James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, and members. Apologies have been received from Deputy Carroll MacNeill. Today's meeting is to consider the following Supplementary Estimates: Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána; Vote 22 - the Courts Service; and Vote 24 - Department of Justice. Before we proceed, I note that divisions are taking place in the Dáil today and it is possible we will hear the bells sound. It is we for whom the bell tolls and, if that happens, we will have to suspend and return. We will keep an eye on the monitors over the course of the meeting.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending and everybody involved in the provision of information on the Supplementary Estimates. The format of the meeting is that the Minister of State will be invited to make some brief opening remarks, after which members are welcome to comment. We will then take each Supplementary Estimate in turn and work through the subheads. If it is appropriate to have closing remarks, that can be accommodated. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that, in accordance with Standing Orders, discussion should be confined to the items constituting the Supplementary Estimates before us today. The purpose of today's meeting is to review those end-of-year Estimates. Matters outside of that, including the original Estimates for the start of the year, are not in the scope of the meeting. Members will be familiar with the long-standing parliamentary practice relating to privilege, which requires that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable. Members are well used at this stage to the protocols in that regard as well as those relating to Zoom meetings. As usual, I ask that they make sure they are off mute when speaking and on mute when not.

I invite the Minister of State to make his opening remarks, after which I will go around the table to see whether members want to respond.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and members for making time available to consider these Supplementary Estimates for An Garda Síochána, the Courts Service and a technical Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Justice Vote. I am joined by officials from my Department, Mr. Seamus Clifford, principal officer, and Ms Martina Colville, assistant secretary.

A net Supplementary Estimate requirement of €22.9 million arises in respect of the Garda Síochána Vote this year. This comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €45.9 million, which is offset by a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid receipts of €23 million, giving a net requirement of €22.9 million for the Vote. The additional requirement reflects the ongoing front-line and visible nature of An Garda Síochána's work to support public health measures and counteract the impact of the pandemic throughout the State during 2021. It is expected that the overtime spend will exceed the budget by some €18.4 million, while payroll costs, excluding overtime, will require an additional €7.5 million. Overtime expenditure came under particular pressure with the enforcement of Covid restrictions during the year, particularly as society opened in early summer. An Garda Síochána had to deploy preventative patrols in high-volume public areas in line with the outdoor summer policy, which was an overall success. While the Commissioner has taken measures to address the overrun, I am informed that the expected additional requirement is in the region of €18.4 million.

It was necessary for the Commissioner to extend the Covid roster arrangements for 2021, which impacted on the payroll subhead. However, there are other contributory factors as well. The impact of pay increases, particularly the superannuation parity agreement with Garda pensioners, has contributed to the additional requirements for pay and pensions. An additional €12.2 million is required in respect of this superannuation subhead. The related pay increases were not finalised until 2021, which means no provision was made in the Revised Estimates.

The Supplementary Estimate also provides in the region of €2 million for the procurement of essential equipment purchases, mainly relating to ICT capital, to increase the organisation's agility and flexibility. This includes the continued upgrading or replacing on a phased basis of the Garda ICT network, including hardware to support the continued roll-out of operational equipment and increasing demand arising from additional staffing numbers.

There is a technical aspect to the Supplementary Estimate in that An Garda Síochána is in receipt of Internal Security Fund, ISF, funding for certain ICT capital and other projects. The ISF is a European Structural Fund which contributes to ensuring a high level of security throughout the European Union. This funding includes investment of €1.7 million in ICT capital equipment to combat cybercrime and €1.7 million for upgraded equipment for the Garda helicopter. The Supplementary Estimate is the mechanism for reflecting expenditure from this source and in total, expenditure is approximately €4 million with a corresponding receipt of €3.3 million in appropriations-in-aid.

There are various other overspends in the non-pay subheads including on telecommunications services of €6.7 million, station services of €4.8 million and transport fuel and maintenance costs of €2.9 million. On the other hand, there are certain offsetting costs available, including those related to the scaled-down activities and redeployment of resources from the Garda College for a period during the pandemic and surplus receipts from pension contributions.

I take this opportunity to commend An Garda Síochána on the leadership and resilience Garda members have shown over the past 20 months through a very challenging period for them and for our society. I know members will agree that An Garda Síochána has provided, and continues to provide, a crucial front-line service to all our communities throughout the Covid-19 pandemic.

A net Supplementary Estimate of €3 million is required in 2021 in respect of the Courts Service Vote. The Courts Service expects that the shortfall in court fees income will be in the region of €7 million as a direct result of the impact of Covid-19. This will be offset in part by underspends in gross expenditure of approximately €4 million, thus giving rise to the additional Supplementary Estimate requirement of €3 million. The Courts Service has also indicated that it will have a capital carryover requirement of €3.638 million from 2021 to 2022.

The increase in Courts Service business in the second half of the year will not be sufficient to make up for the shortfall in income in the earlier part of the year. The shortfall also reflects the reduction in income due to the delay in reopening the night-time economy in the second half of 2021, underpinned by the Government decision to waive the licensing and special exemptions orders fees to support vintners, other licensed premises and the hospitality sector generally.

The shortfall in fee income has been offset in part by underspends in gross expenditure, including in areas such as travel expenses due to the impact of the Covid-19 restrictions, along with an underspend on leases when jury sittings were not held in the first few months of 2021. On the other hand, there have been increased costs in other areas such as telecommunications costs arising from the increase in network connections to support digital courtroom sessions.

Throughout the pandemic, the Judiciary and the Courts Service have worked closely together to find innovative technological solutions that would enable them to maintain the highest level of court activity possible, with a particular focus on families, victims of domestic abuse and people who are most vulnerable at this time. It is expected that the progress made on new ways of working will be maintained into the future.

The Minister, Deputy McEntee, is committed to driving the modernisation and digital-first agenda across the entire justice sector. I particularly welcome the commitment set out by the Courts Service in its Corporate Strategic Plan 2021–2023, to maximise the use of digital technologies to provide an improved and user-centred service. I am particularly pleased to note the steps taken to use video link and other technologies to the greatest extent possible. These steps are welcome progress in the modernisation of services. Substantial additional funding has been provided for the courts modernisation programme and I look forward to the positive outcome of this investment for the service in the future.

A technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 is required in respect of the justice Vote. No additional funding is required for the Vote. The technical Supplementary Estimate is required to utilise surplus receipts to offset additional costs in the gross part of the Vote. This relates to areas such as payroll, as well as administrative expenses, including legal costs and contracted services, in functions such as internal audit and funds administration within my Department. It is also needed for demand-led costs, particularly for criminal legal aid and custody issues schemes.

There are underspends in a number of other subheads such as compensation for personal injuries criminally inflicted and the Coroner Service which are mainly due to timing issues. These underspends are available to offset overruns in other subheads, thus ensuring a balanced Vote in 2021.

The surplus receipts are expected to be in the region of €12.8 million and mainly relate to additional EU receipts of €8 million and immigration-related fees of approximately €5 million. The additional EU receipts are mainly due to extra European Social Fund, ESF, receipts being made available to my Department by the managing authority, which is the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. This is largely as a result of reductions in claims in other areas of the public service under the ESF operational programme, which has allowed for additional justice-related funding claims in respect of qualifying expenditure in areas such as youth justice and probation in the previous year.

Due to uncertainty over foreign travel and other Covid-related restrictions, it was difficult to predict the intake from immigration-related fees in 2021. While we expect a relatively small shortfall in visa and citizenship fees, there will be a surplus in immigration registration fees due to the renewal of existing registration fees and new applications coming on stream towards the end of the year.

I recommend the Supplementary Estimates to the committee and I am happy to address any questions members may have.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. I will open each category and will invite individual members to speak under each category. I will take each Vote at a time. We are dealing with Vote 20, Garda Síochána; Vote 22, Courts Service; and Vote 24, Justice technical matters. We will start with Vote 20, Garda Síochána. I ask members to raise their hands to indicate they wish to speak and we will take them in order. We will not have time limits as such in this meeting; it is not that kind of meeting. We will take questions and answers as they arise and get through it quite efficiently. When members are posing questions, I ask them to refer to the particular subhead.

I will kick off with a question on the Garda Vote. There is an allocation for an increased investment in ICT equipment under subhead A.6. We are all aware of the 999 calls being dropped. We had a significant debate with the Garda Commissioner and the head of the Policing Authority recently. It has been mentioned at this committee and will be in the new year again. Does the ICT investment relate to the issue with dropped 999 calls? Is there anything in this Estimate that would go towards that?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing specific to the dropped 999 calls. About this time last year, the AGS wrote to the Secretary General regarding examination of computer-aided dispatch priority 1 incidents specifically relating to cancellation of those 999 calls. In an update on 14 October this year the Policing Authority indicated that Mr. Penman's review is taking longer than envisaged due to legal issues. This ICT investment does not relate particularly to 999 calls. We will have to await the review.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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On subhead A.3, clothing and accessories, how is the tender for Garda uniforms, clothing, footwear etc. managed? Is a tender done every year or is it done once every few years? Is it a competitive tender? How does it work? If the Minister of State does not have the information to hand, perhaps he might follow up with a note.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the information to hand as to how it is handled, but I will get it for the Chairman.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I have a general question on the money that might be left over in the context of the Covid pandemic. Many Garda stations, particularly in rural areas, were closed during the austerity years. Barraduff Garda station was recently reopened. With the need for distancing to avoid the spread of Covid, are there any plans to expand reopenings? For example, are there any plans to reopen the stations at Ballylongford, Moyvane, Brosna and An Clochán? There might be compelling reasons for doing so due to Covid and also the distance between the Garda stations because gardaí were put into other Garda stations when they were closed.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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What subhead is the Deputy referring to? Is his question on A.2? I ask members to direct their questions towards the Supplementary Estimates.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It is on pay.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will be aware, there is a programme commitment to reopen six Garda stations. In conjunction with the Office of Public Works, OPW, there has been successful completion of the refurbishment of four of the six Garda stations that have been reopened: Donard in County Wicklow; Ballinspittle in County Cork; Stepaside in County Dublin and Rush, also in County Dublin. Two remaining Garda stations will require refurbishment in order for them to reopen, which are Bawnboy in County Cavan and Leighlinbridge in County Carlow. The plan for the two remaining stations is under review pending finalisation of the Garda Síochána capital investment programme for 2022 to 2030. I do not have any details on other Garda stations, but I will try to get the information on any particular station for Deputy Daly, if he would like.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested in the issue of the additional investment in ICT that is required, especially in view of the cybercrime incident we had earlier this year and the ongoing growth in crime, fraud, etc., in that area, whether it is through people's bank accounts and mobile phones or other fraud over the Internet, which is clearly a growth area, unfortunately, for many people who are experiencing it. I am concerned about whether An Garda Síochána has enough resources, adequate equipment and personnel with an adequate level of technical experience and training, to be able to combat this major problem we are facing in many of our communities throughout the country.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Much of the money that is being used this year for ICT capital is money that was intended to be spent next year, but was brought forward to this year. This is to allow the Garda Síochána to get a head start on plans to deal with the likes of cybercrime next year. As I said, €2 million of the IT allocation was brought forward from 2022 to put the Garda Síochána into a ready stage going into 2022. This is particularly focused on the computer aided control room, CAD2, project and protecting the network infrastructure of An Garda Síochána. This figure will speak to the Deputy's point about ensuring protection against cybercrime.

The procurement of essential equipment purchases for the Garda was also brought forward, mainly for ICT capital to increase the organisation's agility and flexibility. We have seen the importance of this in ensuring that, for example, €800,000 is being spent on the network infrastructure firewalls to protect against cybercrime breaches of the network. Another €600,000 is being spent on F5 load balancers to support IT replacements and upgrades to enhance system performance. In the most basic of language, that is to ensure the system can work fast enough. There is also another €500,000 for hardware. As I said, some €2 million is being brought forward with the issue of cybercrime very much in mind.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask about one final aspect of this issue in respect of personnel and the adequate experience and training that they may need. Is the Garda recruiting people with that particular type of expertise or has it been contracted in from agencies that do that type of work?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that where members of the Garda have that skill set, it is being used. This particular hardware - I got a good briefing on the type of technology that is needed, some of which comes from the United States of America, in my Garda station in Wexford - is state-of-the-art technology. Where that training is needed it will be brought in from the outside, but in a secure manner. Some of the hardware, in particular, is quite expensive and needs specialist training on how to use it to utmost effectiveness.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will move to Vote 22, which concerns the Courts Service. I ask Members to put their hands up if they want to come in. I will kick us off with a question. There is a provision for an underspend of €5.2 million on courthouses and offices. As the Minister of State knows, there is a demand throughout the country for the revitalisation of various courthouses, not least Naas courthouse. I made a point on this issue before, as I know Deputy Daly did. We all have our own particular interests with which the Minister will be familiar. Is the underspend because the money is being held back for a capital project in the new year? I am not sure why an underspend is arising.

I will make a second point and the Minister of State can reply to both questions together. He made reference in his speech to various arrangements that were put in place during the Covid pandemic for policing, which probably also apply to courthouses. The committee has previously commented on the situation where trials for the entire Leinster region circuit were being held, for example, in Drogheda and, possibly, Trim courthouses. A similar thing happened in other parts of the country. There was an argument that another option might have been more efficient. While there was social distancing in any venue identified on each circuit, people travelled to that court from around the province each day, sometimes for a case that involved a two-minute application and then they were gone. A whole legal team, including staff and gardaí, had to travel for that and there was expense associated with it. I am not convinced that it was the most efficient use of resources. I submit that perhaps it might have been better to use more local venues, which could equally have managed social distancing. Given where we are with Covid, is centralising all matters to one or two courthouses per circuit, with the attendant travel that goes with it, anticipated to continue or is it expected that situation will begin to fall back and we will return to local courthouses, or local venues will be identified, where social distancing is possible?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We are allowed to carry over up to 10% of an unspent capital fund from a particular year into the following year. Due to the Covid pandemic, a number of building projects probably faced challenging situations when it came to spending money, which we have seen across the construction sector. In that context, it would be expected that funding would be carried over. As we know, there is an ambitious plan in the national development plan to refurbish and build courthouses. We certainly hope that can be carried out as quickly as possible. I understand that the Naas site will be purchased from the capital carryover to 2022. That purchase is in process at the moment. The funding is very much tied and connected to the situation in Naas and that is being actively pursued.

On other courthouses, Tralee courthouse, for example, currently comprises two courtrooms and is located on Ashe Street, as Deputy Daly will be fully aware. There has been a challenge there. For some time now, the Courts Service has been seeking a suitable site for a courthouse in Tralee. A number of options have been explored in this regard, including the Island of Geese site, which is in the town centre, is in council ownership and is the preferred option. Discussions between the Courts Service and Kerry County Council in respect of this site are ongoing. Earlier in the year, the site was assessed as suitable for a courthouse development by the OPW's architectural services. Evaluation of the portion of the site under consideration for courthouse development has been received from Kerry County Council. That will, hopefully, allow the negotiations to be furthered. It is understood that the disposal of the Island of Geese site to the Courts Service will require the approval of the full council. A key consideration for the council in this regard is the future of Ashe Street courthouse when the Courts Service vacate it. There are a number of moving parts around the Tralee site, but finding a solution to that situation is being actively pursued.

On the earlier question on clothing, every number of years clothing and accessories are tendered for on a competitive basis in a bundle. I am told that it is tendered on a bundled basis rather than on a piecemeal basis year-on-year.

The situation in relation to other courts improved in terms of accessibility and trials as Covid went on as various courts improved their ICT equipment. Particular ICT capabilities are needed to be able to use a court for a jury trial. A number of courts had their abilities improved. With the court modernisation, improving that ICT right across the courts system is a critical priority for the Courts Service and for the Department of Justice so that we can get all our courthouses up to standard as quickly as possible, but obviously during the Covid pandemic, everything is a challenge.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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On subhead A2.6, as the Minister of State correctly said, there are currently two courts in the existing building. That does not take into account all the spare space that is within the building. There is enough space, in my opinion, for at least three extra courtrooms in the existing premises. There was a review which, I believe, is outdated for a number of reasons, including, most importantly, the programme for Government commitment to town centres. As the Minister of State said, we are moving towards a solution. However, the solution might be a bad solution. There needs to be joined-up thinking because this involves the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Justice, and there are a number of other factors.

Currently, similar to what was indicated by the Chair, for certain court trials in Kerry, witnesses, gardaí, defendants and their families are all leaving the county and going to Limerick court. That is completely unacceptable. There is an opportunity now. There is a true fork in the road. With some of the other developments, such as ICT, there is less need for prisoners to come to court. Many of the remands are being done remotely from the jails. We need to look at this but there needs to be joined-up thinking. I will not tell the buildings committee of the Courts Service, the members of which are all capable of making up their own minds, but their job is to provide an effective courthouse for the county of Kerry. They do not have to factor in the overall benefit, not only to the town centre of Tralee but to the county of Kerry. That is my job. What they should be doing is looking at that in particular.

There is a building across the road, the old Kerry Protestant Hall, which could be for sale. It was brought up at the Courts Service buildings committee that that building could be available for in the region of €450,000, which, I suppose, might be going up. There was a €5.2 million underspend last year. The Minister of State and the Government are the ones who can have the joined-up thinking, talk to officials in Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and talk to the architect who states there should be a review of this building carried out by a grade 1 heritage architect. It was constructed in 1830 or 1840 from limestone in The Green, the town park in Tralee, by a 17-year-old apprentice architect, I understand, who was working with a very famous architect at the time. It is central to the history and the heritage of the town.

We must keep the court service in the town for a number of other economic reasons that will not be considered by the Courts Service buildings committee, no doubt a group of very eminent and distinguished people. We can do something that would be beneficial. The common good of the town of Tralee demands it. These are not requests. These are demands that something proper be done. If it is a simple box-ticking exercise by the Courts Service, no doubt it will think there is a brownfield site at the other end of town it should opt for, but there will be no additional benefit to the town centre arising out of the grant of the Kerry Group to the townspeople of Tralee for the old urban district council. That shows how long ago that was donated. With the capital carryover, there is a historic opportunity to do something, not thinking for the next ten or 20 years but for the next 70 or 80 years, to improve a town centre which has been hampered by out-of-town shopping centres etc.

We need to develop town centres. There needs to be extra footfall. As the studies, particularly in England, have shown, there must be increased jobs and an increase not only in the people living but in the people working in the town centre. To generate an additional 100 people working in the town centre and people coming in on juries, etc., there has to be imagination and flexibility. It is not good enough for the Courts Service to come back and say this does not suit it. There has to be a fresh cross-departmental look at this before the wrong solution is made for Tralee courthouse.

There are, of course, other smaller courthouses, such as Castleisland and Killorglin, that were closed. The local authority provided a courthouse in Castleisland, which is a town of 2,000 people. It and other courthouses were closed. Those decisions should be reviewed as well because they took more footfall away from those town centres. I hope the Government will take that into consideration and listen to the overwhelming demand of the people of Tralee for a change in mindset about it.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Daly for his comments. I certainly hear what he is saying and I will take his comments back to Government. Obviously, the location is not a decision for me but the Deputy makes a strong argument for keeping that courthouse in the town centre. I come from a town that lost its courthouse ten years ago and I saw the impact of that in my town centre. A number of factors need to be taken into consideration and there are many moving parts, as the Deputy states, with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Department of Justice, the Office of Public Works, OPW, the Courts Service, and the critical matter of being able to deliver that necessary service. I certainly hear the Deputy and I will bring his comments back to the various parties.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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As nobody else wants to contribute, that concludes Vote 22 on the Courts Service. The next Vote, Vote 24, has two pillars and I propose to take each of them separately. There is the criminal justice pillar, Vote 24A, and then Vote 24B is the civil justice pillar. I will take the criminal justice pillar first and we will take questions on that. Then I will take questions on the civil justice pillar.

I have two questions on the criminal justice Vote 24A. First, I note that, in Backweston, which is outside Celbridge, the Forensic Science Ireland laboratory is under development. I was delighted to attend at the turning of the sod there a couple of years ago when that was first in being. That is progressing. There is €5 million allocated to that in these Estimates. That is certainly good news. I ask the Minister of State to comment on the plans for that and how that is going.

Under the same pillar, Vote 24A, subhead A15, legal aid, we have heard a number of questions in the Chamber in recent times and there is a general argument being put forward, certainly by practitioners and those in the field such as State solicitors and barristers etc., who are on legal aid rates, that the rates have not changed. Unlike in many other professions, there has been no unwinding of the financial emergency measures in public interest, FEMPI, rates. Indeed, people are beginning to leave those professions. There may come a crisis point in terms of legally aided defendants and, indeed, prosecutions. Various stakeholders would argue that is coming sooner rather than later. From personal experience, there are people leaving weekly. It is regrettable. The Minister of State might comment, either under this subhead or elsewhere, on whether there is any movement on that.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair. He will be aware the new Forensic Science Ireland, FSI, laboratory is a €99.5 million project comprising just over €90 million in capital with a contingency fund attached to it. It is something we should welcome. When it is established, it will be important for our justice system. The OPW has responsibility for delivering that project.

In line with the spending code, governmental approval was required and given for the project on 3 March 2020. Duggan Brothers (Contractors) Limited has the main contract. Total expenditure to the end of September on the main contract was €47.97 million, which represents 52% of the total projected spend. During October 2021, 255 people were working on site, which is important for the local economy.

The new laboratory will provide FSI with a functional purpose-built facility and will allow for the achievement of best practice standards for evidence processing, analysis and storage. We want to have this state-of-the-art facility in the State and ensure it not only gives us a state-of-the-art service but allows for international best practice, which is critical. In terms of working with our partners on the serious issue of international crime and terrorism within the European Union and on an international basis, we want to ensure we can all compete and work on a level playing field. This facility is a critical enabler of FSI strategy over the next five years. It seeks to integrate the laboratory functions of An Garda Síochána's technical bureau into the FSI as well. It represents a significant and important investment in our criminal justice system and tackling international and national crime. The works to date have consisted of the substructure, primary structure and the main and service buildings. It is progressing quite well.

Do members have any more questions on the centre? There is a proposed data centre on the site adjoining FSI laboratory facility. It has received full planning permission. The progress on the data centre will be closely monitored.

The Chair asked about legal aid. On the unwinding of rates for legal aid practitioners, the various professional fees across the Civil Service and those who are paid for work on behalf of the State is a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and not the Department of Justice. It is within the bailiwick of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy McGrath.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. The Backweston project is very welcome. I have been on site and it is great to see it progressing, along with the data centre and the general campus that is developing there. Am I correct about the figure being €47.97 million in terms of the overall footprint?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The overall budget for the project is €99.5 million, comprising €90.5 million for the main contract and the balance, including a contingency fund, for site clearance, prep works and the contract itself. Up to September this year, €47.97 million, representing 52% of the total cost of the project, has been spent on the main contract. As I said, when an assessment was carried out in October of this year, in the order of 255 people working on site.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. That is very good news.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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On this section, I would like to hear the concerns of the Minister of State on criminal legal aid. The system is under strain and ultimately people will lose out in terms of access to justice.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The sound is not great. I do not know if you have a handset. Do you want to try to improve it to get the benefit of your contribution?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The Chair cut me off in the middle of waxing lyrical about concerns around criminal legal aid and access to justice. I will leave that where it was.

I refer to subhead A7 and the Probation Service. What is behind the drop? Are we losing Probation Service staff? Subhead A7 refers to Probation Service salaries, wages and allowances and the Supplementary Estimate is down by €800,000. What is behind that drop in spend? I am concerned about losing Probation Service staff, given their important role.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Criminal legal aid is a vital element of our criminal justice system. The 1962 Act gives effect to a constitutional right and states that legal aid may granted for the defence of persons of insufficient means in criminal proceedings. As someone who practised criminal law as a barrister, there is the weight of the State on one side. Therefore, it is essential that whoever is facing a prosecution has the means and ability to be able to defend himself or herself.

Criminal legal aid is demand led and has two separate budgets. The main budget, which is €69 million for 2021, involves the main scheme, and there are a number of ad hocschemes such as the Garda station legal advice revised scheme. Additional provision for both schemes comprises €8 million for the main scheme and €3.5 million for the custody issue scheme.

As I said, it is demand led. If legal aid is granted by the courts, people are entitled to it and will be provided with it. It is one of the budgets we can try to predict . However, depending on activity in the criminal system, the budget can move from one year to the next.

The Covid pandemic has meant it has been quite difficult to recruit Probation Service staff. The process of recruiting additional staff was slower than we would have wished. We expect to gather momentum coming into 2022 and get staff into place. Like a lot of recruitment during the pandemic, it has been a challenge. I acknowledge we are not where want to be in that regard and we will bring a particular focus to rectifying that situation.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister of State.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We will move onto the next part of the Vote, 24B, the civil justice pillar.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe I should raise this in respect of the Courts Service, but a complaint was recently made to me about the number of judges available. I do not know whether that matter falls under judges' pay or the Courts Service. I am aware of a person who has a terminal cancer diagnosis and wanted to put their affairs in order. They asked for the earliest possible date to hear their case and this week or last was given a date of July next year. The reason for this is apparently due to a shortage of judges. Some very good judges were appointed during the summer and early autumn, but it is not good enough that the earliest High Court list to finalise a case for somebody when people are ready to go is July of next year, which might be too late. Can more judges be appointed if that is what needs to happen?

On international protection and immigration programmes, we would be remiss if we did not mention the people who died in a boat in the channel last week.

There are people who want to say this all the work of criminal gangs luring people into boats. That is complete rubbish in my view. Appropriately at this time of year, these are Middle Eastern families - men, women, some of whom are pregnant, and children - who are putting their lives at risk in freezing cold conditions in what are probably the busiest shipping lanes in the world. They are risking their lives crossing the channel to try to seek asylum in the UK. If they get as far as Britain, most of them will be entitled to asylum because of the regimes from which they have fled. The Dublin Protocol is in place. It should be reviewed.

Can we step in as a country and make some sort of an offer to take some of them, because it is literally a life-and-death situation? Can we get safe passage to some of them to bring them in, like the Syrian programme? It could be a few people per constituency. Wealthy nations in the West, and we are one, have an obligation to try to do something about it. It is unacceptable in this day for us to sit back and not do anything about tragedies such as this when we are in a position to try to do something about them. The numbers getting in and claiming asylum, not only in Britain but also here, is greatly down on what it was maybe 20 years ago. There should be some room for us to make some sort of a gesture with this type of programme. I see spending is down. There is more money available. Can we do something to prevent this type of tragedy from reoccurring?

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will begin with waiting lists and delays in the courts. Our courts remained an essential service during the pandemic and were allowed to remain open, but there were some very real challenges around capacity in the courts system that resulted in a backlog. The Government is endeavouring to fill judicial vacancies at the earliest opportunity to ensure the courts have the necessary judges in place. Five additional judges were created during the summer under the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2021. A review of the need for judges across the different levels of the judicial system is being carried out. Judicial numbers are being kept under review. Appointments will be made as needed. There are delays and I have no doubt the courts will prioritise cases in a compassionate manner as always, taking into account the serious situations some people find themselves in.

On immigration and refugees, as I said in the Dáil last week, my deepest sympathies go to those who drowned in the channel. Every one of those people only looked for a better life for him or herself. They all have families and friends who will mourn their loss. In my county, there were tragic losses of refugees and asylum seekers who were found in a container. That anniversary is on 8 December. We will mark that in Drinagh in Wexford. We need to look at these situations with compassion.

I do not think Ireland has been found wanting. We have taken a very robust and generous approach to facilitating refugees who are brought into Ireland. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has been very strong on that. That is also true in this Department of the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and me. We moved quickly to put a policy in place to bring Afghan refugees to Ireland. We were one of the first, if not the first, European country to put a system like that in place. We called on our European colleagues to take a more European approach. It is challenging. There is no question. We are bringing as many refugees into Ireland as we have the capacity for. When you bring any refugee family into Ireland, there have to be the necessary supports available in education, mental health or physical, and depending on the refugees' individual backgrounds. I stand over what the Department of Justice and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth have done around bringing those in need into Ireland. We are limited by capacity but we are keeping it under review always. We are dealing with all these situations in a compassionate manner and we will continue to do so.

I agree we must keep all these things under review. The Criminal Justice (Smuggling of Persons) Bill will be back in the Dáil this evening. It is perfectly understandable that there are people who are trying to seek a better life. Irish people through the generations have done that. However there are people - the smugglers - who seek to take financial benefit from this and put people's lives at risk. It is not to anyone's benefit that the smugglers can operate without consequences to themselves. We have to ensure smugglers are caught and prosecuted but that those trying to seek a better life are not prosecuted. The legislation we will debate this evening will ensure that is the case.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the topic. We all extend our sympathies to the families of those who were lost at sea in recent days. I know fishing boats local to the Minister of State's own constituency were at sea that day and managed to assist some of the vessels. I do not think that was reported but I was speaking to fishermen who had been around the area and managed to help some others, but unfortunately not all.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I hope my sound is working because I want to get up on my soapbox again to endorse what Deputy Daly said about the number of judges and the capacity of the system. Yes, there has been a backlog arising from Covid but there is also a problem with the number of judges. There is a problem with investment in access to justice both through civil legal aid and criminal legal aid, but also in the area of judges. We appointed five additional judges, which was very welcome, but it must be put against the context of the President of the High Court saying she needs 17 extra judges. That is just the High Court. That does not include the District and Circuit Courts. If we are appointing more judges in the District and Circuit Courts, they need to be free to move around and not tied to one district or circuit so they can be mobile and able to address the demand and waiting lists as they appear. We absolutely need more judges. We have 3.3 judges per 100,000 people compared with 21 judges per 100,000 in most European countries. In rankings by international bodies that review the efficiency of justice systems, Ireland comes fairly low.

The point I wanted to make originally overlaps to a degree with the Estimates in subhead B10 for the Coroners Court. There is an underspend of about €5 million. I would like to hear more about that. What caused it and what are the problems behind it? I asked a question about the coroner system during Questions on Promised Legislation. There is a report from 2000 which recommended radical reform. Research by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, shows this has not happened and the coroner system is under-resourced and regionally disjointed. Deputies Gould and Ó Laoghaire have been talking a lot about the challenges around the Coroners Court in Cork. I am sure these problems are repeated everywhere.

In its pre-budget submission, the ICCL asked for a paltry amount of approximately €300,000 towards taking the first step in a radical reform of and improvement of the coroner system. If we have such a large underspend, we should be using at least some of it to deliver those reforms that have been advocated for by the ICCL. I would like some information on how the underspend came about.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware of the case put forward by the Judiciary for an increased number of judges. That is why the judicial planning working group has been put together. We are looking forward to the report, which is being compiled independently by Ms Brigid McManus. This is in line with the programme for Government. We need to see not just how many judges are needed, but where they are needed at the various levels of our court system - District Court, Circuit Court and High Court - and what types of judge we need. For example, do we need more specialist judges for certain areas? We must assess these questions so that we can have an efficient and effective administration of justice. We have heard the call for additional judges but, to put it bluntly, judges are not cheap. They cost an awful lot of money. However, our democracy is dependent on having an effective judicial system that people believe in. We must have the necessary number of judges but we must ensure they are the right judges operating at the right levels and in the right places. We look forward to the report. It is expected to be ready next spring. Once it is to hand, we will look to see how we go about implementing it.

The majority of the underspend in the coroner service relates to the Stardust inquiry. It was expected to start this year but, for various reasons, it has not. That money is expected to be spent in 2022 as the service carries out work in respect of the inquiry.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I will make a quick point. I thank the Minister of State for his clear answer and I am glad the money is being kept for the inquiry.

Regarding the Judiciary, it is not just an issue of judges. A judge cannot sit without a registrar. We need more registrars as well. There is an expensive judges' pay bill but there is also the added expense of at least two registrars per judge.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I have not practised as a barrister for 14 years but I know how important registrars are and how important it is they be looked after as well.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will comment on the issue of judges. The Minister of State remarked about the price tag, to put it bluntly. I know where he is coming from and I understand that there are always resource issues, but it is important to consider the appointment of judges in the context of the challenges arising and view it not as an individual being appointed to the role of judge but as a new courtroom being set up. A new court would be sitting every day of the week for years. How many more cases on the lists could it progress? It is extremely good value for money when it is viewed in this way as opposed to looking at the price per head, and we get so much in return.

Since that is the final subhead, we have concluded our consideration of the Estimates. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending.