Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendment No. 1 has been ruled out of order as it is not relevant to the technical provisions of the Bill but I will allow the members to speak on it.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have tabled four amendments and they are all on a theme. They have all been ruled out of order because they are beyond the scope of the Bill. I understood the Minister would table amendments in line with those I have tabled. It is still my position that I would rather the Minister table amendments to do what we have tried to do in the amendments I tabled. This is to commit in black and white in primary legislation to bringing forward legislation within six months of the passing of this Bill to deal with the substantive issues regarding marine casualty investigation.

I have also tabled an amendment on the publication of the Clinch report, which should have been made available to the committee. It was a recommendation of the pre-legislative scrutiny. It would inform any further review and enhancement of marine casualty investigation. It should be available. It is the same with regard to the Lacey report. It should be published and made available.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is with regard to amendments Nos. 2 and 3.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The other amendment I tabled is on a progress report on the establishment of a new marine casualty investigations unit being laid before the Dáil. We are trying to get a cast-iron guarantee from the Minister and the Department that the commitments he has made verbally would be delivered upon. We know the context of this debate. It came up during pre-legislative scrutiny. We all know this is a technical Bill to deal with a specific issue arising out of a European judgment. We all appreciate that.

Committee members now have available to us the Lacey report which was published in 2010. It made specific recommendations on how we deal with the totality of the deficiencies in marine casualty investigations. It made proposals and the publication of the heads of the Bill for a multimodal accident investigation office. We had these proposals. We know the Department had them in 2010. We know there were clear indications in the Department and other quarters that we were at risk of running into difficulties because of our emerging European obligations. Despite this we walked straight into difficulties and we are where we are with the Bill before us.

We should not have needed to be here with the Bill. Had we acted on the Lacey report and other advice, at the time and in the meantime, we should not have had to be at this point with this Bill. As a result of this and related to it there are deep concerns, which I share, that we will not get larger follow-on legislation and action to deal with the wide range of issues regarding marine casualty investigation.

The purpose of the four amendments I tabled is to get that cast iron guarantee from the Minister and the Department. My fear is that without it we will have drift in terms of the enactment of this legislation or any future legislation such that a number of years down the line we will be no further on in terms of the practical delivery of world class marine casualty investigations. That is the sum total of it. I appreciate that the amendments have been ruled out of order. I am frustrated but I understand the process. From my perspective, I would have severe reservations around supporting this legislation unless I had very a firm guarantee that it is only an important first step in a process of reform within the marine casualty investigation area. I hope that captures my position on it and that people understand it. I understand that this is technical legislation and that it is time dependent. I support that element of it. Without a commitment on the broader suite of reforms, however, it will be very difficult for me to support this legislation.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. Essentially, the legislation before the committee this afternoon allows for the continued independent functioning of the Marine Casualty Investigation Board. This committee has undertaken a lot of work in this area over recent months. It sought pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, but the Marine Casualty Investigation Board and the Department repeatedly stated that this was technical, time-sensitive legislation and there was a need to expedite matters and so, reluctantly, we agreed to allow things to move apace. We did not fully agree with it, but we recognised that the legislation needed to progress quickly. As I said, we reluctantly agreed to waive pre-legislative scrutiny, but it is important to note that that waiver had important conditionality built into it. We demanded that the Department would make publicly available the Clinch report.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By way of clarification, the committee did carry out pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We cut the process short.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but it is important to make that point.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We agreed to accelerate matters based on what the Department had advised but we also, on several occasions, insisted that the Clinch report would be made fully available to each member of the committee. One cannot blindly pursue particular legislation and ignore a document that has very important information within it to which, as of yet, I am not privy.

We demanded that the Department would make public the Clinch report, which was drafted by Captain Steve Clinch of the UK based Clinchmaritime Limited. It is important to note that this report was a Government-funded independent review of Ireland's maritime casualty investigation structures and its aim were to address the current organisational structures of the Marine Casualty Investigation Board, to set out recommendations and suggestions that we could embody in law to ensure we are fully compliant with our EU obligations and that we would have a robust and properly resourced marine casualty capacity in Ireland. The committee would like to know why this important report is not in the public domain. It is essential that we would be privy to it and that it would inform decision-making in this committee and in the wider Houses of the Oireachtas. I understand that one of the key recommendations in the report, which, as I said, I have not had sight of, is the establishment of a full-time professional unit to investigate marine casualties. The current structure in Ireland is a part-time investigation board staffed by part-time investigators. In order to properly provide for marine investigations in Ireland, surely we need to know the full content of the Clinch report and its recommendations.

Marine casualty investigation is the very poor relation of air and rail accident investigation in this country. Taking 2019 as a base year, the air accident investigation unit, which is a full-time unit, had an operational budget of €750,000 and the rail investigation unit, also a full-time unit, had an operational budget of €350,000. That same year, in which six lives were lost in Irish territorial waters, the part-time Marine Casualty Investigation Board had a paltry budget of just €27,000. I live in a coastal county where, thankfully, we have not had a major aircraft incident in recent years, although we have had some slight incidents involving aircraft crashing. We also have not, thankfully, had a rail accident of great significance. Every year there are lives lost at sea, however. We need to have a robust investigations board to investigate in that regard. That does not exist currently. The report that would identify the shortcomings has not been circulated.

Following my contribution, I have to leave this meeting in order to attend another. Before doing so, I would like to reference the Marine Hazards Limited report, which dealt with the 2016 accident off the coast of Kilkee, County Clare, in which Caitríona Lucas, a Coast Guard volunteer, lost her life. She was a fantastic woman. She gave her life trying to rescue and look after others. There are deficiencies in terms of investigation that need to be of guidance to us as we try to prepare robust legislation. I would like to pay tribute as, I am sure, would many here today, to Michael Kingston. We get briefs from Departments and from everywhere and anywhere. Michael Kingston has been hugely invested in this legislation and in guiding and informing us. I want to pay tribute to him on the record.

It is essential the Clinch report is circulated. This is not tiddlywinks. These are lives. In the context of legislation relating to safety, we need the guiding report, that is, the Clinch report, available to each and every one of us.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Prior to this meeting there was a private meeting of the committee with the Minister at which there was very open debate. At that meeting, the Minister gave an assurance that he would make a public statement today to confirm that the Clinch report would be published, that the findings and recommendations set out in that report would be implemented with in the lifetime of this Government and that substantial work will be done this year. It is very disappointing that to date the Clinch report has not been published. It is with the Department since July 2021. Work on it began last March. On foot of a recommendation of this committee, Captain Clinch was asked to compile this report. What are being cited are legal issues.

A series of different reports have recommended a fundamental reform of this area. The first report was in 1988. It was followed by the Róisín Lacey report in 2010, of which I and other members of the Oireachtas have received copies. I received mine in the past number of days. It is a frightening read in terms of what is being sought by us and people vested in this area. That report has identified the need for independence, competence and a full-time investigation unit. The Bill before us does not address any of those issues, which is really disappointing.

The committee undertook in-depth pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill last January, during which we heard expert opinion from the maritime lawyer, Mr. Michael Kingston and also from Mr. Ciaran McCarthy. There is compelling evidence that we are not up to scratch in this country in terms of this area. Why are we not implementing reports drafted in good faith by people who were employed by the State? The Clinch report is the third of these reports. I do not know what we are at. This committee would be better served if the Clinch report was published. We should hold off on this legislation and implement the recommendations of the Clinch report. If we did so, we could then move forward with a substantive Bill.

I take the Minister on good faith. He said to us at that meeting a couple of weeks ago that he would make a public statement and that he would confirm in the Houses of the Oireachtas that he is determined to publish the Clinch report and implement the recommendations. I call on him to do that today.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all three Deputies. As Deputy Carey said, I am happy to repeat what we said in private session but first it is important that we get this legislation through quickly. This whole issue is about minimising risk, learning from previous accidents in order that we save lives, but time and speed are of importance. If we are not quick then we run the risk of not having a proper investigation process that could be required with real urgency. I am keen that we get this through the Dáil and the Seanad as soon as possible. As soon as the President's signature is dry on the parchment for a final Act, we will put in place the provisions of this very technical Bill to give us full complement and strength within the existing Marine Casualty Investigation Board and in doing that, comply with European law and regulations. That is the most important thing we need to do. Also, we agreed that we will publish, subject to legal sign-off. We have to follow legal advice. As the Clinch report was commissioned on the back of the Department's initiative, it is very much in our interest that it would be published and acted on. I am happy to commit here to doing exactly that. Central to that, as Deputies Carey, O'Rourke and Cathal Crowe and others have said, is that we look at a new structure and a new system, including the full-time independent investigation unit. What I said in private session is that we expect the publication of the Clinch report at the end of quarter 1 and that is still the timeline, subject to the Office of the Attorney General and others signing off on it. What I also said was that this year, we will develop and deliver that wider legislation. My intention is to go to Cabinet in the coming weeks on the First Stage process with the broad intent, the policy approach.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would the Minister be at the point where it would be the production of the heads of Bill?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be the policy approach first and then that turns into heads of Bill. It is with every expectation for us to act fast but I first must get Cabinet approval.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would the Minister lay out the process in terms of time? You have the Clinch report. When do you expect to be in a position to publish it?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All going well at the end of quarter 1, is when we hope to publish.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When does the Minister expect that this committee will be in a position, as I expect members would like, to discuss the Clinch report with him, as Minister?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There will be no time delay on my side.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Following on from that, when will the Minister look to bring forward the substantive legislation on changes in structures and so forth? It is within the amendments, I am not casting any opinion here, it is just a process. When does the Minister anticipate he will be bringing it to Cabinet? When does he think this committee will be in a position to do the pre-legislative scrutiny on that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the next few weeks and subject to Cabinet approval. We then have to convert that into heads of Bill, which will take some time. All this is initially going to Cabinet approval within the next few weeks. I imagine the heads of Bill might take a couple of months after that but it is that sort of timeframe.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister wish to continue or will I hand it back?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope they address the main concerns. We cannot commit to things like that in legislation. I can see why the Bills Office might have said that, I can understand where they are coming from but legislation, or this particularly technical Bill, is not the place for those sort of-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I felt it was important that we have this discussion.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am happy to have had that, yes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To tease that point out, I appreciate the Minister's response. It reflects the private meeting we had. To provide the level of assurance, because there will be some scepticism from people who follow this closely, who will point to reports from 1998 and 2010 that were clear about the need for a new departure and a change in the direction of travel, as that did not happen. Whether it is a reflection on the Minister or the Department or the system or whatever it is, that progress was never made. What greater assurance can the Minister provide to those who are watching this closely that he will deliver on those commitments he has made? Is there scope for him to bring forward amendments that might, in primary legislation, provide such assurance? If it is not primary legislation, what other way, outside of his statements here today, can provide assurance to people? I implore the Minister and the Department to engage with those stakeholders right throughout this process. As Deputies Carey and Cathal Crowe have said, they have been absolutely expert witnesses and a huge resource and benefit to us as Deputies and as a committee. I raise that matter of that extra assurance with the Minister. I can see how people might refer to 1998, 2010 and a Clinch report we have not seen and say that what needs to be happening here should be absolutely black and white but it is not happening. How can we be assured that what the Minister is saying now will actually come to fruition and that in six months' time we are not told something has come from left field and disrupted everything he has laid out there?

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a fear that the Minister will not honour what he is saying here. I am not blaming him but this has happened before, in 1998 and 2010. Even the Roisin Lacey report has not been published officially. Perhaps he might give a commitment in regard to that, today. On Second Stage of this Bill, reference was made by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughten, to that particular piece of work that was asked to be done by the Department but it was never published. Here we are in 2022 and we have a commitment, and I do not doubt the Minister's commitment, but I would like if he could give us a bit more reassurance and more comfort. I buy this Clinch report being published by quarter 1, but that is underlined on legal grounds. I do not know what the issue is, legally. Maybe the Minister cannot say, but legal issues tend to go on and on. As this whole issue has not been dealt with over three or four decades, it is high time it was dealt with. I would like to get some assurance from the Minister today in that regard, and he has given it, but perhaps he could nail it down even further. I also agree with Deputy O'Rourke on engaging with the stakeholders. They have been truly magnificent in their efforts, educating the committee in this field and the deficiencies that exist there. This might be a niche area but it is an incredibly important area. We are an island nation and we need to have a fit-for-purpose marine casualty investigation unit and sadly, we do not have that. If we do not properly investigate problems we do not find out what the problem is, and that problem continues to happen, again and again. That is why we are asking for these assurances. I do not doubt the Minister's bona fides but if he could give us a bit more in regard to timelines, that would be great.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I may, I will put this in context without expressing views of my own.

The committee's deliberation on this issue has been about working with the Department and the stakeholders to make it fit for purpose, which I have no doubt is also the Minister's view. Are there benchmarks along the cycle we want to ensure are hit? The Minister has given an overview, but perhaps he might touch on engagement with stakeholders and whether he feels certain the Clinch report will be published. I ask the Minister to provide more detail on that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is in our interest that we publish the Clinch report. The Department commissioned it and wants to see it published by the end of this first quarter. In the second quarter shortly thereafter, subject to Government agreement - if Government does not agree, I will have to come back to the committee and inform it that the Government has not agreed - my intention is to bring a policy proposal to Government within the coming few weeks. Then there will be the drafting of the general scheme of the Bill, and my main intention is for that to come back to this committee for pre-legislative scrutiny and, subject to that being done in a timely manner, for us to get it legislated this year. That is on the record as to what I am looking to do. If there is any reason that is not possible, be it a Government decision or legal advice, I will come to the committee straight away. However, I expect Government approval and I am hopeful we can overcome the legal issues. If that is not delivered, by all means the committee should hold me to account on it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amendments Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, are out of order as they are not relevant to the provisions of the Bill.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for attending today's engagement with the committee.