Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to welcome our guests. This meeting has been convened with representatives from the Irish Theatre Institute, Safe Arts of Ireland and the Arts Council to discuss a safe and respectful working environment in the arts. On behalf of the committee, I warmly welcome Ms Jane Daly and Ms Siobhán Bourke, co-directors of the Irish Theatre Institute; Ms Ciara Lynch and Ms Jessica Traynor, Safe Arts of Ireland; and Ms Maureen Kennelly, director, and Ms Liz Meaney, arts director of the Arts Council. I will invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As witnesses will probably be aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its web page following today's meeting.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to any identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with this direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that the provisions in Standing Orders in relation to matters that are sub judiceplace an onus on members to avoid, if at all possible, comment that might affect or prejudice the outcome of proceedings or further proceedings before the courts.

I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present in the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to attend otherwise. I ask members to identify themselves when contributing via Microsoft Teams for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report, and to mute their microphones when not contributing in order to reduce background noise and feedback. I also ask everyone to put their phones on silent or airplane mode, or to switch them off.

I know Ms Kennelly has to leave us early because she has to attend a plenary meeting of the Arts Council. We understand that and it is fine. I invite her to make her opening statement.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

The recent report brought forward by the Irish Theatre Institute highlights the gravity of the situation as regards having a safe and respectful environment working in the arts and it emphasises for us all the need for immediate and urgent action. In that regard, I am grateful to the committee for the opportunity to address it today so that we may all work together to remedy this situation. As members know, the Arts Council is the Irish Government agency for developing the arts. We work in partnership with artists, arts organisations, policymakers and others to build a central place for the arts. Our ten-year strategy is Making Great Art Work. Through that, we set out to spend funding strategically and we are determined that all of our actions reflect the long-term interests of the public.

Our strategy outlines five values and I want to touch on them with members because they are relevant to today’s topic. These values are: freedom of thought and of expression; commitment to excellence in all aspects of what we do and among those we support; integrity, accountability and transparency in all of our decision-making, especially our investment of public moneys; respect for diversity of artistic practice, public engagement and social and cultural traditions; and collegiality, communicating and working respectfully with partners, stakeholders and the whole arts sector. That final value is particularly pertinent to today’s topic. These values are given life through our policies and actions, which I will address shortly.

I want to talk about our dignity at work policy, which is primarily internally focused. We are aware that the standards we uphold must be as high as those we expect of the arts sector. This policy states that we recognise the right of all employees to be treated with dignity and respect and that we are committed to ensuring that all employees are provided with a safe and respectful working environment, free from all forms of bullying, sexual harassment and other harassment.

We introduced our Paying the Artist policy in February 2020. We are concerned with the rights and needs of artists as workers. Our vision is for an Ireland where artists and practitioners, whose exceptional talent and commitment lead them to work professionally in the arts, can have productive and rewarding careers. We seek to create an environment in which artists can make work of ambition and quality, and be paid appropriately. That is very important to us. We know pay is not the only issue contributing to the precariousness of artists’ lives. However, we also know that if artists are not properly paid for their work, a career in the arts is not viable. There are many variations in pay across the different disciplines and many contractual issues, which can lead to further vulnerability and heightened risks for those working within the arts.

We introduced our equality, human rights and diversity policy in early 2019 and it is probably the most pertinent policy in terms of today’s subject matter. In everything we do we strive to respect, support and ensure the inclusion of all voices and cultures that make up Ireland today, from all sections of society, including existing and new communities, and from all social backgrounds, ethnicities and traditions.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Kennelly has run out of time. I know she has to leave early so I want to give her an opportunity to contribute again. We will have an opportunity to go through the full statement through our questions. I call Ms Bourke and Ms Daly to deliver the Irish Theatre Institute’s opening statement.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

I thank the committee for the invitation to address it on what is a serious problem facing the arts sector in Ireland. With me today is my colleague, Ms Jane Daly. Since 2017, we have been co-leads of the Speak Up initiative under the auspices of the Irish Theatre Institute, a leading national resource organisation for the professional Irish theatre sector. The Speak Up: A Call for Change report clearly illustrates that the time for change of behaviour in the arts sector has arrived. Harmful behaviour in the workplace is not the preserve of the arts; it is a societal issue as recent reports from other sectors have shown, including law, sport, and the military. The Irish Theatre Institute’s Speak Up report lays out the evidence illustrating that change is urgent. Harmful behaviour can and must no longer be tolerated. The arts sector needs reliable supports and certainty that accountability and consequence will be observed institutionally, organisationally, collectively and individually.

It is evident from the statistical analysis carried out in the Speak Up report that the Irish arts sector has a significant problem. This research, which surveyed over 1,300 people on their arts workplace experiences, found, through rigorous analysis led by Dr. Ciara Murphy, that respondents had experienced, witnessed, or both, some form of harmful behaviours. These included bullying, harassment, sexual harassment, victimisation, humiliation, assault and sexual assault. These problems have been hiding in plain sight for years. We are calling on the Oireachtas to address these issues and make the arts sector a safe place to create.

Irish equality legislation states the need to eliminate discrimination and promote equality. This includes a right to dignity in the workplace. The Irish arts sector is a poorly paid one, even for those in employment. It is one where individuals experience precarious and uncertain working conditions. This often leads to imbalances of power and situations where dignity in the workplace issues arise, as evidenced in the survey’s findings. The pilot basic income scheme for artists introduced by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, is a hugely important measure in this regard.

Ms Jane Daly:

The Irish Theatre Institute made five realistic recommendations in our Speak Up: A Call for Change report, some of which are in train, led by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, in consultation with the Department of Justice and in collaboration with Screen Ireland and the Arts Council. The recommendations include both short-term, practical initiatives and the longer-term challenge of changing mindsets, behaviours and culture. We are asking for a resourced action plan with timelines, led by the Government, the Minister and relevant agencies, to be formulated and implemented and this should be rooted in equality legislation. It must address the need for change at a systemic level, which will require cross-departmental engagement, given how widespread the problem is.

We must all act together. We have the evidence, the issue has been measured, the report is published, we have recommendations and we need to implement them now. It is no longer acceptable to do nothing. We know that behaviours in perpetrators can escalate if not addressed early on, particularly where they occur with impunity. It is no longer acceptable for the people who make our arts sector shine nationally and internationally to be made to create work in unsafe environments. The voices of the 1,343 participants in the Speak Up survey, including campaigners such as FairPlé, Mise Fosta and Safe Arts of Ireland, SAOI, are the agents of change for the arts sector. Their voices and first-hand experiences are what inform the recommendations of the report. Speak Up: A Call for Change aims to create a safe and truly respectful working environment for the arts and for perpetrators to know their time is up.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

A chairde, SAOI thanks the committee for the opportunity to speak and we welcome this step towards addressing the issues of safety in the arts. Founded in 2020, SAOI is an umbrella group of activists representing artists and arts workers across multiple sectors of the Irish arts, including poetry, fiction, publishing, comedy, theatre and music, among others. While the settings of our workplaces may vary, we have found unfortunate commonalities in the patterns of abuse, harassment, and bullying that are experienced in the course of our work as artists. Together, we are seeking meaningful, committed and measurable change to make the working lives of artists safe and equitable.

Recent events in Irish society around femicide and violence towards women and minorities have provided yet another wake-up call that there is something rotten in our society. Every few years it seems, the women and minority groups of Ireland must sit quietly while society at large wrings its hands and asks how these terrible events could have occurred. The answer is systemic issues around power and misogyny which are rife all across our society. The arts world is no different.

Since forming SAOI, we have twice met the Arts Council to discuss funding and accountability of publicly-funded arts bodies, and we have requested meetings with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. An open letter to the Arts Council and the Minister highlighting the need for a safer working environment has been signed by over 300 artists under our earlier organisational name, Wake Up Irish Poetry. In our meetings with organisations and individuals the message has been that the issue is not one that Government or funding bodies can solve. We have been told it is the role of individuals to police their own behaviour and that the inherent power imbalances within the arts world are somehow naturally occurring and cannot be addressed. We have been told that if a crime has occurred, the Garda should be involved. When we propose prevention, we are told that crisis management is enough.

I would like the committee to imagine these arguments being made in the area of child protection policy, an area which is currently, rightly, addressed and safeguarded by policy in arts funding. Indeed, I ask members to imagine it in the area of financial governance. In other workplaces, if a person feels that inappropriate sexual advances have been made, or if someone is being harassed or discriminated against, there is a HR system in place through which complaints can be made. No such structures exist for freelancers in the Irish arts world. Existing complaints channels often call for the complainant to address the perpetrator directly. In other cases, perpetrators may either be on a board of management or have hand-picked the board of management to whom complaints are directed. There is no neutral body to which individuals can complain, and no transparent system for recording and following up on complaints made.

It is unacceptable for arts workers to have no course for redress against often powerfully resourced individuals and organisations. When individuals make complaints, they run the risk of losing work, wider blacklisting, and in some cases, allegations of defamation and risk of lawsuit.

We are calling for action to be taken by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, the Department of Justice, and other relevant Government bodies to address this situation, and to create a new independent body to which complaints can be made by both non-contracted and contracted workers and artists. This request does not appear to be covered in the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, of a suite of actions subsequent to the Speak Up: A Call for Change report. To reiterate what our colleagues in Fair Plé have already raised in their meeting with the Oireachtas committee, measures need to be long term, sustainable and fully funded.

Our requests are simple. They have been implemented in other areas of public life. The roadmap is in place. This committee and the Government need to take a leap of imagination to consider the safety of women and minorities in the arts as being as important as the safety of the population at large.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Traynor for her very powerful opening statement. I remind members that they will have five minutes for questions and answers.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask my questions for all three groups together to allow time to answer. Ms Traynor of SAOI referred to the recommendations made by Fair Plé relating to conditions for receiving funding. I ask Ms Kennelly to give her opinion on this and also to state whether the Arts Council would consider the introduction of these recommendations.

Could Ms Traynor confirm that SAOI was not offered a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and if so, what was the reason? What are the main barriers preventing SAOI from reaching its goals?

Which of the Irish Theatre Institute's recommendations are not being dealt with or implemented following the Speak Up: A Call for Change report? I know Ms Traynor said the Minister had taken some of them on board. Which of them I have not been dealt with that ought to be dealt with?

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

In response to the Speak Up: A Call for Change report, we have introduced a new condition for all our recipients whereby they must notify us that they have taken all necessary actions over complaints of poor behaviour on behalf of a board member or staff member. We assess all applicants on the basis of their equality, diversity and inclusion policies and also in terms of their governance, which obviously includes HR.

On the wider question about the recommendations, we are involved in devising training with Screen Ireland to offer training relating to bullying and harassment, and bystander training. We will continue to work with the Irish Theatre Institute on the further implementation of the recommendations. On an ongoing basis we will continue to work with groups such as SAOI and others to hear their concerns and respond to their needs. We recognise the systemic nature of this. By driving through the equality, human rights and diversity emphasis we hope to influence change. In addition, we are assessing and scoring organisations based on how well they are doing on equality, diversity and inclusion. That will have a real impact as the years go on.

We are also committed to examining the appropriate channels for the reporting of complaints relating to our funded organisations by third parties. That is something we will be looking at during the year.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

We were not offered a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. We welcome that we were invited here today to make this statement. I personally represent the literature sector. One of the main issues we face in meeting our goals is the lack of a framework for accountability. We would welcome the inclusion of firm anti-sexual harassment policies as conditions of funding. Until those things are built into the funding application, whether that comes directly from the Department or through the Arts Council or other bodies, then there really is no framework for accountability and prevention. As everybody has said, we are looking at how we can solve these systemic issues from the ground up. I will ask my colleague, Ms Lynch, to speak about the comedy sector which is slightly different.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

I echo everything that Ms Traynor said. Comedy is not recognised under the Arts Act 2003 meaning that we are in an even more vulnerable situation. I personally know that what is going on there is horrific. That is our main barrier. We have absolutely no protection. We do not get funding from the Arts Council and we are not protected by anyone. Awful illegal things are happening

Ms Jane Daly:

As we said in our statement, some of our recommendations are short-term initiatives that can be enacted very quickly and others require longer-term cultural change. In the immediate term, there has been some positive change in terms of recommendations we have made. The Arts Council has referred to conditions of funding and Screen Ireland has also introduced this in its funding criteria. Compliance with those funding criteria is very important. Those criteria will only be effective if they are monitored and the recipients of awards are actually proven to be compliant with the terms and conditions of funding.

We have been working closely with Minding Creative Minds, the organisation set up largely by the music industry in June 2020 which offers counselling services. It has worked in collaboration with us and departmental officials to look at introducing some of the recommendations we made in the report, including the introduction of a 24-hour helpline for people who have experienced these harmful behaviours. That initiative will be piloted very shortly with bespoke counselling services and referral services for people who experienced that.

One of the recommendations that needs to be addressed immediately relates to leadership within the sector and across the sector. We want to see organisations, institutions, individuals and key players across the arts sector stand up and support this work openly and vocally. Considerable progress needs to be made on the short-term initiatives. The larger systemic and cultural changes need to start happening now and not wait for other people to start the process for them.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We have run out of time. However, does Deputy Munster have anything she would like to add briefly?

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kennelly said the Arts Council was implementing certain aspects. I did not get a direct response on whether the Arts Council would consider the introduction of the recommendations made by Fair Plé in their totality. I would like an answer to that.

Regarding what SAOI has outlined, should the committee write to the Minister asking her to address the matter of the independent body to allow artists and workers to report incidents, make complaints and raise concerns? The Irish Theatre Institute proposed that the Minister should lead in providing a timelined and resourced action plan to address the recommendation in the Speak Up: A Call for Change report. Would it be helpful for the committee to write to the Minister on both of those matters? It is important to ensure we follow up on this engagement. If the rest of the committee agreed with that, it might be a useful exercise to try to extract answers.

We should also ask the Minister to meet representatives of SAOI. My first part was to ask Ms Kennelly if the Arts Council would consider the recommendations made by Fair Plé.

I know she said there were certain aspects but I do not believe I got a definitive response as to whether they would introduce the recommendations in their totality.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

To clarify, does Deputy Munster mean the recommendations of the Speak Up report?

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

We are absolutely committed to working with ITI and others to make sure the recommendations are implemented. They are obviously at different phases but we are committed to them.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What about the recommendations by Fair Plé?

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

My understanding is that Fair Plé is an independent body and has fed into this report. We are working on this as a collaborative piece of work we are using to-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have to move on as we have gone over time. On Deputy Munster's first piece about liaising with the Minister and requesting a meeting with her, I believe we can do that. On the other suggestions, perhaps we could bring them back and discuss them as a committee, because not all members are in the room, to tease that out further at our next private session. Is that okay with the Deputy?

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all our witnesses not only for coming here and raising these issues but also for the work they have been doing in this area. Everyone around the table strongly agrees that all work environments, particularly the arts and creative industries, should be a safe and respectful as well as rewarding sector in which to work. It comes to the point raised about the power imbalance, which is a particular problem in the arts and creative sector where many people are self-employed and elements of the gig economy are present. I raised a Commencement matter this morning on the basic income. That could help in giving artists security. My first question is around our role as legislators on that power imbalance. What can we do as legislators? There are obviously responsibilities with the Arts Council, which Ms Kennelly has addressed, but what can we do as legislators?

I am conscious of another piece of legislation we are dealing with, the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, which deals with a lot of what is happening within the online space. Increasingly, the creative sector is moving into the online space. Do the witnesses have views on what we know to be happening within the online sector?

Perhaps the witnesses might be able to give examples of organisations they believe have been successful in implementing codes of good behaviour or that are examples of good practice, that is to say, suggesting to others to look at what is being done by specific organisations. Some of it may be learning from an experience they have had but others may have been proactive. I would be grateful if whichever of the three witnesses wants to take those three questions.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

I will speak on the Comedy Safety Standards experience. We were set up in 2020 on the back of more revelations, so there was the impetus to do more for this. We did all that work ourselves. What helped, and this is something that could be done quickly by legislators, was that we linked up with the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, DRCC. It provided bespoke training for what we needed. It dealt with issues like myths and attitudes we hold in society about sexual violence. It very much dealt with power imbalances and provided real-life case studies that have happened. That training was especially good. As was said earlier, we need to link training with funding to make sure, because we all just need to learn and understand these issues that are systemic. We grew up in a culture in which these things were and are allowed to happen. It is about everybody learning. With the Arts Council already linked with Screen Ireland, if they were linked with the DRCC as well, all three could provide excellent training.

On the protected disclosure matter, I know a new Bill has been introduced but I am not sure if it covers the arts or freelance workers. I heard the Minister, Deputy McGrath, talking about it this morning. These actions are already happening but why are the arts being left out all the time?

The provision of counselling and therapy is another issue. For the likes of Fair Plé, which has received so many disclosures down through the years, the people involved need therapy and the people who have experienced what we have experienced in the arts sector need counselling and therapy as well.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

I am happy to say there are some examples of good practice and they have been prompted by the continuing debate, but also, with our increased investment from Government, we have been able to bring forward a new scheme called the capacity building scheme, whereby we want organisations to look at themselves and see how they can upgrade in terms of this. We have an umbrella organisation called Words Ireland for the literature sector that is bringing forward a code of behaviour for that sector. I am sure Ms Traynor is familiar with that. Some very good work is being done in that regard. Another example is the Fishamble theatre company. It has a very good equality, diversity and inclusion policy. There are many other examples.

The more people become in tune with the scoring and assessments, the greater the need for them to comply with the Arts Council. We assure the committee that we will be enforcing this. People will see an impact on their funding if we find they are not measuring up to the standards we expect.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone want to take the online issue, which relates to legislation we are dealing with directly?

Ms Jane Daly:

In the course of our research, we went outside the arts sector and worked closely with people in the education sector, for example, particularly with Professor Louise Crowley in UCC, who is an expert in bystander training. What was always uppermost in our minds was that this is a cross-societal issue. Online is a place where people can both experience negative behaviour and achieve a huge amount. One of our recommendations is the creation of an anonymous online reporting system modelled on the system introduced at third level and which is in place in NUI Galway and UCC. Similarly, we are creating an online portal, which is in development, where there will be resources for individuals who experience negative behaviour and for organisations to discover how they can upskill their practices in terms of better behaviours and better practices. For the past two years, we have been operating almost exclusively online in the arts sector, unfortunately. There are issues in terms of bullying that are reflected in a small percentage of our respondents. The online world affects everybody across every aspect of society and that features in the recommendations of this report.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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I thank witnesses from SAOI, ITI, and the Arts Council for being here. The common thread in why we are here is to discuss the systemic nature, which the Arts Council acknowledged in its submission, of the culture of harassment and bullying within the sector. I acknowledge that the Arts Council does not cover all the arts, but it covers a large share of them. The requirement for leadership was raised and obviously the Arts Council has an important role in showing leadership.

This question is to Ms Kennelly. With regard to the weighting for equality, diversity and inclusion policies, what is that weighting and does it apply to all funding streams or funding programmes? Is it sufficiently comprehensive? Ms Traynor spoke about the requirement for anti-sexual harassment policies and a much more explicit type of policy. I would like to hear the detail with regards to the weighting.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

The weighting was introduced for the first time in the most recent funding round, and that was for what we call our strategically funded organisations and arts centres, which number approximately 150 organisations. We will be rolling it out to others. The weighting at present is 10%, but that is something we certainly will be reviewing for years to come. This is new for all of us, but it is something we are keeping under close review. I have to say that we were impressed with the level that people reached in this first year, but that is not to ignore that there is a huge amount of work to be done. That is why we want to help people through this. These publicly-funded organisations have a public sector duty. In tandem with all the other programmes it is about us informing these organisations of their obligations.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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Does it go far enough in terms of the Arts Council's current criteria?

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

I would say it does not, because it is new, but we will be able to review it all the time. We are learning ourselves with regard to the roll-out. By keeping such a close eye on it, we will be able to revise it upwards to make sure we can increase it.

Marie Sherlock (Labour)
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My second brief question relates to another very strong recommendation. Great credit is due to ITI, FairPlé and SAOI for the enormous work in terms of the research and bringing to light the experiences of women, and to ITI for bringing it together in systematic fashion. The second recommendation is with regard to strengthening reporting and support systems. We heard from FairPlé and SAOI regarding the need, as they see it, for an independent agency. The witness talked about the anonymous centralised reporting facility and how it is being rolled out in certain universities. What is the infrastructure as the witnesses would see it? Is it an independent agency or something else? Is it run out of one of the Departments? We saw the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin's, response to the report and the call for an independent agency was not reflected in that response. We will be calling on the Minister to engage with the witnesses. What is the witnesses' view on the infrastructure and, indeed, if other countries have done it well and if we could learn from that?

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

First, I do not think we have all the answers here. Our feeling and thoughts are that we believe there probably has to be a cross-departmental, cross-government approach. I understand the Department of Justice yesterday announced a new agency on domestic violence. It could be that an agency such as that might be able to fulfil some of these roles, but we are not privy to that information yet. Our feeling is that there should be a place where people can go to register their complaints anonymously and have a sense that they will be dealt with. There is some learning to be had in the third level sector. Working with the Department we know it is actively engaged in the process of seeing what learning can be had at third level so we can build something that is going to work for everybody. We did not call for a separate agency, certainly not a separate agency for the arts. We were trying to put in place measures that could be implemented now to deal with the people who are coming to our door, to the Arts Council and to the Department with complaints, measures that could be rolled out as soon as possible.

The difficulty is that as soon as one starts to think about what one of those would be, such as having a 24-hour helpline which we are doing with Minding Creative Minds, that all takes time. One must have the proper clinical approach, one has to test it all, one has to get all the partners in place and then one has to pilot it. We are about at the stage to pilot it and then in the future X number of months it will be rolled out, but it all takes time. In that sense for us in ITI and leading on Speak Up, we do not feel we have all the answers. We are in constant conversations with all the parties here and with Screen Ireland, the Department, FairPlé and others about what are the best next moves and how to make them.

Ms Jane Daly:

I will add to that. The key is collective responsibility and that we are not siloing the arts and saying it is only something that happens there, but that it is across society. The most powerful change will be when people collaborate collectively to find the best model, and not reinvent the wheel.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is very true. I thank Senator Sherlock for her questions. I call Senator Warfield. There are a few speakers ahead of you on the schedule, but they are not online at present so the floor is yours.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Many of my questions have been asked. I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. To pick up on Ms Daly's comment, I believe it relates to the first recommendation in the ITI report about mobilising sectoral institutional leaders, key talent and public figures. What do the witnesses think is holding people back from discussing these issues? Is it the next gig? Why are we not seeing more people and leaders in the industry, for example, musicians, coming forward to support the MiseFosta folks, the women in FairPlé and people such as Dr. Karan Casey, whom I commend and who appeared before the committee on the last occasion? It there something holding back people?

I commend Ms Kennelly on being honest about the equality, diversity and inclusion piece, which I know is a big focus for the Arts Council and has been for some time, and being open to future anti-sexual harassment policies.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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While the Senator thinks about his second question, I will ask the witnesses to respond to the first.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

It is hard to know why people do not connect and speak up. Ms Daly and I have been working on this since 2017 when the Department invited us to lead on the initiative in association with the Arts Council. We have had fabulous meetings that were very well-attended, but the gender breakdown was mostly women. That might be one issue - the need to bring men to the table. I will make some comments on traditional arts, although my area is theatre or television drama rather than traditional arts. In traditional arts, Dr. Úna Monaghan did an amazing study entitled "121 Stories: the impact of gender on participation in Irish traditional music". In that she talks about gender in traditional arts and she makes a very strong case that one's success is based on one's gender. To go back to the point Ms Daly made earlier, these issues are very deep and systemic, and we have to address them in many ways. That is why the equality legislation is probably the way in. It will just take time.

Combine that with the lack of awareness. A lot of the time people do not realise that their behaviour is off; they do not understand that. People might say there is no excuse for that in today's world and that people should know, but often people honestly do not know and do not realise that their behaviour is not appropriate. Sometimes when people are what we call key talent, leaders or stars there can be a sense that it is way people work, and perhaps there is a realisation that they need to go back and do training. In other areas of work there would be training. One would be required to do training in terms of work practices. It ties back to something that Ms Traynor said earlier. There is no well-developed HR system in the arts. Very few organisations have HR. According to my figures, an extraordinary number of people are in precarious work because they are freelancers. Some 78% of those working in the performing arts in 2019 were in precarious jobs. That is a massive figure. That, alone, is another of the big problems that have to be examined. There is a lack of security, with everybody being precarious and everybody going from one job to the next. That is why the basic income for the arts is very important. There is an important sense of security when people know there is going to be some money there, whereby if I go for a job and feel I am going to meet somebody with whom I have had negative or harmful experience in the past, I could pass that job and not take it on.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

There is a huge climate of fear as well. As an individual working in the arts there is the fear of losing work but there is also the fear of legal action. Under Ireland's defamation laws it is very difficult to speak out, and we often find ourselves in a position where we need to speak out publicly because of the lack of proper reporting and HR systems. That then puts the artist doubly at risk.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

It also makes the whisper networks start.

It is only the privileged people who are in the whisper networks who know to stay away from certain gigs and certain people. It is unacceptable.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

The work we are doing with regard to paying the artists very much ties into this. We are looking at improved conditions, employment structures and so on, and that is inextricably linked to this issue because reducing the precariousness will reduce how vulnerable people are within the sector.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Ms Kennelly said organisations have to notify the Arts Council of any HR issues. Did I hear that correctly?

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

That is right. A condition of them receiving funding is that they have to notify us if there have been allegations of inappropriate, wrongful or illegal behaviour and to reassure us they have taken the necessary actions to address that behaviour.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of the witnesses. I will be quick because most of the questions have been asked. As the witnesses will know, the Minister has announced the pilot basic income scheme for artists. Do they believe firm terms should be set within the scheme, whether legally or otherwise, to address the issues they have raised?

I will ask three other questions. The first is directed to the Irish Theatre Institute, ITI, and Safe Arts of Ireland, SAOI. The report, Speak Up: A Call For Change, recommends researching international standards, codes and practices. Has there been movement on this? Do the representatives know of any other practices internationally that have been found to work in addressing some of these issues?

My next question is for the Arts Council. As outlined in the opening remarks, if there is an issue in one of the organisations receiving grants regarding anyone acting illegally, wrongfully or inappropriately, the Arts Council must be notified. What actually happens after that notification?

I have another question for the Irish Theatre Institute. One of the recommendations in Speak Up: A Call For Change is that an interdepartmental working group should be developed "to ensure complementary actions and implementation measures across sectors such as Arts, Defence, Justice, Education". Has there been any update on this since publication? Has there been any indication from the Minister as to whether she will support setting up this initiative?

Ms Jane Daly:

I will respond to the point on international best practice. Over the past five years during which we have been working on this, we have been working and engaging with international organisations such as a safe arts body in Australia and, most recently, the international network for contemporary performing arts, IETM, which published a report at the same time we did entitled Gender and Power Relations, a call for structural change. What we have learned from engaging with international partners is that this is a worldwide issue. It is happening across the arts sector in every country. Everybody is facing the same challenges. There is nothing unusual about what is happening in Ireland. One of the recommendations is we work with international partners to find the best solutions and to identify those best practices internationally that Deputy Mythen has mentioned so that we can see what can be implemented here and have the same impact. That is why we call for further research in the report. That is just some information on the sort of engagement we are having abroad.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

With regard to interdepartmental work, as far as we are aware, the Department and the Department of Justice are working together closely on a number of initiatives. Fair Plé and SAOI would possibly be more across those initiatives than we are but we are acutely aware that those meetings have happened and that initiatives will be brought forward on which the two Departments are working together. A number of other Departments could be involved, perhaps including the Departments of Education and Health. A start has definitely been made with the Department of Justice.

Ms Maureen Kennelly:

In cases where there is evidence of wrongful, illegal or harmful behaviour, we seek to reassure ourselves that all necessary steps have been taken by the organisation in line with their HR policies. As I said earlier, we are asking organisations to comply and we are scoring them on this. Each will be looked at on its own merits but we look to the organisations to reassure us they have taken all necessary steps with regard to the staff member or board member in question.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

I would just like to jump in and say we are acutely aware of the large gaps in statutory protection for various people in the arts world in respect of things such as proper board structures. As I mentioned earlier, in the case of publishers, the director of the company is often also the sole board member. We can put in place all of the structures we want to try to protect people and create channels of complaint, but when the proper structures are not in place from the outset and when those things are not encouraged from the funding base upwards, we will not be able to solve the problems. As ITI has recommended, further research must be done to ensure we are reflecting the realities of the arts world and the very diverse organisational structures we are dealing with.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The first question I asked was on the pilot basic income scheme. Do the organisations believe there should be firm terms and conditions within that scheme to address the issues they are raising?

Ms Jessica Traynor:

It is an interesting one because most of us would see the beneficiaries of the basic income scheme as being the people who are quite disempowered under the current structure. However, the framework absolutely needs to be comprehensive and individuals need to sign up to the same standards as funding bodies.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, when there is a notification that someone has done something wrong, what actually happens to that person? What powers are there in that regard? Will Ms Traynor give us an example of what happens in that case?

Ms Jessica Traynor:

This is probably the biggest problem. All of us have experienced those approaches from individuals about circumstances that have arisen. In my own case, this happened very recently. The reality is there are people who are experiencing this in their working lives right now while we are sitting here talking about what we can do to resolve it. There is really nowhere they can go because they do not feel supported. They feel disempowered. One person who spoke to me very recently said they would just keep their head down and tell younger artists to do the same because sticking your head above the parapet to speak up is too terrifying and pointless. This is the situation we are in. We need sustainable, well-resourced supports for people who experience situations that are contrary to their right to dignity in the workplace. They must have resources that they can approach in confidence, knowing they will be treated with respect and supported through due process. That is what is missing in the system in the arts sector, but probably in the wider community as well.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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In Ms Daly's last comments, she underlined the seriousness of the issue, which is still ongoing. There is a closing of ranks and pushback from the sector when someone is brave enough to report something.

My first question is for ITI and Safe Arts of Ireland. The ITI report was published in October and there has been significant media coverage around it since then. We have an Oireachtas committee session on it and, as I have said, there has been media coverage. Have the people the witnesses' organisations represent seen any improvement with regard to the accessibility of reporting mechanisms and justice? Is it being talked about more within the arts community? Have there been any improvements whatsoever since the ITI report came to light?

Ms Jessica Traynor:

The answer from the ground up is "No". We very much welcomed the proposals the Minister, Deputy Martin, made but we have not seen any change as of yet. One of the reasons we are glad to be here is we wish to keep the issue topical, especially with regard to events regarding the treatment of women in Irish society more widely.

We believe it is important. Our colleagues at the Irish Theatre Institute will probably have a better sense of the small grassroots things that are changing but it has not been felt at the bottom of the ladder yet.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

It is very frustrating because nothing changes. It is very hard to make things happen. What the 1,300 people who responded to our survey were saying to us, and what they are pleased about, is a sense that their voices were heard. We are at that stage. We are not at the stage of measuring what they believe the impact was. One of the things we would like, and it is one of our recommendations, is for this kind of research to be done within very similar parameters every two years for the next five or ten years to get a sense of whether we are making improvements. Small things could be done. A suite of resources, in terms of providing supports, would be a big thing to have in place. That is coming. The 24-hour helpline is coming. The larger things around cultural change are going to take time. What we are seeing here is that there is a big commitment to this because as a society there is a big commitment to change. In society we are at the moment happy to have a conversation about gender. Irish society is just about now ready to have a conversation about gender. That is part of seeing progress.

Ms Jane Daly:

I agree with Ms Traynor and SAOI that not much change is being seen on the ground. We say in the report that there needs to be top-down change because the people who make up 63% of our respondents are freelance artists and they are the ones who are most disempowered and vulnerable. They are also the people who keep their heads down for fear of losing employment and in the knowledge that accountability and consequence do not really happen when issues are raised. I return to the issues of leadership and cross-agency, cross-departmental action. People have to be held to account. Leaders have to stand up. In our sector we are prepared to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to make change but we are just a small sector within a much larger sector. It is about calling on everybody to acknowledge that they are not perfect, that we all have flaws but that it is possible to change. In some cases that will take legislation and in some cases it will take conditions. For example, if you do not meet the criteria of your obligations, there will be consequences in terms of funding or losing your job. If there are criminal issues happening, and we know from the report that a percentage of respondents had experienced sexual assault, there will be prosecutions. The immediate answer is "no, not hugely", although the Minister has allocated funding and there are immediate things happening. The bigger issues are those for which we all have shared responsibility.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I will finish with a comment and a message for the Arts Council, for the Minister and for my colleagues in government. I am a member of a party that is part of the coalition. We had a session in November that was attended by representatives of Mise Fosta and Fair Plé. I chaired that session. It was one of the most emotional sessions that I can recall attending. We had women telling stories of sexual harassment that they experienced in the traditional music scene. It was appalling and horrifying to hear this. Clearly, we are not moving with enough pace in terms of implementing the suite of changes that the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, has suggested. There other things that are not part of the suite of changes like the statutory gaps that have been mentioned and the reporting mechanisms. I am not asking any questions, but saying that the clear message we need to send from this committee is that we need to act. It is four months since the report was established.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy O'Sullivan and the witnesses for their presentations today which were really moving. I come from an arts background. My discipline is painting, dance, contemporary arts and working in the Garage Theatre in the performing arts area. I am struck by what Ms Lynch did not say. She was alluding to personal experience or experience within the comedian performance genre. My own experience has been broadly positive and I wonder is that because of the disciplines I have been involved in. Has any analysis been done on the disciplines most affected by harassment, sexual assault and so on? I am sure the disciplines themselves and the types of settings have an impact. Would anyone like to comment on that? Is there something that they did not get the chance to say that they would like to say here today while they have the ears of the Oireachtas committee?

Ms Ciara Lynch:

Yes, I have a lot to say. There is a lot I could say. There is a lot I did not say. Personally, I am not comfortable with sharing some of the experiences I have had down through the years because it is not the place to make disclosures. Countless times I have been introduced on stage as a female comedian in a kind of warning tone to the audience, suggesting that as a woman is coming on stage, they must prepare themselves. No male comedian gets that. Straight away we are other, we are different, we are alternative and we do not fit in. We are already on the back foot. I have been groped on stage by an MC in front of an audience. There are countless things. You kind of forget because you are in this area where you just have to put up with it because you are a woman in comedy. It is really not okay. I know countless people, and I mean countless, who have had worse and genuinely illegal experiences, including rape and sexual assault. They just left comedy because of all this and because they are not supported. They just left.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

It is also the nature of comedy that you might be performing in a venue this is funded by the Arts Council, for example, but the promoter is an independent person and the MC is an independent person, so the framework is very fragmented. There is really no protection in that area. There is no channel for a complaint to be made, so you just move on to the next gig.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

You just move on, or you just avoid the next gig. If another person has told you not to do a gig - to drop out of it if a certain MC is there - you just avoid it. As I said earlier, there is a privilege with that whisper network. It became very clear to me that I was privileged to be part of the whisper network by virtue of being in the scene for as long as I was, whereas newer and less experienced comics coming up were not part of it. They have suffered now and have left. That is why we set up Comedy Safety Standards and that is why we joined with SAOI. We know we are not going to benefit from all the work we have put in, but we are doing it for other people coming up. We are doing it because it should be a safe working environment. That is what it is - a working environment. It should be safe, and it is really not.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

I will respond to the question that was asked about experiences across art forms. A table on page 37 of the report breaks down the experiences of our respondents by art form. It shows that between 66%, at the lowest, and 79%, at the highest, of respondents across all art forms have experienced an incident. Dance is the highest at 79%. The lowest at 66% is arts participation and visual arts. In terms of people witnessing incidents, the figures are similar. They go from a high of 68% in opera down to a low 48% in visual arts and in other art forms. This is experienced across all art forms. That is the result from our research.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

It sounds very depressing and it is very depressing but I should say that when we rolled out training courses with the DRCC, particularly last year, there was really good take-up by men and women in the comedy scene. There is an appetite for these courses. Like everything, they just need more funding and more supports. There is an appetite for change so it is not as depressing as it might feel.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is thanks to all the great work the witnesses have been doing. They are making sure the national conversation is happening and it is a top priority on the agenda for the Government and for us as a country.

We are obviously haemorrhaging artists because of this as well. It is probably a very hidden cause because it has not been spoken about in the past.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

Definitely.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses very much for their work and their presentations. I hope as a committee we can do something to further the campaign that they are on.

Senator Warfield wishes to come in.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious that while we are talking about the Arts Council and we are looking at funding conditions. We are perhaps missing the funding allocated by local authorities by the Department directly. Should we aim for a situation where the Arts Council sets the bar for funding applications where local authorities and Departments perhaps have been tightening up their allocations on the basis of what the council has in place?

Ms Liz Meaney:

The Arts Council has memorandum of understanding with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, where we discuss issues as they are referred to the arts. What we can commit to doing today is bringing this forward to the next management liaison group meeting with the CCMA to discuss this matter and look at that. We share common priorities around how we transparently allocate and support the arts on a joint basis. As Ms Traynor said, it is a very complex pattern. There are small venues that are supported by local authorities and there are venues that are supported by both the Arts Council and, on occasion, the Department. There is a whole range of different circumstances.

In the first instance, the Arts Council is deeply committed to leading forward strongly in ensuring that our organisations are upholding the highest standards and pushing forward as leaders. However, we need to look at the broader context and what we can do to effect change.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I have an observation. Often when these issues come up and we discuss them in here or even within wider society and, as Ms Meaney said, it is not just exclusively in the arts, it is predominantly female voices that we hear. I noticed that all of our witnesses today are female. Sometimes, I have to admit, there is fear often on the part of men about talking about some of these issues. I am glad to hear what she said in terms of some of the training and that men were coming forward within the arts sector. How can the council encourage more men to become allies but also to speak out around these issues?

Ms Jessica Traynor:

Any kind of training is wonderful and it is wonderful that people will come forward. However, training has to be mandatory for it to become normalised. When we have the entirety of society in microcosm involved in this, people will realise that this is not about threat or taking away privilege from any one group to give to another. It is simply about a reconfiguring of the way that we think about how we relate to each other within the arts sphere. As Ms Daly and Ms Bourke said, this is a wider societal issue. That training aspect is very important to make everybody feel safe and invested in the process.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I was going to ask the same question as Senator Byrne did. It struck me that in the research that it is mostly men who are the perpetrators of these assaults, etc. How can that psyche be changed through the witnesses' organisations? It seems to be that it is overbalanced. Are men willing to come forward and speak out about it as well? Perhaps that should be a starting point.

Ms Jessica Traynor:

If only I had the answer to that question. Education is hugely important in this. One of the places where we say in the report that we want training to be in place is in third level colleges ion the performing arts courses and at youth theatre level and youth choirs, youth ballets, etc, where the issue of dignity, trust and respect in the workplace is in place and is a given, irrespective of what level of training or development one is at, so that people are talking about it at a very early age and know that certain types of behaviour are not acceptable. We have spoken with some of the third level institutions about this and about introducing modules.

On the awareness campaign that we talked about with the Department, perhaps we need to be more overt in our invitations to men to be part of this conversation and to say that we know from our report that 67% of perpetrators were identified as men, but 42% were identified as women. It is about the nature of the behaviour. Women are more inclined to bully, but they are 3.5 times more susceptible to experience sexual harassment by male perpetrators. Conversations out there are very gender-balanced here but it may not be here. We could give more overt invitations rather than perhaps waiting for certain men to come to us, and, again, work this out together.

Ms Siobhán Bourke:

I reiterate that this is a societal issue because two days after we published the report we got one in the post from the Law Society of Ireland called Dignity Matters. I do not know if its representatives appeared before a joint committees, but the report is basically a carbon copy. This is cross-societal. This is not just in this Department; it is in all Departments. We as a society need to take on some of these topics. It has to happen at that level and the training and conversation has to happen at that level as well. We need to all go out from here and find others to talk to about these issues.

Ms Ciara Lynch:

Ms Daly mentioned education. there is a lot being done in third level education and so on. Up until last year I worked as a primary school teacher, and I know I am biased, but it should be in primary education that much of this is dealt with. There should be more psychology and sociology exploring these kind of issues. State-funded schools that have a religious ethos will straight-off be a difficulty with regard to proper relationship and sexuality education, RSE, gender discussions and all of that kind of stuff. That is the core issue and everything else is a reaction to what is happening.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We should start young in changing our mindset. I thank the witnesses for coming in today and sharing their experience, research, analysis and thoughts. We will certainly work as a committee to highlight that, not only with the Minister, but with the Government. As was said, this is about societal change. This is one element of it and we have a body of work to do to change everybody's thinking on this. We will certainly endeavour to do that.

I will briefly suspend the meeting to allow our secretariat to get ready for our next session, which will commence at 3 p.m.