising towns and villages. It is in tandem with much of the investment that we are putting in at present through those existing schemes. We are certainly willing to consider that.

From my point of view, there are some things coming on track in relation to that as well. There is support under the new Croí Cónaithe supports from Ms Graham's Department. There is a full suite of investments and possible approaches there. The key is to make sure we are as co-ordinated and coherent as possible between those various different streams of funding and support and to make sure they are all pushing in the same direction.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I ask Ms Graham to be brief.

Ms Maria Graham:

I will speak fast. In terms of Project Ireland 2040, there is a delivery board at national level, which is monitoring the overall national development plan and looking at issues such as the revamping that there has been of the public spending code, a project tracker, any barriers that might be faced, and the national planning framework and how investment is aligning with what the direction should be. I suppose the next phase that we believe is important is to bring that down to the city level. For example, we would have had sector presentations on education, transport, housing and water services. It is really to bring that to the city level, so that if there are particular blockages, they can be looked at in the wider metropolitan area and not only in one authority. That is the concept that we are developing.

We are reviewing the derelict sites - it is within my area - to see if there are any kind of improvements that we can make to the working of the legislation as it is now.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Graham. If I have time in the next round, I might learn a little more about that.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Higgins. I will take the next slot, which is the Green Party slot. The Urban Regeneration and Development Fund, URDF, is a €2 billion fund. There is €1.6 billion, if I am reading this correctly, between 2019 and 2022 and it is extended out to 2030. Is the fund to be increased to extend it out to 2030?

Ms Maria Graham:

There is an indication that it will be. The capital ceilings for Departments have not been stretched out to the whole area but it is written into the national development plan, NDP, that there will be additional investment. I would assume that would be at the level of which we are at when we get to 2026-2027 and that there will be funding beyond the €2 billion.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is good to hear because I have seen, as I am sure many have, at local authority level the benefits these public space and public realm investments that you see across many towns and villages can bring. It acts as a stimulus as well, if the local authority invests in the local town or creates this nice place.

I was glad to hear Ms Graham mention place making in her opening statement. I was at a presentation by IDA Ireland at the Irish planning conference many years ago at which it was said that this principle of place making is so important for people who want to invest, not only local investment but for foreign direct investment as well. Companies that want to invest in Ireland - it does not matter if you have the best broadband and the best industrial estate - want nice places for the families that go with those jobs. Place making is incredibly important and this can help towards it.

Where the local authority invests in it, and it might create that stimulus for a private building owner who wants to develop over-the-shop or a derelict site, it is my understanding that the regulations around this are quite cumbersome. I will direct this question to Mr. Logan as it is probably planning related. We have got the planning exemption for certain developments but the process for the fire safety certificate, the accessibility certificate and the section 57 certificate for the certification at the end of it seems to involve quite an onerous number of hoops somebody has to jump through. What has being suggested to me is that where it is a small development of maybe two or three apartments above the shop, the expense that goes with that process is disproportionate to the overall conversion or refurbishment project. Do we need to look at streamlining certain regulation processes around development in order to maximise the local authority's investment in that town as well?

Mr. Stewart Logan:

It is important to say there is a review under way of Part B under the fire regulations by colleagues in the Department. That will specifically look at the smaller type of development the Chairman referred to in terms of whether that is a significant barrier and whether there are changes that can be made for that code. That is under way currently.

The exemptions the Chairman referred to have been quite successful. From 2018, we have had 300 or 400 of these properties that have moved. That is very much market based and a response to what might be considered a relaxation of or, more correctly, flexibility in the planning regulations, specifically, as the Chairman said, for those typical properties that are above shop on the main street where there are vacancies that have not moved into residential. They have been quite successful.

There possibly is a piece around the co-ordination within the local authority, which holds much of the statutory code piece in that regard. There may be a co-ordination piece there that could perhaps achieve more results around those properties and bring them into residential use. It is a co-ordination piece that is responsive to where there are those properties that perhaps individuals or landowners are interested in developing and I suppose the local authority sector perhaps allocating more resources, more particularly, to assisting those in bring those into a residential use.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am interested to hear that. If there is a review of regulations or that process, I am sure it will come to the committee at some point. We would be interested in engaging in that. My understanding is - this is from experts working in the field and the large technical guidance document comprising 12 or 13 chapters that is out there - it is quite directed towards new builds or not quite at where you have got to refurbish three-storey buildings. That is helpful to know.

On the dereliction, would a dereliction tax work better than a dereliction levy? There was €5 million levied on derelict sites and derelict buildings owners in 2020 by local authorities but they collected less than €400,000 - a less than 10% collection rate. Might a dereliction tax, with that tax coming back to the local authorities to feed back into this urban and rural regeneration that we are trying to do, be a sensible move?

Ms Maria Graham:

There can be definitional issues between vacancy and dereliction. There is a spectrum. In the context of the gathering of information for the local property tax, LPT, one of the issues that is being looked at is a tax on vacant properties. Obviously, the scope and what that would include would be important.

From the data we have got from local authorities, many issues around dereliction are to do with ownership and the capacity to activate is quite difficult. You need a number of tools in your armoury to deal with that. Many of the local authorities have been quite successful in issuing compulsorily purchase orders, CPOs, on the property because then one can more readily assure it comes into active, and particularly residential, use. The Housing Agency is developing guidance on issuing CPOs on property. That is a particular area that we are looking at, not only for social housing needs and for affordable housing needs, but also for market-based housing.

Taxation plays a role. Obviously, we are looking at that. We will have the residential zoned land tax. That is looking at the sites.

The Minister for Finance is examining the property tax and consideration is being given to what the extent of that would be. Beyond penalisation of holding the property, we also need incentives to activate the property. That is probably where our focus is at the moment. The more derelict a property is, the more risky it is to bring it back in. The question is whether there is a role for local authorities or the Housing Agency to revamp the project and then put it to the market.

One of the other sources of funding that has not yet come on stream but is being worked on is the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, which the regional assemblies are looking at. In particular, they are looking at gaps where there may not be other funding streams. Hopefully, that will be finalised in the second quarter of this year. They are looking at the issues of vacancy and dereliction. Mr. Logan will have had a lot of conversations with them. We are trying to make sure there is a suite of actions.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Just a note of information with reference to a question Deputy Gould raised, I received a recent notification from the Minister that he has increased the allocation from €50,000 to €60,000 for each local authority for vacant homes officers. There are part-time vacant homes officers but this is to bring them all up to full time. I just got that information two or three days ago in a reply to a parliamentary question.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements and acknowledge the enormous work that has been done. Project Ireland 2040 sets ambitious targets and goals for making Ireland a better country for all. I like that "for all". We tended not to have the same distribution across the country. I also see echoing through the statements today local and regional ambition and, ultimately, national impact. It is going to take time but I acknowledge it and can see the work. I have been on this committee previously and I know we have repeated many issues. Everything is slow. As Ms Graham rightly said, we have had Covid and other issues.

The Waterford North Quays project is amazing and highly ambitious. It has had some setbacks and bad publicity in respect of parts of it not going ahead. I am aware €81 million was set out in ERDF funding for that phase of the projects. The officials might let the committee know more about that, if not today then at some point.

The other recurring issue is resources. Somebody just mentioned compulsory purchase orders. The local authorities will tell us that they have no funding for compulsory purchase or for the protracted litigation that goes into all of these issues. The officials might address that. Ms Graham talked about resources into the future but we need to hear about resources now. We need to see tracking, timelines and delivery.

One of the biggest issues of concern is that of the local authorities themselves. I know these are areas Ms Graham covers; I apologise that I am directing all my questions at her. The local authority declaration of vacant properties is an extraordinary document. I have had opportunity to look at one and have seen properties omitted from it. It has been raised with me by councillors that certain properties are not included. How verifiable and accurate is that list? Where I live in Dún Laoghaire, the local authority is presiding over dereliction in many parts. There are substantial sites with major town centre zoning that have been derelict for up to 20 years. It is extraordinary. I took the time early this morning to walk around these properties again to double-check if there had been a miracle since I was there last week but nothing has changed. They put up their hands and say the chief executive wants this and that and we might have social housing. It is crazy stuff. Some of these are protected structures so that is a challenge. They do not all have to remain protected structures, however. There is a process of delisting. I would not encourage this but in some cases protected structure status may not be warranted. That is not something I like to talk about too often as I am very committed to protected structures and our built heritage.

I do not know if any of the officials read an article in the Irish Examinerby Darragh Bermingham recently. Councillor Annemarie Ryan Shiner in County Tipperary raised the article. She acknowledged the great work the Heritage Council has done on the collaborative town centre health check. When is that going to be rolled out across every local authority? It works; people are speaking about it and it appears to be very successful. I would like the officials to talk about that.

We are talking about vacancies and dereliction today. Some of the harbour port companies are presiding over massive dereliction of viable and nice property in major areas where people would want to live and do business. We have the Office of Public Works. There are two Garda stations in close proximity to me, in Dalkey and Kill of the Grange, that have been empty for nine and ten years. We know there needs to be co-ordination on issues. We need to look at the Defence Forces, dare I say it. There are very substantial lands out in Thornton Hall. What are we going to do with them? Who is going to go out there? Can we do property swaps? We have to be realistic and look at that.

I have asked enough questions. There are some issues. I am concerned with the power the Department is investing in local authority officials, not in the councillors but in the officials. They have had this for a long time. I ask the officials to look specifically at the properties that are under the ownership of local authorities and to come back to us in three months with a detailed report. We need to ask these city and county managers what is going on here. It is very important that the vacant housing officers should be full time. It should not be a matter of chief executives moving people around buildings and calling them a bit of this and a bit of that. We want full-time vacant housing officers and town centre offices. I thank the witnesses for coming in. There are really important initiatives happening here and I commend all those involved.

Ms Maria Graham:

I will try to get through as many of the Senator's questions as I can. On the Waterford project, it is a really interesting project that includes moving the train station and a lot of public transport and an infrastructure piece. The Department is firmly committed to that project and to its funding and will work closely with Waterford officials to make sure it comes to fruition.

On the broad issue of resourcing, the idea with Town Centre First is that there will be a staffed national office within the Local Government Management Agency. We are in the final stages between the two Departments. We have funding to staff that office and they will also have some secondments from each Department. They will drive the town centre programme and the network of town regeneration officers. From a data and monitoring perspective, that will address the kind of issues the Senator was talking about, both the supports and the monitoring piece.

The Housing Finance Agency will be giving bridging finance for the compulsory purchase programme so that is an important source of funding. We are trying to de-risk it as much as possible so that if local authorities go down this route they will not be left with properties on their hands. Some of those concerns are taken away upfront.

I do think there is a boots on the ground piece. I appreciate that the Senator has gone around Dún Laoghaire. A lot of it is around looking at the properties. That is why the town regeneration officers and vacant home officers are really important in seeing what scope is there. The derelict site provision gives local authorities a lot of powers but there is inconsistency in terms of the approach. Some authorities have been very successful in using the derelict site and compulsory purchase powers under the Act to gain properties and I think that is really increasing. As that body of knowledge is improved and we really want to give momentum to that----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am sorry but I have to interrupt. We can come back to the Senator's questions in the second round. I call Deputy Cian O'Callaghan.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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We often think about established areas when it comes to vacancy but it is also very much an issue in newer developments and communities. I walked around Clongriffin in my constituency recently. The town centre there was built ten or 15 years ago and more than 50% of the retail units on the ground floor are still vacant. Has any examination been done at a national level as to whether rates are being applied to ground floor retail units in these areas? Dublin City Council has always applied certain rates on vacant units as a disincentive and other local authorities can do that as well. Is there an issue with newer units, albeit ones that are ten or 15 years old, not being rated at all? They may be escaping those vacant premises rates on the basis that they have not been fully completed or finished out. Is that how they escape the rates? Has that been looked at or examined at all?

Ms Maria Graham:

As I mentioned earlier, residential zoned land is taxed on the one hand and we are now looking at taxation on the vacant property side. We are particularly conscious that things should not fall between two stools and that there should not be these kinds of gaps for either rateable properties or taxable properties. This is on the list of issues we are looking at in that context. Those kinds of properties are referenced more broadly in Housing for All. That is part of the planning exemption for change of use. If it is very clear that there will not be a commercial use for properties developed in that way, they can be turned to residential use. From a Town Centre First perspective, if there is a need for services for the area, it is about how that is stimulated in the vision for the town.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I am particularly concerned about properties that I think should be rated. There are disincentives for vacancy at the moment but I am concerned that a number of properties are escaping them on the basis that the owner is claiming they are not fully finished, even though the planning permission to finish them would be expired by now. There may be a cohort missing there.

On the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, some great projects were funded in the last round but there was strong criticism that applications from some areas with high levels of social deprivation, such as Cherry Orchard, Darndale and the newer communities adjoining Darndale around Northern Cross, were not successful. Dublin City Council said applications for brownfield sites were being prioritised and I can understand that. Outside Dublin city, non-brownfield site applications for funding were successful. When is another round of funding for the URDF for cities likely to happen? Will those areas with higher levels of social deprivation in Dublin city outside the canals be eligible for funding? Is there any engagement with Dublin City Council on that to make sure these do not miss out or would not be ineligible?

Ms Maria Graham:

Some €1.6 billion has been approved to date from the last round of funding. It is important for us to get a geographical spread and recognise the size of different cities. That is reflected in what we have done. As the projects have developed, it has become clear that there is a need to separate towns and cities. Due to the Town Centre First policy, towns will be addressed the first and the cities will follow on from that. The focus for this year is on getting the projects that are already approved under way. Ms Clifford has been involved in the project board so she might want to say something on this.

Ms Lisa Clifford:

On the projects in other areas of Dublin city, we saw this issue across the board when assessing the projects last year. We were massively oversubscribed for the amount of money we had and we had to make decisions on the focus of the projects in the second call for applications. Our initial focus was on moving into the urban core and then moving out. Where we had to make decisions in different local authority areas about which projects to fund as part of that call, we applied that approach universally. We targeted the core first, so projects in the core would have been successful, with a view to moving out as further calls are announced. As Ms Graham said, our next focus will be on town centres but we recognise that there is a lot of work still to be done in the cities. There will be a call focusing on the cities. Given the scale of the projects that were approved as part of the second call, we need to get those up and running first. We need to focus the metropolitan local authorities on getting those projects activated, moving and into construction. We can then change our focus to look where we need to go next. As Ms Graham mentioned earlier, one of the things we want to do is work more collaboratively with the local authorities in future calls to target areas where applications have not come forward yet or have not been funded yet but where we know we need to invest.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for those answers. They are very helpful. I reiterate that for areas of social deprivation, especially where they adjoin newer communities, proposals to integrate them could very valuable. I am just putting that in the mix as something to be considered for the future.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will jump in here. If a local authority does not move sufficiently fast on a scheme that has been awarded funding, can the Department take that back and give it to someone who will use it? Have the witnesses ever needed to tell local authorities they are not moving fast enough?

Ms Maria Graham:

We included a piece stating we have the option to decommit funding. Obviously, projects have been impacted by Covid and we have to allow for that. This will be important as we move forward because we would not want an authority to be reserving funding when there are other projects, such as the ones Deputy O'Callaghan mentioned, that could be ready to go. Those are the harder decisions that might have to be made down the line. That is why it is important that projects that are approved get under way.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am just looking at the members present online. Deputy Higgins is going to take the second Fine Gael slot.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their responses to my earlier contribution. I ask Ms Graham to outline the reforms she referred to earlier with regard to the Derelict Sites Act, which needs to be modernised and reformed. It sounds like she is doing a body of work in investigating what changes could be made to make it a more useful tool, which could become the catalyst for some change in this area. I would welcome her views on that.

Ms Maria Graham:

Many of the things we are hearing from the committee would be reflected in many of the discussions around derelict sites. We are collating the views of local authorities on changes that could be made to the legislation or operationally that would improve the operation of the Act. That is something we are looking at. We are very willing to take action if ideas come forward for changing the legislation in some way to make it more workable. An important dimension is the compulsory purchase piece, which the Law Reform Commission is looking at in depth. That will also come up in the context of the planning review because these are complex CPO arrangements. Many local authorities, such as those in Waterford and Limerick, and Louth to some extent, have been very successful in their use of CPO powers, particularly for social housing.

Some of it is 19th-century legislation so that is an area that needs to better reflect a modern legislative code. That is one of the aspects with which we will not be able to deal within a review.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Is there any timeframe? What is the plan in terms of how quickly any changes could be made either to an existing Act or through the introduction of a new Act?

Ms Maria Graham:

Our legislative agenda covers the planning review. That is the major piece of work for this year. There are a couple of other items on the planning agenda. If there are minor changes, we could be able to bring these forward - certainly in the latter half of this year - or if there are some tweaks. Some of it may be operational. Some of that involves the supports that can be given. Some local authorities have been using it very effectively so that is part of the Town Centre First strategy and addressing vacant properties and the Housing Agency giving that support so that the lessons from one local authority can be applied in others. They are both pieces of it.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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If witnesses from the Department of Rural and Community Development wish to come in any of these questions, could they raise a hand? When we have these hybrid meetings, we tend to focus on who is in the room and sometimes do not pay attention to who is online. Has Deputy Higgins finished her line of questioning?

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I thank the witnesses because that is a key part of this when it comes to tackling vacancy and dereliction. Making sure we have the legislative tools we need to take action and to do it as quickly as possible is key. I really welcome all the progress they are making on this and the fact that they are doing so much work analysing what research and development exists and how it could be changed or how changes could be incorporated into new bodies of new legislation to really make that happen. This committee talks all the time about the lack of data on vacancy rates across the country. Some people rely on the CSO while others rely on GeoDirectory. There is so much uncertainty in this field but what we do know is that the tools, techniques and legislation we do have are under-utilised. If we can do a body of work around reliable data, as has been discussed many times in this committee, and combine it with the kind of work the witnesses are doing, we make genuine change in this area. I thank the witnesses for all that work.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I think I can speak on behalf of the committee and say we would be committed to working with the witnesses on that because this series of four meetings relating to has generated huge interest. I look forward to producing a report at the end of it.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the speakers. As the Chairman rightly said, it has been hugely informative and we have had a number of very engaging sessions. In particular, I pay tribute to the officials from the Department. It is very clear that they have a great grasp of this area. A huge sense of enthusiasm for and information about the opportunities afforded by these funding streams are reflected in their presentation. Today has taken on an additional dimension in that we have launched our Town Centre First policy, which will very much inform future policy, particularly relating to the URDF. I am interested in changes to the scoring criteria for that scheme where it will be very much led by the local Town Centre First policy as opposed to the traditional competitive call. How confident are the witnesses that this will bring to the top the quality of projects we want and need to see? Are they reassured that this will happen?

In respect of the Town Centre First policy, vacancies will remain a significant challenge in provincial Ireland. Regarding banks that continue to hold property in provincial towns, many of these are what banks refer to as low-hanging fruit. They do not feel there is a sufficient need for them to dispose of those properties at this stage and they are waiting for the value of those properties to appreciate before they sell them. Have the witnesses engaged with banks and got some sense of how much property is held by banks as opposed to members of the public? How engaged are the main banks in terms of helping us to drive our Town Centre First policy?

My final question is for Ms Clifford. I know she has done a piece of work on projects that have funding. Could she crystallise the issues in cases where they are struggling to get projects up and running? I anticipate that one of them will be the change in building costs and an inability to get contractors. Will the Department give consideration to these issues? Will balloon payments need to be introduced for many of these projects that are at an advanced stage or ready to break ground but where there is real concern at local authority level that they do not have sufficient funding in place? I am conscious that I have thrown plenty at the witnesses helter-skelter but I am sure they have picked out the salient points.

Ms Maria Graham:

Mr. O'Brien might be able to talk about it from the perspective of the rural fund but certainly from the urban fund perspective, we have been oversubscribed and have not had difficulty in finding good projects. We are conscious that some projects were submitted that did not meet the criteria for the urban fund and we want to work with them to define them for the future. The advantage of having the Town Centre First policy and the plan is that there is that engagement with the community around what the vision for the town is. The next generation of projects should come from that.

The other issue I might touch on relates to banks. The Housing Agency has had a housing acquisition fund where it has been dealing with banks in terms of properties as part of that and has done a lot of work in recent years. We are now looking at that acquisition fund and where it goes in the future. I know the Housing Agency is also engaging with a number of institutions that may have their own properties in areas that might be suitable. Senator Boyhan mentioned former Garda stations. There is a range of buildings that might be put to use and there might be an advantage in the Housing Agency centralising and working with local authorities in that area. I will pass over to Ms Clifford to talk about problems.

Ms Lisa Clifford:

As I mentioned earlier, we have just come out of a series of meetings with local authorities looking at all of their URDF projects and getting a sense of where they are. The overriding message is that there are issues around costs in particular such as construction price inflation and we are seeing this reflected in the budget costs for the projects. The message I have given to local authorities is that we want them to do due diligence on costs because we do not want over-inflated costs that are not realistic but we also recognise that there are increases in costs and we will be able to meet some of those. We have asked local authorities to look critically at that and other sources of funding that might be appropriate and help to absorb some of those additional costs. To give an example, a project with quite a significant increase in costs was able to secure some funding from our colleagues in the NTA to fund the active travel parts of it because there is funding there for active travel. This reduced the impact on the URDF element so we were able to absorb the rest of the cost.

We have an iterative process with the local authorities on budget development as projects move through the various stages of the public spending code. We are not telling local authorities that only a certain amount of funding is available and that is it. There is obviously a process to be gone through as these projects develop to the construction stage, and we are working with local authorities on that, looking at how much the fund can absorb and what other sources of funding might be available for other elements of the project that might be more suitable to, say, active travel or whatever else. Our colleagues in the National Transport Authority, NTA, and the Department of Transport have been co-operative in terms of those types of projects. I hope that answers the question. It is an ongoing process.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

I will respond to the mention of engagement over banks and buildings such as Garda stations. That is relevant to the town and village renewal scheme. The Department of Rural and Community Development has had some engagement with banks about their buildings rather than anything else. We have been acting as a conduit between them and the local authorities to make sure everyone is aware of the opportunities that may exist. Some of those bank buildings and Garda stations tend to be strategically important buildings within towns, so we are working on that as a conduit of communication.

The committee may have heard that some relevant projects were included in the recent town and village renewal announcement. For example, an old bank in Urlingford is being turned into a remote working hub. A Garda station in Dromahair in Leitrim is being refurbished as a community facility. I agree absolutely there is potential and it is something about which we are talking to various people.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank our guests for their presentations. I started my earlier contribution by talking about local and regional ambition and national impact. I acknowledge the amazing input of our guests. They are, dare I say it, members of the permanent Civil Service. They know what is going on and we are fortunate to have people like them at the helm.

There is, however, a disconnect between our guests and the local authorities. There is always a tension with local authority members. Ms Graham spoke in her presentation about engagement in workshops. I am not sure enough of that is going on with the local authority members. We must remember there will always be a healthy tension between the executive of a local authority and its elected members. That healthy tension is a good thing and long may it last. Those members are watchdogs and are holding the executive to account. That is a part of their remit and function. However, they are somehow left out of the picture in terms of information. I wrote to every chief executive today to tell them this meeting was on. I know it was short notice but I asked them to confirm their knowledge and understanding of the situation and whether they had a vacant housing officer or town centre officer. It was pushing it a bit to ask if they had town centre officers because that role has only recently been announced. I had an interesting mix of reactions from some of those chief executives. Some of them said they need more clarification and I ask our guests to take that home with them. We have had a lot of external communication but perhaps we are not as good at internal communication within the local government sector and other State agencies.

I acknowledge the importance and excitement of all of this. It shows a realisation that people can be ambitious for their rural towns and expect to see something happening, with a national input from the Government.

I will return to the article in yesterday's edition of the Irish Examiner, which contained a reference to smart data and how we collect it. We can collect an awful lot of data in respect of utilities. That happens in Scotland and other parts of the UK. I am familiar with how it happens there. We can keep it simple. There are many agencies that feed utilities into properties, be they commercial or residential, and we need to do more work on that. I think the Chair will agree that the committee would be interested in hearing more about that area. We do not necessarily have the expertise but I would like to hear more about that area.

I would like to know that we have fully resourced our local authorities with vacant housing officers and town centre officers. Perhaps within the next few weeks the Departments could come back to the committee confirming those officers are in place. Sometimes we have to chase these things. It is surprising how difficult it is sometimes. I would like to see a list. I made a commitment to the chief executives that I would be back on their tails and looking for this information. I should not have to do that. We, as a committee, should get some reassurance that this is actually happening. I would like our guests to put that on their list of actions.

One of the first things I said earlier related to local authority declarations of vacant properties. Would it be possible for the committee to have a copy of the latest local authority declaration of vacant properties for all 31 local authorities? That would be helpful. We bring to this debate our own knowledge of local government. Most members of this committee have been elected to city or county councils. That would be interesting. The more information we share with one another, the more we can understand. We can then monitor progress. Our guests might address those few issues.

I will wrap up by saying this is very positive news. There will be issues and challenges from time to time, but the will and ambition are there and people are excited. The only possible setback may, in time, be resources, but we got a clear commitment today that resources will not be an issue. I again thank our guests for participating in this informative and interesting meeting.

Ms Maria Graham:

The Senator made an interesting point. I was talking to Mr. Logan before the meeting about the many times he has done the town centre first presentation. We have done it for chief executives and directors of housing and planning authorities. The point the Senator made about elected members is an interesting one and we will take that away because there is an important point at the moment around communication. Part of the enabling framework will have a network of town regeneration officers and a national oversight group, which will be very important in bringing all these elements together. It is important to acknowledge that a considerable variety of people were involved in the advisory group that developed the town centre first scheme, under the chairmanship of the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke.

The Senator made an important point about smart data because data are a part of that town regeneration element.

On the vacant home officers, we asked local authorities, in the circular we issued, to come back to us indicating what resources they would put in. They have a period of time within which to come back to us, but as we get to the end of the process, we are happy to share it.

The registers are with the 31 local authorities but we have a series of spreadsheets with, if you like, summary data and information around what is collected and the numbers involved. I am happy to share that with the committee. We have information on vacant sites and derelict sites that might be useful. We can see where the information goes from there.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is fantastic.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

I will follow up on the point raised about communication and I agree with Ms Graham that it is key. We have quite structured engagement with the local authority sector but the Senator's point about wider consultation and communications is well made. I note, as a point of interest, that the Department of Rural and Community Development is conducting an online event this week for a wide range of stakeholders at which we will present to as wide an audience as possible our schemes and initiatives and the opportunities that exist. We will present those schemes as a coherent whole to make sure all the relevant stakeholders are aware of the situation.

I will come back to a question the Senator asked during the previous round of questions which we did not have time to answer. The health check model will be a central part of the implementation of the town centre first strategy. It is about building on that Heritage Council model and to roll it out in towns because it is a useful model that has worked in other places.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Have our guests done any recent research into street designs and how we lay out our streets? Can that be contributory to dereliction and vacancy? A street that is car-dominated, has two lanes of traffic, parking on either side of the road and narrow footpaths is not a nice place to be as a pedestrian. It may not be a place where one would like to shop. The whole street then becomes worn down and a thoroughfare to somewhere else, another part of town. Are our guests aware of any research that has been done in that regard?

Mr. Stewart Logan:

I do not think any specific research on that has been undertaken recently but the whole weight of our investment, particularly in the public realm, through the urban renewal and development fund and the rural fund, tries to recognise the importance of the place-making piece. What happens in the public element of that is important because it does, as the Chairman mentioned earlier, create spin-offs and investment. We have seen that in a couple of locations.

In Clones, County Monaghan, in the public arm of that which is social housing, rather than having the sites which were perhaps more peripheral, we made a conscious effort to try to invest in a building or street which was perhaps one of these derelict and vacant properties we mentioned earlier. These have been brought back into two or three homes and there has been an uplift in that street, in the activity and in the visual presentation of it in terms of the buildings, as opposed to the footpaths, roads, the public lighting and so forth. It has also created a spin-off with private properties that were in a similar state, where investment has been made in the upkeep of those properties because the owners have seen the commitment on the public side of things. This will generate a response in the market, if one can call it that.

That is the strong tenet and, as I mentioned earlier, we are engaging with the local authorities on a very active basis, in particular with the Urban Regeneration and Development Fund, URDF, and it is a point to be made time and again. One of the learnings from the past two years, in particular, is the reclaiming of the street by the public, namely, the reclaiming of the car parking spaces outside pubs and restaurants having outdoor dining facilities. Both our Department and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media have found that has been very successful. To be honest, it has overcome some of the reticence, sometimes, of the local traders and of the local community around that as they can see it can be very positive in the economic sense and in the life and activity within the town itself. That is something we are building on in terms of trying to encourage businesses to do more of that because it chimes very much with the Towns Centre First policy and the night-time economy policy we are preparing. That activity is something that just cannot be left there; there has to be intervention also.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I realise we are crossing somewhat into the active travel area and the remit of the Department of Transport but there is definitely close co-operation between the local authorities on active transport and the URDF in linking those places up.

Mr. Stewart Logan:

I would also make the point that that is essentially one of the main lessons that came through from the advisory group, namely, that the Town Centre First policy has to co-ordinate these different funds that are available. The local authorities and the local town teams have to put their projects together to actively pursue the available funding across quite a number of points. The URDF and the Rural Regeneration and Development Fund, RRDF, are the flagship ones but there is a plethora of other funding sources available, and if you have your project in place, you are in a much better position to acquire that funding.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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This leads me on to another question. We hear a great deal about the big-ticket items such as the €81 million project mentioned by Mr. Logan in Waterford on the North Quays. If I am a private building owner, and the Department has done a very nice square, a public space, under the new URDF, and I want to develop my second or third floor into apartments and residential living space, or even the lower floor if it complies with the local area plan, I do not have any control over the footpath outside. Nobody wants to walk out the front door of their apartment with a child to a 2 ft. wide footpath. One would want some space there for planters and so forth. Such a person has no control over that but the local authority does. How does the interaction work on smaller jobs like that to improve the offering for pedestrians in terms of the safety aspect and making it more attractive to bring it back into residential use? These are for quite small projects.

Mr. Stewart Logan:

They are but again they are feeding into a local situation. It is very much a question of the prioritisation of those projects where one has perhaps, as the Chairman said, some activity in the private market around housing which should co-ordinate with what is available from the Department of Transport in respect of those. A normal stock in trade for local authorities' functions is improving footpaths, public lighting and road maintenance. Our piece is probably the larger one, which is the public realm piece, where there is a new plaza or a significant investment which may involve repurposing or reinvesting in the water infrastructure that is under that road. That can also be a co-ordination piece. There is good practice.

The point was made earlier around the data that is involved in this dereliction, which has to be considered. However, there is also a piece about best practice. That is certainly something we want the Town Centre First national co-ordination office to do and to be aware of.

As Ms Graham mentioned, there is good practice around the making of compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, in terms of the use of the Derelict Sites Act in Waterford and Limerick. That is such an exchange because there is not a form for it at the moment and we are contacted constantly by individuals within the local authorities who ask how this is being done elsewhere. I know it is being done elsewhere but what is the form? We want that to be built on and to provide that communication and best practice exchange between local authorities so they are able to build on good practice elsewhere and, certainly, to see more of it.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am conscious there is often criticism of local authorities but, from my experience, they are doing fantastic work out there, particularly in areas of planning and active transport. I give the example of local authorities which have a county architect, someone who is able to oversee these projects from above and see how all of these parts work together. That is one of the additional officers I would like to see added to every local authority along with a vacant homes officer. A county architect would be one of the most beneficial posts we could create which could pull all those different divisions together, that is, active transport and the ability to try to find building owners. The big disincentive is that we just do not know who owns the buildings or the derelict sites. It is too big a task to chase that down, so it just gets left and ignored. That exists throughout all of the local authorities. I am hoping the vacant homes officers would take this suggestion on board also.

Ms Maria Graham:

Part and parcel of looking in depth at the planning system and at town regeneration is that, in many respects, it is a multidisciplinary team in regard to asking what skills that are required. It may be a professional skill but it may also be around the personal enthusiasm and commitment to the job. These may be found in different professions in the different local authorities. It is about how they work in the particular local authority in terms of pulling those skills together. We have been less prescriptive about what that skill is but it is important that there is a range of skills available.

I agree with the Chairman that there are very good examples out there and that was why in the Town Centre First document, there is a great deal of examples because that is the kind of best practice we are talking about. To be honest, and Mr. O’Brien and I would agree, we had to code the number of examples going into the document. This involves building on what we have, which is 500 or so towns and multiples of villages. It is a big task.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am only halfway through the Town Centre First document and even less through Our Rural Future but I like what I have read so far. I will now move on to-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is it not bedtime reading, Chairman?

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will open up to the third round of questions. If anybody wishes to raise his or her hand to ask any further questions, he or she may do so. I call Senator Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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To tag along with what Ms Graham just said, she put her finger on a nail there, in that it is not necessarily about the skill sets but it is about the enthusiasm. I can think of someone in my own area with great ideas. Sometimes we are top-heavy in local government. Our chief executives are dominant characters by their very nature in how they have come up to that position, as most of them have come up through the ranks. Not very many of them have come from the private sector, from somewhere else or, indeed, from overseas. This is the way, unfortunately, that we do local government, so it is the same people. They start in a local authority in a rural area and move into the city.

One can have very many skilled people in local government, including architects, landscape architects, parks designers and public realm people and when one gets enthusiasm, it carries the day and brings support with it. One does not necessarily need all of the skills. Enthusiasm carries one along in the public realm.

It is interesting because I am a landscape contractor by profession and I know everybody wants to have a property on the south side. I can take people to streets in my own town of Dún Laoghaire where there is not a vacant shop facing south. Aspect and orientation is a factor in respect of the sun. There are so many little facets to a place. A street can become activated and animated. We have seen this through the Covid-19 period, where so many places which had nothing now had people outside selling bits of food, coffee and so forth and there was improved paving or temporary facilities. These places have taken on a life of their own and a number of people have said to me that there are places within five or ten minutes of their house that they never knew existed.

There would be outdoor space, which improves community and local interaction. There are so many knock-on effects.

Again, I wish everybody well. I know many of the people here today are deeply involved with all of this. It is a tribute and the witnesses should keep going. Politicians come and go but what we have in common is that we call live in communities and villages. What is really good about what we have spoken about today is the question of a local vision and ambition. A regional vision can feed into our national plans. For the first time in a long time - I was a councillor for over 20 years and I am here for a few years - I see a layering process and where we are going. That is really important and I thank the witnesses for that.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I have a couple of questions to finish off. I remember when the URDF and RRDF were announced and I seem to remember a climate resilience fund being announced at the same time of €500 million. Does anybody recall that at the time of the announcement?

Ms Maria Graham:

There were two other funds and both were from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We can approach it as well. The opening statement of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage speaks about the Town Centre First policy. The next call is for projects for towns and aligning town centres first, which is good. That is what we want to see. The criteria will also specifically identify tackling vacancy. Will Ms Graham give some detail on how the application criteria has changed to focus people on vacancy or dereliction?

Ms Maria Graham:

The criteria set out are largely as one might expect, relating to compact growth, brownfield and integrated urban development. I might ask Ms Clifford to come in on this. These are marked and it is specifically about giving a scoring where tackling of vacancy or dereliction forms part of the project. It is about highlighting that process and amplifying it within the projects. In very big projects there are areas of dereliction and reuse. We have also seen them in smaller projects where people are perhaps looking at derelict buildings in towns and backlands in towns. It is about making that very explicit as criteria on which people will be judged.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When Ms Graham talks about tackling vacancy, I am conscious that when we start really looking at the detail of vacancy and dereliction, there can be a vacant home, site or commercial building. Those would not be derelict but rather just vacant. In tackling vacancy, is Ms Graham speaking about vacant buildings that used to have a commercial use in our towns? Is that the aim?

Ms Maria Graham:

Yes. It is any level of vacancy or dereliction that could be brought into use. It could be brought into use for residential purposes or as part of the economic development of the town. We would be looking at a locality and the levels of dereliction and vacancy so I am being a bit prescriptive with criteria that we will work through with local authorities before finalising. In some cases, the vacant homes are population-dispersed. We are really looking at where there is a significant level of vacancy that may relate to the fact that the area of the town has become derelict or less attractive, if that makes sense.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. Does the same apply in the case of dereliction?

Ms Maria Graham:

Yes. I do not believe we would make a distinction in the URDF as to whether a property is vacant or derelict. It would form part of a wider project that would be trying to tackle an area. It could bring some derelict properties into some community or public building use or something of that nature. That is what we are talking about. It could be about reimagining an area where there is much dereliction for other purposes.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Ms Graham spoke about the emphasis on the core in the cities. Is it the same for our town and village renewal? Are we concentrating on the town centre or is that just something used in the cities?

Mr. Stewart Logan:

I can answer that because that is very much the essence of Town Centre First. It is about such concentration in a primary sense. It is not divorced from our planning system, as the Chairman is aware. We have issued development plan guidance specifically under section 20 of the Act. There may well be a case for work to go out from the centre to an area that needs expansion but that would not be at the cost of neglecting the core area of the two. Where services are available, it makes more sense in terms of our carbon footprint to concentrate on that area. Planning guidance is quite specific around that and it would be very much keyed in, as it is currently with the urban regeneration fund and will continue to be.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Deputy McAuliffe is substituting for Deputy Duffy and I can bring him in before going to Deputy O'Reilly.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The past hour or so has been incredibly useful. Adding all the various policy tools that have been outlined, including the URDF and Town Centre First and so on, I take my perspective from the towns and villages in my community. Many are what might be called urban villages. I am thinking of areas like Finglas and towns like Ballymun. They could be replicated in places like Raheny and new communities in Donaghmede and so on. The question is where those urban villages fit in the policy framework.

For example, with Town Centre First, do urban villages fall under its remit? Are they eligible to apply? Dublin City Council has not made applications under that scheme. The URDF, a large amount of very welcome money, has primarily gone to the inner city area and it is often used for large citywide projects. We must look to the future expansion of housing, such as that on the Oscar Traynor Road lands, with nearly 1,000 homes, and the Ballymun local area plan, which has nearly 2,000 homes. The master plan for private land on the Jamestown Road site would accommodate more than 1,000 homes as well. How do we retrofit existing communities with facilities that are needed for those new homes? Adding more homes into those communities that in many cases have already experienced a dearth of community facilities would only compound problems.

In particular I am thinking of the community at Santry, which has seen much private sector development, all on private land. It has two large council areas on either side and perhaps it has missed out on some service provision that may exist in areas where the city council may have more of a presence. Will the witnesses piece together a plan that I can beat up Dublin City Council with? I can say that tools are available to these towns and what the council should apply to.

I echo the point made by Senator Boyhan on the accountability for who is deciding what applications for URDF come before the Department. Those decisions are largely made by officials. My understanding is there has not been any serious democratic scrutiny of which applications come before the Department for the scheme, which is an issue. The Ballymun local area plan is a Dublin City Council project and it has been on its books since 2017. All the land is owned by Dublin City Council. Despite this, the council did not put forward the area for the URDF. There is something wrong in that respect when there is such an obvious need to tackle disadvantage and at the same time address the question of new and affordable housing and cost rental. I appreciate there is much to get through there.

Ms Maria Graham:

I will try to do so. I wrote down something in reply to Senator Boyhan and it would be remiss of me not to say that in all this we have seen huge co-operation from local authorities and chief executives in their engagement. That is important. The point made by the Deputy on the involvement of elected members is one we can take away and look at.

Urban villages are a really interesting concept. There was a book that wrote about Dublin being created of villages. The Town Centre First policy is primarily focused on towns that have their own integrity but it specifically provides that the principles can be applied in cities and to very small villages. Those are the concepts about community knowing what they want the future of their area to look like, the place-making piece. While much of Town Centre First will be focused on enabling the towns, including towns in north Dublin, the URDF covers areas with a population of over 10,000. Therefore, we will include the urban villages.

Earlier Lisa Clifford explained that because we were oversubscribed, we had to look at the core areas, but we will move out. I take on board the point the Deputy made about how prioritisation within an authority might be looked at in that context. We were anxious to get the first lot of projects up and running because that gives us a perspective on how much funding is left and as we go into the latter phases more funding will be available. Those are important points the Deputy has made.

The croí cónaithe towns will be focused on towns and the croí cónaithe cities will be focused on cities. The CPO powers go across the board. There are a range of sources. Some urban development funding will come in from the regional assemblies. Many of these are pathfinders and as they are rolled out, we are very open to identifying gaps in areas that need to be addressed.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We can look at the examples of applications for any of the villages. There are great schemes relating to empty buildings in the centre of rural towns that are being used as community hubs or for other purposes. I could talk about empty pubs in Finglas village and derelict sites in Ballymun or Santry. Those urban villages all have the same needs and I would argue that they all have the same integrity. I know Ms Graham does not mean it in that sense of the word. There are distinct geographic areas that make up a city. If we are going to be more sustainable and have 15-minute cities, urban villages must increasingly become places where people connect so that people are not travelling into and out of the city all the time and rather are travelling into their local village. Particularly on Town Centre First, are those urban villages eligible for the policy tools I talked about for hubs etc. or is that exclusively for rural towns?

Ms Maria Graham:

Fintan O'Brien might want to come in on focused towns, but the principles will apply to the city so they are not excluded from the URDF.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the principal vehicle for those urban villages.

Ms Maria Graham:

That is the principle. When I said integrity, it was more related to, for example, Santry being beside other areas, as the Deputy said. There is a bit about the community but there is a bit about how they engage with the rest of the community and how the whole city engages together. That is what I was clumsily trying to say.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

I agree with what Ms Graham said about Town Centre First. While this Department is very focused on rural areas, there are some funding streams for things such as hubs that the Deputy mentioned. We funded the development of hubs in some of those urban villages he mentioned through various schemes. One of the schemes we launched recently helped to develop existing infrastructure in those hubs, including additional seating and Covid-related social distancing facilities. While we are quite rural focused given the nature of the Department, some of our schemes cover those urban villages the Deputy mentioned.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for not being here for all the presentations; I had to speak in the Chamber. Most of my questions are local ones if the witnesses do not mind. There were some very welcome announcements recently related to Town Centre First fund, specifically for Lusk. I have the overall view but we are looking forward to getting the granular detail. At the same time health checks were announced for Naul and Oldtown in my area. Both could really benefit from this. What is the timeline for delivery of these health checks? When will they happen and how will that look? Will Naul and Oldtown both be eligible for Town Centre First funding?

Ms Maria Graham:

Fintan O'Brien might want to answer about the specific funding for towns today. The Department of Rural and Community Development is looking after town regeneration officers and some of the town master planning.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

A couple of strands are important in establishing Town Centre First, TCF. We have given €100,000 to 26 towns to support developing the Town Centre First plan itself. We see that very much as a first phase of that funding. I think the Deputy is referring to funding under the town and village renewal scheme for Naul and Oldtown. I do not see any issue with crossover there.

We have also allocated funding for town regeneration officers in local authorities. We secured that funding in budget 2022. Earlier we talked about the national structures. It is about getting to the final bits of detail and putting them in place. We have funding. We have had very good discussions with the CCMA on how to roll them out. We hope to start to put them in place in the coming weeks. They will be key enablers and key drivers for towns across local authorities in the coming months as we roll TCF out. I hope that addresses the Deputy's question.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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It does indeed. I thank Mr O'Brien.

My next question relates to the derelict sites register. In Fingal there were three properties on it as of December 2020. No additional sites were added to that and the local authority did not collect a single cent under the derelict sites levy in 2020. Six sites on the vacant sites register that are vacant now were vacant on the register in 2020. They were worth over €55 million but not a cent was collected on that. Fingal County Council is losing out on money here. Has the Department provided assistance for the collection of this money? What level of engagement has there been?

My next question is very parochial and one on which I have asked a number of parliamentary questions. I am looking for guidance and assistance from the witnesses. The HSE owns derelict houses on HSE land in Portrane in my constituency. I understand that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has no hostility to working to get these brought back into use. Who needs to make the final decision on this? I have corresponded with the Minister. He is aware of this; it is in his own area. It needs a push to get it started. In the meantime, several houses could be brought back into use. In their day they were really decent family homes and we would like to see them brought back into use. It is not fully the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and not fully the responsibility of the Department of Health. The Department of Health owns the land and the houses, but it does not have the capacity to do anything with them. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has the capacity but it does not own the land and houses. It just needs somebody to take the initiative on this. I have asked both Departments and both of them have said they have no problem with somebody taking an initiative but nobody is taking an initiative.

Ms Maria Graham:

I will deal with the question on derelict sites first. Last November we initiated a call to local authorities to review the Act to see if any operational tweaks could be made to the legislation to improve it. I have committed here to giving the data we have on derelict sites, which would obviously reflect what the Deputy is saying about Fingal but to give that in a global sense. We are very open to proposing legislative changes or seeing if some local authorities are better in their practice and seeing if that practice can be rolled out. We see that very much as part of what the Town Centre First policy might do.

In terms of properties that are derelict, our Secretary General has written to all Secretaries General to see what portfolio projects they may have that could be used. There is an action under Housing for All for State properties that are underutilised. Many of the structures that are in Housing for All are looking at driving these actions in combination and how this might be brought forward. First, we must get the data on what is out there but also on what mechanisms we can use. We are looking with the Housing Agency to see if it has a role, because sometimes it can activate issues more easily as a single body than multiple local authorities, for example, dealing with HSE properties. We have a number of funding schemes. Many of them are focused on individuals. The Croí Cónaithe towns funding is for individuals, but we are looking with the regional assemblies at European funding that is due to be finalised at the end of the second quarter to see if there are gaps where resourcing could be put in place. It is something we are actively looking at. We have had a couple of examples of a similar nature shared today where there are properties that may not be owned by Departments but are in the State's portfolio and could be brought into use. We are very anxious to see that happen. It would be a common community response to see such projects activated.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The issue for me is that nobody is saying "No". I would nearly prefer if one Department said it was not doing that because we could have a proper conversation about the issue. It is not unique to my area, but when I walk past the houses, I see they are falling further into dereliction, and it will be increasingly expensive to bring them back into use. Some catalyst will have to be deployed to get the ball rolling on this because both Departments are saying they are not hostile to derelict houses being developed, but they are still not being developed. Would Ms Graham be able to give me a sense of when we could expect to see these houses coming back into use?

Ms Maria Graham:

I do not think I can give the Deputy that, but by the end of the second quarter we will know the full range of financial supports that are available. The issue will be how we do it, not where.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Graham.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to come back to an area that may have been covered earlier. I apologise if it was because, like Deputy O'Reilly, I was in the Chamber. I refer to compulsory purchase orders, CPOs. Local authorities have spent millions on what could be described as the unsuccessful pursuit of properties. In many cases, it is not as much the availability of resources as the chilling effect a bad case can have. Local authorities ask why they would spend hundreds of thousands of euro pursuing a single property when it might get nowhere in the courts and it could spend the money on developing housing. One of the big issues we have is a reluctance by officials to go down the road of CPOs at all. Whatever powers we give and whatever changes we make in the area, we must also give confidence to local authority officials that they can pursue matters.

The second point is that it is far too cumbersome to secure properties. I do not represent the area any longer, but there are two properties on Walsh Road and everybody in the whole of Drumcondra knows the two houses are collapsing in on top of each other. There are huge problems. Ten years after I raised the issue on the council, those properties are still there for all the complicated reasons that exist. There are many similar properties around Dublin city. Often, it can come down to the financial capacity of the owners of the properties or other limiting capacities. People may have other issues. On a different site in my area, somebody inherited a very large property but does not have the mental health resilience to be able to take on a project of that size. Active land management must be the key here. We need to empower local authorities not just to tackle vacancy but to undertake active land management whereby solutions are put together for landowners that otherwise would not have the financial or business acumen or inclination to proceed with a project.

Providing them is one thing, but sometimes local authorities have to put together a solution to unlock the potential of a site. Vacancy officers are one element in the equation, but in Ballymun, for example, we have an economic officer specifically for that electoral district within the city. It is unique to Dublin City Council. He actively tries to unlock the potential of units that are developed, for example, that have large fit-out costs or leases that are taking too long to get through the local authority or for whatever other reason. That is what we need to see both in terms of vacancy and CPOs. I ask Ms Graham to tackle those big areas.

Ms Maria Graham:

In terms of CPO, the Law Reform Commission is looking at CPO legislation. Large portions of it date back to the 19th century. Deputy McAuliffe rightly said it is quite cumbersome and it needs to be modernised. Some aspects of it will come up in the context of the planning review. It has been highlighted as an area of difficulty. In the meantime, one of the measures the Housing Agency has put in place is a dedicated procurement unit with CPO advice so that it can advise local authorities. It produces guidance around that and will continue to do it. Bridging finance will come from the Housing Finance Agency, in particular if local authorities want to compulsorily purchase properties, as we envisage under Housing for All, and put them out to the market. As Deputy McAuliffe says, quite often it is the case the individual who owns a property does not have the wherewithal for a number of reasons to bring it back into use. We do need to look at what risks a local authority might face in that regard and ensure we mitigate the risks so that local authorities can move with a degree of confidence even in a complex process. That is what we are trying to work on at the moment and then see what comes from the Law Reform Commission in terms of revamping the CPO legislation.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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There is the issue of the first phase of the urban regeneration development fund, URDF, and the second phase. The only project to benefit from the URDF in my constituency was €37,000 for a feasibility study on the Dunsink lands. Some of my colleagues asked me if it was €40 million, and I said it was just €37,000. That was a case of the local authority using money to carry out a feasibility study with the intention of possibly applying again. Fingal County Council has suggested rezoning the Dunsink lands as part of its development plan, which it had not otherwise planned to do. The question is if there will be a link between different phases where local authorities might provide an early phase for feasibility and then larger amounts. Has the Department had detailed discussions with Fingal County Council in regard to the Dunsink lands? This is an extensive land bank on the edge of the city but very close to existing communities that would have concerns.

Ms Maria Graham:

I ask Ms Clifford to come in on that. It was the case that the first call resulted in a lot of feasibility studies and we are seeing more projects as we go on. Ms Clifford might speak about Fingal in particular.

Ms Lisa Clifford:

Two projects were approved for Fingal in the second call. The major one was the regeneration of Balbriggan. Deputy McAuliffe is correct that €40,000 was given to Fingal to do the feasibility study on the Dunsink site. It is with a view to seeing what needs to be invested to develop that site in the future. There are two aspects to that. The first is the development of the site, but the council also needed to undertake a number of environmental surveys on the site to see the extent of investment that might be needed going forward.

To go back to a point Ms Graham made earlier, our next call is focused on town centre first, but thereafter we will have a call that is focused on the cities, and it will look to those large-scale, strategic sites that need to be developed and the suite of infrastructure that might need to be put in place there. We have a number of those feasibility master planning projects in train that will feed into the larger capital projects going forward. The Naas Road is another example.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is welcome but there are three caveats I would put on it. First, it is a very complicated site that has a large population of the Traveller community who would need to be consulted. Second, there have long been promises that the site would be for sports and recreation facilities. Third, Fingal County Council has a long history of building large unsupported residential developments on the edge of Dublin city, Meakstown being the classic one where housing was provided and the community facilities are only now following, 15 years later. We cannot see that on the Dunsink lands, even though there is great potential on that site. Of course, there is also the observatory, which is a little gem. I would love to see more people getting access even to the grounds if not to the observatory itself.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I have heard the Deputy raise that issue in the Dáil Chamber as well. I agree with him.

Is the Law Reform Commission looking at compulsory sales orders? We have heard talk about compulsory sales orders and we know about CPO. Are compulsory sales orders on the agenda at all? I know Scotland was looking at them but it ran into constitutional difficulties.

Ms Maria Graham:

I am not sure. It is a while since we had a presentation from the commission on what it was doing so I am not sure.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We might ask them ourselves. I call Deputy Gould.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the town and village renewal scheme, I asked a question of the Minister and the Department in regard to Blackpool village, which is in Cork city. Blackpool is probably one of the most historic areas in Cork, with the history of the area going back hundreds of years. We have villages within cities which have their own identification and the people associate with them. Should they not qualify under the town and village scheme? Blackpool is an area I have been looking to have regenerated for decades. It has huge issues around flooding and dereliction and, to me, this area would be perfect for that scheme. Is it possible to include villages within cities or towns? I know a population of less than 10,000 is required under the town and village renewal scheme but Blackpool is losing out because it is part of Cork city and it is not seen as a village in itself.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

As the town and village scheme is currently constituted, Blackpool would not be seen as eligible as it is part of the city. I understand the point the Deputy is making. Our focus, as the Department of Rural and Community Development, is very much on the rural side so it is currently not covered under the town and village renewal scheme.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. With regard to sanctions for local authorities which do not collect the derelict sites levy or which do not list sites as derelict sites, is there anything we can do to ensure local authorities deliver? The figures I have are astounding, given the number of local authorities not even putting sites on the list or not collecting the levy. If we are going to tackle dereliction, this is one of the tools we would need. Is there any way we can compel local authorities to do what is covered by legislation?

Ms Maria Graham:

As I mentioned, we are doing a review with local authorities and, in terms of any legislative proposals, we would be happy to make it more workable so local authorities do put things on the register. They are sometimes working through difficult problems with people. What we are trying to do is get behind some of the issues that have been raised in this committee, in the Dáil and elsewhere around the obvious levels of dereliction in areas and the fact those sites are not on the derelict sites register. There are some reasons for that - for example, it only covers urban areas - but we are trying to get behind that. When we have that exercise concluded, we will be happy to come back to the committee.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is one question I asked earlier and I am not sure if it has been answered as I had to go to the justice committee. Last year, I was informed there were only three full-time vacant homes officers in the 31 local authorities. The Minister then announced in November that there was an initial €10,000 on top of the existing €50,000 to ensure that every local authority will have a full-time vacant homes officer. Has every local authority got a full-time vacant homes officer? I believe the €60,000 should be more like €260,000 because there should be a team in each local authority to tackle vacancy.

Ms Maria Graham:

When we sent out the circular approving the increase and asking them to ensure there was a full-time officer, we also asked them to come back because, obviously, they had to put arrangements in place. We have had a number of people coming back but they all have to come back. The funding for the vacant homes officers was pre-funded up to June of this year so they are coming back to us over the coming months. We expect them all to be full-time and that is what we have asked for, and we do not have any indications otherwise. We expect to get a report for each authority over the coming months on the arrangements they have put in place. We had one session with all of the vacant homes officers in January. As many of the measures are rolled out, we expect we will be having further sessions with them.

We are looking more deeply at the resourcing of local authorities to deal with both planning and town centre issues and it may well show that more resources are required. We are working with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, to look at what gaps there may be at the moment, what future gaps there may be and what skills gaps there may be. That ultimately may lead to engagement with the third level sector to deal with the kind of skills that are required for the future. There is a piece of work under way on it that will be finished by the summer.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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As public representatives, we often get suggestions that town X gets everything and town Y gets nothing, or district X gets all the funding and district Y does not. When the Department is trying to judge the applications, does it try to look for equity across the country based on per capitaor population figures? This is very substantial and significant funding that can lift any town or village, so we are trying to make sure everybody gets a chance at it.

Ms Maria Graham:

I might ask Ms Clifford to come in on the project appraisal board. We run a number of tests across it and that is one of them. That is one of the reasons why we would now be talking about the move from competitive bidding, which has worked very well for authorities that have projects thought about and developed, to working with local authorities to bring projects forward. For authorities that perhaps have not quite got to that stage, rather than having them keep submitting projects that do not meet the criteria, we work with them to bring a project to fruition.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Is feedback given to them?

Ms Maria Graham:

We have given feedback on each but a lot of work sometimes goes into putting in a competitive bid and, at some point, we exhaust the competitive bidding process. To get that balance, we need to look at it and, for example, decide that area X does not have any projects and that, in fact, we need to work with that authority so it brings them forward and that we give it more support in terms of the type of projects the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, can fund, rather than having it try to submit something that misses the mark.

Ms Clifford chairs the project appraisal board so she might comment.

Ms Lisa Clifford:

At the back of our mind always is the national planning framework and making sure we get the investments in the towns that have been identified for ERDF investments so they achieve the objectives they need to from a development perspective. The first two calls were very useful, as Ms Graham said, in terms of bringing forward projects that were already thought through and were a certain degree along the line. When we were looking back at both of the calls and reviewing once the announcements were made, it was very clear there were a number of areas where, from a national planning framework, NPF, perspective, we need investment but the right projects had not come through. That has influenced our thinking in terms of working more directly with the local authorities going forward, particularly those local authorities where we can see there are gaps in their development objectives where we need to target investment. That is what is guiding how we are going to develop the next call, moving slightly away from the more competitive element of it and really targeting the investment in those gap areas where, from an NPF perspective, the ERDF has not found the right project yet.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will give Mr. O'Brien the last word on it.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien:

On that point, there are a number of different approaches across our schemes. Quality is obviously a major issue when it comes to the best use of public funds, but we are also aware of the imperative around balanced regional development. We have a number of conditions within schemes to help that along. For example, in respect of the town and village renewal scheme, we look at minimum levels of funding for counties to make sure there is no risk of being completely left behind. We make sure there is a maximum number of applications per local authority in order that a scheme is not dominated by particular areas. Overall, we track that and keep an eye on the regional spread. We have published some maps, including heat maps, relating to the spread of those proposals and projects that are funded. Quality is a significant issue for us but we keep regional spread in mind. As Ms Graham said, there is an element of us supporting those areas that may not have been as successful in the past and keeping an eye on that. We certainly believe that the element in Town Centre First of upskilling towns, and bringing towns and communities along to be able to make the best of those funding opportunities, is also important.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That brings us to the end of our time. This is the fourth meeting in the series of four we have had. They have been very informative and interesting for the committee. We have had very good engagement on this matter and we will now produce a report on it. Aside from the Housing for All policy, which contains some very good objectives, if we can successfully implement many of the objectives in the Town Centre First policy and Our Rural Future policy document, we will go a long way towards achieving balanced development and a significant distance in rejuvenating many of our towns and villages that have started to decay over the years. The objectives are there, the funding is there, which is also incredibly important, and the political will is there to deliver on that.

I thank Ms Graham, Mr. Logan and Ms Clifford, in addition to Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Mulherin and Mr. Forsyth, for their engagement.