Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I welcome members and viewers who may watching our proceedings on Oireachtas TV to the meeting. The Dáil has ordered that a Supplementary Estimate for Public Services in respect of Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage - for a sum not exceeding €198,915,000 be referred to this committee for consideration.

The purpose of this morning's meeting is to consider that Supplementary Estimate. On behalf of the select committee I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. Briefing documents provided by the Department were circulated in advance of the meeting.

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The format of today's meeting is that the Minister will give an overview of the Supplementary Estimate and I will then open the floor the questions from members of the committee. I invite the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make his opening statement.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I am joined this morning by the following officials from my Department: Marguerite Ryan, finance officer; Lorraine O’Donoghue, local government finance; David Kelly; and Mary Hurley.

In late April, I met the committee to discuss the 2021 Estimate for my Department at an overall level. I thank members for the engagement at that stage and also for facilitating this meeting at relatively short notice. I will keep my remarks brief. Obviously, I will be happy to take any questions members may have.

The subject matter we are discussing here is specifically the €198.9 million additional funding to be added to the overall provision for my Department. The Estimate, which I set before the committee in October, detailed my Department’s budget for 2020. This totalled €5.118 billion gross for the year with a further €214 million of deferred surrender. The Supplementary Estimate before the committee today includes the following changes: the Local Government Fund - an additional €197.3 million in current spend; on heritage - an additional €1.615 million, comprised of €1.473 million current spend and €142,000 capital spend. The total provision of €198.9 million will bring the gross expenditure ceiling for my Department to €5.531 billion and will be comprised of €2.555 billion in current spending and €2.976 billion on the capital side, excluding a further €91.5 million self-funding by local authorities under local property tax for housing.

I will start with the heritage element of this Supplementary Estimate. These are not additional costs to the Exchequer. They are the final elements of the transfer of functions and bring these existing provisions into Vote 34. They mainly relate to pay - €880,275 which deals with salaries and PSRI; and for administration - €735,000 for office equipment. This effectively follows the restructuring of the Department following the Taoiseach’s decision in 2020. It is a technical issue and arose from the transfer of certain heritage functions into my Department.

The local government element of this Supplementary Estimate is exclusively focused on issues relating to Covid-19. The amount to be provided under this Supplementary Estimate is €197.3 million and, when taken in conjunction with other measures taken by the Department, will bring the total Exchequer support to the local government sector for pandemic-related expenditure to an unprecedented €558.9 million. I have consistently said at committee meetings and in the Dáil and Seanad that we are firm believers in and supporters of local government. I take the opportunity to thank all workers in the local government sector for the incredible work they have done throughout the pandemic. They have led from the front and have been the tip of the spear in the Government's response in every community throughout the country. It was incumbent on me and my Department to support them through this Supplementary Estimate to ensure that with the additional works they had and the loss of income they have experienced through rates abatement, which I will turn to shortly, they were fully supported by way of 100% provision. That is being done in an unprecedented way.

This includes a provision for the commercial rates waiver scheme that applied from January to September. We now have a more targeted waiver scheme, focused on the hospitality sector and those still affected by certain Covid-related restrictions.

It also includes provision for the allocation of additional funds to local authorities to help limit the financial impact of the pandemic. I will take the example of Deputy Gould's city of Cork which he understandably loves so much. That city has undergone a very successful pedestrianisation programme and many those streets continue to be for pedestrians only. There has been a loss of parking charges as has happened in many local authorities. We have plugged that gap. I met the chief executive in Cork who was able to define exactly what the local authority lost due to this. Should the committee pass this Supplementary Estimate today, it will leave me in a position to allocate additional funds to those local authorities to support them in the changes they have made and in the work they have done.

In total, €497 million will be provided to fund the 2021 waiver scheme. There are two parts to this waiver. The main part covered the first nine months of the year. While originally expected to cost €480 million between quarter 1 and quarter 3, it is now €435 million. The scheme applied automatically to various types of businesses. As members know which businesses are covered, I will not go into that detail. The second part of the 2021 waiver is more targeted and we estimate it will cost €62.3 million. It is for those businesses in the hospitality sector along with gyms etc. which have been affected by the remaining restrictions.

I used the example of Cork city where local authorities lost income as well as the loss of funding from commercial rates. The total package of this funding is €61.6 million across those local authorities. Some of the changes are for the better. I encourage local authorities to retain as best as possible those areas they have given back to the public through pedestrianisation, allowing people to use streets that had been choked with cars for decades. What they have done has been very progressive. We will continue to support local government in those moves, giving back the public realms and streets to people.

Funding will be allocated in an equitable way. The proposed approach is to cover income losses of about €51 million as quantified by the local government sector and to allocate the remaining €10 million to help with the costs of Covid-related expenses that arose. The nature of these costs varies across the sector. They include the loss of parking charges along with the cost of personal protective equipment, PPE, signage, crowd management, haulier testing and additional staffing. There was also significant expenditure on ICT etc. to cover remote working. I am confident that this funding will provide sufficient support to local authorities. The support has been very well received by local authorities throughout the country.

I will now run through some of the measures my Department has taken. The substantive Supplementary Estimate I have outlined will result in an increase of €198.915 million. This will be complemented by the application of €38.4 million from savings arising from the local government rates waiver; an allocation of €13.2 from the Local Government Fund Reserve and €310 million from savings and underspend across the Vote primarily due to the significant impact of Covid-19 on construction during 2021.

As members will be aware construction and, consequently, expenditure have been significantly impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic. On 6 January 2021, the Government announced that additional public health restrictions would apply under level 5 of the plan for living with Covid-19. That shut down the sector and restrictions continued until 12 April 2021. Obviously, the lag-time in building capacity back up and supply chain issues have had an impact.

My Department continues to work intensively with all stakeholders to maximise delivery for 2021. However, expenditure will be lower than anticipated, particularly on programmes which are construction focused - in housing and water infrastructure.

I have applied for the maximum permissible carryover of funds into 2021 for capital programmes. I am conscious of likely additional underspends, but I have also signalled to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that I will be reducing the net income of the additional costs of the local government rates waiver and other Covid-19-related costs by transferring funds from those underspends into the local government fund. Instead of seeking additional funds from the Exchequer, we are using funds that were voted for other measures within our Department. That is the prudent, appropriate and responsible thing to do.

It is too early to quantify the exact out-turn for affected programmes. My Department continues to work closely with the Minister, Deputy McGrath, and his team in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Programmes A on housing and D on planning are most affected. That will not come as a surprise to anyone. My Department will continue to work hard with all key stakeholders and delivery partners to ensure accelerated activity on areas that have been affected.

I have kept my remarks as brief as possible. I wanted to give members an overview. I have focused on the purpose of today's meeting, which is the Supplementary Estimate for local government and that small technical piece relating to heritage on the transfer of functions. I am more than happy to take any questions. I have certainly seen 2020 and 2021 as the two years of Covid. We expect, based on projections for next year and the evidence we have, that 2022 will be a year of delivery in these streams. The projections are positive, which I am sure the members will be glad to know.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I concur with the Minister's comments on local government and the tremendous work it has done over the past 18 months during the pandemic, including the staff and members of the local authorities, for their community supports during the worst of the pandemic in 2020 and the work they have done in the allocation of road space and outdoor dining. They have significantly improved our towns and villages and there has been a tremendous work output from them.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for the explanation. There has been a significant carryover of more than €200 million into the local authority social housing investment programme. Can the Minister give an indication of how the underspend this year has impacted on the projected targets for social housing output? That would be helpful for us to understand.

It is important we support local government. There are approximately 48 outstanding staff requests from housing departments throughout the State. The Minister replied to a parliamentary question from me on this recently. Is there provision within the existing Estimates to get those staff up and working in the relevant sections of the housing departments this year? They are key for housing delivery in many local authority areas.

There is an increase in the Estimates for the housing assistance payment, HAP, of approximately €26 million, which is approximately half the increase on the previous year. However, a target is set out in the Budget Statement of 14,800 new HAP tenancies. Obviously, the Minister will not cover 14,800 new HAP tenancies from €26 million additional spending. Does the Minister expect there will be a reduction of current HAP tenancies and that is where he will make up the shortfall? He has roughly the same number of new HAP tenancies in the targets as previous Governments, but half the increase.

Given the announcement this week on the changes to the defective block scheme affecting western seaboard counties, are there any proposals to increase the budget allocation for that scheme? Will the Minister come back with a further Supplementary Estimate in parallel with the legislation next year? Notwithstanding the controversy around the sliding scale, more money will be needed next year. Can the Minister give us an update on that?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the defective block scheme, we have, as the Deputy knows, published significant changes that will increase the commitment by Government from €1.4 billion, by adding €800 million to that scheme, on which we have worked hard with residents to put together. I do not expect to and will not be coming back to the committee for any Supplementary Estimate in that regard in 2022. We have made provision for 2022. Provision is also made in the national development plan, NDP. Additional funds will be required as the scheme ratchets up. We need legislation on this. Obviously, I will be seeking the co-operation of the committee to make sure we get the legislation to underpin the defective block scheme set up on a sound legislative footing, but we need to get it through quickly. I need to publish that legislation, on which we are already working, in February. The scheme needs to be set up for Exchequer intervention such as this, which is unprecedented. We cannot keep running it on regulations, as the existing scheme was set up, under the 1979 Act.

I have flagged we were also bringing in an industry levy. That will be from the finance Bill 2022, which will take effect from 2023. It will also be paying into this fund, which I do not see dealing with just mica and defective blocks. Work is also being done on the working group on fire defects I have set up and on which the committee has been involved. This country needs to grasp the nettle of this issue and help those homeowners, too. However, I am sure we will have another session and I will not delay. We have to be forward looking to ensure these things do not happen again.

Significant exits are projected for HAP. The Deputy will know in the past two budgets, I have reduced the level of increase in HAP by 1,000 each year. I want us to reduce our dependency on HAP and I know all members do, as we increase our new housing builds. For a number of years, this tipping point has been talked about, when housing construction would overtake HAP increases. Next year, we are targeting 9,000 brand new builds in social housing. That does not include other measures that will deliver more than 12,000 homes.

We are seeing the increase in HAP reducing any significant exits, but not significant increases in the overall tenancies. They do not cancel each other out. HAP is necessary. I am acutely aware HAP, the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and other measures such as this are of significant cost to the Exchequer. In many instances, they are done out of absolute necessity, because there is no other option. This has not be called for today, but there have been calls saying this is a supplementary to the private rental sector. This is actually about supporting families in homes. We cannot just turn the tap off on it overnight and the committee, in fairness, understands that, but I want to continue to reduce our dependency on it.

The Deputy received a reply to a parliamentary question on staffing from me recently. Some 49 staffing requests are being dealt with at present. Well over 1,000 housing posts have been approved in the past number of years. The 49 staffing requests have details outstanding on which we are following up. A review is happening between my Department and local government. We would approve posts and sometimes one would go to a local authority which would say it was waiting for the Department to sanction it. When one looked behind it, that may not have been the case. That process needs to improve.

I mentioned in committee last night the legislation we were passing on moving the planning function for large residential developments back to local authorities, which we all supported. I will also be making a significant announcement in the coming days on further additional resources under housing for all for all local authorities. We are finalising that, but that will be in a matter of days. Certainly, I will be sharing the detail of that with the committee, because we need to continue to resource local government.

The carryover of €58 million was brought into the social housing capital investment, SHIP, in 2021 and this is being drawn down in the first call of expenditure in 2022.

There was an underspend because of the construction shutdown and the lag time in getting back to the capacity we needed on-site. That will lead to a significant reduction in what the projected output at the start of the year was before that wave of Covid hit. We are making up for some lost ground. I do not have the final figures for quarter three yet but when I do we will share them. We are pushing to deliver more new homes this year than we did last year. The projection into next year is positive and we have over 8,000 social houses on-site and under construction as we speak. There is a good pipeline on the social housing and cost rental sides and we are pushing forward in the affordable housing as well. As soon as I have quarter three figures and we have checked them and gone through them we will share that with the committee. I thank the Deputy for his questions.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I have four follow-up questions. First, the Minister commented on mica, the industry levy and the measures there. It is important that the Minister has announced that a national building control regulator will be brought in. It is long overdue, it is important and it is needed to supplement the work of local authorities in enforcement. I ask the Minister to give us a timeline on that. Is it intended to bring forward legislation?

Second, I refer to the Estimates and the maximum permissible carryover of funds into 2021 for capital programmes that the Minister has sought. Does that mean there is a level of carryover that is not permissible and that is not coming into next year? If so, how much is that?

Third, the Minister said it is too early to quantify the outturn for the effective capital programme. When does he think he will be able to quantify the effect it has had this year? When can we expect figures on that?

Fourth, I refer to Supplementary Estimates and Housing First tenancies, which I have raised with the Minister before. Did the Minister consider that area for additional spending? As he knows, there is an estimation that about 2,000 Housing First tenancies are needed for people who are homeless and who have additional support needs. The plan is to provide those tenancies by 2026. Has the Minister considered accelerating that delivery? That would have a substantial impact, not just on those individuals but also on the overall homelessness situation. Could a tender be done on that to get more delivery? Can the Minister consider an additional spend on that or what are his thoughts on it?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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This is important and I am glad the Deputy has raised the serious issue of homelessness and what we can do to support those people who need our help. At an acute level, particularly in Housing First, wraparound supports are needed. This month we will be announcing details of over 1,200 new tenancies, which is more than we have promised in Housing for All for long-term homeless individuals. It does this by providing a permanent home as well as providing supports for physical health, mental health and addiction issues, or all three. I will be launching that this month and we are expanding that across the country. We have new posts in place for the regional delivery of Housing First. Homelessness is an area we will continue to focus on, particularly in the provision of one-bedroom properties and conversions. While we have done a lot of work on voids this year, a lot of them are complex as the properties have been empty for significant lengths of time. They are not just what some would call re-lets but we have done deep work on voids. We will bring back more than 3,000 such units into use this year and I have asked the local authorities to focus them on the homeless sector. We are seeing an increase in homelessness in recent months and I have flagged that with the committee and with Cabinet. That will continue in the coming months and we will have to watch that. We are putting in place our national homelessness oversight committee that I will chair. It will bring the Departments together as well as the NGOs that are part of my task force. We need a real focus on delivery in this area. It will help to provide an increase in housing and social housing output next year. We must use our vacant stock in a much better way and reduce the number of vacancies we have. I will be focusing on that area and we have had support across the committee on this.

Any additional expenditure we had this year went towards continuing the winter plan for homelessness the whole way through and towards the real progress that has been made on rough sleepers. We have had a significant reduction of over 35% of rough sleepers year on year. Interestingly in the recent rough sleepers count we can see that there are still too many but only 11 people in Dublin were on the street sleeping rough compared with how it was this time last year. We are seeing a lot of people moving out of that rough sleeper category. There is more than enough emergency accommodation for everyone who needs it. I know there are other reasons people will suffer but people need to know that safe and secure emergency accommodation is available for them. If we look at October 2021 we had 94 people sleeping rough, which was down 31 from the spring and down 45 from last winter. That is a significant reduction. We had 316 new beds in place and 198 of them are permanent so that is an area I will focus on.

The national building control regulator and national standards got approval at Cabinet as part of our response to mica, defective block and other issues. We need to have this in place and it will require a separate memo to Cabinet by way of the draft general scheme. It will also require prelegislative scrutiny and I will have the committee involved in that. It is important and we have to show people where the State is making an extraordinary intervention to help homeowners, and rightly so. We have to ensure these things do not happen again. There will be a review of what has happened, undertaken by a senior counsel, and that is also in measures I brought forward on defective block and mica. I will be seeking the co-operation and input of the committee into moving forward with that legislation. It is in preparation and at an early stage. To be honest a Bill will not be published during this side of the year but it is a priority Bill and I will be seeking the Deputy’s assistance on it.

The maximum permissible carryover capital was 10%. There will be no surrender and we are reallocating our moneys into areas I have mentioned, such as supporting local government. We are working on some other things that we have not gotten full approval for yet. We are focusing a lot of that on local government and on housing areas such as voids, buy-to-lets and the likes of regenerated properties that have been stuck for a long time. I am taking them out of that category and Deputy McAuliffe has been strong on the issue of properties in Dublin that have been empty for a long time and getting them back and re-tenanted. Detailed work is needed on those properties. We are looking at a capital spend of about €3.7 billion next year. We will have more than enough. I should not say that in case the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, is listening. We will have sufficient funds to deliver an extensive housing programme and to deliver more homes at a social housing level than has ever been seen before in any given year. We will get permission for that carryover into next year but it will be used.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I want to quickly clarify one point. The Minister mentioned 1,200 Housing First tenancies. Is that 1,200 new and additional Housing First tenancies over and above the almost 700 in place now? Is the Minister talking about accelerated delivery so that we will get them between now and 2026?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have to roll out the plan, which we will do this month. It is new, they are new tenancies and it will be a little bit more than 1,200. We have exceeded our target in the first round, which was just short of 700 as the Deputy said.

The original target was 663, which increased from 693 to 697 in those supports. While I mentioned an approximate figure of 1,200, it will be more than that or brand new. I will publish the delivery timeline when we publish the implementation plan this December.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy O'Callaghan has asked many of my questions with regard to those experiencing homelessness. I know we have made significant progress. There has been a more than 30% reduction in homelessness, but as we head into winter we are starting to see the number rising again. We need to ensure we keep on top of it. The Minister is doing that, but it would be interesting to hear a little more about how we will deal with things as we go forward. Housing First is key to that.

I would like to expand on an area that has been touched on, which is the provision of social and affordable housing and the ability of local authorities to supply it. I thank the Minister for intervening in the matter of the Oscar Traynor Road site, which involved a tender process that had its roots in a previous Government's policy. We are subsidising the purchase price of more than 170 homes on that site to the tune of €100,000 per unit. This site comprises 340 local authority homes, which will clearly take people off the housing assistance payment, HAP, list, and 340 homes for those who do not qualify for social housing but are in the private market. I predict the absolute hypocrisy of people who will be first in the queue to try to get places for people in a housing development they voted against.

That being said, the delivery of those 950 units is key. The council vote was just one step. The support in Housing for All, all the housing models and the legislation all represent great work that has enabled the council to finally build mixed communities, but housing has to be delivered by the local authorities. The Department needs to put maximum pressure on local authorities to deliver but, equally, it has to provide the resources for them to do so. I do not expect the Minister to give me the details of the announcement he wishes to make on it, but we cannot throw enough resources at our local authorities to try to deliver on this.

This morning, local councillors in Ballymun are receiving an update on how housing that will be delivered on the nearly 20 sites there. A site manager has been appointed by Dublin City Council for the Finglas sites of Kildonan and Finglas West. There are also other sites in the constituency. We will need resources to deliver those homes. The Minister has provided the funding and the legislative base. The last step is making sure the local authorities deliver by putting pressure on them but, equally, by supporting them. I ask that staffing resources be provided for in the Estimates for this year and next year in order that local authorities will have no excuse. There can be no excuse for not delivering local housing. We have now done everything we need to do. It is all about delivery, as far as I am concerned. I would very much appreciate whatever the Minister can do in that area.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his question. I will also use the opportunity to commend those councillors who supported the Oscar Traynor Road development. That site has lain idle for 41 years. Many excuses were used by people as to why they would not, could not or should not support the provision of just short of 1,000 homes, when it is looked at overall. It is one of the biggest housing developments in Dublin. It has 40% social housing, 40% cost rental and 20% affordable purchase. I am also glad those councillors took the decision not to take what was seen as a short-term populist view to go back to the drawing board to find other mechanisms and other ways of doing it. We need to deliver homes. We are in the middle of a housing crisis. People want to see that delivery. I commend the councillors, Deputy McAuliffe, his colleagues and those across parties on their support for the Oscar Traynor Road development. Those who did not support it will have to answer for that. I want to see progress. We are moving things on now.

To be fair, the majority, though not all, of the committee supported the Affordable Housing Act. It is important Members know that, very significantly, the Act gives us the ability to be able to vary the affordable subvention, especially in areas where affordability is acute, such as Dublin, Cork and other regional cities. Without going into the financial details of the Oscar Traynor Road site, one thing that was asked of me by Deputy McAuliffe when he was Lord Mayor, before his election to the Dáil, by the previous Lord Mayor Hazel Chu and by the current Lord Mayor Alison Gilliland was to ensure we would have flexibility to be able to help on affordability. I am using that development as an example. I do not want to dwell on one particular site, but we have been able to do that now. That flexibility has been allowed because of the legislation we have passed and because we have cost rental in place.

In thinking about what this Government has done, with very significant input from Deputy Duffy and the Chairman around the whole cost rental piece, we already have people in cost rental tenancies and a pipeline for hundreds more next year. That is actual delivery and getting stuff done. It is not just talking about it, debating it or going back around to see what is perfect for people. We need homes for people. It has been good and positive so let us be positive about that.

Everything next year has got to be about delivery. We have now provided the tools for local authorities to deliver on affordable and social housing. We will get their housing delivery action plans, which are on their way to me. They are being concluded. I am working with my team in the Department with the intention of publishing those plans on or about 17 December when we have collated the details. We will certainly publish them by December or early January in order that it will be very clear what each local authority is responsible for delivering. To be fair, the local authorities have worked very well with us as partners. We spent a lot of time working with them on the new affordable measures. This is new. Let us remember most local authorities have not delivered an affordable house in 15 years. We have new schemes in place now. Our shared equity scheme is in place, which will deliver next year, separate to local authorities, and will help those who are renting right now or living with their folks, who feel they will never be able to own a home, to be able to get homes.

Next year will be a good year for delivery, but we need all our councillors to understand they are also responsible for delivering homes. That is why I continue to encourage councillors not to oppose Part 8 planning applications or to find reasons to oppose provision of social, affordable and cost rental housing. I ask them to find reasons to support it, not to delay things and to recognise the fact that people want and need homes. It is not just a want but a right. If we are going to do that, we all have to work together. We now have Housing for All, which has more than €20 billion in funding, our affordable housing fund in place and set up, and a social housing programme that is bigger than has ever been previously delivered multi-annually. That is what will make a big difference to our local authorities. They now have line of sight on their capital provision multi-annually. That is important because we can plan and work with them. I am very confident about how we will move on into the future. We will be working with the committee and the local government sector to ensure we deliver on our targets next year.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. I am hoping the Minister will keep things tight with his answers. As was the case last year, the Estimates come in after local authorities draw up their budgets. In Cork City Council, which the Minister referenced earlier, the loss of income and expenditure due to Covid-19 came in at approximately €4 million. This resulted in a shortfall of €1.5 million in that council's budget, which meant it had to cut services to deliver a balanced budget. Is the Minister saying the funding he has in place in the Supplementary Estimates means Cork City Council will recover the €4 million? Is the €1.5 million shortfall that resulted in cuts to services also included in the Supplementary Estimates? If it is, I welcome it. I just have those two points. I will have more questions after that.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will try to keep it concise and succinct to give the Deputy the facts. The 2022 budget for Cork City Council is up €14 million on 2022. We will ensure that, with the passing of this budget and the Supplementary Estimates, there will be no loss. We are plugging the hole for Cork city. I met Ann Doherty and Brian Geaney in Cork on a number of occasions and have used them as exemplars.

It is a superb and progressive local authority. No services are being cut, and none will be cut because of this Government. We are putting the funding in place, as we have done right the way through, with a 100% rates rebate waiver all of the way through for local authorities. On top of that, we will fill the hole left by the loss of income, which is significant enough for Cork city, with the passing of these Estimates today.

On the timing of the process and Estimates versus local authorities, there is an argument to be made for streamlining those timelines across the board. That can pose some difficulties. Local authorities explain the situation to members during budget negotiations or the budget process. I know for a fact that Cork City Council would have advised, through its mayor and councillors, that our Department had been in touch with it on a weekly basis about financial supports.

No services have been cut and no income has been lost. There is €14 million extra for Cork city for next year. When the Deputy passes the Estimate today-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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At a recent budget meeting, €1.5 million in cuts was mentioned. As the Minister knows, the problem for local authorities is that they have to deliver a balanced budget. They expect the money to come in afterwards. When they pass a budget, it must be balanced. I look forward to going back to Sinn Féin councillors in Cork City Council to tell them that there will be no cuts for the council next year and the money will be received.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to cut across the Deputy, but this is really important. I do not want people to go away with an incorrect perception of what is happening. In 2022, €14 million more has been allocated for Cork city. There will be no loss in income this year because we are plugging the gap. If councillors, through a budget, decide to cut one service or another or move money from one area to another, I do not micromanage the budget-----

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Councillors did not do that. This came from the finance department in Cork City Council. I will make sure our councillors raise the matter and that the finance department contacts the Minister's Department. If he has said everything is fine, I will trust him on that.

The derelict sites levy is not being collected. A total of €12.4 million should have been collected in levies over the years, but only €375,000 has been collected nationally. There are 13 local authorities not imposing any levies and 21 local authorities have not collected a single euro. We are talking about housing. I listened to the Minister and Deputy McAuliffe. We could deliver houses within months. We could solve the housing crisis. It would be better for the climate crisis if we retrofitted existing buildings and turned them into housing. It would deliver housing more quickly. Why are only 3% of derelict sites levies being collected?

The Minister is the 17th Minister with responsibility for housing since the derelict sites levy was introduced, but nothing has been done. There have been Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Ministers. Deputy Alan Kelly was also a Minister. There may have been a Green Party Minister. What is the Minister going to do about derelict sites?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will try to be brief, which the Deputy has asked me to be. He asked a good long question. I have no difficulty in saying that the derelict sites levy has not been collected properly. I have said that and have issued the figures on that. It does not work as it should do. There are other things we can do. We will bring forward the zoned land tax. I look forward to Sinn Féin's support for that because the party has never proposed any other measures. It has not brought forward any zoned land tax or activation measures in the 12-page alternative budget, which had no costings, it brought forward. We are doing things. This is being put together by the Department of Finance. It will help to activate land and impose penalties when sites are not used, and rightly so.

Vacant property is an issue. I am sure Deputy Gould has studied Housing for All. One of the pathways involves tackling vacancies because it is a real issue. To be fair to the Deputy, he highlights the issue on a regular basis. We need to make sure that vacant properties in our town and cities are made viable and used. That is why in Housing for All we published our plans for the Croí Cónaithe cities fund which will help with viability and tackling vacancies in new development in our cities.

We will come forward with new regulations and applications for above the shop living. We will have to make some very tough decisions about what we are going to do. Any measures taken heretofore with regard to above the shop living have, in my view, not worked as effectively as they should have. I will seek, and look forward to, the support of all members who really want to tackle this.

The Deputy referred to the LDA and using State-owned land for developing social and affordable housing. In Cork city and county we have said that any State land developed by the LDA must be 100% social and affordable. When that legislation was voted on in the Dáil, Deputy Gould voted against it.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to clarify something------

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Let the Minister finish. I will bring the Deputy back in.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The LDA is managing the St. Kevin's site. We still do not know what the affordability of the site will be.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy voted against the LDA legislation.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister tell me-----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Can we stick to the Estimates, please?

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----what the cost of an affordable house in St. Kevin's will be?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is always one to highlight the positives, which he has had every opportunity to do. In Cork city this year alone, with funding the Government has provided, 241 void units were brought back into use and have been allocated or occupied by social housing tenants. In Cork county this year alone, 186 units have been allocated. That is a significant figure. Even the Deputy would recognise that might be positive news.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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About 20 homes become available in Cork every month. The 241 voids to which the Minister referred are simply units that were returned during the year. I raised this matter when I was a councillor six or seven years ago. There is no budget in housing for returning voids that come up every month. This is something that we should consider.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There is a big difference between properties which have been let again and voids. In fairness, the Deputy always references the city council, and rightly so. Voids are part of a separate programme. When something is positive, I ask the Deputy to take a deep breath and acknowledge that fact. Progress is being made. He does not have to be negative about everything.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will give credit where credit is due. The next time the Minister is in Cork and meets Ann Doherty and Brian Geaney, could he meet me? I will walk around and show him derelict and vacant sites and voids. He can tell me whether things are positive.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy could start voting for the legislation.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Gould and the Minister. They have had a good long time.

The local government funding is extremely positive. I am intrigued. Like Deputy McAuliffe, I will not push the Minister on the additional resources for local authorities shortly to be announced under Housing for All, but it is extremely important. Deputy Gould raised the issues of dereliction and vacancy. We can do a lot more throughout our towns and villages. Housing for All puts some very positive policy measures in place to help us to do that in terms of Croí Cónaithe and the local authority CPO functions we will introduce.

Staff will be required to do that. I know the Minister is aware of that, and has travelled extensively to meet chief executives. He knows about the staff pressures in local authorities, especially in areas involving CPOs for vacant and derelict properties and the extra planning functions that will be required. He understands the importance of the planning function and the interaction with the public realm that we need to offer. As we regenerate and improve town centres, villages and city centres, and bring vacant commercial properties, including those with units over shops, into residential use, mixed use or whatever, there will have to be investment in the public realm.

We often look to a European model that involves a lot of urban and town centre living but, in many of those places, they have good, open public spaces and parks. It is important that we have the staff in place to design, create and maintain those spaces, right down to the staffing levels in local authorities for outdoor and parks maintenance. It requires a complex combination of staff working hard at local authority level to create those nice public spaces near which people want to live. I attended the Irish Planning Institute conference recently, where I heard a presentation by Fáilte Ireland. The point was made that if we plan towns and villages in which people want to live, tourists will want to visit them. We all see the evidence of that and I know the Minister is aware of it and will take the measures required to deliver on the Housing for All objectives. That plan includes the largest-ever budget of €20 billion over the next five years for the provision of social and affordable housing.

I recently raised with the Minister in the Dáil the issue of the provision of biodiversity officers at local authority level, which is crucial. We had representatives of the Heritage Council before the committee some time ago for what was a very positive session. All members are supportive of the work the council is trying to do across the country, as well as the incredibly important work of the heritage officers at local authority level. The heritage officer in my local authority in Wicklow has a tremendous work output, which is appreciated by all council members and residents who interact with the work being done. Just like we have heritage officers across our local authorities, I would really like to see the day when we have biodiversity officers throughout the State to support the good work of the planners.

My ultimate wish in terms of local authority staffing is to see county architects, who have a critical role in the planning process, in place throughout the State. Planners look at individual planning applications and we have local area plans, county development plans and action areas. A county architect can look at everything with a different set of eyes and bring all the elements together in a cohesive development approach across counties and towns. I welcome the Supplementary Estimate and invite the Minister to respond if he so wishes.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman for his remarks. As he said, he and I had a discussion in the Dáil on the role of biodiversity officers. Four or five local authorities currently have biodiversity officers, which is not nearly enough. Due to the Chairman's intervention and the work of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who has been exceptional in this area, we have provided sanction for the appointment of at least one biodiversity officer in each local authority area. We have seen throughout the pandemic that people have become far more in tune with where they live and their natural and built environment. That is why we have seen such an incredibly positive interest in our natural biodiversity and our heritage. On the heritage side, we are putting in place another 125 posts or so for heritage officers. Again, I commend the Minister of State on his enthusiastic work in this area. We work very closely together on it. Both of these areas of work are very good initiatives.

In my opening statement, I thanked local authority staff for the work they do, on which they lead from the front. I have had the pleasure of travelling to all counties in the Republic. I met with the Chairman a number of times in his home county of Wicklow and we saw the work being done there and the new initiatives taken. In Wicklow town, for example, I was blown away by the work done by the archivists in the county council on local government archives and archives of local history that would otherwise have been lost. The local authority is now the curator of that history, thanks to the work of the two exceptional archivists the Chairman and I met.

That leads to my next point, which relates to the public realm and the moneys that have been provided for the pedestrianisation and improvement of the high street area in Wicklow town. All of that funding was provided by the Government through the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, and the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF. The work being done on Wicklow Gaol is another instance of that and we could choose similar examples in every county across the country. The URDF funding, in particular, which is just short of €2 billion, is important and much of it remains to be spent. I was in Tralee during the summer, where incredible work is being done. In Balbriggan, in my own area, the RRDF work is starting, which involves converting derelict buildings, opening up spaces and giving opportunities for businesses to come in. It is a really exciting time and all of it is being driven by local government, supported by the Government, which is working with local authorities on a regular basis.

As I said, action is happening on the appointment of biodiversity and heritage officers. In addition, more posts in planning will be sanctioned, as I referenced last night, as well as additional staff in all local authorities for the delivery of Housing for All. We will make a significant announcement in this regard in the coming days, the details of which will be shared with the committee. Following the passing of the Supplementary Estimate, we will be able to provide further additional funding to local authorities.

I take this opportunity to refer to CPOs, on which we need to do better. Some local authorities do well in this regard and others must be supported to improve. As members will be aware, under Housing for All, we will be getting the Housing Agency involved in another targeted round of CPOs in respect of derelict properties to put them back onto the market. We will also issue CPOs for other properties to bring them into the social housing supply. When we launch the Croí Cónaithe scheme, we will be able to provide grant assistance for people who want to buy a home that has been vacant for a certain period. That will help owner-occupiers to make such properties into homes. There are many good things happening in that delivery space. I think I have covered most of the points raised by the Chairman.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister. There are eight minutes remaining and Deputies Flaherty and Higgins are offering. I ask them to keep to two or three minutes each, which will allow us to finish on time.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I assure Deputy Higgins that I will leave plenty of time for her. I welcome the Supplementary Estimate and congratulate the Minister on all the work he is doing. He has hit the ground running and everybody on the committee agrees that he is the man with all the solutions. We are invigorated by his efforts to date, as I am sure everyone here agrees.

I want to follow up on the points raised by the Chairman regarding heritage officers and county architects. In Longford County Council, both of those roles are in place and they are transformative. The additional appointment of biodiversity officers would be a very welcome step. I am delighted to hear that more staff are coming. One of the major challenges we have in following through on the very ambitious plans to reform housing provision is the need for additional staff.

I want to flag a number of issues with the Minister, most of which I have already raised with him. Ballymahon in County Longford needs a fire station. Center Parcs is doing a major new development there, involving an additional 500 units and several hundred more staff. The company has flagged the need for a new fire station, which I will follow up on with the Minister.

I previously raised with him issues to do with the old shared ownership scheme. It is punitive for people to try to buy themselves out of that scheme. I understand his officials are having a look at the issue and doing a scoping exercise to see what can be done to resolve it. Is there any progress on that to date?

Regarding the Rebuilding Ireland home loan scheme and the commitment to a fresh start for people in second relationships, I would like to see something definite on that in the next couple of months. Many people are in limbo as a result of the current uncertainty.

Affordable housing provision needs to be rolled out throughout the State, an ambition I know the Minister shares. We really need to see it being done.

As we become more carbon and environmentally aware, an issue I am increasingly finding is that many elderly people in rural areas are living in inadequate houses. For instance, I know of a lady in a rural location who owns her own home and is in receipt of a payment from the Department of Social Protection. Her house is only valued at €60,000 and, if she sells it, she will not be able to buy an adequate replacement. There are schemes operating in Dublin whereby people can hand over properties to the local authorities and swap them for a new one.

I would like to see the Minister's officials look at something similar for rural Ireland to help those, increasingly older people, caught in such inadequate housing.

I hope I have left enough time for my colleague, Deputy Higgins.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There is no way we can leave Deputy Higgins out.

Deputy Flaherty and the Chairman mentioned county architects. There is a commitment in that regard in Housing for All. Not all our counties have county architects. They have been extremely valuable, particularly in making sure that the character of particular areas is maintained. In Cork, Clonakilty and such places they have been really successful. That is an action point and we will do it. We will continue to roll out additional technical posts. These are good jobs in which people can see they have really good opportunities to build real and lasting careers in our local government sector. That is what I want. I want our graduates coming into local government, I want apprenticeships in local government and I want people back out building, using their trades and so on. We are working on the county architects element and will work on it further.

As for fire stations, Deputy Flaherty has mentioned Ballymahon to me before. We are looking at it as part of the review. Just so members know, we have a five-year capital plan worth €61 million for fire services. It is a very significant plan. I have kept fire services directly under my remit. I have immense regard for the women and men of our fire services all across the country. I have had the pleasure of visiting many of the fire stations across the country. We have seen great improvements to their facilities and equipment. That capital plan is really significant and we will drive it on. There will be a review of it early in the new year, so any Deputies who have matters they wish to raise, as Deputy Flaherty has done with Ballymahon, may do so and we will revert to them on those matters.

The Fresh Start principle permeates all the affordable housing mechanisms and schemes we have in place. It is really important to people who may have gone through a marriage break-up, personal insolvency, etc. Fresh Start will apply also to the revised Rebuilding Ireland home loan, which is the local authority affordable home loan. We have already reduced the rating on it. We are making some further changes to it. I have issued letters and circulars on affordable housing to all local authorities. All directors of housing services and chief executives have also had full briefings on affordable housing with my housing team. We are helping them and working together to do this.

I wish to leave time for Deputy Higgins to come in.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We have three minutes, and I have to stick strictly to that because the room needs to be vacated and prepared for the next meeting. I call on Deputy Higgins. Minister, if you could respond and make your closing statement in the next three minutes, that would be helpful.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I will talk fast. I welcome the historic investment in the housing budget, which, of course, is the number one priority for all of us on the committee. I know that that funding will be used to help people to own their own home or to get into long-term affordable leases. That is very welcome. I also welcome the €2 billion URDF funding. We see the benefits of that funding in Lucan every day. The Minister was there for the opening of Tandy's Park and saw the huge impact the funding has had. Airlie Park is under construction. It is good to hear that the Minister is preparing to make announcements on additional planning and housing staff for local authorities. They are badly needed. We need more people not only in housing to make sure that the budget is being exhausted and spent in the right place but also in planning when it comes to everything from enforcement right through to decision-making.

As for resourcing, I have two quick suggestions for the Minister. First, I ask that he look at costing a clerk of works role across local authorities and decide whether that could be incorporated long-term into planning policy and legislation to ensure that planning is appropriately regulated. Second is the creation of an animal welfare officer in each local authority. The Minister might think that that might impact only rural councils, but urban ones such as mine in south Dublin have an awful lot of dealings with horses in particular. My Lovely Horse Rescue has been calling for this measure.

I have a further brief question that the Minister might answer if there is time. It is about the key performance indicators, KPIs, or goals for chief executives. The Department has a stringent rhythm and cadence in respect of its reporting on housing, social housing in particular. The Department captures the affordable housing metrics as well. I would like to know if it measures other things. When it allocates money for vacant or void units, for example, does the Minister get a reassurance that those resources are ring-fenced by each local authority and spent for that specific use? When the Minister makes announcements in this regard, he usually says the funding is enough to cover 150 units or whatever per local authority. Is the Minister made aware when that housing comes back into stock? Does he get that reported on?

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Minister, could you be as brief as possible? I am afraid I have to end the meeting in the next minute.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Higgins for the incredible work she has been doing and the support she has given to our housing strategy in her constituency, Dublin Mid-West, and nationally. I mean that genuinely. She has been very progressive and positive about things.

Yes, we track allocation of moneys and outputs. We give funding only on a recoupment basis. The work has to be done before we give it, so we know what the funding is given for.

As for a clerk of works post, those types of posts and project manager posts will be announced in the coming days. We are considering that.

Deputy Higgins is right that animal welfare is really important. It generally falls under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine but I can raise the matter with my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, because there is interaction between his Department and local authorities. The matter is mainly a function of his Department, but the Deputy makes a very good point and I understand completely why she has raised it. I will raise it with the Minister, Deputy McConalogue.

Deputy Higgins's council is South Dublin County Council, and I have been out there with her a number of times. Tandy's Park is magnificent. That whole area is seeing new homes built for families with brilliant new facilities being delivered in partnership between the local authority and the private sector. The local authority is doing it with State money; private builders are doing it as well. Everyone, public and private, has to work together to deliver the facilities we need. There is no utopia where the State will do everything for everyone. It does not work that way. It is good that we are delivering good, affordable homes and facilities for people.

I ask Deputy Higgins to come directly to me on any other matters she wishes to raise. I thank her for her support.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister and the officials from his Department for assisting the committee with our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate.