Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Today we are dealing with matters pertaining to Irish heritage and engaging with the Heritage Council. I welcome Dr. Martina Moloney, chair designate of the Heritage Council; and Ms Virginia Teehan, chief executive officer of the council. Members have been provided with the opening statement furnished by the Heritage Council.

Standing Order 96 provides that the committee has the power to require that the chairperson designate of a body or agency under the aegis of the Department shall, prior to his or her appointment, attend before the committee to discuss his or her strategic priorities for the role. Today's meeting, while we are looking more broadly at activities of the council and heritage in general, will be considered to have discharged that requirement under Standing Orders.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses and members attending today's meeting, whether in person or remotely within the Leinster House complex, are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Those participating in today's meeting are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to the proceedings. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that privilege is not abused. If I am of the opinion that any statement is potentially defamatory or an identified person or entity, the member or witness making the statement will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction.

I welcome Dr. Moloney and Ms Teehan. The committee has noted that heritage is now a significant part of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We have not had the opportunity as yet to address heritage matters, although a number of members have emphasised how important they are. We do consider heritage to be very important. When we lose heritage, whether it is architectural, cultural or natural heritage, it is gone and it is very hard to get back. That is why it is so important that we acknowledge what we have and take whatever steps we can to preserve and conserve it for future generations. The heritage of a town, place, country or region connects generations together. It builds communities and fosters civic pride in an area when heritage is known. It is very important to us. It is just that our committee has been absolutely overrun with housing and planning issues and water-related issues. I am delighted we are getting an opportunity to address heritage today.

I invite Dr. Moloney to make her opening statement.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present before it on my nomination by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, as chair designate of the Heritage Council. I was appointed as an ordinary member of the council through the Public Appointments Service process on 2 November 2020.

I am privileged to have been selected as chair designate and I confirm my commitment to this important role.

I was a career official in Irish local government for 37 years, with more than 20 years in senior management roles. I was county manager in Louth County Council for four years and county manager in Galway County Council for seven years until my retirement in 2014. This role covered a vast array of activities to advance the economic, social and cultural development of the counties involved. I hold a BA and an MA in public management and a doctorate in governance. I am an experienced non-executive director of several State agencies, charities and companies limited by guarantee. I currently sit on the boards of the Arts Council, the Heritage Council and Jigsaw, the youth mental health organisation. I have previously been a member of the boards of Eirgrid, the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, and the Galway International Arts Festival. I am familiar with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the charities governance code, including the role of chairperson, council members' code of conduct and ethics in public office. I have served on audit and risk committees and committees dealing with finance and governance.

I am passionate about the valuable contribution of heritage to society. I have engaged with heritage in both professional and personal capacities over many years. I served as a member of the board of the Heritage Council from 2005 to 2010 and again for the last year. Through my career in local government, I interacted with the heritage sector. I was instrumental in negotiating the employment of the first heritage officer in Galway City Council in association with the Heritage Council. As county manager, I oversaw the development and delivery of heritage services in counties Louth and Galway. I engaged with many dedicated community volunteers who work tirelessly to protect and celebrate their local heritage. I served as chair of the Irish Walled Towns Network for four years from 2017 to 2019 and as treasurer of the BurrenBeo Trust, a landscape charity from 2016 to September 2021.

The Heritage Council is charged with an important role under the Heritage Act 1995, including promoting policies and priorities for the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of the national heritage and promoting interest, education, knowledge and pride in heritage as well as facilitating the appreciation and enjoyment of heritage. In my role as chair, my responsibility, working with the members of the council, its CEO Ms Virginia Teehan and her team, will be to deliver effectively on this mandate.

My vision for heritage is derived from a community perspective, building on people's connection to place, where heritage in all its forms is appreciated, conserved and protected. My priority is to work with the Heritage Council and its executive in the preparation of the council’s new strategic plan for 2022 to 2027. This will build on the work of the existing plan, Heritage at the Heart, which was successfully delivered by the former chairman, Mr. Michael Parsons, the council members and the executive. The preparation of a new strategy is a great opportunity to identify our shared vision for the Heritage Council. Priority areas of focus will include challenges for heritage arising from climate change, biodiversity and the role of the National Biodiversity Data Centre, heritage in a post-pandemic Ireland, support for community heritage initiatives, heritage and education, heritage 2030, complex heritage challenges facing towns, villages and rural communities and retrofitting historic buildings and associated building skills shortages.

The Heritage Council is a relatively small organisation with a broad mandate. Consequently, effective partnerships with key stakeholders are essential to success. These include, in particular, partnerships with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, local authorities and the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, together with a range of other Departments, State agencies and Heritage Council-funded bodies. Such collaborative working, in which I have extensive experience, helps to ensure best practice and best value for the people of Ireland.

I thank the Chairman and committee members for their attention and, together with the CEO, will try to respond to any questions they may have.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Moloney. I invite questions from members, beginning with Senator Fitzpatrick.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for attending and apologise for being late. The Seanad is sitting to deal with legislation so I will have to leave again but will look back on the proceedings later. I thank the witnesses for their time and for the work they and the Heritage Council do throughout the year. We have a very rich and unique heritage and it must be a great privilege for the witnesses to have such an important role in safeguarding and promoting our heritage. I am a former city councillor from the north side of Dublin. Dublin City Council has a very strong heritage role and can point to some real successes. Henrietta Street is probably the jewel in the crown. It is a model that can be promoted and exemplifies the best of what can be achieved in a tenement building.

I ask the witnesses to speak about the role and vision they have for the Heritage Council in north inner city Dublin. Specifically, I have in mind the Moore Street national monument site. It is hugely important as the birthplace of our Republic but has been sadly neglected for far too long. Funding has been made available, although funding is only part of the issue. The Heritage Council has a real vision and shared that with the advisory group. I would appreciate an update on the work being done with regard to Moore Street as well as any other issues or proposals the Heritage Council may have for Dublin's north inner city.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I thank the Senator for her question. The area she mentioned, Moore Street, is of great consequence to the Heritage Council and the heritage of Ireland and Dublin. One of the priorities for the Heritage Council and for me personally is to continue to collaborate with Dublin City Council, the other local authorities nationally and also the various agencies of State that have an interest in heritage. Obviously, the Moore Street area is part of a national monument and is a very important historical landscape. From my point of view, the Heritage Council will be available to help and support, in any way it can, development in that space. We appreciate very much the work that has already been undertaken by the Department and the advisory group in relation to Moore Street. If there are areas of activity to which the Heritage Council can contribute, we would be very happy to do so. I will take the opportunity to invite Ms Teehan to say a few words on that particular issue.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I thank the Senator for her question. It is a great pleasure to be here and I thank the committee for its very welcome invitation. As the Senator has said, we have had some discussions with the group involved in the development of Moore Street and encouraged that collaborative approach, as outlined in the Irish Heritage Trust report. That report identifies many of the significant challenges facing Moore Street and the attempts to resolve the issues involved in celebrating the very significant past that is the street, particularly 100 years ago, but equally as a trading street and part of our living capital city. As Dr. Moloney said, we will continue to collaborate with the National Museum of Ireland, the Heritage Trust and the advisory group to provide support in whatever way we can and we will encourage that in whatever way possible.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is good to have an opportunity to engage with the Heritage Council again. I have done so as part of the Moore Street advisory committee but also when I was Chairman for a brief time in the previous Dáil of the then Joint Committee on Arts, Culture and Heritage. Culture gets shifted around a little bit. We had a very good engagement with the Heritage Council and at the time, I asked about the role of the council in local museums and about online collections. At that stage, we did not predict the pandemic and could not have known how vital online collections and online engagement with the public would become. While there were plans forthcoming, funding was not yet in place because the council was depending on the Government in that regard. What is the position with regard to those plans?

Is there a larger demand from local museums or heritage centres to profile the material they hold or their areas online? Is there greater collaboration between the Heritage Council and the local museum?

On Fáilte Ireland, we have all had the staycations. Hopefully, many of us have benefited from some of the offerings that heritage councils and local authorities have put forward in recent years. I have been an advocate for years and I have enjoyed my travels and wanders around Ireland. However, much more can be done. What does the Heritage Council see as the additional steps that can be taken? The big elephant in the room is always funding. What are the immediate practicalities?

The other questions I had were about Moore Street. With each given day, there seem to be new finds and new bits and pieces that we were not aware of, although we had some type of knowledge in advance, for planning applications. There is a live planning application for Moore Street and I have made own views on that clear. The context of buildings should be taken into account. Moore Street is a battlefield site. We could end up like the Alamo, where the building is secured, but if we build high rises all around it, we lose the context of that historical building. We have seen that with some of the other proposals around the city. Merchant's Arch is one example. If we build a high-rise hotel on top of Merchant's Arch, we then lose the context of the building. There are other buildings that have been destroyed. There seems to be a phase whereby we are destroying the buildings that are part of our living heritage. When I was growing up, I remember going on the Wood Quay marches. I remember Archer’s Garage being knocked down. It was thankfully rebuilt, although the damage was done. Another example is Frescati House. When I was very young I was involved in trying to secure it for the future. We now have O'Rahilly house, which is to be destroyed. We will see what comes of that court case.

My other question is on local heritage officers. I remember at the time there was much discussion trying to ensure that every local authority had the local heritage officer. Is that working? Is it not working? Who is funding it? Should the council, rather than the Heritage Council, co-ordinate them rather than having to fund them? That is enough for now.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I thank the Deputy. I will start on the museums. I will do a brief introduction and I will answer the questions insofar as I can. I will then invite Ms Teehan to respond. Museums have been a core part of the work of the Heritage Council for as long as I have been aware of the operations of the Heritage Council. I will comment on the work of the museums standards programme for Ireland, MSPI, which the Heritage Council operates. There are now 59 museums nationally, ranging in size from small, local community museums, to some of our larger cultural institutions, that are participating in the museum standards programme. That programme has been a wonderful success in professionalising the service, as well as ensuring that we guarantee the protection of the collections going forward. The Heritage Council is ambitious to continue to be involved in this area and to expand its role. Certainly, the programme supports many people in the museums sector. Some of our ambitions for the future include the digitisation of some of our museum pieces, so that they can be accessed both nationally and internationally, and so that we can ensure that we are protecting the heritage of Ireland in our museums going forward. We will ensure that the training is available for people working in that particular sector also. That is where we add particular value.

The Deputy mentioned Fáilte Ireland. Fáilte Ireland is a key body with which we collaborate on an ongoing basis. Obviously, we are fortunate on the board of the Heritage Council to have a representative from the EPIC Irish Emigration Museum, one of the key national museums in the country. He brings wonderful expertise and learning to the role and to the work of the Heritage Council. His name is Dr. J. Patrick Greene and we are happy to have him with us. There is always more that can be done, as the Deputy says. Our ambition going into 2022, which is reflected in our budget for 2022, is to support additional funding for the museums sector. I will hand over to Ms Teehan.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I thank the Deputy. It is nice to see him again. Specifically dealing with his query on museums, as Ms Moloney has said, in 2022 we will be setting up a specific grants scheme that is aimed at supporting museum curators, archivists and conservation officers in local authorities. This is because we are aware of the points that the Deputy raised. It is difficult for those who work in sometimes very small museums across the country to access funding. Our community heritage grant scheme has been successful in securing the protection of museum objects. For example, I was looking at some of the grants. In the past few days we awarded just €3,084, which is nothing. That grant is responsible for the conservation of a Torah. It is an important Jewish manuscript that had been rescued from the Holocaust. That Torah belongs to the Jewish congregation in Dublin. This small funding can help communities. We are aware of the vulnerability of collections across the country. We want to support them and we want to invest in them, as Ms Moloney says, in the training of the museum curators, archivists and conservation officers, as well as by giving funding specifically aimed towards that.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

Regarding the Moore Street situation, I understand where the Deputy is coming from. As he has identified, a planning application is currently active. The Heritage Council does on occasion engage with the planning process. While the Heritage Council’s resources are meagre, we try to make the best value out of our resources by contributing to the forward planning processes. In particular instances, we will make observations on individual planning applications.

I will move on to talk about the local heritage officers. I mentioned in my opening statement that I was involved in the appointment of the first heritage officers nationally, in Galway city. It has been one of the great successes, because it has contributed greatly to the work of local authorities by bringing in that additional expertise. We have recently reviewed the heritage officer programme. I am happy to say that there is a heritage officer now in place in every local authority. That is a major step forward for us. It helps the Heritage Council to reach into every community in Ireland. It helps the communities by having that fantastic resource of skilled individuals available to them. It helps the community to identify their precise priorities through the development of local heritage plans and, indeed, through the engagement with local heritage fora. Like everything else, there are always opportunities for review and improvement. The Heritage Council recently carried out a review of the heritage officer programme in association with the County and City Management Association, CCMA. There are a few recommendations, which we will be moving forward to implement in the new year, around continuing to strengthen the role of heritage officer within, and embed it further within, the local government structures, to ensure that the role is embedded throughout the local authority, and to re-engage with the heritage fora and heritage plan. I appreciate that has been a challenge during Covid-19, but perhaps it is time to revisit that. We also provide support to our cadre of heritage officers with continued support and training in the new areas of expertise that are continuing to emerge in the heritage field.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

As the Chairman said, we have 31 heritage officers throughout the country and tomorrow we are launching the publication of the review of this hugely successful programme. We will continue to support the payment of salaries to heritage officers and provide an annual budget to them. We are increasing that budget annually because the delivery on the ground is so significant. Heritage officers are also central to the delivery of National Heritage Week, which has been hugely successful during the Covid pandemic. We transferred it to an online platform and it has been very good for communities. It has helped to sustain activity and a sense of connectivity and well-being. The programme probably needs additional support, especially in the larger local authorities where heritage officers are very busy. We will look to scale that as appropriate. It is a wonderful programme. We are very proud of it and the heritage officers are a great group of people.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I totally agree. My previous experience was that the council's heritage office staff did an outstanding amount of work and output from the limited resources available to them.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Dr. Moloney and Ms Teehan to the committee. They both have fantastic jobs; I would love either of them. Heritage is a great thing. I acknowledge Dr. Moloney's vast experience of local government. I have come across her in many guises. Sometimes she has not seen me watching her, but at other times we have encountered each other and chatted. She has an amazing track record; it is important that I share that with the committee. I spoke to staff on a number of councils in County Galway who speak very highly of her, as do members of the County and City Management Association. The committee knows her from National Oversight and Audit Commission; I do not see that on her CV but she came before us previously. She is steeped in local government, which is an important facet in how we address heritage because it overlays so much, which is very important. I also wish Ms Teehan every success.

The Heritage Council is a wonderful organisation. Somehow people think it is some sort of elitist group and do not quite understand its governance. There is a little work to be done in explaining the governance of the Heritage Council and that it is there to help and support people. If I was to ask the representatives to take away anything from today's proceedings, it would be that I would like to see an overarching and very much stronger policy emerge from the Heritage Council. As has been said already, there are 31 heritage officers in local authorities. We may not have the full number of conservation officers, although their roles overlap with those of heritage officers and arts officers. One of the great things is that we have built heritage and national heritage. I am particularly interested in environmental heritage and heritage gardens. I studied horticulture and worked in the National Botanic Gardens in Dublin, in addition to those in London, Canada and Greece. I have a major interest in travelling and seeing heritage gardens. One of the first things I look at everywhere I go are unique heritage buildings, especially heritage gardens. It is a real thing in terms of the overlap with Fáilte Ireland. That is important.

We have local authority staff but they are not Heritage Council staff. I imagine that now that transition funding has gone straight over, heritage officers are fully funded by local authorities and they come under pressure there. They work closely with the planning authorities. We know that each of the authorities have their city and county development plans. My council unanimously supported me on both buildings I suggested being listed as protected structures, but I had great difficulty in convincing and encountered resistance from the establishment, that is, the council executive. There was a view that if we are pushing for protected structures we are in some way dulling down the potential for development when we can have both. That is something we need to get across.

It is very important that we look at the Heritage Council plan. Its corporate plan finishes this year. I went online before this meeting to see details of the next plan. We know about Heritage Ireland 2030, which is important and exciting, and that there is substantial public engagement, which says much about the organisation and that is great. We also know that there is a summary of the Heritage Council's two public consultations and that it had a specific set of consultations with professional people or, shall we say, people directly involved in the heritage area. I acknowledge that was a very clever move on the council's part because it included different disciplines, expertise and, perhaps, views. It is important that we do not have groupthink but engagement at all levels on heritage.

I would now like a summary of the focus engagement. Where are we going with it? The Heritage Council had a very substantial consultation that I presume it analysed and prioritised in sets of subject matter so there are themes, specific proposals, ideas and actions, but following on from proposals and actions there are timelines. I would like to hear about those - not necessarily today if there is not enough time - and I ask the representatives to send the committee a summary of the issues on which people engaged because that is what we want to hear about. What is the next stage of the plan?

I acknowledge the important work of An Taisce of which I have been a member for years. It has a struggling membership with an older age profile. People do not have the same time, they are working, the dynamics of their lives have very much changed in the past few years and, therefore, this sector has relied heavily on voluntary contributions, workers and expertise. We will have to up it a gear and this is where the Heritage Council has a role. It should ultimately be a referring group. We should be able to refer to it, along with local authorities. I would like to see more cross-engagement in the sector. I wish the Heritage Council well. It is an exciting time for both its representatives and I wish them the very best of luck.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I thank the Senator for his kind words. Indeed, our paths have crossed before. His point on public understanding of what the Heritage Council does is certainly very well made. We are there to help and support people who, like us, are passionate about heritage. It is an ask from us of the committee to give us the exposure so that we can spread that news. We are building our profile in order that people understand that we are here to help and support them through our very broad remit and areas of activity, which include grants programmes and advisory programmes.

The Senator mentioned the area of policy. We input into policy on an ongoing basis. At very many meetings of the Heritage Council we make submissions to developments by other agencies in the heritage field and feed in our views on how they can strengthen and advance their activities in the policy area.

To clarify, funding for the heritage officer programme is still part funded by the Heritage Council. From our perspective, it is very important that that continues and will be recognised as a very positive contribution in the recent review of the heritage officer programme. We not only help in the financial area with salaries but also by supporting the network of local authority heritage officers and ensuring that we have regard to and support their training needs.

On Heritage Ireland, the Heritage Council assisted the Department in doing quite a lot of work in the consultation area the Senator referred to. We have a direct line of sight to the various stakeholders and it was certainly a very interesting consultation exercise. Quite a few key themes emerged from it. I will ask Ms Teehan to take us through some of them.

We have just commenced work on the preparation of our strategic plan for 2022 to 2027 and have had some initial discussions. We will be very happy to share the plan with the committee when it is completed.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

To answer the Senator's question on the consultation process, as he said, we engaged with the general public, those working in the heritage sector and the academic community. There were a couple of strands to our work in that regard.

I will address his more general comments related to areas around communication and the number of different bodies involved in heritage.

There is a huge ecosystem out there in this regard and it is difficult for individuals and communities to know who does what. Therefore, there must be a mapping of this information and that need was identified as a key issue.

The Senator mentioned the role of young people. Getting them engaged with heritage was a key theme that ran through all the consultations, but particularly those involving communities. It is one area where we like to think that we have had an impact. Our community grants scheme delivers significant results on the ground for communities. They are small grants, but they help to bring people together to work for a common objective, be that the clearing of a graveyard, restoring a specialised piece of fabric or developing interpretive panels in towns such as Killmallock and other towns around the country. Those grants are a focal point for communities. One of our aims involves growing that aspect, bringing communities together and developing best practice for heritage and giving advice and leadership in that regard.

As my chairperson identified, we are involved in the area of technology in supporting community groups and individuals in the application of technology in heritage practice and knowledge sharing and access to heritage professionals. That is something communities want. They want to work in heritage, but they also wish to ensure that they are doing the right thing and not damaging archaeological sites and that they are observing best practice in graveyards, for example. Communities wish to ensure they are doing something good that will last forever. In addition, communities and the public are looking for an infrastructure of heritage networks. There is An Taisce and the big NGOs, but smaller groups are active on the ground as well. Those could include small groups interested in their local bogs, as well organisations in inner city Dublin concerned with the oral history of Stoneybatter and similar places. Therefore, there is a wide range of groups. Our role is to bring them together and to put in place some infrastructure to support them. We must also endeavour to work across Departments, because to the public we are siloed. The Heritage Council must work with elected representatives and civil servants to cut through some of the bureaucracy and red tape to make it easy for people.

Those are some of the key issues that arose in the consultations with the public. I should also not forget to mention the role of local authorities and local authority heritage officers, the funding we give through the local authority heritage officers programme to local authorities and the leadership those heritage officers provide on the ground. It is an important facet of what we do. It is mentioned in the programme for Government that we should support and grow that scheme and we are happy to do that. Equally, we are exploring growing the range of expertise available in local authorities in the context of biodiversity officers. I mentioned the other professionals concerned in this context.

Returning to the heritage sector, the diversity of Ireland, the growing and changing face of modern Ireland and the identity of Ireland must be protected. It must be inclusive. Heritage must include all the members of society and all people, no matter where they are from, or their race, creed or colour. That aspect must be central to the policies and values underpinning Heritage Ireland. The heritage sector must speak with one voice and we must be holistic in our approach. That is something that happens in all sectors. Our heritage remit includes the natural, built and cultural sectors, and we span everything from swans to ponds, buildings, archives, trees and biodiversity. Represented on the ground, then, are all sorts of experts and people with brilliant experience. However, we must speak with one voice in this forum, at Government level and to our communities to serve them more coherently than we are. We need a sound infrastructure for heritage management. We are beginning to grow that facet at local authority level, but we must work more comprehensively with the NGO sector. We are doing that a bit already. We have set up a new grant scheme for the NGO sector for those organisations that cannot get funding for themselves. That undertaking was established last year as part of our Covid-19 response program. It has been hugely successful and it is bringing people together to speak together.

Local authorities are a crucial factor in leadership for heritage. Those in large urban areas, such as in Dublin, where there can be disparate interests, need to have an identifiable leader. The sector looks to the local authorities for leadership, and that is particularly the case in rural areas, which have been hollowed out because of the impact of Covid-19, Brexit and other economic problems. In many cases, small towns and villages in many places are without souls and their identity and leadership must come through exploring the heritage through their local authorities.

Another issue we have concerns sustained funding. We operate in accordance with annual funding streams, but for some heritage projects, though, we require funding over several years and the sectors look to us to provide them with funding for several years. I refer to large infrastructure projects, such as the restoration of walled towns and the restoration of historic railings. Keeping that sense of the public realm space being in good order requires sustained funding, which we cannot currently guarantee. That is a problem we must resolve.

Our colleagues in the sector used a lovely phrase: “Daisies grow on both sides of the Border”. Heritage does not stop on the Border and birds fly across the whole landmass and seas. We must work more closely with our colleagues on the other side of the Border. We already do so and we have strong relationships with our colleagues in Northern Ireland, but we must examine having more comprehensive joint programmes with colleagues not only in Northern Ireland but also in Europe.

That is a summary of those key points raised during the consultation. As Dr. Moloney said, this document has been co-ordinated by the Department. I understand that it is at an advanced stage of development and that it will, hopefully, be launched in early 2022.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be helpful for us if the issues raised by Ms Teehan were to be sent to the committee. I picked up on some of the comments, including the reference to cutting through the red tape. I wonder how we as Oireachtas Members can assist in that context. The required funding and support exist in this context, so we wish to make it as easy as possible for people to engage with the Heritage Council and for the local authority heritage officers to do their work. The funding over several years aspect is also important in all regards when trying to plan for the longer term. I also learned something else from that interaction, because I did not realise that Senator Boyhan had such experience in heritage gardens over the years. That would explain his great championing of heritage at all times on this committee. It is interesting information and I was not aware of it. I call Deputy Duffy.

Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate Dr. Moloney on her new position. I thank her for her briefing, and Ms Teehan as well. The information we have been given so far has been great. I have a great passion for heritage, similar to that of Senator Boyhan and others on the committee. My background is in architecture and I have had the privilege of spending most of my career working with protected structures. My questions, then, come from an architectural background and concern the environment in that regard.

If we are serious about climate neutrality and sustainability, then we must transform and strengthen the policies and regulations around buildings throughout the procurement process. A cradle-to-cradle approach must be adopted, and that must begin with life-cycle carbon reporting at the application stage and the introduction of carbon limits, as used in other European jurisdictions, such as Denmark and the Netherlands. Critical to this undertaking is the introduction of life-cycle assessments, which would allow us to measure the level of embodied carbon and to introduce a national environmental product declaration database to standardise the way in which we provide data about the environmental impacts of construction materials.

We require a clear policy plan on how we can reduce energy emissions in our built environment. As I understand it, that is the aim of the national policy on architecture, NPA, which has yet to be published. In Places for People: Ireland's National Policy on Architecture from 2020, which emerged following public consultation on the NPA, it was stated that the State requires a build environment research platform that will have continuous feedback to inform high-quality design and construction. I have three questions related to that context. Will the final NPA policy document contain a definite proposal for a national built environment research body?

What form is that likely to take? When can we expect the NPA to be published? When can we expect Ireland to introduce the aforementioned frameworks and regulations necessary for carbon reduction in our built environment? What co-ordination currently exists between the Heritage Council, Department of heritage, Department of planning and Department of environment on these targets?

Dr. Martina Moloney:

The points the Deputy raises are relevant to the work the Heritage Council is involved in at the moment. An area we have identified as key in the new strategic plan is that of climate adaptation and how that relates to heritage. A number of the questions the Deputy raised in respect of embodied carbon, life cycle, the best building being the one that is there already and not going back to square one are ones we hope to address in the context of our new strategic plan to see where the Heritage Council can add value because that is what we are here to do. We have done work in that space already by identifying good projects where climate action initiatives by owners have managed to address issues around emissions and the impact of building work on climate.

There is quite a lot of work for us to do there. It is an area we will need to do a lot of research in. We do not necessarily have expertise on climate adaptation internally, nor is it that generally available. We discussed that matter of work over lunch today, saying that we need to bring in additional expertise to support the council.

I will pass the questions around the national policy on architecture to Ms Teehan.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I thank the Deputy for his questions. We have been engaging with the Department of heritage, which is responsible for the delivery of that policy. The architecture officer has been a member of the group responsible for the development of the policy.

On the date of issue and the other question the Deputy posed, I am afraid I do not have that information because we are not part of the delivery of the policy. We have been part of the consultation for its development. We are proposing and have recommended that a comprehensive life-cycle approach to the construction and management of new and existing buildings be adopted. I understand that is included.

As Ms Moloney said, this is an area where we need to upskill ourselves. Our knowledge is good. We agree with the view that the most sustainable building is the one that exists. We direct funding towards the owners of buildings to support them in the protection of those buildings and wish to continue to do so. It is a difficult area for us because it is sometimes hard for agencies to support private owners in the management of their properties, but we are supportive of that through our historic towns initiatives and other grant schemes. We look forward in our strategic plan to developing more work in this area and continuing to work with the Department to ensure that policy applies widely to historic buildings as much as new buildings.

Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is mainly orchestrating it and will be architect of it.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

It is the built heritage section of the Department.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for coming in and congratulate Dr. Moloney on taking up the role. I will ask about the priority in terms of support for community heritage initiatives. I have two aspects of that.

The Chair spoke about the importance of heritage in terms of community and sense of place and how, when it is lost, it can be difficult to get back. One area in which this can be seen is naming. I have seen this done well and badly with new housing developments, indeed entire new communities. Sometimes they are named by the developer in a bland, generic way that has no attachment to the area. Sometimes they are named with regard to the name or history of the local area and that connection is included in the name from the start. That is valuable. When you grow up in an area, you hear all these names and have no idea what they mean. Over the years, you ask questions and find out the history and heritage, which sparks interest in that. That is important in giving a sense of place and connect to communities and giving communities the sense that there was a history before the new development came along.

I realised in more recent years that suburbs of Dublin that I just saw as suburbs were originally towns and villages, with all the history that goes with that. Naming is important but it is done sporadically throughout the country. The point about the 31 local authorities now having heritage officers is important. Is there something the Heritage Council can do in terms of issue guidelines or best practice to try to ensure through the local authorities and heritage officers that naming is done well everywhere? It is a simple thing but there is huge value to be added by doing that.

Every area has built and natural heritage but some are much better at protecting, resourcing or developing that than others. Is there something the Heritage Council can do in terms of priorities and support to give extra prioritisation to communities that may be disadvantaged and have less human capital? Even local community heritage groups or initiatives are often seen in more advantaged areas and less frequently in disadvantaged areas, though there are exceptions to that.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I am particularly passionate about community heritage. I have seen the value it brings from the bottom up in building community, sense of place and pride of place. The suggestion the Deputy made around naming is one we will take away with us. I have seen it working - "sporadically" is a good word for it - in different parts of the country. Some people have naming committees in place and some insist the names are in Irish and related to the heritage and history of the area. That will be one of our takeaways from today.

An initiative I have been involved in in a voluntary capacity is the Burrenbeo Trust, which identifies place-based learning as its key priority. It is embedded in the local area and does a lot of good programmes in the national and secondary schools in its area, built around what is in the curtilage of the catchment area of the school. I would like the Heritage Council to build on that. Maybe we could spread that into wider currency across the country.

The same organisation has done quite a lot in working with voluntary groups - in Tidy Towns, for instance - to encourage them to develop their local heritage plans. That might address the Deputy's second point somewhat around the participation and resourcing of communities who might not be as able to access or understand the opportunities funded and supported by the Heritage Council to encourage communities to learn from and help one another along the way. I envisage we will continue to resource that area.

A priority area identified for the new heritage plan is that of inclusion. We want to ensure heritage belongs to everybody and that new communities or people who feel excluded for other reasons are recognised as being important. Some projects in national heritage week 2021 in the area of inclusion were heartening exemplars of best practice that we hope to build on and that will inspire others.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I share the Deputy's interest in placenames or logainmneacha. We have funded some rural-based projects which record field names. I agree that there is an anonymisation of our urban centres in particular and a loss of placenames. We would be happy to take it up in the future to ensure there is retention of the sense of place.

For community-based heritage, the leadership that I mentioned earlier is key. The role that local authorities play in providing leadership is very helpful. Community groups are mainly peopled by volunteers. We get some great people. We get community groups that go through ups and downs, for a variety of reasons, but they need support - financial support from us and support and leadership from their communities. Ms Moloney and I saw an excellent example of community leadership last week in County Offaly, where the Offaly Archives were opened and they are actually contracting out a service to the local authority. There is an excellent history society which is developing a service of local value. That is a very important service. There are some very good examples of community practice across Ireland and our community fund seeks to support them. Communities need leadership and support.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Teehan makes some good points. On the naming of estates and locations, when I was in Wicklow, the municipal district councillors had an input into that, so it might be something for that stage. That has often fed back and perhaps suggested a different name with a historical link. It is a good point.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for attending. Ballingarry is the area where I live and between two of the villages close to where I live, there is a place called Knockfierna. Its name means “hill of truth”, so if the Chairman wonders why I always tell the truth, it is because I live on the hill of truth. I love heritage and I love everything to do with our heritage. I have been in construction all my life. In 2018, we rebuilt the old oifig an phoist in Kilmallock, which is now the new credit union. It was a fantastic project. It went on longer than was anticipated but the building needed the care to bring it back into production. Only for the credit union getting that building at the time, it could not have stayed open during Covid. It gave the credit union accessibility to a wide area due to the mailing room and it allowed the staff to be there. It was brilliant to see that.

In Limerick, we have conservation officers like Tom Cassidy and Sarah McCutcheon but the resources are not there for them. I meet with Mr. Cassidy on a regular basis on different projects. If we have to rebuild our old stock, they must have the supports they need. If somebody falls ill in their job, there is no one there to take on the project, so it sits still and does not go forward.

I love old buildings and I want to protect them but I have a common sense side to me as well. I look at some places that are falling down. The cost of rebuilding certain places is not worth it, in particular domestic homes. I am talking about streetscapes in towns and villages. What I would like to see happening for buildings that have gone so far, and where we want to bring a new generation into the towns and also get eco-friendly houses which are better for the environment, is for us to keep the front façades of buildings and the old roof structures. If they need to be made more modern behind that, let it happen. In the same way that there can be the uneconomical repair of a car, there can be the uneconomical repair of a building. To do that would still keep the front façade on the street. If the rest of the house is not worth protecting, we could just keep the front. At the same time, I believe our iconic buildings need to be protected.

I have seen places where people went for insurance on their domestic house and they could not insurance on the front room, inside the front door, because it had a timber lath ceiling. The advice was that they had to remove the timber lath ceiling, fireproof it and put it back in place. The insurance company would not insure the front part of the building but as the next room was a new extension on the rear of the house, it would insure that. We have to try to get rid of that. That is what I mean by uneconomical repairs.

I am involved in vintage clubs to celebrate the heritage we have through vintage machinery, going back from modern machinery to the horse. I do a lot of charity runs to raise money for different charities. I have visited many graveyards, especially in November, and I see that many are in need of funding in order to protect them. Again, even if the funding was there, we need the proper groups that will take it on and have respect within the graveyards. I have a list of graveyards where, for ten or 12 years, people cannot go in to visit their loved ones because they are in dread of a protected structure within the graveyard that has been fenced off by a metal fence and there is no funding to repair it. That is very hard. That is as hard as the situation during Covid where people cannot visit their families. They might want to sit down beside the grave and have a chat, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, this is preventing people from getting to the graveyards. That is wrong.

I am 100% for biodiversity. I am 100% for replacing our old stock and also for modernising the old stock, with the old meeting the new. That is great and it brings people into this. To get the youth involved in heritage, we have to bring it to their level. The way to bring it to the level of young people and to make it interesting for them is to show them. I am talking about re-enactments at different places in order to make history fun and young people learn about their heritage. If we showed a child today a phone which is not that old but has the dial on it, they would look at it and ask, “What is this?”, and they would wonder why they cannot press it. Let us bring them back to things like the phone where people twisted a handle to ring the exchange. We need to bring them in and give this to them through fun. We can drop a seed and, in a year or two, they may come back and look for more fun. In that way, we teach them about our heritage because they consider it so backwards that it is enjoyable for them to watch, but they also learn. To me, that is a way forward. When the greenway was opened in Limerick recently, we saw the replacement of the houses along the greenway. It was an outstanding example of what can be done if we have the right people doing the right work.

I go around a lot of buildings and people ask me how I can help. The first thing I see is the dread on their faces when they hear the word “listed” and they think they will have to sell the whole place to get the work done. I was in a premises recently where the roof has been off since the 1950s due to the rates. It is a fabulous, iconic building. I have been looking outside of this country to get investors in to try to bring back buildings like this in certain areas. They are afraid because every time they went about doing it, there was a litany of problems in front of them that they had to deal with, and the investors ran for the hills. We have come to a new approach that I am currently looking at for people with iconic buildings so that, for investigation purposes, somebody can go in and clean around the building, make a full investigation into what needs to be done to the building and mark all the stones as they are. We can then take that into account and get proper costings for the repair of the building to make it as close as can be to the original by doing minor works to it, so we can then go to investors. That can be done under section 57. We welcome people coming in to do it but, again, people who have respect for the building, who can be on a list and who can go in and respectfully take on these buildings. As a country, if the Government or the Heritage Council cannot support this, we can bring in investors from outside the country who will want to do this and who might want to reopen and let the public back in to see such buildings.

What I want from today is the name of a contact person to go to in order to help me and guide me, and to cut through the red tape so I can help replace many of the iconic buildings, structures, fences and walls, and so we can all work together. I want us to move forward without having a wall put in front of us. If the Heritage Council comes up with something, I want to be able to see if that can be simplified so we can all move forward and get more buildings protected. That is what I want from today. I want a direct contact from the Heritage Council.

I would like the witnesses to come and see one or two of the buildings I have in mind. I can guarantee that we will get investors in there. We have Adare and Croom. There are many fantastic buildings in Kilmallock, Askeaton, where some date from the 14th century, and other places, but only one or two of them are open to the public. We need all of them to be opened up. There are buildings that are mind-blowing for the next generation. I ask the witnesses to open up a line communication with me such that we can all work together and move forward.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

The Deputy's passion for heritage is very obvious from the inputs he has had. His pragmatic background in construction enables him to understand the challenges in this area. There is no doubt but that there are costs associated with rebuilding some old properties in towns and villages. The Government's new policy, Town Centre First, will hopefully improve the economic argument in that space. The Heritage Council has been very active in the collaborative town centre health checks to see what needs to happen in towns to try to ensure they are returned to being vibrant places. There is no doubt that this can be a challenging area. As set out in an earlier interaction, from a climate action perspective it is better to rehabilitate and refurbish existing buildings rather than build from the new.

The Deputy's comments with regard to graveyards were good. Under the heritage officers programme, we fund initiatives for the rehabilitation of graveyards where there is active community engagement with it. That goes back to the point Ms Teehan raised around the local leadership. We are very happy to work with people who will work with us. The Deputy's comments on youth and heritage were well made and interesting. We all need to ensure that our love of heritage is transmitted to the next generation.

On the specifics of providing the Deputy with a contact, he can rest assured that the Heritage Council will be in touch with him directly to see what areas of work we might potentially be able to collaborate on. It was my personal privilege, accompanied by Ms Teehan, to visit Kilmallock a couple of years ago for the Irish Walled Towns Network annual conference, where we saw the wonderful work that had been done there by Sarah McCutcheon and that group in developing and rehabilitating the walls. It goes to show what can be achieved over time where you have committed people in place. Ms Teehan might want to add to that.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

As the chairperson designate stated, we have done a lot of work with Kilmallock and with Sarah McCutcheon and the Irish Walled Towns Network. I visited Limerick last September, where I met with the heritage officers of the city and county, Ms McCutcheon, other people working in heritage, the director of services and the Mayor of Limerick. We had a very good engagement around their new county development plan. I know Knockfierna. The Deputy might not be aware that I lived in Limerick and worked at the Hunt Museum for six years. It is a bit of a second home. I know the Knockfierna and Lough Gur sites well. It is a beautiful part of the country. We will be happy to visit the Deputy there, at any time.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have some questions for the witnesses. Senator Boyhan spoke about the amount of work our heritage officers and the Heritage Council do and the number of different aspects of heritage in which they are involved. I thought I knew about the work of the Heritage Council from my work as a councillor over the years. In advance of this meeting I visited the council's website and I came across a number of projects and other works that it is doing. I am fairly sure that the majority of people do not know about all of the work that is being done by the Heritage Council. I did not know about it. I probably should have known about it. The witnesses have heard the interest members have in heritage and in the importance of it. How do we engage more with people? How do we pull more people into this space? How do we create more interest, appreciation and understanding, as well as support, all of those aspects of heritage? Will the council's next strategy and plan identify that?

Dr. Martina Moloney:

The area of communications is one that is a constant challenge for us because the landscape of heritage is so complex and there are so many organisations involved in it. To make sure that we have our voice heard, we very much appreciate the opportunity to be here today. A key part of the new strategic plan will be in respect of communications. We are very good at communicating when we make the contact, when that person discovers that we are there and the quality of the work that we produce. The communications piece is done through initiatives such as national heritage week, which is one of the biggest cultural events in the country and embraces a huge number of people. It involves a massive number of people as well. My sense is that communications will be something that we will continue to work on. We would welcome the opportunity to use this particular forum to showcase the type of work we do on an ongoing basis. There are many people working diligently in heritage, many of them in a voluntary capacity. It is important their work is acknowledged as well.

We recently have done some work on the development of a communications plan for the Heritage Council. I will ask Ms Teehan to comment specifically on that.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

We are actively recruiting a head of communications and public affairs, which is very good and very welcome. As identified by the Chairman, communication is an issue for us. There is an issue in terms of our day-to-day communications as a public body, but there is an issue at a higher level too in regard to the promotion and acknowledgement of the importance of heritage nationally. We have a role to play in ensuring that the appreciation of heritage is acknowledged. As mentioned by Deputy O'Donoghue, there are issues around funding and sustainability for projects on the ground. We have been fortunate in that our funding has been increased by over 40% in the past two years. We are really grateful for that.

There is a major job of work to be done. There is work to be done on landscapes, environments, buildings and in our cultural heritage, some of which will require significant investment and funding. Heritage Ireland 2030 will identify some of the key issues which require resolution. The committee's invitation for us to appear here today to talk about heritage demonstrates the value that it and the Houses of the Oireachtas place on heritage. That is important. It sends a signal to the sector that our elected representatives value our work and their work, which is much more significant.

We need to continue this dialogue. We need to have all of the voices represented through the Heritage Council, the heritage officer network and the network of other heritage professionals and to support them more than has been the case in the past in all its manifestations.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The heritage area has been transferred to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, that is, back to the Custom House. It is now directly related to local government, which is a positive move because there is so much interaction at local government level through planning or the heritage officers. Heritage ranges from the natural heritage to the cultural heritage to the built heritage. Getting the information our there with regard to the level and type of work being done by the council is a challenge. There are many people with whom Deputies engage through their work who will tell us they have no idea what we do. Getting the message out is a constant challenge. I am particularly interested in hearing how the town centre collaborative health checks feed into the Town Centre First policy objectives. I was involved in the town centre health check in my town. I ask the witnesses to comment on whether the plan is to roll out this initiative nationally to develop that baseline of information.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

It has been a very interesting area of work. The collaborative town centre health check and has been rolled out in quite a number of towns nationally at this stage. It has given everybody an opportunity to take stock of their place. I would claim that it has informed, to some extent, the Town Centre First policy that we are waiting for the Department to produce. The Heritage Council is anxious to support the Department in any way it can in regard to the roll-out of that policy.

With regard to the placing of responsibility for heritage within the Department in charge of local government, we are very comfortable bedfellows. We are very happy to be in a place where we can collaborate in areas such as planning. As the Heritage Council is a prescribed body under the planning legislation, we fit very neatly into the Department responsible for planning. Heritage, however, is not limited to one Department. That is one of the areas we need to work harder on. Perhaps with the support of the committee, we can work harder on engaging other bodies. For instance, we would be very interested in dealing with the Department dealing with climate action. We have good relations with most Departments. There are still areas where we can assist further on a cross-governmental basis. That is a priority for us going into the next phase.

Ms Teehan might comment on the Town Centre First policy.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

The collaborative town centre health check programme is a very imaginative, collaborative programme that has been very successful. There is a very long waiting list of towns that wish to participate in it. We do not have the means or capacity to serve the needs of all those on the waiting list. I understand that the Town Centre First policy will be published soon and that it is all but complete. I also understand that the collaborative town centre programme has informed that policy very much in its approach. As our chairperson has said, the Heritage Council is very anxious to support the Department in its rolling out of that policy and to transfer the knowledge we have acquired and the lessons we have learned to help with its delivery. The programme is very successful and engages many people on the ground. That is required for success.

As the chairperson said, we are very comfortable in the new Department. It has been very helpful to have closeness with civil servants and other agencies that work in the same area as ourselves. However, we need to work across Departments, particularly the Department responsible for climate action. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is another we must work with. We share many common goals. We work very closely with a group called High Nature Value Farming, which is exploring new ways of farming that are less intensive and kinder to the farmland and that are very much reliant on traditional methods of farming. We would like to continue to support its work and engage more with colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, particularly at the time of the conclusion of the Common Agricultural Policy discussions.

Equally, we need to work with other public agencies and to not forget our former Department, which is now the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. We have contact with that Department. Particularly in the area of cultural heritage, we continue to engage with it. We welcome that engagement.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Town Centre First involves climate action also. It involves ensuring livability and walkability by seeking to regenerate parts of town centres to make it easier to live in the second and third storeys of buildings. It is not by lowering standards but by making the process easier to engage in. That is critical to it.

I was at the Irish Planning Institute conference last week. There was a really great presentation made by Fáilte Ireland. Reference was made to heritage and the planning system. To paraphrase the presenter, it is a question of having a planning system that concentrates on the public realm and heritage to create places where people want to live. Putting town centres and people first in towns creates places where people want to visit. I do not want to take up all the time because we will probably be talking about heritage all day.

Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I could actually ask questions all day as well. A simple one concerns how we compare with other EU countries in the context of funding and resources. Is our funding at the same level or well below? With regard to the Ballymount Castle gatehouse, the local authority did not really want to work on it but we managed to get it done through Ms Irenie McLoughlin and others. It was really difficult and painful to make it happen. Maybe I should not be mentioning Ms McLoughlin's name. Considering the workload she has to try to deal with all the protected structures, it seems like we do not care about heritage in this country. I mentioned the Ballymount Castle gatehouse to one person when canvassing and he said it was wasting money. There were not too many championing it, which depresses me. France and Spain, where I go quite a bit, are magicians with old buildings and can convert them into modern buildings, as Deputy O'Donoghue was saying. I do not know where we are at. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. To return to my question, do we get a pittance compared to other countries?

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I am afraid I will have to refer that to Ms Teehan.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I do not have the figures in front of me but, relatively speaking, the funding for built heritage and restoration, in particular, has traditionally been very low. It would be towards the end of the European scale. It is improving. Our funding has been improving. There are now good schemes in the built heritage section of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage that support buildings in public ownership, in particular. We have work to do to support the private owners of buildings and heritage. That is a matter that the chairperson and I have discussed. It is difficult for the private owners of heritage or historic buildings, including old buildings that are not protected, to manage them well in Ireland.

Francis Noel Duffy (Dublin South West, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We visited Westport House, where the cost of the work on just one annexe room was in the millions.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

Buildings of scale — grand buildings — are very expensive. There is great value to the investment in terms of economic regeneration and the protection of traditional building and craft skills. These skills are very valuable and sought-after. That is an area we intend to work on also. We have bursaries for traditional skills and are developing a partnership with the centre of excellence in Scotland to upskill people on traditional building and crafts skills. There are great careers in these. However, it is an area where we have not been to the fore in Europe. In that regard, I agree with the Deputy.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Having the old craft skills will be really important in respect of heritage buildings. Many of the trades — I am from a trades background — became very modularised and mechanised, so it is important to maintain the old skills.

While we are waiting for Senator Fitzpatrick to join the meeting, I will ask a question on the old post office buildings. In Kilkenny, there is a beautiful one. Is it still operational? In Wicklow town, there is a very similar county town post office design. Who owns those old post office buildings? How do we maintain them or modernise them to remind us of the importance of the post office network?

Is the Heritage Council working on any of those projects at present?

Ms Virginia Teehan:

The post offices are owned privately. They are owned by private individuals, who get a licence from An Post to operate post offices. I understand that is how they are owned, certainly the smaller ones. I am not sure if the larger ones, for example, in urban centres, such as the big general post offices, may be in a different category. I do not know the detail. We are not in any direct engagement with An Post but we have had preliminary correspondence and discussion with the banks, because this is another issue. Banks are also very fine, significant buildings, especially in country towns. Frequently, they represent the best of the craft and skill of the locality, for instance, the good limestone or granite, depending on where you are from. You will meet people whose fathers cut the stones or were involved on the site in designing them. We would like to see, at least, as Deputy O'Donoghue was talking about, that both the architectural heritage and the local history of these buildings are protected as they transition into new use. We would like to support the banks in having that dialogue. It is an issue when organisations transition into new phases of their world. Bord na Móna is another organisation that is transitioning and the Just Transition Fund is looking at the heritage of the boglands in the centre of Ireland. We are very supportive of those organisations, as appropriate and as they invite us to work with them.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Fitzpatrick is next.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be brief. I apologise I had to leave earlier.

I thank the Heritage Council for the work it is doing in all towns and villages. I specifically mention the north inner city in the capital city but I am conscious that it touches every town and village. It is important work. The support that they can give to individuals and community groups that on a voluntary basis take pride in our heritage, champion it and look to protect it and promote it cannot be overstated. It is of enormous value.

One novel initiative that should be promoted more is the "Know Your 5K" initiative from the Heritage Council. It speaks to individuals, families and communities to get to know their own local areas, their local heritage and then to promote it. I encourage the Heritage Council to promote that programme more widely. I appreciate there is a new head of communications commencing with the Heritage Council and I suggest that that person be encouraged to make that a priority.

Dr. Martina Moloney:

I am on board with the Senator. The "Know Your 5K" initiative was an initiative of the Heritage Council before I joined. It was one of the highlights of Covid. When we were all feeling challenged in other areas, it gave people a focus. I absolutely agree with the Senator that once you open your eyes to what is around you and develop that sense of pride, it will definitely encourage you to protect it. Raising awareness is something the Heritage Council achieved with that initiative. I will let Ms Teehan comment.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for mentioning that programme. It has been successful. I agree that we need to revitalise it. It has been running for some time. I hope that our new head of communications will be helpful in that regard.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Teehan.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Fitzpatrick. Deputy Duffy probably wants to come back in on that as well but I want to get in ahead of the Deputy.

The "Know Your 5K" involves walking routes around towns and villages that display buildings of architectural importance or buildings, the previous occupants of which may have been historical figures or in which events may have taken place in them. I attended one of the Heritage Council meetings in Kilkenny many years ago where somebody was developing this kind of heritage walking trail app. I do not know whether it was developed further. Do we have a standardised plaque system in this country? I see some plaques being put up that have an essay written on them and it is too much information. The plaque should be subtle, enough to attract attention and just enough to entice you to find out more about that building or the event that took place in it. Do we have a standardised heritage trail or a marking system similar to that in the UK?

Ms Virginia Teehan:

We do not have a standardised system. The interpretation of heritage can be a bit disparate. Different groups are interpreting sites. It may be connected to whoever is responsible - the OPW, a local authority or a community group. It is something that we could do. We could look at developing standard guidelines. I am from a museum background. When you train in curatorship, you spend classes talking about the length of captions, the size of fonts and all of this sort of training which helps interpret objects. The interpretation of places is important.

Technology is really helpful. Apps are very valuable. With "Know Your 5K", we developed during Covid an online system where people uploaded significant heritage features or just what they felt was important about their 5 km onto a website, and that was expressed as a map of Ireland and people could clink on different sites. It was popular. We are looking at advancing that to having it on an app. Obviously, it is much better if people have it when they are walking around on their phone. It makes sense.

One of our key projects is the National Biodiversity Data Centre. It is excellent at translating its work into digital form. It has numerous apps for recording species and plants and monitoring butterflies and plant forms. It is successful. We would like to transfer much of that use of technology more generally into heritage. However, to answer the Chairman's point, there is a piece of work to be done on guidelines for standardisation of plaques.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be helpful. It is something I would be supportive of. It is not only for a tourist or a visitor to a town. People who live in a town can sometimes become blind to the heritage in it because they are so used to it. You become used to a certain piece of scenery because you see it, and if you have been away for a while and you come back, you kind of get that "Wow" feeling again. When you are walking around your own town or village or your own local area, to see those little plaques on the wall to remind you of a previous generation, previous events and how your town evolved over the years is important to civic pride and an appreciation of heritage. I was going to ask about the national biodiversity database but Ms Teehan has covered that.

My last question is on the planning system. Where we often see buildings of architectural significance and even protected structures damaged, sometimes to a minor degree in terms of the work that is done but from a visual perspective it is quite stark, does the planning system offer enough protection to our protected buildings and architectural conservation areas and, in general, to heritage buildings that may not have official designation? It probably comes down to the enforcement section of planning. You can badly damage a protected structure quickly through construction work that can take a long time to restore and take a long time for enforcement to get the actions needed to restore it.

Does Dr. Moloney think the planning system protects our heritage buildings and protected structures?

Dr. Martina Moloney:

The planning system is very disparate and there are many different dimensions to it. I am conscious that a proposed review of planning in general is likely to commence. In general, the planning system provides a lot of protection to protected structures, in particular through the county development plan process and the identification of areas of conservation value.

The other area that possibly needs a bit of additional investment is education, to make sure that people understand the damage that they could potentially be doing. Sometimes, people with the best will in the world do something that they do not fully understand. It comes back to some of the points Ms Teehan made around the skill level and craftsmanship in this particular area. It is one of the initiatives that we hope to improve and to roll out to make sure that the people who engage in construction activity will have the right skills to develop it.

It would be worth our while perhaps to reflect on some of the challenging situations in which we found ourselves in recent years and to see where heritage was not as well protected, in particular in regard to buildings that are not on the record of protected structures. We can all think of a couple of examples of where there was a significant loss, which we wish had not happened. We must ask what needs to be done in those particular situations. Ms Teehan may wish to add something.

Ms Virginia Teehan:

I think the legislation is robust. There are challenges in its implementation. The conservation officers need additional support, in particular in larger areas. There is not a full complement of conservation officers across the country and it would be helpful if there were. We hope to support those conservation officers who are in office by providing additional funds for them next year. As Dr. Moloney says, a review of the planning legislation is pending and we will be anxious to see what the outcome of that will be, and to make it more efficient for the owners of both historic properties and protected structures.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the end of our questioning. Do the witnesses wish to ask us anything as a committee or to put anything on the record?

Dr. Martina Moloney:

Thank you very much, Chairman. We are very grateful to members for the opportunity to present before the committee today. The issues that have been raised with us by the committee include a standardised system for the identification of properties. We will take it and the other issues raised with us by committee members away with us.

We are here to support the work of the committee. We would be delighted to engage with it at any time. We are anxious to have the committee's support to promote heritage and, as part of that, to promote what we do as part of the overall landscape of heritage. One of the things I would like to thank the committee for today is giving us the level of exposure for this important area within its remit. I hope we can work together on that in future.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Moloney. I add my congratulations to those of the members. She has significant experience in local government as well and that is very important. She will have heard the great support for heritage and the work of the Heritage Council from committee members. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, will come before the committee in three weeks' time to give us an update on work he has been doing within his remit in the heritage sector and electoral reform. He has been a great champion of heritage over the years.

I noted some of the points that were made. Dr. Moloney can let us know how we can assist her with the communication plan to highlight the work of the Heritage Council. We would be very happy to assist her either in our work as public representatives or through the committee. I am sure the committee is in agreement on that.

It is important to get feedback on the issues raised by those who engage with the Heritage Council so we can learn how we can assist with any concerns. A standardised marking system for urban heritage trails would be a fantastic initiative if we could do it. That would be good for all.

Reference was made to the review of the planning system. The committee will engage in that and we would be interested in feeding the views of the Heritage Council into the process. I am not sure how the process will work but the heritage voice in the planning system needs to be very strong. I thank Dr. Moloney and Ms Teehan for being here today.