Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 15 February 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health
General Scheme of the Public Health (Tobacco and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill 2019: Discussion (Resumed)
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Hoey. I welcome the witnesses from the Irish Vape Vendors Association, IVVA, to our meeting to continue pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the public health (tobacco and nicotine and inhaling products) Bill 2019. From the IVVA, I welcome: Mr. Alex Pescar, secretary; Mr. Declan Connolly, director; and Ms Joanne O'Connell, director.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, that witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks. It is imperative he or she complies with any such direction. I call Mr. Connolly to make his opening remarks.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I thank the committee for inviting us to today's meeting. We will outline the enormous potential that vaping has in tobacco harm reduction and how it can help reach the goal of a tobacco-free Ireland by 2025.
Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death in Ireland, with almost 6,000 smokers dying each year from smoking-related diseases. There is never a situation where it is better to smoke than it is to vape. Cancer Research UK has stated that vaping is far less harmful than smoking. There are approximately 200,000 e-cigarette users in Ireland. Most of these vapers have given up smoking completely, and 38% of those who tried to quit smoking in Ireland in 2019 used e-cigarettes during the attempt. This should be encouraged.
The IVVA represents independent retailers of vaping products in Ireland. Members of the organisation are neither owned nor under the control of big tobacco. We advocate for evidence-based policy on reduced-risk vaping products. Our members are helping Irish smokers to become smoke-free daily at no cost to the State. According to statistics from Euromonitor in 2018, some €70 million was spent on e-cigarettes in Ireland. Approximately 50% of vaping sales are from independent vape shops, 30% are online and 20% are traditional retail, thus illustrating that it is the independent vaping businesses that dominate the market. Of vapers in Ireland, 99% are either smokers or ex-smokers. Those who can be classified as "never smokers” make up less than 1% of users.
On a personal note, I am 54 years old and I was a smoker for 27 years. I first came across e-cigarettes in 2011. It was back then that I was beginning to learn that smokers smoke for the nicotine but die from the tar. I purchased my first e-cigarette in October 2011 and have not smoked since. Within a couple of weeks of quitting, my smokers cough was gone and my clothes, house and car no longer stank of stale smoke. I also had more energy and more money in my pocket. I was so impressed with the initial benefits of vaping versus smoking that I set about starting my own vaping business. The business I run is primarily online. Since inception, we have helped more than 16,000 smokers in their efforts to transition from smoking to vaping. Not every customer has been successful, but most of our customers no longer smoke. Many continue to vape and many have quit both smoking and vaping. With the new-found energy I gained from quitting smoking in 2015, I decided to take up running to try to gain some fitness. My Couch-to-5K programme took me a full six months, but I have not looked back. I now run at least twice a week, and in the past five years have run eight marathons and numerous half-marathons. I have entered three marathons for 2022. This is not to boast, but none of what I have outlined would be possible if I was still smoking.
Turning to the general scheme of the Bill, the IVVA welcomes most aspects of it. Specifically, we welcome the proposed over-18s aspect of the legislation. We also welcome the proposed new licensing scheme for retailers of vaping products, assuming that this measure will be proportionate. We believe those selling vaping products have a level of responsibility and that a fair licensing scheme will help to monitor and protect vape-related sales.
Although not included in the general scheme, we are aware there are some calls for a ban on e-liquid flavours. We will outline why this would be detrimental to public health.
The IVVA calls for an addition to the proposed Bill whereby single-use disposable e-cigarettes should be prohibited from sale. There are a number of issues that arise from this latest development in the e-cigarette market, including the following. First, these devices are ready to go, compact and relatively inexpensive and there is real possibility that unscrupulous players will try and market or push these products at youth. Second, legal and illegal product is currently making its way into the country and is being sold in many premises which previously would never have sold e-cigarettes, including hardware shops, hairdressers and so on. Third, disposable e-cigarettes are extremely difficult to recycle and lead to a lot of batteries and plastic being thrown into general waste. We will be writing to Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications separately on this aspect.
We believe that the Government should engage more with the independent industry and consumers. Our industry has been accused of trying to hook a new generation on nicotine. This could not be further from the truth. We have no interests beyond helping adult Irish smokers quit smoking and the 200,000 Irish people who now vape rather than smoke must not be forgotten in any discussion.
The Government should also provide smokers with accurate information and promote vaping as a safer alternative to smoking. The UK is leading the way in promoting vaping as a safer alternative to smoking, or at least 95% safer. As a result, in 2018, the UK reported the second lowest rate of smoking in EU at 14.7%. Additionally, it should be communicated to the smoker wishing to quit that vaping combined with behavioural support is almost twice as effective as nicotine replacement therapy, NRT. The largest randomised control trial to date, details of which were published in the New England Journal of Medicinein February 2019, found that the one-year abstinence rate was 18% in the e-cigarette group as compared with 9.9% in the nicotine replacement group. Furthermore, another large study looking at the heart health of smokers who switch to vaping, commissioned by Cancer Research UK, found that long-term smokers who switched to vaping were halfway towards achieving the vascular health of a non-smoker within a month. Researchers from the University of Dundee said they discovered a clear early benefit in switching from smoking to vaping. Many other high-quality studies are available.
Adult choice of e-liquid flavours are important and must not be restricted. E-liquid flavours are of vital importance to vapers. The IVVA is deeply concerned by the negative effect a flavour ban could have on tobacco harm reduction and consumer choice. A survey carried out by the Independent European Vape Alliance, IEVA, in 2020 found that nearly 65% of vapers vaped fruit or sweet e-liquids on a daily basis. The main argument in favour of banning flavoured e-liquids is the potential risk of making vaping products more attractive to minors with child-friendly flavourings and packaging. The association between vaping flavours and subsequent smoking initiation is not substantiated by evidence. We believe in protecting youth and that the most effective way of preventing youth consumption is by enforcing legal age control and strict advertising rules. The IVVA respectfully calls on decision and policymakers to have a closer look at the potential consequences of such a ban.
With regard to tax and excise duty, all vaping products are subject to 23% VAT, which goes to the Exchequer. Vaping products should not be subject to an additional sin tax. Smokers who switch to vaping are, in fact, doing the most important thing they can do to improve their health by quitting smoking.
Vaping provides an opportunity. About €11.8 million was spent on smoking cessation in 2017 while it was estimated in the same year that costs related to the impact of smoking totalled €1.65 billion. NRT products have a recognised failure rate of around 90%. Vaping, by contrast, represents a user driven, public health boon. No taxpayers’ money has been spent yet smokers are quitting, switching and cutting down through the use of vape products. As vaping has increased in popularity, the smoking rate has continued to decline. The prevalence of smoking has dropped from 23% in 2015 to 17% in 2019 as the popularity of vaping has increased.
Vaping is the most popular tool used by smokers to help them quit. Despite this encouraging trend, there are still 700,000 smokers in Ireland. If the Government takes a proactive approach to encouraging smokers to switch to vaping, then not only would there be a much-needed saving on the health budget, there would also be far fewer smokers.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Connolly for his presentation and for the constructive way he has set out the issues. I very much welcome his contribution. One of the issues that is being raised with us by the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society is the increase in the number of young people who are vaping. In 2015, 23% of teenagers used e-cigarettes and by 2019, it was up to 37%, and we are advised that teenagers who vape are three times more likely to end up smoking. That is where the issue of whether there should be a ban on flavours arises. For example, three countries – Estonia, Finland and Hungary - have already banned the use of any kind of flavouring in e-cigarettes. What is Mr. Connolly's response to that issue? How would he deal with reducing the number of people who are taking up e-cigarettes initially and then moving on to smoking?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I thank Deputy Burke for his question. I do not like to do this because I believe both the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society carry out tremendous work, but when they say there is an increase and that more youths are beginning to smoke, that is not borne out by the facts or the statistics. To go back to my opening statement, fewer than 1% of people who vape are never smokers and the rate of smoking has actually declined. One of the surveys that the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society referred to when they were with the committee was the European School Survey Project on Alcohol and other Drugs, ESPAD. In fact, the data from that is very encouraging when it comes to the rate of smoking among youth in Ireland. Ireland is the fifth lowest out of 35 countries in Europe with regard to smoking. That is something Ireland should be proud of rather than it being something to be alarmed about.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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These are the figures they are quoting. They are quoting figures and they are producing figures from the research that is available to them. They are saying it increased from 23% in 2015 to 37% in 2019. That is a huge increase in the number using e-cigarettes. The figures from the research also showed that people are more likely to use cigarettes if they have been vaping. I know we have made huge progress in Ireland in regard to reducing the number who are smoking but there is a concern that the figures may go back up again.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
The most recent Healthy Ireland report for 2021 showed the rate of smoking and vaping had remained static for those in the 18 to 25 age group. There are different ways of looking at the data in the ESPAD survey, to which the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society referred. There was an increase in the 30-day usage of those who smoked but when we go right down into the data, which I have with me, I have it marked on the sheet that Ireland is at No. 5. On daily usage, the figure printed here for youth in Ireland is 5.2%. While we would like to see that even lower, it compares well with countries like Bulgaria and Croatia, which are at over 20%. Another interesting thing on these figures-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Connolly saying the Irish Heart Foundation and the Irish Cancer Society are quoting inaccurate figures?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
No, I am saying there are different ways of looking at the prevalence of smoking. One figure that is used is previous 30 days' use. I and others would argue that previous 30 days' use is not a very good indicator and what we are more interested in looking at is regular usage or daily usage.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The figures have gone up. There is also the issue of flavouring and three states have already decided to ban flavouring. What is Mr. Connolly's view on that, given it looks like this is going to happen across Europe?
Some states have already decided this is the way forward. What is Mr. Connolly's view on that?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
All e-liquids, be they tobacco, fruit, mint or sweet flavoured, are flavoured liquids. I have to stress that these products should not be aimed at children. Vaping products are for adults. Flavoured e-liquids are one of the things that keep adult vapers from returning to smoking.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept they are not aimed at children but between 2012 and 2015 there were 343 incidents of e-liquid poisoning, of which 42.7% were among children. There were 343 incidents of such poisonings in a three-year period across Europe. These products are not aimed at children, but children have ended up using them. We need to be careful in how we deal with the issue. I accept what Mr. Connolly says about e-cigarettes and people moving away from cigarettes but we need to advise of the consequences.
A recent studied showed that, regarding the use of e-cigarettes, 34% were more likely to suffer from visual impairments, compared to those who had never tried vaping.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It was a study of 1,173,000 adults in the US aged between 18 and 50. The result was 34% were more likely to suffer from visual impairments, compared to those who had never tried e-cigarettes. It is an extensive study. I accept and think everyone here accepts that vaping has helped people to move away from cigarettes but we need to make sure there is adequate regulation because there are downsides to the use of e-cigarettes.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I accept that vaping is not a panacea which will on its own help achieve a tobacco-free Ireland but I believe it has an important role to play. Nothing is better than fresh air. No one will argue with that. Legislators have to be careful when legislation is being brought in which will affect vaping. They have to compare it with the much more deadly alternative product that is smoking. If vaping is over-regulated, it could stop people making the switch and cause some people who used to vape to go back smoking. We have to be careful of perverse and unintended consequences.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Everyone would agree with that but it is a case of making sure we have adequate precautions so we do not have an increased number of young people using e-cigarettes and moving on to cigarettes. That is what we need to be careful about in drafting this legislation.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are welcome. I approach this issue through the lens of public health. If I have a bias, it is that I always examine such issues as this through the lens of what is good for public health.
The Irish Cancer Society and Irish Heart Foundation were before the committee. I assume Mr. Connolly has read their materials and heard some of the debate and the questions that were put. I assume he accepts the primary functions of those organisations is to advocate for good public health.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will test a number of things in Mr. Connolly's opening statement. He said his organisation's members are helping Irish smokers become smoke-free on a daily basis. I will test that against some of the reports, submissions and data we got from the Irish Cancer Society. Did Mr. Connolly see the MRBI poll results that came from the Irish Cancer Society? Has he studied them?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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As an organisation advocating for its members, it would have been good to see that report. It is a substantial poll that looks at people's attitudes. One result was that the Irish public concur with the evidence on flavouring and advertising. Teenagers say in focus group interviews that fewer young people would use e-cigarettes if fruity, sweet, minty or dessert flavours were not available. Does Mr. Connolly accept that?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
Yes, I accept that young people and adults would be less likely to take up vaping or switch from smoking to vaping if fruity or sweet-flavoured liquids were not available. As I mentioned to Deputy Colm Burke, one needs to be conscious of the unintended consequences. If they said they would not take up e-cigarettes, it does not necessarily mean they would move on to something more virtuous. They may go straight on to smoking.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There may well be unintended consequences but the intended consequence is that we do not have more young people becoming dependent on vaping products or cigarettes. That is how I approach it as a public representative.
I move to some other evidence. The Health Research Board in October 2020 published a report. It found that adolescents who had used an e-cigarette were between three and five times more likely to start smoking than those who never used e-cigarettes. Did Mr. Connolly see that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does he agree with it?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have many reports. We can go through all of the data.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is "No", is it? Mr. Connolly does not agree with that part of it?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It also says the research shows dual use of e-cigarettes and conventional cigarettes is not less harmful than smoking conventional cigarettes alone. Does Mr. Connolly agree with that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The report highlights that this raises questions about the smoking reduction benefit of e-cigarettes. In Mr. Connolly's opening statement he stated that the IVVA help Irish smokers become smoke-free on a daily basis. I juxtapose that with the research I am reading. Though Mr. Connolly quoted other research in his opening statement, the research coming from the European Union and research boards in this State seems to suggest something different.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Unless Mr. Connolly can point it out to me, I doubt that Healthy Ireland in any of its statements said that IVVA members help Irish smokers become smoke-free on a daily basis.
I doubt that you could take that interpretation from its statements.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We will ask Healthy Ireland what its view is and we will-----
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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You can take information from a report that does not reflect the authors' overall position on an issue. It would be worthwhile to get its position.
I will move on to another report. It comes from the European Commission's Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks, SCHEER. It issued an opinion on electronic cigarettes in which it found moderate evidence that e-cigarettes are a gateway to smoking for young people. Would Mr. Connolly accept that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The committee's report is wrong in saying that there is moderate evidence.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Disturbingly, the report also states that SCHEER found consistent evidence that flavours attract young people to e-cigarettes. I believe Mr. Connolly has accepted that, has he not?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Does he agree to a certain extent or does he agree?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
Of course, flavours are attractive but there are other things that are much more attractive that will cause youth to start vaping. Flavours are one of the things but it is a lot more complex than that. For example, both adults and youth who smoke and vape generally come from poorer, working-class backgrounds. It is all to do with the peer groups they are in and all of that. Flavours are one of the things that encourage people but, when you look at all of the other factors combined, flavours are quite far down the list of things that attract people to vaping.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The report actually goes further. When it talks about flavours, it states that SCHEER found consistent evidence that flavours attract youth to e-cigarettes. It also found that: "Flavours decrease harm perceptions and increase willingness to try and initiate use of electronic cigarettes." It is quite clear and explicit.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
On initiation, forgive me for going back to the Healthy Ireland report but one figure that must be kept in mind is that fewer than 1% of people who vape never smoked. These are all people who were already smoking. If these things attract them to switch over to vaping and to move away from the harm of smoking, that is, in the main, a good thing. Obviously, we need to get the balance right. We do not want people who never smoked to start vaping.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will put two final questions to Mr. Connolly. In his opening statement, he indicated that, based on a report from Euromonitor, the spend on e-cigarettes was almost €70 million in 2018, with the Exchequer receiving 23% VAT on all sales. It may well be the case that there is revenue accruing from these products but I am not sure that is a strong selling point. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, lobbyists lobbied politicians on anti-smoking legislation and other public health measures citing the revenue that accrues from smoking. However, we introduced the smoking ban and other measures, which was the correct thing to do. I am not quite sure that is a strong selling point.
I have less than a minute left. There were two recommendations from the Irish Cancer Society, supported by the Irish Heart Foundation. They are calling for a statutory ban on the flavouring of e-cigarettes. Would Mr. Connolly support that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They also called for a statutory ban on "all e-cigarette product advertising through all communication mediums, including outdoor areas (billboards, buses), at point of sale and online". Does Mr. Connolly support that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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So, that is one area in respect of which Mr. Connolly does agree.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They also want a prohibition on the use of vending machines to sell tobacco products to be included in the Bill. The recommendation Mr. Connolly does not agree with is the one regarding flavouring. That is the point of difference.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am interested in this area. I grew up in a generation to which tobacco companies have been discovered to have deliberately and intentionally lied about the contents and ingredients of cigarettes. They have since been taken to the cleaners in many class actions. That whole space left a bad taste in people's mouths, if everyone will pardon the pun. I have just looked at the VAT figures for British American Tobacco, which has gone into vaping, electronic cigarettes and other tobacco substitutes. Its profits have been soaring in the last few years, mainly because of that move. These product's association with the tobacco industry does not sit well with me. Again, I grew up when tobacco companies were creating a seductive impression of smoking and I see some common ground here in that regard. The back of Time magazine used to have the famous Marlboro man cowboy advertisements on it. Tobacco brands provided massive amounts of sponsorship for motor racing, showjumping, snooker and other sports. While I get that the representatives are here to talk about vaping, I note that you can barely watch a movie these days in which the lead character is not smoking continuously and endlessly. There seems to be product placement involved. That is very much in the memory.
Debate on this issue is divided into two camps. Vaping acting as either a gateway in or a gateway out has been mentioned. The gateway in seriously concerns me. Mr. Connolly said that less than 1% of those vaping are new to smoking but that speaks to the seductive piece I mentioned. I see vaping paraphernalia for sale in my local shop. It is right behind the cash register and the shopkeeper is selling it. That is not an issue for the representatives' association but regulation is needed. I see the way it is packaged. It is very seductively packaged, like an iPhone. The products are lovely to hold. They are pretty items, almost like playthings. All of that packaging reminds me of the way in which cigarettes were marketed over the years. That is a problem, as is where they are placed. I have real problems with that seductive nature and appealing marketing influencing anybody under 18 with regard to vaping acting a gateway in. I have a real issue with that.
I have some sympathy for the argument that it can act as a gateway out but more compelling evidence must be provided. I am looking at a information from Johns Hopkins University, and vaping definitely seems to be less harmful than smoking. I am sure that thousands of smokers are still alive because they switched to vaping, which had a less negative impact on their bodies and various organs. However, we do not know some of the ingredients. There are approximately 7,000 chemicals in a cigarette. We do not know all of the ingredients in vaping fluids. That is what Johns Hopkins University is saying.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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So Ms O'Connell says.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have some sympathy for the existing smoker who is vainly trying to quit using different methods. That includes some prescribed products, some of which have been withdrawn from the market, which is kind of horrifying in its own way. I am aware of that.
Cases of lung injuries and associated deaths in the US are predominantly associated with people who modify their vaping devices or use black market modified e-liquids. I was not aware until recently that the market has introduced pods.
They are tamper-proof. That is a way we could go, if people were to decide it. In other words, you buy your pod, you insert it and that is it. You do not get to mess around with the strength or to add other stuff.
I will summarise and I will then let our guests back in. I am open-minded about the existing addicted smoker who finds vaping to be a gateway out. If we were to start from scratch with everything, would we legalise drink or tobacco? I think not. I ask the association representatives to come back to me on that. What do they think they need to do? I understand the flavouring point when it comes to adults. If someone is switching from smoking to vaping, he or she probably wants something that tastes a little nicer than nicotine.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. However, I have a serious issue. It is, I suppose, up to us in government. Smoking is just a fact. We would love to ban it tomorrow and hope people would not do it, but they would find ways. That said, the seductive appeal, the packaging, the marketing and the flavours for young people are serious issues and the association needs to take this on board.
Ms Joanne O'Connell:
It 100% is a serious issue. On the gateway in, I agree with most of the Deputy's points. A big issue with the youth who are getting e-cigarettes is they are not getting them from the majority of bricks-and- mortar shops that just deal in e-cigarettes. They are getting them from electronics shops or convenience stores. A good way to definitely reduce the number of youths is to really focus the licensing on where e-cigarettes are being sold. If they are being sold by a bricks-and-mortar independent retailer, there is a much better barrier in place to stop youths ever even seeing them. Speaking personally, we do not let under-18s come in the door at all. As soon as they walk in the door we ask for identification. If they do not have it they get asked to leave, so they are not browsing the products and seeing what is there. I agree that some packaging is probably overly colourful. I would not say it is targeted towards kids because adults are attracted to these things too. Adults are attracted to colours and flavourings. We find many of our customers will start on a tobacco flavour but once they start vaping, they really want to be away from the flavour of tobacco completely. They still want the familiar hand to mouth but they do not want to be reminded of smoking.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I get that.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, the clock is running down. Does the association have statistics in respect of those who, say, convert from smoking to vaping and then quit?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is kind of the missing piece of the association's argument.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is anecdotal.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The neurology of this is that smoking is a habit-----
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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------and that habit forms cells in the brain. When you quit, even though people would like to think those cells die off, they do not. They are just replaced by brain cells caused by the new behaviour of quitting. The old cells, which are the addictive cells, are just lurking there.
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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They have not gone away; they are waiting for the opportunity. That could be kicked off again by vaping. That is a key piece we need to delve into. If it could be demonstrated that there is a link for established smokers between converting and quitting, it would be a very positive thing. We also need to know what is in them. We need a little more detail about-----
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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What would the association think of an age rise in the prohibition of them?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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What would the association think of an increase in the age limit?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Why?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Why is that?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Why?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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What is it?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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But what is it?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Why does Ms O'Connell not want someone up to the age of 21 vaping?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms O'Connell see a problem with a young person taking up vaping?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the problem Ms O'Connell sees then?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Why is it always better?
John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I suppose the answer is that you have someone becoming reliant on nicotine. Deputy Hourigan is next.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Good morning everybody. We will probably return to the issue relating to flavour and advertising. Mr. Connolly very helpfully included his own experience. Does he currently vape?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I was looking around online at what is available. Would Mr. Connolly consider himself an average user of vaping?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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How much would he use a day?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Two 10 ml bottles a week, Okay.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Yes. I was on Mr. Connolly's website, ezSmoke.ie. I was looking to see what items were available and came across his vampire vape flavours. I do not know if anybody has seen those flavours but they come in an incredibly cute little bottle with a cartoon vampire on it. It is a very non-threatening vampire and the flavours include things like pear drops and strawberry milkshake. I will be perfectly honest, I thought it was a lollipop. I have a four-year-old, a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old. It is the kind of thing that is at the till, which we are also trying to control as well because it is not great to have so much sugar. Those cute little vampire cartoons appear on children's lollipops. Does Mr. Connolly thinks that is not marketing to children?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
That kind of packaging and labelling should be much more responsible than what it is. Now, I do sell those. I sell them because they are popular e-liquids. They taste very nice. I have previously been on to a distributor who brings those in asking is there any chance the packaging could be changed. I agree that packaging could be much more responsible than it is.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Deputy Hourigan to be careful about identifying different products. She might describe them rather than mentioning them by name.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is fair enough. There is a broad range of products and, in this case, I was trying to give the example of a particular cartoon character being used in this way. I take the point.
One of the issues that has come to the committee's attention is that there was a decline in teenage smoking for the past few years. The latest research shows that smoking has started to increase again, however. Does Mr. Connolly think that has any link to the prevalence of vaping?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
No, I do not. Two studies came out this year. The ESPAD study was a schools survey in 35 countries throughout Europe. For the 30 day usage we spoke about earlier, Ireland did show an increase. I will admit that is worrying. When we go down into the numbers, however, we see the daily use figure in the last year had reduced from 6% to 5.3%. Again we are No. 5 out of 35 countries. In other words, we are the fifth lowest for youth smoking in Europe.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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One of the things this conversation suffers from is the differentiation between being addicted to tobacco and nicotine and being addicted to nicotine on its own. Those who are vaping are still addicted to nicotine, or is it fair to say that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Nicotine is highly addictive. People crave it. They have withdrawal symptoms if they do not receive it, and it raises blood pressure, spikes adrenaline and increases the heart rate. I am reading this from the Johns Hopkins University medical website. Is that all true?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Mr. Connolly himself, as a vaper, is addicted to nicotine.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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For average users, as Mr. Connolly would describe it, that is 10 ml twice a week. On the websites I look at, it is in the region of €4.50 or €5 for each 10 ml, which is €10 per week. One of the statements Mr. Connolly made earlier is that those who are addicted to cigarettes might be so for many reasons, including the fact they might be from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. However, Mr. Connolly's product is going to cost them €10 per week. Is that fair to say?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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A study was published this month by the British Medical Journalwhich suggested that while the industry is claiming electronic cigarettes can help smokers to quit tobacco smoking for good, e-cigarettes are, in fact, linked to fewer successful quitters than other smoking cessation aids, such as NRT.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does Mr. Connolly accept that the British Medical Journal is a reputable source?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I take the point but when we have asked for data today, we got the suggestion that anecdotal evidence is the same as evidence from the British Medical Journal, and it is not.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
No. Let me accept that this was a published article in the journal. In fact, we were having this conversation ourselves before we came in this morning. I would be the first to put my hand up and say there are so many studies on vaping. Depending what way people are leaning, they will say: “I like the evidence in that study and I do not like the evidence in that one.”
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is Mr. Connolly saying that he is cherry-picking the data?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The HSE does not recommend e-cigarettes as a cessation device for smoking.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has the IVVA made representations to the HSE about that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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When was the last time it did that?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That would be 2018.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The research from King's College, London and the University of Waterloo in Canada found that children are more likely to find a range of popular vaping brands appealing if the packaging used incorporates bright colours as opposed to being plain. I am watching my speaking time tick down. In the time remaining, I want to try to understand how we got to the flavours issue altogether. On the one hand, we are talking about the cessation of smoking and trying to control people's smoking of tobacco, which is a very valid thing to explore. On the other, I walked past somebody recently who was vaping and there was a cloud of blueberry water vapour all around them. That bears no resemblance whatsoever to any experience of a long-term smoker who would have been smoking. I wonder how flavours have become such a large part of the market and how are we justifying it, not generally in terms of whether it is nice and I am not really interested in whether it is nice, but in terms of it as a cessation device. How have we come to the place where flavours are so important to the sector?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
It can be a little complex. In the main, most smokers who make a decision to try vaping as a method of quitting smoking will try a tobacco flavour. They will try to replicate that because one part of them wants to give up and another does not want to give up, and they do not want to lose the habit because they have been doing this for five, ten, 15, 20 or 30 years. Therefore, they will try to find a flavour that mimics the brand they smoke. No e-liquid-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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No cigarettes are blueberry or strawberry milkshake flavoured.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
The Deputy might let me continue. An awful lot of smokers will start on a tobacco flavoured e-liquid. Although it is different for each individual customer, some customers will stay on tobacco flavours but more of them, after a week, two weeks or a month, will say they do not like that taste anymore because they are getting their sense of taste back, and they are then looking for something-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I take that point but that is not a push to blueberry flavoured smoke.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What if it tasted of nothing?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We have established from Ms O'Connell that we would prefer if people were not using anything. I presume Mr. Connolly would prefer not to be addicted to nicotine. Is that fair to say?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am out of time. To call it a cessation device implies it is a temporary measure and that if, therefore, people start with tobacco flavour, move to flavourless and then take up blueberry or strawberry milkshake, what Mr. Connolly is suggesting is keeping people vaping. Surely vaping should be a staging post to not taking anything at all.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
For some people, it is. Our big thing when it comes to vaping is the harm reduction that it provides. I would prefer if it did not come in child-friendly-looking packaging, but if someone is vaping blueberry and that is keeping them away from smoking 20 or 40 cigarettes a day, that can only be a good thing for that smoker.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The data does not support that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry for arriving late. I misread the notice. I am glad to have an opportunity to discuss the subject. As a reformed smoker who smoked for almost 30 years, I have first-hand knowledge of what it is all about. I enjoyed smoking. I relished it. If travelling on a long journey, it was great to be able to have a smoke or two over 200 miles or 300 miles, whatever the case may be. When I stopped, I did so by going cold turkey. I am now interested in what constitutes an inducement to return to smoking. I have no wish to return to smoking. I feel I switched off from all the smells that go with it in the car or the house, or in the rooms of the house where I had to go when I was banned from smoking elsewhere.
For me, the issue is this.
Is vaping better than smoking and, if so, by how much? Is it stopping people from smoking and will it continue to do so? Is it a gateway itself? We need hard evidence on that because if it is a means of encouraging people back into the habit of smoking, we have a problem. If it is a way to encourage children and young teenagers to smoke, that is a problem. I have a problem with the flavours. I have been associated with anti-drug task forces and so on over a number of years. One of the things the illegal drug industry does is encourage young children to take up drugs by selling them drug-laced sweets. That is a serious problem.
We need hard evidence. I would like evidence as to whether there has been an increase in the numbers smoking over the last two years. As a result of the lockdowns, the last two years would be a particularly interesting period to have information on. Have there been increases in the numbers smoking tobacco or vaping? Has there been any increase in the numbers moving from vaping to smoking tobacco and vice versa? Do we have that information or can we get it? If not, why? It is vital that we get hold of that information. Is it possible to say whether there has been an increase in smoking home-rolled cigarettes? From casual observation, I believe there might have been. Have all of the alternatives to smoking that are available been tested? Can we have a public health statement in respect of each or any of them? Can we be certain that they will not encourage a return to smoking among people of that disposition, such as those who have given up? Generally speaking, people who have given up smoking do not wish to go back to it. They do not feel compelled to go back to it but the ones who have not yet tried it might be encouraged to do so by a halfway house in the interim period before progressing to something else. Will the witnesses give me their observations on those points?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I do not know quite where to start. Deputy Durkan asked many different questions while he was speaking. Regarding one of the issues he addressed, he was wondering whether there had been an increase in smoking and a decrease in vaping or vice versa or what the situation had been over the past couple of years. I like to refer back to the Healthy Ireland report because it is based on Government-produced data. The 2021 Healthy Ireland report was a little bit curtailed because of the pandemic but what did come out of it was that the number smoking rose by a percentage point from 17% to 18% in 2021. That is concerning. During that same period, the number vaping decreased by a percentage point. As to whether those who stopped vaping started smoking, it can be difficult to tell whether any correlation implies causation in one year but the stress of the pandemic certainly had an impact. People working from home smoke more. Due to the stress of the pandemic, many people were also very concerned about their smoking and tried to give up. They also tried to give up vaping because there were concerns around it. We all wanted to breathe in as much clean air as possible and not have anything interfering with our lungs. In the next year or two, this data will be a lot more solid. It will be interesting to see the data for this year and next year.
As I have said, the number vaping has remained static or dropped over recent years. Before that, it had been increasing. The figures from the UK are similar. They show that the level of people vaping has plateaued there as well.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How refined are the figures regarding the increase in tobacco smoking? I know Mr. Connolly has made reference to this, but has the increase come from people who had been vaping or from people starting to smoke?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I do not particularly like giving anecdotal data but when the pandemic began and all non-essential businesses were closed, high-street vape shops also had to close. We do not have hard and fast figures but we know that a good percentage of people who were vaping could not get their vape products from their normal vape shop. They may not have liked what was available in the high-street store, supermarket or petrol station. Anecdotally, we all know many people who started smoking again when the pandemic started. As an association, we requested to be included as an essential business. That did not happen. It did happen in other countries, which is interesting to see. Vape shops were allowed to remain open and were considered essential businesses in other countries because those countries think that vaping has a significant role to play in keeping people away from smoking.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why do they think that?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the age profile of people who started smoking tobacco or who started vaping in the last two and a half years?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I do not have data as to the age of people who started smoking in the last few years. I have not seen that data published. I do have the latest smoking data from the Healthy Ireland report that was published in 2021. It contains some interesting figures. The rate of smoking among 15- to 24-year-olds remained the same, at 15%, between 2019 and 2021. It would be nice to see how-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What about vaping?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who started?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Are any data available regarding flavoured vapes?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do they use flavoured liquids from the start or do they switch around?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there any evidence for them being a gateway to other drugs?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
Not that I am aware of. Back in early 2019, we first started hearing reports from the US about lung injuries and the illness subsequently known as e-cigarette or vaping product use associated lung injury. I remember the first day a news headline on RTÉ indicated that someone had died from vaping. I was asking "What is this?" All of a sudden, I think they had hundreds of people, it said, who had died from vaping. When you read more into it, it was not vaping per sethat caused these illnesses and deaths. This is where I refer back to the Deputy's question. People were putting illicit substances into their devices and vaping them. As I said, here in Ireland the-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who was putting in the illicit substances? Was it the manufacturers or the smokers?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I have to say that this was very much a phenomenon that occurred in the US and Canada. It is virtually unheard of here or in the rest of Europe. That is not to say these things cannot be done but, as far as I am aware - and I am reading reports every day - and as far as I can tell, it is not really an issue here. Unfortunately, like so many things, where there is a will there is a way. All the e-liquids sold in Ireland and in the EU, especially anything that contains nicotine, are subject to regulations on sale that are quite strict. All the ingredients must be listed. There are listed ingredients that cannot be used and they must all be tested, as Ms O'Connell said earlier, for toxicology, emissions tests, etc.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is there evidence available on the cover of------
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy needs to conclude.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Is there evidence on the cover in the form of a health warning or something similar?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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May I have one final question?
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Go ahead.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In cases where nicotine is not involved and is just a flavour, what is the medical evidence for the possibility of a habit forming?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
Again, this is anecdotal. Bear in mind, however, that we have had many different customers over the years so anecdotes can tell a lot. Many people will reduce their nicotine levels down to almost zero. We are talking 0.1% or 0.05%. However, the habit is still there. They still vape. Nicotine is obviously an addictive substance. None of us will deny that but it is more than just nicotine that keeps people going to their vape. Thankfully, non-smokers are not really interested in vaping products. The longer it can stay like that, the better. That is why we, as an association, and going back to what Deputy Hourigan said, would like to work with legislators to see better and possibly more stringent guidelines and regulation on the labelling and packaging of some of these products so they are not deemed to be attractive to youth.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Shortall is next.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentation. I speak as someone who smoked for many years, though, thankfully, I have been off them for the past ten years. I appreciate how difficult it is to kick the habit. There is no doubt about that. It is certainly the case that some people benefit from vaping and that it assists their kicking of the habit. I ask our guests why so many of the products are geared towards a younger audience, as far the packaging and flavourings are concerned. What is the idea of that if they are not designed to attract children and young people?
Ms Joanne O'Connell:
I do not agree that the products, at least the majority of them, are geared towards younger people. The majority of products on the market involve quite responsible packaging. There are some that definitely need to be worked on, and we are all for working towards better regulations in this. On the flavouring being attractive to youths, I do not agree that it is purposeful.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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What does Ms O'Connell mean by that?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay, but Ms O'Connell's Vapourpal online retail outlet sells products with cartoon-like packaging, for example, Vampire Vape e-liquid. Surely that does not appeal to adults. Why would you sell such products?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I do not know any adults who would be attracted to cartoon-like packaging like that.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Does Ms O'Connell agree the packaging is cartoon-like?
Ms Joanne O'Connell:
I agree it is cartoon-like packaging. We have been on to the manufacturer regarding that but our customers request it. We have 60- and 70-year-old men and women who use that particular flavour. As I said, we do not and never have sold to anybody under the age of 18 years since we opened our doors.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Maybe Ms O'Connell will outline how she ensures that she is not selling to people under 18 years of age.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. How does that work on Ms O'Connell's online outlet?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but how does she establish they are not aged under 18 years?
Ms Joanne O'Connell:
We have the warning as you go into our website asking whether the customer is over 18. Also, if we have any suspicions most of our customers are long-term ones and our web business is not very large. Most of our customers on the web are customers from our stores who live outside the town. If we have-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Is it not the case Ms O'Connell has no way of establishing a person's age and whether they are under or over age on her online outlet?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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How would Ms O'Connell have an inkling if a person is buying online?
Ms Joanne O'Connell:
As I said, we know the large majority of our customers. These are customers from our shop who do not live near the town so sometimes they order online. Our online business is not large. We do not have an awful lot of orders. We do not focus on our online business. Our main business if our stores.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay.
I would like to move on.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
I wish to come in there. My business is primarily online. I still do not have a foolproof age verification system on the website. I put my hand up and accept that. There are other things you can do in the meantime to discourage youths from buying online. One of the first things we do is stamp each of the packages with the ezSmoke logo. This means that if a person who is under the age of 18 has ordered something online, it comes in through the letterbox and mam or dad will be there to see it and ask what was ordered from ezSmoke.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Connolly is saying that he expects parents to police this and that he does not have any system of ensuring that its customers are over 18.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Connolly is accepting that he does not have the proper age verification.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Mr Connolly just does not know.
Mr. Declan Connolly:
-----but there are cues. If a customer says “discreet packaging only” then you will see something and will know. On many occasions we have asked customers to send in a copy of their passport or driving licence to verify their age, and we will continue to do so. It is not in our interests-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Connolly has confirmed that he does not have any age verification system and he is talking about possibly having one in the coming years. Why would Mr Connolly be selling flavours like Dr. Frost Lemonade Fizz?
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Can Deputy Shortall leave the names of these products out, please?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Excuse me?
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy may describe them or whatever else but I ask her not to describe these products specifically by name. She has also mentioned other products. Can we just talk generally about some of the products?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I do not understand what the problem is.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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At the start of every meeting, we state that people are not supposed to identify an individual or an entity. I presume this is an entity or a product.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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It is one flavour of a product that Mr. Connolly sells. I am simply asking how he can maintain that that name is not intended to attract underage purchasers if it is described as Dr. Frost Lemonade Fizz?
Mr. Declan Connolly:
This is a bit like when I was addressing Deputy Hourigan earlier. This is another one of those products that I sell because there is a demand for it. I accept that the packaging on the product should be better and more responsible. This is where we would like to sit down with the legislators and the decision makers, be it the HSE, the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland or whomever. Bear in mind that very few of these products are made in Ireland. If we had a way of going back to the manufacturers to say that we are in trouble and cannot sell these products here when they are packaged in this way, then we might get places. The majority of products are-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I want to put a question now to Mr. Pescar. Why does his outlet sell e-cigarettes which have flavours like Apple Berry Crumble, Purple Slush, Rainbow Blast or Strawberry Sensation? Surely there is not a demand from adults for those flavours, which sound very much as if they are designed to appeal to children. Some of these products have up to 18 mg of nicotine in their content. Why is he selling these products? Surely, he will accept that these names have a role in attracting children under the age of 18?
Mr. Alex Pescar:
In this industry, there are more and more players and manufacturers that are starting to grow, even globally. A business in the industry has two marketing choices. One of the choices is to do one’s own brand. The second is to go with the general marketing that is provided by the manufacturers. The latter decide on the names. At present, the market has both of these and there is a very big demand for some kinds of liquids which are probably not named well but there is a big demand for them. I know that we have two categories of people who are using vaping products. Those under 18 years of age are the ones we need to care about most. We have been talking here already for a couple of hours about how to prove that we do not sell products to people who are under 18 years of age on the website.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I apologise to Mr. Pescar-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Just a moment. I have very limited time and I asked Mr. Pescar a question. Does he not expect that the flavours I have listed out would be particularly attractive to young children? Does he accept that this is the case?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Does he accept that? Can he answer the question? To repeat, does he accept that those flavours that I have listed out are particularly attractive to children under the age of 18 in particular?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Does he accept that they are particularly attractive to under 18s?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Pescar is not going to answer that question for me so I will ask another. What sort of system does Mr. Pescar have for age verification?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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On Mr. Pescar’s-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Sorry, but I asked Mr. Pescar about his tools for age verification? It is a straight question.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I apologise to Mr. Pescar but I am asking him a question-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I would appreciate it if Mr. Pescar would answer my questions, please. Does he have any system to verify age for people coming on to his website?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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How does Mr Pescar’s website verify age, please?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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It is self-verification, then.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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That is unlikely to safeguard under 18s.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. If Mr. Pescar has suspicions - and I am unsure as to how he would have suspicions with online buyers - what would he do to verify a person’s age?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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How often would that have been done last year, for example?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Pescar and the Chairman.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, we have run out of time. One of the questions I was going to ask was is it a simple question of ticking a box when one is buying online? We did not really get into that this morning. I suppose many people would have worries that this area is wide open.
If our guests have any proposals on how we can tighten that up, they might share them. They have outlined that they favour restrictions on underage sale. They also favour restrictions on the packaging and so on. If at some stage they want to expand on those positions for our report, we would appreciate it. Unfortunately, we only had an hour and a half for the meeting and we have run out of time. If there is something specific that our guests feel they would have liked to expand on had there been more time available or if they feel they could have expanded on their answers to questions, I ask them to please write to the committee and we will include any such submission as a part of our report on this issue.
I appreciate our guests coming in. It was a helpful meeting and we have a greater understanding of where our guests are coming from on the products they sell in their stores. I thank them for taking the time. I appreciate the honesty of their answers.