Mr. Ger Deering:

May I make a clarification? The question I was asked was about the quality of services and whether variance in this quality and poor services were down to culture. I made the point that, with regard to the delivery of services, I did not believe the issue was entirely cultural because I believe that leadership is also an issue. I said that the quality of service delivery varies. I took a different approach with regard to protected disclosures. I direct the committee to page 6 of my presentation where I said that the changes that are happening "will be an important opportunity to promote a culture, in the Country, of speaking up when wrongdoing is detected and provide support and assurance to those who call out wrongdoing." In answer to a question, I said that we unfortunately have a culture in this country of thinking that it is wrong to call out wrongdoing. I believe this has to do with our history. I made the point that it is actually right to call out wrongdoing. The organisation I am running before moving to this job was one of the first to introduce an external confidential system and service for people who wanted to call out or identify wrongdoing in the organisation. We will not get where we want to be until people are able to call out wrongdoing and to be seen as doing something positive when they do so.

I spent considerable time in various different organisations in the public service and I agree that there is and has been a problem but I do not subscribe to the idea that it is endemic and everywhere. There are really good people across the public service. Things have been done wrong and we need to deal with that. We certainly need to nurture people who are willing to call that out as wrong. I welcome the fact that the Office of the Ombudsman and Information Commissioner has been given a role in respect of protected disclosures. As the Chairman will probably know, I have a background in employment rights. It is absolutely correct for employees who point out wrongdoing to be protected. Lest I give the impression that I was saying that this is not an issue, it is. The Chairman has mentioned high-profile cases in which it has been an issue. It is wrong for anyone to be in any way disadvantaged for doing the right thing and pointing out wrongdoing. We should actually thank these people because they solve a lot of problems. If we listen to them, engage and hear what they are saying at an early stage, it can be of great benefit to an organisation in avoiding serious detriment arising from wrongdoing.